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Can't Take The Politics Out of Politics

06 Nov 2006 10:08 am

A Tyler Cowen correspondent wants to know what would happen, politically, "if everyone knew as much about economics" as Tyler does. Questions abound! "Would libertarianism remain a defensible political position?" Even better, "Would a moderate left-leaning position such as Matt Yglesias's suddenly become much more tenable?" More tenable compared to what, I wonder?

My instinct is that enhanced voter knowledge of economics wouldn't actually change things very much. Political decisions aren't made throught the deliberations of benevolent actors aiming to achieve an agreed-upon conception of the common good. Normative questions are highly contestable and highly contested. People who "know economics" disagree about a great deal, including economics. Most of all, though, interests matter politically. Consider, say, the example of trade.

This is an issue whose basic shape is deeply, deeply controversial among the unwashed masses, but where economists very broadly agree about the overall shape of things. Lower barriers to trade enhance overall economic growth. The additional wealth generated by reduced trade barriers is, however, distributed unevenly. Indeed, many people will see their personal economic situation deteriorate as a result of trade agreements. On the whole, however, wealth increases. It should be possible, therefore, to take some of the surplus away from the "winners" in trade and give it to the "losers," thus generating a Pareto-optimal change vis-à-vis the status quo wherein nobody loses and many people win.

That's the economic theory and as best I can nobody who understands economics disagrees with it.

As anyone who understands politics knows, however, this isn't actually how things work out. The would-be winners from some new trade agreement are, naturally, willing to bargain away some of their winnings in order to secure legislative approval of a favorable deal. They're not, however, especially interested in fully compensated they would-be losers. Rather, they want to make as many concessions as are necessary but no more than that. Meanwhile, potential losers typically project that they have better odds of just blocking the unfavorable policy change than they do of successfully lobbying for compensating benefits that will exceed the value of stopping the change.

This outcome doesn't really come about because the political agents "don't know economics." Yes, they sometimes say economically ignorant things to try to win the political fight. But the leaders of all the relevant groups are acting in exactly the way someone in that position who understood the economics perfectly would act. It's not a deficit of knowledge that prevents us from reaching more optimal resolutions of these conflicts of interests, it's deficits of trust and benevolence with the latter (as an economist would tell you!) being in particularly short supply. When you think about it, this is why more-or-less democratic forms of government are a pretty good idea. Voting and legislatures aren't a very good mechanism for generating knowledge, but they at least serve as peaceful mechanisms for resolving coflicts of interest, which are simply endemic in the policy arena.

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Comments (75)

Yup. I'll add that there's a great concrete example--a case study of the Doha Round-- by Clive Crook in the October 2006 Atlantic. You might want to check it out.

Couldn't one argue that the losers would be better-equipped to "successfully lobby[] for compensating benefits that will exceed the value of stopping the change" if they had the economic knowledge necessary to calculate that value? They don't know how much the winners are screwing them out of, but they know they're going to get screwed; it makes sense under that circumstance to block the agreement. If they know how much the screwage runs to, they can bargain.

I think if you run the game theory on that as well, the 'losers' have to present a credible threat of putting the kibosh on. One of the best ways to do that is to put on the kibosh.
The situation further deteriorates when obstensibly free trade deals are packaged with other provisions, generally those that favor the connected. Throw in some pubic choice theory and very few people are really negotiating from a situation that is well described by established economics.

What would happen if Libertarians knew more economics as opposed to the fatuous free-market uber-alles caricature that so many seem fond of?

What would happen if Libertarians knew more economics as opposed to the fatuous free-market uber-alles caricature that so many seem fond of?

Their heads would explode?

I think many people would change their positions if they knew more economics. Most people are sufficiently ignorant of economics that they really do think there is a such as thing as a free lunch. Case in point: my pro-life mother-in-law votes straight ticket Republican, but has never even heard the kind of case that the Tyler Cowens of the world make for free markets. For her it is not a case of balancing normative issues against lesser wealth, for her there are only the normative issues.


I think you err by looking at a single package of trade barriers. When every group that stands to benefit from trade barriers has gotten theirs enacted, the total is likely to make the majority worse off. A consensus for no trade barriers is likely to emerge.

The more widespread is economic knowledge, the more attractive I would expect libertarianism to be. I am a libertarian, which I am sure surprises no one at this point.

Economic knowledge wouldn't change people ethical intuitions regarding the distribution of income, so I would expect some redistribution from high-income to not-so-high income. The interaction of self-interest, ethical intuitions, and alliances might produce some surprising results. There's some discussion of this in Robert Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia. I think it remains an unsolved problem in game theory.

If people are going to use political alliances to enrich themselves at the expense of others, direct redistribution of cash is probably the most efficient way, in all senses of 'efficient'.

"They're not, however, especially interested in fully compensated they would-be losers. Rather, they want to make as many concessions as are necessary but no more than that. Meanwhile, potential losers typically project that they have better odds of just blocking the unfavorable policy change than they do of successfully lobbying for compensating benefits that will exceed the value of stopping the change."

That is where better understanding of economics would help. The problem is that you aren't understanding it well enough. In a successful economy it is actively bad to "fully compensate the would-be losers" for any long period of time. If someone anticipated a 20 year job in something that isn't economically efficient or useful at that price (say buggy-whip manufacturing) we shouldn't want to "fully compensate" them. The whole way that the economy works is by reducing incentives to do things that the economy doesn't want to bother with.

Want you ought to want is to help retool and retrain the people whose lives are disrupted by the well functioning economy--with the aim that they can do something useful. Helping them do something less useful is just bad economics, and the reason it is good politics is because people don't understand economics and they don't like to change even when neccessary.

"and they don't like to change even when neccessary."

Funny that.

> Helping them do something less useful is
> just bad economics, and the reason it is
> good politics is because people don't
> understand economics and they don't like
> to change even when

Anyone who has worked in a large corporate environment knows that while change is sometimes necessary, most change that is forced on them from "on high" ends up having a negative or counterproductive effect.

Cranky

Sebastian,
I think you think you are answering this, but really dodging the question. Even if all parties agree that retraining is the best way to compensate, the compensators will make as few concessions as necessary. I would also second my claim that public choice theory, broadly considered, has a big role here.

People don't like "change" when "change" means "never getting a raise, and watching our country become incapable of making anything but servants.

People don't disagree with our economic policy because they don't understand economics. They disagree with economic policies because they do understand economics. If this doesn't make much sense, just imagine yourself to be a 46 year old blue collar worker, and reread sebastians last few lines.

People don't want to be thought of by their government as "useful". They want to be thought of as "people". You know, with lives and children and dreams. "People", who have spent their lives doing something, don't want want to be told by some smug little economist that they are now useless. In the end, economics isn't a real science. As much as it likes to pretend to be, it never will be. It will always be a reflection of the bias of the elites in any given society.

What would happen if Libertarians knew more economics as opposed to the fatuous free-market uber-alles caricature that so many seem fond of?

Isn't that like asking "what if ignorant people were more well-informed"? If libertarians understood economics and not just Ayn Rand, they wouldn't be libertarians. You can't be a libertarian and educated in economics; kind of like how you can't be a creationist and know any science.

Yes, that's a slight overstatement. Perhaps it's more correct to say "you can't be informed, sane, honest, and a libertarian all at once."

"they don't like to change even when neccessary."

Look, before things changed, these people were not "losers". They sold their acquiescence to the changes in exchange for compensation that would, supposedly, keep them from being "losers" after the changes went into effect. The fact that this compensation now appears inadequate has led them to withdraw their acquiescence. See, no PhD in economics required.

Your concession that "[political agents] sometimes say economically ignorant things to try to win the political fight" undermines your whole argument. If economically ignorant statements can help win political fights, then economic ignorance must have some political significance.

> Even if all parties agree that retraining
> is the best way to compensate, the
> compensators will make as few concessions
> as necessary.

There is also a breathtakingly naive fundamental assumption that various economic parties are not acting deliberately to impose non-economic outcomes on other parties. I.e. cheating. There is an old saying that it is easy to make a million dollars if you start with a spare million; conversely it is easy to shove someone down into the dirt if he is already on his knees. The "iron laws of statistics" mean nothing in a poker game if one of the players has marked the cards and installed a camera in the ceiling - many Americans believe that is what is being done to them recently under cover of conservative economics.


Perhaps it's more correct to say "you can't be informed, sane, honest, and a libertarian all at once."

Would you like to support that with an argument on a specific point?

The definition of Libertarianism ranges from "would like to see the role of government reduced", all the way to full out support for Anarcho-Capitalism. Given the first definition, it is more accurate to say that "you can't be informed, same, honest, and non-libertarian all at once". Given the second, it's an open question.

>"Yes, that's a slight overstatement. Perhaps it's more correct
>to say "you can't be informed, sane, honest, and a libertarian
> all at once."

Oh my. That's funny, since:
a) I think the same thing about Republicans and Democrats.
b) Studies indicate that smarter people think more like economists
c) Economists are (in general) far more libertarian leaning than average. Even Brad DeLong holds a number of views which are contra-Democrat party dogma. He often rationalizes those away because he rightly feels so strongly that the Republicans in office are idiots.

For some reason I have a vision of a child, shaking his little first and shouting at the Sun: "You think you're bright? Well, you're wrong. I'm the one who's bright!"

"People don't want to be thought of by their government as "useful". They want to be thought of as "people". You know, with lives and children and dreams. "People", who have spent their lives doing something, don't want want to be told by some smug little economist that they are now useless."

They aren't being told by smug little economists that they are now useless. They are being told by YOU.

Every single time you have ever selected a less expensive product in favor of its more expensive cousin you have sent that signal. Every single time you have ever purchased something on the basis of quality you have sent that signal. Every time you choose NOT to buy something that you don't think you need, you have sent that signal. Every time you go to a store and fail to buy a buggy-whip YOU are helping put the buggy-whip manufacturers out of their jobs. How dare you! How can you be so unfeeling?

> They aren't being told by smug little
> economists that they are now useless.
> They are being told by YOU.

Big assumption there that our mercentile life is actually being directed by the Invisible Hand. Which requires the further assumption that no entity or group of entities has the power to channel the nation's mercentile life in ways it finds more congenial - no thumb on the scale so to speak. Say, toward centralization of economic wealth and power, toward pointier and pointer pyramid structures, towards winner-take-all.

The Constitution does not require that our nation be run to maximize wealth or find the Pareto optimum of large-scale consumption. Very deliberate decisions have been made by specific groups to force that way of thinking to the forefront. Worked great as long as the US controlled much of the world's easily-accessible natural resources. Not working so well now IMHO.

Cranky

Pareto optimality is also amoral. If Acme Co. is polluting a river, killing fish and hurting the profits of a downstream seafood company, Pareto-happy Ronald Coase would have the seafood company pay Acme to reduce its pollution, optimizing per Pareto.

You hear this sort of stuff sometimes with Libertarians talk about the environment. But it holds for all manner of human interation, and is equally amoral.

"The Constitution does not require that our nation be run to maximize wealth or find the Pareto optimum of large-scale consumption."

The Constitution also doesen;t require that we maximize our lesirue time, and make sure we have fun things to do on the weekeneds. But overtime those seem to be choices the majority of us have seen as being to our benefit.

"The interaction of self-interest, ethical intuitions, and alliances might produce some surprising results."

This makes as much sense as most libertarian aphorisms (i.e. none). Everything from the spanish inquisition to the U.S. constitution resulted from interactions of self-interest, ethical intuitions, and alliances. The only surprises resulting from the grand libertarian experiment would be precisely which historical episodes replay themselves and whether it would be as tragedy or farce.

The libertarian free market fetishism stems from a core fallacious assumption that lies at the heart of both economics and libertarianism. Namely they both posit the existence of rational actors whose primary goal is the maximization of utility. Conclusions derived from this premise can occasionally, with adequate Rube Goldberg-like caveats and addenda, have something useful to say. Behavioral and ecological economics, with their emphasis on empirical feedback concerning how people and other complex systems actually behave, are steps in the right direction. Such projects can mesh with economics because of its desire to be seen as a science, but libertarianism, as an ideology, loses coherence as it accomodates reality.

As Thomas Kuhn might put it, libertarianism has accreted so many anomalous exceptions that a pradigm shift is desperately called for.

Sebastian--you're completely missing the point. The argument that maximizing long-term aggregate wealth should trump distributional considerations is a normative, not an empirical, judgment. And, moreover, for people who are losers in economic changes more detailed economic knowledge would make them more rather than less likely to support linertarian policies unless they're entirely irrational.

Shorter Cranky (who's spot on): It's not the economy, stupid, it's the power.

It's not a deficit of knowledge that prevents us from reaching more optimal resolutions of these conflicts of interests, it's deficits of trust and benevolence with the latter (as an economist would tell you!) being in particularly short supply.

I find this an extremely insightful sentence, though I'm not sure I'd agree that benevolence is more important than trust. Meaning, if someone came forward and managed to convince everyone absolutely that he or she would guarantee Pareto-optimal change, I think that person would actually have a good chance of victory. I mean, if it were as simple as there being a box to check on your ballot labelled "Pareto-optimal change", and everyone understood what that meant, would it really be rejected?

"Big assumption there that our mercentile life is actually being directed by the Invisible Hand. Which requires the further assumption that no entity or group of entities has the power to channel the nation's mercentile life in ways it finds more congenial - no thumb on the scale so to speak."

Sounds to me like you don't want to take personal responsibility for your part in it. Are you shopping based on price because some shadowy entities are channeling you? Are you shopping for quality because some shadowy entities are channeling you? Are you failing to buy buggy-whips because some shadowy entities are channeling you?

No.

You shop for price and quality because you are a reasonably prudent person. You don't buy buggy whips because you don't need them. People exactly like you put the buggy-whip manufacturer out of a job. It wasn't a shadowy conspiracy that can make you feel better by pretending it was out of your hands. It was people exactly like you making choices exactly like you do.

The definition of Libertarianism ranges from "would like to see the role of government reduced"

Even the Marxists imagined that under their proposals the state would eventually whither away. This definition is way too broad--I mean, of course it would be a good thing if coercion of human beings was never necessary. But then who will be there to force people not to coerce each other?

> The Constitution also doesen;t require that
> we maximize our lesirue time, and make sure
> we have fun things to do on the weekeneds.
> But overtime those seem to be choices the
> majority of us have seen as being to our benefit.

I must be missing something; as far as I can see the cult of consumption over the last 30 years has had the (probably not unintended) effect of _reducing_ our leisure time and allowing use _fewer_ enjoyable experiences on the 1/2 day of the weekend that remains to us.

Cranky

Note that I am not arguing for a return to 1820s hardscrabble.

Sebastian, suppose you and your friends are about to play the board game of Monopoly. Your friends, for some reason (hey, don't ask me to explain your friends), all want to change the rules so that you make $250 instead of $200 for passing Go. You think this is a bad rule change, but you are overruled by majority vote.

When you pass Go, you ask for your $250, but your friends complain that since you only wanted to have the rules give you $200, you should get only $200.

That is, of course, absurd. We play the game as best we can with the rules as they are. I make my purchases and sales to benefit me. I make my votes to benefit the country.

You aren't required to make your purchases and sales benefit yourself. You choose to do that. No cabal makes you do it. No conspiracy channels into you to force you to do it. No rules make you do it. You don't it because you are a reasonably prudent person when you are spending your own money. Perhaps not so much when spending other people's momey.

When 200 million reasonably prudent people and 90 million unreasonably imprudent people decide not buy buggy-whips, that puts buggy-whip manufacturers out of a job (buggy-whip making). They are not kept from finding and taking other jobs. We would do well to encourage them to do so.

This isn't anything to apologize for. Buggy-whip manufacturers WERE in the past doing something useful for the economy but NOW are not. We shouldn't blame people for choosing not to buy buggy-whips. We shouldn't encourage them to buy buggy-whips just so the manufacturer can keep operating.

Look. Lots of people don't like change. My basic temperament is conservative--I don't like change. That doesn't mean you should continue to pay me a premium just so I can avoid change.

Can we drop the buggy-whip examples please? No one is questioning the existence of gross technological change. Buggy-whip examples do exactly zero to explain the hundreds of billions of dollars spent on advertising and marketing every year in the United States, to take just one unexplained phenomena.

Unless you are with the tobacco companies that marketing and advertising do not affect their sales in any way?

Cranky

Sebastion writes: "In a successful economy it is actively bad to "fully compensate the would-be losers" for any long period of time. If someone anticipated a 20 year job in something that isn't economically efficient or useful at that price (say buggy-whip manufacturing) we shouldn't want to "fully compensate" them. The whole way that the economy works is by reducing incentives to do things that the economy doesn't want to bother with."

This is, in fact, the position taken in many economics texts, in the chapters that don't discuss free trade. In the free trade chapters, they say that trade is good, and that societies would be better off relaxing trade barriers and compensating the losers through transfer payments (whether those are simple transfers or transfers of intellectual property such as skills is of no economic import--besides, who says the government is better suited to make those choices than individuals). In the chapters on tax and distribution policy, they say that transfer payments reduce economic efficiency and should be avoided.

That results in a nice political agenda, doesn't it? On the one hand, you can point to economists to say that trade is good, and that it *can* benefit everyone. On the other, you ca point to economists to prevent the very actions needed to make the benefits general. If you're the World Bank, you can even demand that trade be opened and transfer payments cut as a condition for the same loan!

Sebastian,

Your argument is totally irrelevant to Matthew's point, unless you think that the Buggy Manufacturers Association would be convinced by it.

He's making the standard public-choice claim that normative economics can have no effect on the results of the political process. You're responding oddly by putting forward a normative economic argument.

Cranky,

Leasure time has increased greatly over the last 30 yrs. This paper is a representative example - it's a well-documented phenomenon.

Pithlord, you aren't correct in your summary. Matthew is saying that a better understanding of economics wouldn't help. Considering the astounding lack of basic economic understanding among people even here--it seems to me that the lack of economic understanding is driving the politics.

It is better for the steel-worker that the textile factory, computer factory, agricultural industry, building industry, consumer electronics industry and Walmart are all put under pressure to bring things to market at cheaper prices and better quality.

It is better for the the WalMart employee that the steel factory, textile factory, computer factory, agricultural industry, building industry, and consumer electronics industry are all put under pressure to bring things to market at cheaper prices and better quality.

In short it is better for the economy that everyone is put under pressure to bring things to market at cheaper prices and with better quality and/or create new things that people might want.

The fact that even very intelligent people here choose not to deal with the ramifications of that basic fact is an educational problem with political ramifications.

Cranky, "Can we drop the buggy-whip examples please? No one is questioning the existence of gross technological change. Buggy-whip examples do exactly zero to explain the hundreds of billions of dollars spent on advertising and marketing every year in the United States, to take just one unexplained phenomena."

No we can't because it is merely an example of choice-making with ramifications that you aren't accepting.

First, people make choices. When enough people make the choice not to buy something, the manufacturer loses his job. You constantly invoke "advertising and marketing" as an excuse to avoid the analysis. Precisely how much "advertising and marketing" do you believe would it take to allow buggy-whips to return to their former sales glory?

Second, the choices people make are multi-dimensional and weighted. Common dimensions include price, quality, utility, ease-of-use, status and safety. The weight people attach to each is different for different people. Choosing on the basis of a low price is making the same kind of choice as realizing you don't need a buggy-whip. It has the same effect--it makes it difficult for the non-favored price point seller to keep a job.

Free trade tends to allow prices for similar items to drop considerably. This tends to allow for more specialization in quality, utility, ease-of-use, status and safety. This is a very good thing for the purchasers of such products. The problem comes for the cheapest, lowest general quality manufacturers. They can't compete on any of the dimensions. They tend to lose their jobs at that point. If they work somewhere else (somewhere more useful) that is great for the economy. If they don't work, that isn't so great. So good economic understanding would tend to lead people to support free trade while also supporting systems which would help getting people to work at more useful jobs whose work on low-utility production was exposed by free trade.

The fact that American auto companies made low quality cars wasn't created by free trade, it was exposed by free trade.

Either people make rational economic decisions or they don't. SH says that people make decisions based on many factors. An entirely different kettle of fish. Irrationality is obviously one of those factors or the people buying advertising are throwing away their money. They may be, but that would also be irrational.

Just within the constraints of the "standard model":

1) the vast majority of human beings are satisficers, not optimizers
2) even the optimizers have limited time for information-gathering and decision-making
3) much information is hidden from ordinary decision makers (e.g. JD Powers' _real_ auto quality assessments are not released to consumers)
4) even available information has a cost, often a very high cost (you actually can buy JD Powers reports - at a quarter million dollars per report)
5) human preferences are not transitive [1]

and I can come up with a dozen more if you like. There is of course an epicycle to cover every one of these flaws in the "optimization of U" model, but eventually any reasonable observer things the wheels have come off.

Then there are the structural issues such as large-scale infrastructure requirements and the associated decisions. You can argue if you wish that 1 million or so people "just decided" to move to western Cook County Illinois in the 1970-1980 time frame. And hey, maybe they did prefer it. Problem is, the infrastructure to support that move was built in the 1965-1970 time period, using taxes that can only have come from the areas that lost population as a result of the migration. Who made the decision to build that infrastructure? It didn't come from nowhere, and I am pretty sure it was not decided upon by the people who became losers as a result. Nor did any individual citizen have any real say over what was happening. But oddly enough big real estate developers did.

What's the use. The pure economics fanatics just can't process any information that contradicts their standard model, being reduced to ad hominin attacks.

Cranky

[1] Yeah, I know about the money pump. You ever know anyone who got taken by a money pump as a result of their intransitive preferences? Me either. I imagine there are a few, whom we call "marks", but not many.

DMonteith,

Much ink is spilled over the "rational actors" assumption, but a) it's a simplifying assumption and can be replaced with more complicated models of behavior when the situation calls for it b) it holds pretty well in most cases (people will buy the cheaper of two perfect substitutes the overwhelming majority of the time, firms will raise prices if they think the decrease in sales will be offset by the higher profits, etc), so unless you have a reason to believe it won't be applicable (normally some observed cognitive bias like endowment c)it's not even the weakest assumption that goes into your basic neoclassical micro model - asymetric information and transaction costs are far more likely to muck up a model. The basic neoclassical micro model should be treated like the ideal gas law - there is no system which it 100% accurately describes, but it will typically give you qualitatively correct results for changes in the variables it does include, you can model a lot of more complicated situations by building more complicated models based on it. The fact that the results are typically qualitatively correct does make it useful for policy analysis and suitable in cases where there isn't an argument against applying it to a particular case, such as the expectation that a known cognitive bias may be in play.

The problem, Cranky is that the political process shares precisely the same characteristic problems:

1) Politically people are satisficers not optimisers.

2) Politically even the optimisiers have limited time to gather research.

3) Politically much information is hidden.

4) Even available information has a cost

5) Politically human preferences are not transitive.

But number six is more prominent in politics:

6) People are more careful to wisely spend their own money than they are with everyone else's.

Notice I don't say "people wisely spend their own money". I say that "people are MORE careful to wisely spend their own money THAN they are with everyone else's".

So even if your criticism of the market is true, it seems to me that you are complaining about human beings--the same human beings who make decisions in non-market settings.

Furthermore, I don't buy your constant appeal to advertising as a way to short-circuit the discussion. First, you may have noticed that political advertising exists. Arguably pork projects should be considered political advertising. Second, advertising works to raise awareness or create distinction on one of many dimensions that people use to make decisions. I tend to make decisions largely on price. That doesn't mean that people who make decisions on quality or ease-of-use should be considered idiots nor that manufacturers who want to distinguish their goods on the basis of quality or ease-of-use should be considered bad. The fact that I tend to use ads for price distinction doesn't mean that information on quality or ease-of-use is wasted on everyone.

I suspect your complaint comes from advertising based on choice dimensions you aren't thrilled about--perhaps status. I don't use those either, but for those who choose on status it seems to be an important dimension. But even that doesn't make it the shadowy cabal that you invoke to close off discussion.

You seem to be attacking the human ability to make reasonable choices. If you are correct, you argument appears to prove too much.

If we're talking about voters and free trade, the issue is not just that some people are hurt by free trade. The bigger issue is that mainstream economic models predict that free trade will reduce the wages of lower-skilled workers. That's the difference between technological change and trade: Technological change can cut both ways in terms of inequality, whereas the unambiguous impact of trade is losses for the worst-positioned and benefits for the already well-off. So there is no reason to believe that gaining knowledge of economics would lead a majority of voters to support pro-free-trade candidates .

> Furthermore, I don't buy your constant appeal
> to advertising as a way to short-circuit the discussion.

This is the second time you have said that. I mentioned advertising exactly once in the course of this discussion. Since you (incorrectly IMHO) rejected that line of argument out of hand, I then moved closer to your turf in subsequent posts. Why do you keep replying to an argument I advanced once and not again, particularly by using words such as "constant appeal"?

Thanks for clarifying that.

Cranky

I wrote:

"They aren't being told by smug little economists that they are now useless. They are being told by YOU.

Every single time you have ever selected a less expensive product in favor of its more expensive cousin you have sent that signal. Every single time you have ever purchased something on the basis of quality you have sent that signal. Every time you choose NOT to buy something that you don't think you need, you have sent that signal. Every time you go to a store and fail to buy a buggy-whip YOU are helping put the buggy-whip manufacturers out of their jobs. How dare you! How can you be so unfeeling?"

You responded:

"Big assumption there that our mercentile life is actually being directed by the Invisible Hand. Which requires the further assumption that no entity or group of entities has the power to channel the nation's mercentile life in ways it finds more congenial - no thumb on the scale so to speak. Say, toward centralization of economic wealth and power, toward pointier and pointer pyramid structures, towards winner-take-all."

When you say "channel the nation's mercantile life" I presumed you were invoking advertising since I was talking about how you choose what you buy. It is possible that you were talking about some other method of 'forcing' you to buy things, but I'm unaware of what that would be.

A shadowy cabal doesn't explain why millions of Americans purchased Japanese cars. Price and quality does.

Jeffery Davis,

There are various models of what advertising actually does, many of which have consumers being rational actors as well, and the actual impacts of advertising are quite diverse. For example, one function is simply to convey price and product information - gathering information takes time, so a consumer may rationally decline to invest additional time finding information not presented to them if they think the expected benefit from potentially picking a better product is less than the cost of gathering the product info. This is especially true for pricing info, which changes rapidly; grocery store ad inserts in the paper are an excellent example of advertising that is mainly informational, since they are easily skipped (unlike commercials) and focus on pricing and product info.

Some adds also exploit known cognitive biases (ex Ads for food display the food products because looking at food makes people hungry.) or exploit the simplified decision making heuristics people use (For example, a heuristic that may be in use is that in order to buy high-price ads, a company will typically need to be at least modestly successful, which in turn will typically mean they produce at least a decent product.) There are also odd effects where the individual actors are rational, but the resulting behavior seems irrational in the big picture, like raising the value of status symbols by making their status symbolism more widely known via advertising to people who will are not likely to buy them - this is rational for the producer and consumer of status symbols, where the question is whether seeking status symbols is rational, not whether advertising for them is.

Simply put, while consumers aren't 100% rational, 100% rationality wouldn't be contingent on advertising being useless.

> Cranky said:
> Which requires the further assumption that
> no entity or group of entities has the power
> to channel the nation's mercentile life in ways
> it finds more congenial - no thumb on the scale
> so to speak.

Now I am really puzzled because that statement seems quite clear and has nothing to do with advertising. Andrew Carnegie did great work in improving the efficiency of steel mills and was a key factor in making the Industrial Age possible. How did he finance those steel mills? From insider stock trading based on tips (and flat-out theft of information). He was in a position to receive those tips cuz the previous generation of Captains of Industry he was working for liked him personally and thought he deserved to make a few dozen million (= hundreds of million today).

Did Carnegie participate in classical economic activity to the betterment of all? Yes. Were there other, non-economic, scale-tipping factors involved in deciding both what the outcomes would be and who would benefit? You bet your bippy. Perhaps it would have been more economically efficient to build the steel mills in the UP rather than Pittsburg, since coal is lighter than iron ore. Once Carnegie got the inside tips the possibility of a steel industry developing in Upper Michigan was gone forever. And not for any reason that could be analyzed with a standard microeconomic model.

Cranky

"So there is no reason to believe that gaining knowledge of economics would lead a majority of voters to support pro-free-trade candidates."

Isn't this proven untrue by the fact that the people most likely to support liberalized trade are those who have the strongest foundation in economics?

The biggest advocates of a more liberalized trade regime have been the economists themselves, who judge it to be good, and protectionism to be bad. The biggest opposition comes from those who directly fear the competition of overseas labor.

Wow, Sebastian reached into his Libertopian Straw Man Kit and pulled out... the buggy whip! Goddamn, I haven't read a good buggy whip straw man in, literally, *months!* Makes me misty-eyed!

Of course, since no one here is suggesting that jobs should be protected in obsolete industries, and there is a big, glaring category error being made when obsolescence is conflated with relocalization, the argument wasn't well played. But I do think he should get some bonus points for nostalgia value.

If a product is no longer desired, then maintaining production in order to preserve a job is an entirely irrational act with no market value whatsoever. If the product is highly desired, but it's possible to be produced more cheaply elsewhere, then there is a trade-off to be made. A rational actor will choose to spend as little as possible with his individual purchases. But a rational actor will also not vote for a political platform that leads to himself receiving lower wages without being compensated for his loss. The positive macroeconomic outcome is at odds with the positive microeconomic outcome.

Thus, the extreme popularity of low, low prices and the extreme unpopularity of free trade policies whenever and wherever they are put up for a vote.

Any rational economist ought to take both the broad gains and narrow harms into account, and strive to strike a balance between the two, rather than dogmatically pimping for unfettered trade.

Unsurprisingly, an economy operating at "maximum efficiency" by current standards entails higher profits for those who own shares in the means of production, lower wages for those who don't, lower prices for goods which can be produced cheaply overseas, higher relative prices for services that cannot be produced cheaply overseas, such as education, housing, and health care, and higher relative prices for resources which are extracted in static locations. Which is pretty much exactly the changes we've seen over the past few years. Throw in some idle chatter about investing some of the newfound profits into retraining and retooling that always seems to get trumped by the economists' desire for lower taxes and less government, and you basically have today's economic dogma.

In other words, a long, slow path back to pre-world war II distributions of wealth.

Now, please explain EXACTLY why a blue-collar worker should be considered oh-so-ignorant of economics for failing to appreciate the brilliance of this?

> The biggest advocates of a more liberalized trade
> regime have been the economists themselves, who
> judge it to be good, and protectionism to be bad.
> The biggest opposition comes from those who directly
> fear the competition of overseas labor.

Make that "economics professors with tenure and/or high-paying government jobs". The quickest way to get a comment deleted over at Brad DeLong's (excellent) site is to question the institution of tenure.

With foreign-student enrollment dropping so rapidly at US universities since 9/11, one wonders if even economics professors will be looking over their shoulders soon...

Cranky

Yucca,

You don't seem to get the Coase Theorem. The allocation of the pollution rights to the river could initially be to the fishing company, which the factory would them buy them from, or to some 3rd party who would negotiated with them both - the Coase Theorem treats initial allocations of rights as exogenous. When the transaction costs are small, as they would be in a case where the only interested parties were the fishing company and the factory, the initial allocation doesn't have a significant impact on the amount of pollution that will occur in the river, just on who ends up paying who. On the other hand, when the transaction costs are large, which is more likely to be the case when the interested parties are numerous and disorganized, the initial allocation of rights matters, and the equilibrium will favor whoever holds the rights initially exercising them rather than selling – if transaction costs were high in the case you outlined above where the factory starts with all of the pollution rights, then you’d get more pollution than is pareto efficient, but if the fishing company starts with the rights, you'll get less. Alternately, you can allocate the rights initially to the gov't and auction them off. After the initial allocation, it doesn't really matter that much, because once the equilibrium shifts the distribution of rights at that point serves as the initial distribution for the new agreements.

It's always suprised me that people interested in the enviroment don't pay more attention to Coase Theorem-based solutions, since they're very resistant to regulator capture compared to mandates, and it allows individuals reduce pollution outside of the political process (particularly useful for highly motivated minority when the majority is apathetic to their concerns) by buying up pollution rights.

Isn't this proven untrue by the fact that the people most likely to support liberalized trade are those who have the strongest foundation in economics?

The biggest advocates of a more liberalized trade regime have been the economists themselves, who judge it to be good, and protectionism to be bad.

Yes, but that doesn't disprove my point. Economists, as high-skilled workers, are not hurt by the effects of free trade and indeed benefit from it. However those voters who are less-skilled workers are hurt by free trade (at least according to Heckscher-Ohlin theory). Again, if we make the assumption that individuals vote in their economic self-interest, we can predict that education in economics would make less-skilled workers less likely to vote against supporters of free trade.

I think better questions would be:

"If all economists understood human behavior and social psychology, what would happen to the field?"

"If everyone understood human behavior and social psychology, what would happen politically?"

"Of course, since no one here is suggesting that jobs should be protected in obsolete industries, and there is a big, glaring category error being made when obsolescence is conflated with relocalization, the argument wasn't well played. But I do think he should get some bonus points for nostalgia value.

If a product is no longer desired, then maintaining production in order to preserve a job is an entirely irrational act with no market value whatsoever. If the product is highly desired, but it's possible to be produced more cheaply elsewhere, then there is a trade-off to be made. A rational actor will choose to spend as little as possible with his individual purchases. But a rational actor will also not vote for a political platform that leads to himself receiving lower wages without being compensated for his loss. The positive macroeconomic outcome is at odds with the positive microeconomic outcome."

When Japanese cars almost drove the US car makers into oblivion, they did so because they offered better quality and better price. It was regularly suggested that it would be better for America if we were 'protected' from low-priced (not cheap) Japanese cars. The competition from Japanese automakers was instrumental in creating the higher quality automobile market we have today. It was also instrumental in creating the low-price market which is available today. Neither of these markets were as well served without Japanese competition. US car buyers were better off because of it. This is true EVEN THOUGH Japan never really opened up their car market.

The buggy-whip is important to understand because it is merely more obvious than other cases. You claim: "Of course, since no one here is suggesting that jobs should be protected in obsolete industries, and there is a big, glaring category error being made when obsolescence is conflated with relocalization, the argument wasn't well played." I only wish you were correct. GM's lack of quality and high price was not created by Japanese competition. It was revealed by Japanese competition. There isn't obsolescence until the better product is brought to market. Protectionist trade policies are all about keeping the better product from coming to market and restricting the choice dimensions that consumers can utilize so as to keep the obsolescence from being revealed.

You aren't required to make your purchases and sales benefit yourself. You choose to do that. No cabal makes you do it. No conspiracy channels into you to force you to do it. No rules make you do it.

That's true, and no conspiracy, no cabal, no rules force you to take $250 for passing Go instead of $200, in my example. So if you think the rule should be 200 and everyone else thinks the rule should be 250, then you should only take 200 while everyone else takes 250.

Do you see now? There's a big difference between changing the arbitrary rules of the game and choosing a single action for yourself within the game.

I mean, while I tend to agree with Matt that greater economic knowledge wouldn't dramatically change politics, in your case your opinions might change dramatically if you could grasp the Voter's Paradox. There's a lot of situations in which I am better off if everyone--including me--is forced into a particular action, yet each individual has an incentive to dodge the enforcement.

"Again, if we make the assumption that individuals vote in their economic self-interest, we can predict that education in economics would make less-skilled workers less likely to vote against supporters of free trade."

That depends upon how it works. On the consumer side, free trade is better than protectionism, full stop. Workers are also consumers.

Economically we don't want to mitigate the 'hurt' of free trade as low value work is exposed. We want those jobs to go away. But they can't productively contribute to the economy by not working, so good economic sense is to help the find something useful that they can do. As it always has in US history, this might involve acquiring new skills or moving to a better location.

I definitely like Bob's questions better.

I'd even pop up a third one "If anyone understood human behavior and social psychology, what would happen politically?"

"Yes, but that doesn't disprove my point. Economists, as high-skilled workers, are not hurt by the effects of free trade and indeed benefit from it. However those voters who are less-skilled workers are hurt by free trade"

Does the average stock economics professor employed by an anonymous state university really benefit from liberalized trade that much? As a group, economists as a percentage, support liberalized trade moreso than even many groups who would more directly benefit from it. It's obvious that they support liberalized trade measures because they judge it to be a net benefit and a greater good. However, most of those who oppose trade, do so because any measure to liberalize trade may affect them directly.

"Do you see now? There's a big difference between changing the arbitrary rules of the game and choosing a single action for yourself within the game."

No I don't see. There is a big difference between changing the arbitrary rules of the game for everyone and changing them for just one person. You are proposing a situation where there are really three votes All $200, All $250 except $200 for me, All $250. In Monopoly, the differing amounts don't matter to the functioning of the game at all so long as you all get the same amount at GO. In economics, paying everyone the same amount no matter what they do undermines the whole point of bothering with an economy. Differential pricing is how an economy works. If the government changed the rules such that ballpoint pens and Rolls Royce cars had to be priced exactly the same, you would either have a lot fewer pens or zero Rolls Royce cars.

In an economy, if you don't buy someone's stuff (for a large enough value of 'you') they won't stay in business. That is a good thing, because if no 'you' wants their stuff, they are wasting time making useless stuff.

You could choose to support someone's useless stuff by buying it. You choose not to. If fault is to be assigned for the fact that no one is buying the stuff, it is assigned to you as much as it is to me. Now I believe there is not fault to that choice. You apparently disagree. You want to assign fault, but you don't seem to see that to the extent there is fault, the fault is yours and people who shop like you.

"Couldn't one argue that the losers would be better-equipped to "successfully lobby[] for compensating benefits that will exceed the value of stopping the change" if they had the economic knowledge necessary to calculate that value?"

A really important point here is that economics is woefully underequipped to calculate the actual value of total net efficiency gains that occur from recommended policy changes. Methods exist, but they are incredibly approximate and inaccurate. Even getting within one or two orders of magnitude is hard. So, for instance, I believe that there were efficiency gains from NAFTA, but they are quite small. Given the uncertainty over the size of the efficiency gains, combined with the various externalities associated with reallocation, and uncertainty about distribution, there is a ton of room for even the best-informed economists to quarrel about whether something is worthwhile or not.

I'm actually (for once), inclining toward Sebastian on a lot of these arguments. But it is a real point against him that labor arbitrage is a very different phenomenon than replacement of an obsolete industry or technology. (In a lot of cases now we are seeing the replacement of more advanced manufacturing technologies by more primitive ones using cheaper labor). Also, labor arbitrage is underpinned by differences in currency valuation (e.g. the undervalued Chinese yuan). And the international currency market is government-manipulated to the core. How many manufacturing jobs would still be here if the Chinese government didn't fix the value of their currency at a below-market level?

Sebastian-

Yes, it's true that if one limits the discussion entirely to the auto industry, where foreign products are demonstrably superior and American workers are overpaid by any reasonable measure, then free trade dogma and the ol' buggy whip tale contain a kernel of truth. Yet the long, slow demise of the auto industry and the steel industry have long since passed the tipping point.

Far more common these days are cases where the domestic product is generally equal to or superior to the product created in the maquiladora factory across the border or the Chinese sweatshop, yet it simply costs more to produce locally.

It is, I hold, a category error to conflate the current shifts in our economy with obsolescence resulting from competition on a level playing field. These are jobs which do not need to be lost merely to satisfy the demands of progress, and those who profit from the changes should be expected to pay more than lip service toward distributing the economic gains from these policies to the losers and accepting occasional trade-offs for the sake of maintaining a high standard of living... which (as Henry Ford long ago noted) is what drives the demand side of the economy.

Does the average stock economics professor employed by an anonymous state university really benefit from liberalized trade that much?

Yes, because he benefits from the low, low Wal-Mart prices, while not supplying the sort of good we expect to be outsourced.

That depends upon how it works. On the consumer side, free trade is better than protectionism, full stop. Workers are also consumers.

Yes, but for lower-skilled workers, the gains in lower prices are outweighed by the reductions in wages.

No I don't see. There is a big difference between changing the arbitrary rules of the game for everyone and changing them for just one person. You are proposing a situation where there are really three votes All $200, All $250 except $200 for me, All $250.

You really don't see. I proposed nothing of the sort. I proposed two options--everyone take up to $200, or everyone take up to $250. If you wanted to play $250, but you wanted to play $200, and you were overruled, you'd still play $250 like everyone else if you were rational.

But if all your friends used this as evidence that they were right to set the rules at $250, that would be just as absurd as you are being now. So you really don't see. Setting the rules for a game is totally different from making a move within the game. Purchasing a product is like the latter, making a vote is like the former. And you just can't see that totally, ridiculously obvious difference.

If you wanted to play $250, but you wanted to play $200

I meant if everyone else wanted to play with taking $250 at Go, while you wanted to play with everyone taking $200...

"Yes, it's true that if one limits the discussion entirely to the auto industry, where foreign products are demonstrably superior and American workers are overpaid by any reasonable measure, then free trade dogma and the ol' buggy whip tale contain a kernel of truth. Yet the long, slow demise of the auto industry and the steel industry have long since passed the tipping point."

American auto workers are (and especially were) overpaid by any reasonable measure? I completely agree, but it seems to me that much of the lefty nostalgia about unions focuses on these obviously overpaid auto and steel workers. It was obvious AFTER competition. It was very much a live issue before that.

"Far more common these days are cases where the domestic product is generally equal to or superior to the product created in the maquiladora factory across the border or the Chinese sweatshop, yet it simply costs more to produce locally."

I presume you mean "higher quality" when you say "equal to or superior...yet it simply costs more to produce locally". It is an important fact that buyers choose along multiple choice dimensions--quality and price not being the same choice dimension.

Equal quality with a much higher price is in fact a worse overall product if it doesn't make up on some other choice dimension (perhaps status).

Higher quality with higher price can be differentiated for those who want higher quality and value that choice dimension higher than price.

Equal quality with a slightly higher price can survive with a "buy American" appeal to a patriotism choice dimension (which I don't value at all when buying products, but many other people do though I suspect they don't value it highly compared to price--a large difference in price will usually overcome it).

It is an interesting fact that conservatives who overplay patriotism in other areas often downplay it on trade while liberals who are deeply suspicious of patriotism in other areas embrace it without blinking on trade.

"Purchasing a product is like the latter, making a vote is like the former."

The problem is that you seem to think the Monopoly analogy has anything whatsoever to do with actual economics. We pay differentially. If you don't, you don't have an economy. If we really paid everyone the same for "just passing GO" our economy wouldn't function. It isn't just a game with arbitrary rules. Prices aren't arbitrary. Setting them by fiat is a great way to ruin your economy. You can't set the price of a ballpoint pen and a Rolls Royce at the same level and expect both to be produced.

The purchases an individual makes are much more influential on the economy than anything else he does (with the exception of raising children). MUCH more influential. Far more than voting. Every single time you choose to purchase along the price dimension, you send a signal that higher priced people producing similar products aren't worth it. Every single time you choose to purchase a more expensive item with higher quality you signal reinforce the idea that quality is valued in that product. Every single time you buy a higher priced, same-quality item with a designer label you signal that status is worth paying for. Unless you are voting for someone really atrocious (like an actual non-strawman price dictating Communist) your price decisions are vastly more influential on the economy than your votes.

Wow ... a whole discussion jumping off from the topic of whether Pareto optimal distribution of resources can be reached, e.g., by government action (of course, Pareto would say rather government action is futile in preventing the obtainance of such a distribution no matter how unfair such a distribution may be ... of course, liberals like me say government action is needed to prevent such a distribution of resources from occuring and in general to prevent economic equilibria that would cause us to be stuck in a rut of neo-feudalism ... which brings me to my point), without mention of the Liberal Paradox?

The fact of the matter is that democratic governance and Pareto optimality are often at odds. And this is not a bug but a feature: Pareto optimal distributions of resources are often, er, unfair. That people, acting in their own interests, would use government to try to perturb the system away from a problematic equilibrium is not a bad thing. That those benefiting from problematic equilibria have convinced the masses (using fear of gay married terrorists having abortions or some such) to vote against their own interests is a bad thing. At the very least, if it's a good thing for people to vote against their interests, what does that say about the theory of rational self-interest anyway?

More proof, AFAIC, that the pseudo-economics that people who claim "I know economic and if people knew economics like I knew economics, they'd vote differently" claim to know when they claim to know economics, is built as a house of cards (reference to gambling intended ...).

The problem is that you seem to think the Monopoly analogy has anything whatsoever to do with actual economics.

The problem is that you're taking the Monopoly analogy too far, but not applying it where you should. I am NOT saying prices should fixed. I'm not saying anything about prices. I'm just saying that setting rules in a game is different from choosing actions in the game. Different in that our motivations are totally different. If you object before the game starts that people should only take $200 for crossing Go, you don't care about whether this means you make more money or not, you only care about the abstract purity of the game. But when it comes time to actually pass Go, you no longer care about that, you only want to maximize your own income.

My decisions in the ballot box have completely different motivations than my decisions in the marketplace. And there is nothing irrational about that whatsoever.

The purchases an individual makes are much more influential on the economy than anything else he does (with the exception of raising children). MUCH more influential. Far more than voting.

True. My decisions in the marketplace influence the economy (and perhaps even our foreign policy) much more than my decisions in the voting booth.

The problem is that my marketplace decisions have a much GREATER impact on my own personal selfish well-being. So I stop caring about what benefits the nation and only care about what benefits me. Thus the well known public goods problem.

DAS,

The set of Pareto efficient distributions includes distributions with any conception of distributive justice you'd like. Some would be considered very unfair (one person owning everything, for example, is pareto efficient) and some are highly egaltarian (the distribution that would result if everybody had the same initial bundle and was allowed to trade in an idealized market (zero transaction costs, full information)). By definition, there is always some pareto efficient distribution that everybody would prefer to any given non-pareto efficient distribution.

For what it's worth, George Stigler supposedly believed that everyone already understands economics and takes his position based on self-interest. He used to make fun of Milton Friedman's public education efforts, calling him an "actionist."

On this free trade thing, for those who don't like Sebastian's technological progress and managerial superiority examples, how about geographical competition within the US? All those textile mills in the South that we're supposed to feel bad about put New England mills out of business long ago. (The New England mills probably clobbered some British mills even earlier.) Domestic minimills caused most of the damage to the traditional steel industry, and they shifted the locus of production from a couple of spots with cheap coal and access to water and railroad to a distributed network ranging across the country.

Sebastian is correct: those who don't like free trade don't like economic dynamism in general, which means they don't like a rising median standard of living if it causes some groups to suffer losses. That's why the same people who don't like free trade don't like Wal*Mart, about as domestic a source of change as you can imagine.