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The Other Other Vietnam Syndrome

13 Nov 2006 10:10 am

Everyone knows the "Vietnam Syndrome." And then Spencer Ackerman identified the Other Vietnam Syndrome -- the right's obsession with blaming the opponents of misguided wars for the wars' failures, rather than the people who launched them. There's also, however, what I'll call the Other Other Vietnam Syndrome -- the deep, dark, fear lurking in the hearts of all too many progressive leaders that opposing any war, anywhere, anytime will doom you to political oblivion. To wit: PPI President Will Marshall:

"There is a cautionary lesson for today's Democrats in the early 1970s, when their party generally sided with the public in thinking that the Vietnam War was botched beyond repair and the United States needed to get out," said Will Marshall, president of the Progressive Policy Institute, a think tank associated with the centrist Democratic Leadership Council. As a result of Democrats' perceived excesses and close association with anti-war protests, he said, the party got a reputation for being averse to any use of force and too quick to blame America first for international problems.

"That reputation put Democrats in the political doghouse for three decades," Marshall said. "So I think those who are mindful of history will shy away from trying to take over Iraqi policy by, for instance, cutting off funding for the war. The fact is, you really can't conduct U.S. foreign policy from the House of Representatives. It's folly to even try."

It would be foolish to deny that there's some truth to this account. But at the end of the day, I think this analysis amounts to very, very little. This version of the Decline and Fall of the New Deal Coalition, for one thing, always manages to evade the central role of race. The midcentury Democratic Party relied on securing the votes of white supremacists to obtain electoral majorities. Once the Democrats turned decisively away from the politics of white supremacy, they lost this edge, and southern voters took themselves and their generally conservative views into the GOP.

Meanwhile, after the debacle of 1972 -- where war-related issues definitely played a role -- it took the Democrats not thirty years, but four years to get back into the White House. Had Jimmy Carter and the Democratic congress of the late-1970s ran the country in a really impressive manner, the crack-up years of the early seventies would have just been a historical blip. But Carter made a lot of errors early in his presidency, the congressional leadership got cocky and didn't cooperate with Carter to make his administration a success, he inherited a bad macroeconomic situation and ran into bad luck relating to oil prices, and by the end he'd become very unpopular. Then came Ronald Reagan and the rest you know.

Meanwhile, the essence of the problem with anti-war politics in the Vietnam Era was that you had mainstream anti-war sentiment being tarred by associations with genuine radicalism and pervasive fears of social disorder. During a period of frequent violent urban rioting, a movement heavily invested in large-scale public demonstrations was frightening. You had the draft-dodging and associated illegal activities. You had people chanting "Ho! Ho! Ho Chi Minh!" and prominent campus groups calling for the violent overthrow of the American government. Things like that.

I, too, would be seriously worried if contemporary opposition to the Iraq War started going down that path. But there's no evidence that it is. Anti-war politics in the contemporary United States is being led by a range of perfectly mainstream, law-abiding politicians ranging from yuppie liberals like Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi to gritty pro-defense dudes like Jim Webb and John Murtha. There's no rioting in the streets, nobody's calling veterans baby killers (every Wizards game I go to they announce at halftime the presence of recovering wounded soldiers from Walter Reed and every time they do it everybody stands and cheers), nobody's saying the United States should embrace Salafi Islam -- it's just a very different situation in almost all of the relevant respects.

Last but by no means least, when thinking of the impact of Vietnam on the Democratic Party it's important to recall that, in effect, JFK and LBJ started the war, then mishandled the war, and only then became associated with over-the-top anti-war politics. The optics of that back-and-forth were very bad in a way that opposing a war the other guy started and then mismanaged aren't.

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Comments (32)

An important distinction (that you allude to) is that it was possible to identify North Vietnam to Communism to a Better Life for the Worker, and there were in fact some on the Left who did so, however deluded they may have been. Hence there was a radical to antiwar linkage that is just absent this time around, since no one in American politics has any ideological commonalities with radical Islamism--which at its base is a call for return to the purity of an earlier period.

Also, disassociating the Democratic Party from crazy leftist anti-war hippies is not helped by people like Marshall saying that the party needs to be wary of the base because it's filled with crazy leftist anti-war hippies.


Badly outdated irrelevant post

A discussion of heights statistics

http://investing.calsci.com/statistics.html

Players US population this tall
3σ Michael Jordan 6'6", Kobe Bryant 6'7" 130,000
4σ Larry Bird 6'9", Karl Malone 6'9" 3,200
5σ Shaquille O'Neal 7"1', Wilt Chamberlain 7'1", Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 7'2" 28
6σ Yao Ming 7'5" 2 in the world

BTW, I think these are obviously wrong at the top end. There are far more than 28 seven footers in the country. I'd bet that's off by a factor of 10 or so. At one point just last year, UK had 3 players over 7'. And they've had other 7' players who are still alive. Like Sam Bowie. That's 4.

Very insightful. Just for the record, there has been no definitive proof that any soldier was spit on when he/she returned home. I was in the Air Force during the Vietnam war and traveled extensively across the country in my uniform (I didn't have a lot of civilian clothes). No one ever spit on me, cursed me, or even gave me the finger. Some did buy me drinks, offer me rides, gave me good directions, and treated me with respect. Secondly, people did associate the peace movement and anti-war feelings with the "dirty druggy sex-crazed hippies". The public hated the war but hated the counter-culture anti-war left even more. They never felt good about turning against the war. The right wing politicians and pundits absolved the conflicted conscience of the public by blaming the anti-war left for losing Vietnam. And it worked.

i understand that the right politics and the right policy aren't the same thing, but it is still worth noting that those of who saw america's misadventure in vietnam as a catastrophe that was impossible to correct were, uh, correct.

it's also worth noting that the '72 campaign was between "out now" and "peace with honor," not "out now" and "stay the course."

it's also worth noting that while i don't subscribe to Great Man thinking in general, the whole history of the last 40 years might well have been different had bobby kennedy not been assassinated; even if you don't believe that, it's worth remembering that humphrey would assuredly have ended the war in the '68 - '72 period had he been elected.

which isn't to say that sudden revival of maoist tendencies among the newer left would be a good thing....

Wow, I expected at least a little more handwringing from someone who was dead wrong about going to war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Seems like you realized the folly behind Iraq, Matt, but I haven't heard you say anything about what a ridiculous idea it was to invade Afghanistan in the aftermath of 9/11.

And what exactly is the problem with taking a radical position vis-a-vis a radical policy of killing thousands of people? What exactly is the matter with bringing up the fact that U.S. taxpayers are funding the murder of children and yes, babies?

You try to take on Marshall's dishonest justification for supporting war, but you end up coalescing with his very sentiment, that us anti-war folk (you know, the ones who DID take to the streets and DID get arrested in 2003 in order to try to prevent this fucking disaster, while people like you, Yglesias, were patting other liberals on the back for not being too radical!) are somehow deranged, anti-American radicals. And what's wrong, exactly, with calling for the violent overthrow of an unjust, unresponsive, unscrupulous government--or is that kinda thing only allowed in the history books?

Pathetic. This war, this government, and the media apologists. Things like this make me want to spit... on a pundit.
Patooey.

Meanwhile, after the debacle of 1972 -- where war-related issues definitely played a role -- it took the Democrats not thirty years, but four years to get back into the White House.

Carter was a one-off result of Watergate. It's always difficult to play with counterfactuals, but do you really think Carter would have taken the White House had Watergate not occurred?

BTW, I think these are obviously wrong at the top end.

Yup. After all, the 7'5" cohort (only 2???) is obviously wrong. Manute Bol and Gheorge Muresan are still alive, making at least three.

There been a serious lack of basketblogging here lately. Is it now confined to the (unread by me) DCist? After all, nothing of importance happened in politics the last week.

Yup. After all, the 7'5" cohort (only 2???) is obviously wrong. Manute Bol and Gheorge Muresan are still alive, making at least three.

Except the 2 was for US population, and Bol and Muresan are both foreign immigrants brought here specifically due to their height. Actual Americans 7'5" or taller? I can only think of Shawn Bradley.

There is one key difference between Vietnam and Iraq that people forget. Getting heavily involved in Vietnam was a mainstream choice. It was an error that most prominent politicians probably would have made, had they been president instead of Johnson.

Invading Iraq, on the other hand, was a kooky idea that a only few people on the far right believed in. It was interesting how it played out. We had a president who bought into the kooky idea, and then did a full-on sales job, and transformed it (with the help of 9/11 hysteria) into a maintstream idea.

So, I think a strong antiwar message now can be more politically successful than in the 70s, since Bush and the Republicans completely owns the Iraq debacle, and since actual foreign policy experts (not to be confused with neocon pseudo-intellectuals) overwhelmingly believed it was a nutty idea to begin with.

Without arguing with your history, as I said at Ezra's, you are correct that the narrative of this war is more favorable to Democrats. But a lost war is a lost war, and still hurts.

However please do not underestimate the objective consequences of a humiliating defeat. Oops. The economic (end of Keynesian stimulus, possible oil disruption, rebuilding the military) problems on the horizon...added to the problems already obvious will likely lead to a decade of slow growth.

The security problems and perceptions as Iraq descends into full-scale ethnic cleansing, with a possible regional war; the loss or respect and soft power, contempt and distrust from our allies; pressure overseas for consequences for the Bush-era arrogance and brutality and lawlessness;increased al-Qaeda recruiting and an expansion of terroristic acts...well it will be a challenging and possibly dispiriting decade. Always be prepared for another 9/11 event.

And then of course the problems of Peak oil, global warming, China.

I fully expect the next decade to look like the 70s, at my most optimistic. And as in the 70s, one Party will seek to solve problems, while the other seeks to exploit them. Beware and prepare.

I wins! I wins!

You posted on this back in September, darkly hinting that you thought there was a Third Vietnam Syndrome, on beyond spackerman's "Other".

I took a guess at what it might be, and I was right:

"The paralyzing fear among Democrats and the press that any criticism of military action will be turned against them as a charge of disloyalty, cowardice, anti-patriotism, etc."

http://www.matthewyglesias.com/archives/2006/09/syndromes/index.php#027559

I thus win the MY Mindreading Prize and win two tickets into John Malkovich's Brain.

One other point. I really wish Democrats would learn something from Gingrich and start publicly using words like "nutty", "bizarre", "kooky", etc, to describe Bush's decision to invade Iraq, and his ridiculously incompetent decisions in the occupation.

One problem is that, since war is such a serious undertaking, people only use serious, weighty language to describe the decisions surrounding it. This has conferred unwarranted gravity and respect to Bush. We should fight this tendency and use language that refers to him as the clown that he is.

The optics of that back-and-forth were very bad in a way that opposing a war the other guy started and then mismanaged aren't.

Optics? If you should have learned anything from the 'problematics' business, it's that misusing high-falutin' words doesn't make you sound smart.

A lost war is a lost war, but a worse fate is a crappy academic shamed. Neo-cons will spit nails for the next 40 years. Into their 90s and beyond.

There's a funny book -- A History of the World in 10 1/2 Chapters by Julian Barnes -- which concludes with a view of the afterlife. Once in heaven you get to do everything you want. Immediately. Pancakes and sausage for breakfast. Golf. Sex. Chess. Whatever.

Eventually, however, desire gets sated. Or fades. Eventually, you decide, "That's it." And then, you fade out and are reprieved from the harshness of Eternity.

Except for academics. Their arguments go on forever.

Vietnam reforests. The last Agent Orange victim dies. Coca Cola and McDonalds rule Hanoi. But academics will fight that war forever. And, now, we've got Afghanistan and Iraq for fodder.

Let that be a lesson about starting wars or hiring professors.

I seem to recall a right-wing that revered an America that minded its own business.

But now Thomas Jefferson is a lib Hitler.

And that Adams is a tub of lard but his ideas about censorship are good.

Jim W: I really wish Democrats would learn something from Gingrich and start publicly using words like "nutty", "bizarre", "kooky", etc, to describe Bush's decision to invade Iraq

This is the biggest way that the Democrats who voted for the authorization of force cut themselves--and other Dems--off at the knees. Nobody should have voted for a "kooky" war.

You're right, they shouldn't have voted for the war.

I guess its best on non-hypocrisy grounds that the Democrats who use this language should be the ones who voted against it.

This does raise another pet peeve of mine, though. They actually voted to give Bush authorization to go to war, which in fact turned out to be very successful at getting Saddam to capitulate and allow inspectors back in. They didn't, technically speaking, vote for going to war after it was clear that Saddam was cooperating.

So, it was only a mistake voting for the war to the extent that they should have known that Bush is a total idiot.

"Once the Democrats turned decisively away from the politics of white supremacy, they lost this edge, and southern voters took themselves and their generally conservative views into the GOP."

This is pretty innaccurate unless you talk about the way in which those conservative views were a way of continuing racism in a more palatable guise.

There been a serious lack of basketblogging here lately. Is it now confined to the (unread by me) DCist?

I must, with great regret, agree with Al.

they actually voted to give Bush authorization to go to war, which in fact turned out to be very successful at getting Saddam to capitulate and allow inspectors back in.

The inspectors were in Iraq until Bush withdrew them. Saddam had, long ago, thrown out inspectors, but the absent inspectors were Bush's idea. If the inspectors stayed and stayed and stayed and never found any WMDs, boy, would his face have been red.

'"That reputation put Democrats in the political doghouse for three decades," '

Well, wasn't the decision to be hawkish on Vietnam motivated somewhat the Democrats not wanting to be on the receiving end of "Who Lost China" accusations like they were in the late 1940s-early 1950s?

Yeah, the right has been playing anti-patriot card since China and the late 40s. Kennedy postulated the absurd "missile gap" to get to the right of Nixon on defense. For the good of the country, people need to stand up to this crap, instead of running scared like Marshall wants.

This statement by Matt is dead on, and I wonder why more people don't seem to understand it:

"Meanwhile, the essence of the problem with anti-war politics in the Vietnam Era was that you had mainstream anti-war sentiment being tarred by associations with genuine radicalism and pervasive fears of social disorder. During a period of frequent violent urban rioting, a movement heavily invested in large-scale public demonstrations was frightening. You had the draft-dodging and associated illegal activities. You had people chanting "Ho! Ho! Ho Chi Minh!" and prominent campus groups calling for the violent overthrow of the American government. Things like that."

This stuff is SO BASIC in understanding the late 60s/early 70s, but people who want to use the 60s to discredit anything left of the DLC constantly ignore it.

Jim W: So, [voting to authorize force] was only a mistake voting for the war to the extent that they should have known that Bush is a total idiot.

They should have known not that he was an idiot (although he is), but that he was committed to going to war. It was plainly evident that Bush at least preferred taking us to war, if the question of whether he was fully committed was still open to debate.

Maybe I was an idiot then. I actually supported the authorization bill because I thought Bush was bluffing. After Saddam capitulated, I thought Bush would basically declare victory, call off the war, and let the inspectors do their thing. It just seemed, if nothing else, the safest thing to do politically.

Wait a minute. Isn't saying Bush preferred going to war even after Saddam capitulated the same as saying Bush was a total idiot?

Isn't saying Bush preferred going to war even after Saddam capitulated the same as saying Bush was a total idiot?

Only if one thinks that Bush's interests and America's interests are aligned. I believe that they are not.

"Kennedy postulated the absurd "missile gap" to get to the right of Nixon on defense."

That was before it was a choice between low taxes/social security benefits and having the biggest defense budget in the solar system. (That's the beauty of eventually passing national health care on the backs of the middle class. They'll be even less inclined to pay for a grotesque military budget.)

the deep, dark, fear lurking in the hearts of all too many progressive leaders that opposing any war, anywhere, anytime will doom you to political oblivion.

I'd just call that plain old political ignorance?

How many middle class mom & dad's do you see these days doing the Great Santini routine, saying "gee I hope little Sasha joins the military some day to fight genoicide/support democracy in some foreign land"?

And anyone to the left of Great Santini is not going to get great Santini's vote no matter what, anyways.

Sheesh, even the sainted FDR couldn't get a rise out of the American public about Hitler and Tojo and stuff until Pearl Harbor. They just didn't want to know--not their problem. They bought into all the Cold War stuff (slowly, a troop at a time) only because we actually did have nuclear missiles pointed at us, provable ones, ones that the other guy bragged about.

American politics = no war without threat of attack.

We need to get the public back to their state of mind on foreign wars pre-WWII, and cancel out the cold war paradigm that everything, everywhere, is our affair. This will be a long, twilight struggle in domestic politics.

Wait, what was the first Vietnam Syndrome again?

I think it was an irrational inability to stop eating fresh spring rolls with shrimp, cilantro and spring onions dipped in nuoc mam....?


Comments closed November 27, 2006.

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