« The War of the Maybes | Main | Lean, Sinewy »

Cuba and Chile: A Tale of Two Policies

13 Dec 2006 10:19 am

Since the right seems unwilling to discuss Augusto Pinochet's legacy through any frame other than comparisons with Fidel Castro let's just say that, yes, Castro's regime over its many decades in office has tallied up a more destructive record. That said, America's policies toward Pinochet and Castro represent a single disastrous conservative approach to Latin American issues. Cuba, as of the 1950s, was under the dictatorial rule of Fulgencio Batista without apparent objection from the United States which had no particular concern with Cuban democracy. A revolt broke out, came to be led by Fidel Castro, and took control of the country in 1959 at which point many former regime figures were killed. The United States government, fearing that the new regime would implement a pro-Soviet foreign policy and a socialist economy policy that would be detrimental to US strategic interests and the financial interests of American business enterprises began an effort to isolate the new regime in the hopes of precipitating its collapse. This didn't work, but did ensure that the risk of a pro-Soviet foreign policy was destined to become a reality. At this point, the US government engaged in various efforts to overthrow or kill Castro, including the Bay of Pigs invasion in which the US sponsored an invasion of the country by Cuban exiles associated with the old regime.

Following the Cuban Missile Crisis, the US ceased active efforts to overthrow Castro. It continued, however, to wage economic warfare against Cuba, subjecting the country to broad unilateral sanctions in the hopes that shackling the country economically would somehow lead to the collapse of the regime. At the same time, America's borders were opened unconditionally to Cubans wishing to emigrate to the United States.

Some decades later, Salvador Allende came to power through the democratic process in Chile. Here, again, the US government feared the implementation of pro-Soviet foreign policy and socialist economic policy, again damaging America's strategic interests and the financial interests of American business. The US began working with anti-Allende elements in Chile to destabilize the country politically and economically. Eventually, we supported Augusto Pinochet's efforts to mount a coup against Allende. The justification for this coup was that events in Chile were leading in the direction of a Communist dictatorship, and the cure was to implement an anti-Communist dictatorship. Having removed Allende from office, the coup leaders did not, say, organize a swift transition back to democracy. Instead, they remained in power for almost two decades, during which time their political opponents -- including opponents who were democrats in good standing -- were subjected to various forms of persecution including murder, torture, etc.

In contrast to Cuba, the US did nothing to assist the anti-Pinochet opposition, did lot welcome refugees from Chile and, indeed, turned a blind eye to the murder of opposition figures and their allies on US soil. Meanwhile, the campaign to isolate and impoverish Cuba has succeeded in making Cuba even poorer than it otherwise would have been had it merely been subjected to Castro's poor economic policies. It has not, however, made any noteworthy progress in bringing about the end of the Castro regime which, in fact, has now significantly outlasted the Soviet Union and its other main allies. Meanwhile, our insistence on sanctioning Cuba and efforts to implement secondary sanctions on that country has from time to time strained America's relationship with various European and Latin American countries.

Share This

Comments (57)

Democracy doesn't make for good foreign policy. To curry favor with powerful minorities, our Cuban and Middle Eastern policies must pass the local politics test. Bush has taken this defect and internalized it, domestic policy must pass a religious test.

Granted that the US's anti-Castro policy since 1960 has been disastrous, do you seriously think there's a non-negligible chance that he might have NOT turned towards the Soviets, regardless of the US's attitude? We're talking 1959, 1960 here. Not only did you have the enormous appeal of a still plausible ideology of worldwide revolutionary anti-imperialist liberation, at a time when the US was hardly seen as anti-imperialist or revolutionary. (Revolutionary ideologies tend to appeal to, uh, revolutionaries.)

But also, there's an extremely important point which was outlined at the time in an incisive essay by, of all people, Richard Nixon. (At least, it appeared under Nixon's name; I don't know whether he wrote it.) Nixon argued that the danger of Communism in the Third World was that in newly independent post-colonial states, the local elites who took power would be tempted by how EASY Communist authoritarianism was, and how hard democracy was. After all, you've just fought a long hard struggle for liberation, and you and your buddies have taken power. Now, one ideology says: Congratulations! You're the vanguard. Take over the country and run it by fiat according to these socialist prescriptions, and the future is radiant. The other ideology says: Congratulations! Now you have to build democratic institutions, separate powers, confer with the business community on your economic policies, and prepare to hold elections which may throw you out of power in a few years - possibly so that the guys you just finished kicking out (not the Europeans, but maybe their local lackeys) can take things over again. Which do you choose?

Take that, and combine it with the incredible nationalistic anti-Americanism that comes from being on America's doorstep, and it seems practically impossible that Castro could have turned away from the Soviets in 1959-60. In Vietnamese history, we have the moment in 1945 when Ho Chi Minh wrote to Truman for support, and was ignored. Is there anything remotely similar in the history of the Cuban revolution?

I think it's important to bear in mind that the apologists for Pinochet aren't just advocating 'fair and balanced' discussion-- they're saying, quite specifically, that murder and torture are justified under certain political conditions. It's fair to ask (at least) exactly what these conditions are.

I really don't know why it's expected we'll ever change our methods. Native Americans in the lower 48 and Alaska were/are killed, oppressed and robbed from, their cultures destroyed by Europeans (i. e. New Americans). We ravaged the Philipines, nuked various Pacific Island atolls and chains, enslaved peoples all over the globe for our personal enrichment and nuked a nation already on its knees in the waning weeks of war. We ground down several generations of immigrants, Africans and the poor building our national infrastructure, achieved through mostly substandard, dangerous working conditions and meager wages (or no wages at all). Iraq is nothing new, we've been at this since 1492. You get pretty good at something after 500+ years of doing it.

What is the point of this? Just that Republican foreign policy is both inconsistent and unwise? You won't convince the brilliant thinkers at the National Review of that--as Orwell said (I paraphrase), it is impossible to convince a man to believe something when his income depends on his not believing it.

America's policies toward Pinochet and Castro represent a single disastrous conservative approach to Latin American issues.

I love when Matthew counts the policies of liberal Republican Eisenhower and liberal Democrat Kennedy as the "disastrous conservative approach" to Cuba!

And I love it when Al dismisses Eisenhower--Eisenhower, of all people!--as a mere liberal . . .

Also, Brooksfoe's comment is quite incisive. I must now go read the other threads on which he posted to make sure I'm not going crazy.

The Right also has an interesting tendency to repeat outright lies about the situation in Chile prior to the coup that brought Pinochet to power, as seen in this NRO "symposium".

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDQxNTJlM2M4OTRhOGJhNTMzNTkyNDQ2YmYzMTU3ZTU=

There is, in fact, no creditable evidence that Allende was planning a self-coup with Cuban assistance. It is also untrue that the Chilean Parliament called for Allende to be removed from power by force. These are not matters of opinion. These are lies told to excuse the complicity of the US government and the American Right in the atrocities committed during the coup and Pinochet's subsequent reign of terror.

The more interesting comparison is not to Castro, but to the leftist Sandinistas in Nicaragua who came to power in the late 1970s by deposing a hideous right-wing dictatorship. The American Right went utterly nuts over the Sandinistas, culminating in the well-known scandal where CIA operatives sold weapons to Iran in order to operate a slush fund for right-wing terrorists who opposed the Sandinistas.

Nicaragua in the 1980s was nobody's idea of a civil libertarian paradise. The regime seized property and clamped down on personal freedoms, and they aided leftist guerrillas in neighboring El Salvador. But they also held several internationally-monitored elections, won the first one, and then ceded power after losing in 1990. No limestone-pit mass graves have been unearthed, to my knowledge. Few, if any, tales of torture rooms can be found. Daniel Ortega and his crowd were inarguably better for human rights than the preceding regime, and they left a reasonably stable democratic government in their wake.

It makes for an interesting comparison to Pinochet.

It still comes down to: let's take it as given that Castro and Pinochet were murderous tyrants. There was still plenty of reason for the left to bellyache about Pinochet but not Castro, because we were supporting Pinochet while doing everything we could to oppose Castro.

There are a lot of bad guys in the world, and we can't do something about all of them. But we can choose who our allies are, and when our country chooses murderous thugs as allies, the citizenry damned well ought to be upset about it.

Its simply false to say that we did nothing to help the anti-Pinochet opposition. During the 1980s we pressured him to hold and then to respect the referendum he had promised on whether his rule should continue. We were also instrumental in pressuring him to relax the limits on independent political activity in the years leading up to the referendum, making it possible for the opposition to win it.

I've never understood the hypocrisy where the Right Wing hyperventilates over the mere thought of any foreign interference in our domestic political process (remember the outcry in 1996 with Chinese-sourced political donations?) but the idea that the CIA can and does overtly interfere with other countries - as amply evidenced in the Allende/Pinochet story - is simply taken for granted.

"rd" also makes a very good point. The Reagan Administration, in the 1980s, was key in pressuring Pinochet to hold the referendum that led to his ouster. And, as David Frum notes, the people inside the Reagan Administration that were important in that policy were neocons Elliot Abrams and Paul Wolfowitz. (Which is sharp contrast to the realist Kissinger's policies toward Chile.)

Again, more proof that neocons are on the right side of things, and realists on the wrong side of things.

As for the comparison with the Sandinistas, its by means clear that they were "inarguably" better for human rights than the Somoza regime. CIA funding can't generate a guerilla movement when there's nothing more than some "clamping down on personal freedoms." And do you think they fought the Contras according to to the Geneva conventions? As for their "internationally monitored elections", the 1984 version was laughably unfair, with active intimidation of opposition meetings, and 1990 one only moderately less so. More important, they only agreed to the 1990 elections as a way to end the war with the Contras. Pinochet didn't require a civil war to force him to democratize, and the regime he left behind was at least as democratic and stable as the post-Ortega one. Nor did Pinochet try to export his regime violently to neighboring countries.

Nor did Pinochet try to export his regime violently to neighboring countries.

True: when Pinochet murdered people abroad, it was only his own democratic opponents. On the other hand, the Sandinistas never blew up any cars on Dupont Circle.

I never understand the trigger points which negate anything that a "socialist" might do. Or the absolution points which absolve anything a "capitalist" might do. It's not like the ancient racial tests where a "single drop" of black blood made a person black because there isn't a single all capitalist country in existence today. But there are definitely trigger points and absolution points. It's just that they're secret. Conservative panjandrums do their honey dance and abracadbra "So-and-so is beyond the pale" or "Such-and-such is a benevolent friend to mankind". How they arrived at the distinction is known only to their fellow schmucks. Asking for the internal workings is simply a sign that the asker is not in the know and therefore doesn't need to know.

Why should we say that? I don't understand why, in order to prove our bona fides, we have to spend as much or more time denouncing Castro before we are allowed to point out that Pinochet was a vicious, fascistic, murderous dictator who overthrew a well-established parliamentary democracy and set back the cause of freedom and democracy in South America for a generation in a coup sponsored by our government.

As for how bad Pinochet was:
"The Chilean College of Medicine says that at least two-hundred thousand people were tortured in Chile between 1973 and 1990, during the military government headed by Augusto Pinochet.

At a news conference in Santiago, the College, the country's national medical association, said at least a-hundred-and-fifty of its own members were among those who had been tortured.

Several members said the use of torture was government policy under general Pinochet."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/379163.stm

The US began working with anti-Allende elements in Chile to destabilize the country politically and economically.

False. The US had been working with anti-Allende elements in Chile since long before Allende's election. In the 1964 presidential election, the US provided over half of the campaign funds of the candidate who beat Allende, as well as trying to fragment Allende's coalition.

But of course, since an American didn't shoot Salvador Allende personally, the US had nothing to do with the coup.

In the 1964 presidential election, the US provided over half of the campaign funds of the candidate who beat Allende (emphasis added)

It's that damned conservative US policy again! I say we blame it on that conservative Lyndon Baines Johnson.

But of course, since an American didn't shoot Salvador Allende personally, the US had nothing to do with the coup.

But, of course, since the US once tried some bad things in Chile, we're directly and fully responsible for every single event that ever took place (or will take place) in Chile from then until the end of history.

(Hey, if neil can make ridiculous arguments, why can't we all!?)

But of course, since an American didn't shoot Salvador Allende personally, the US had nothing to do with the coup.

Yes -- you should read Al, at his most hilariously Stalinist, make exactly that case here.

I sometimes imagine Al reading old issues of Pravda from the thirties and getting a little weepy that he was born in America, rather than a country where his talents could fully bloom.

durn non-closed tag.

Also, Al...yeesh, did you pay attention at all in history class? We had a broad and almost uninterrupted (Carter being the lone exception, essentially, and look at the good it did him) bipartisan foreign policy consensus in this country from the end of WWII to the end of the Cold War. It can rightly be characterized as "conservative" in nearly every meaning of the word, whether it was implemented by racist Ronald Reagan or Civil-Rights-Act-signing LBJ.

Whoops -- I guess I should have said "you should read Al half an inch above this."

The "hilariously Stalinist" part would remain the same, of course.

My tyrant is better than your tyrant!

Al, obviously, is playing a silly game by trying to relabel everything as liberal.

The only pertinent question is what label we would attach to these policies by today's standards. Sure, JFK and LBJ played critical roles in getting us involved in Vietnam. But the real issue is, who today thinks they did the right thing? Who today thinks we should have stayed in Vietnam for another decade if that's what it took? Only conservatives.

The common thread we see in Cuba and in Chile is opposition to Communism (and Communism-lite) at all costs, human rights and similar considerations aside. Again, this may have been largely bipartisan at the time, but it's a policy that conservatives and not liberals identify with today.

Al's position only makes sense if you want to discard the argument that there's something wrong with the liberal ideology, as it exists today, and argue instead that anyone who self-identifies as a liberal is wrong regardless of what their actual ideology might be. That's a position which is unlikely to support a coherent defense.

Al...yeesh, did you pay attention at all in history class?

Of course he did. Young Al sat there with a dreamy look on his face as the teacher described Stalinism, with Al wishing and dreaming that he could have been there to work for Uncle Joe.

Apologists for Pinochet in this comparison often point to the comparative prosperity of Chile today, evan though said prosperity is strictly a post-Pinochet phenomenon. There are other measures of well-being than GNP, however. Though Cuba is very poor - and I disagree with those who attribute this primarily to US sanctions - Castro has succeeded in creating what is probably the best public health record in Latin America. From the CIA world factbook:

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook

Infant mortality rate, Cuba:

6.22/1000 live births

Chile

8.58/1000

United States

6.43/1000

Cuba has an infant mortality rate slightly better than the US and considerably better than the rest of Latin America, including Chile. This despite great poverty and a tropical climate (given to disease).

Now, I am *not* saying this means that Castro should be forgiven for having created a brutal dictatorship. The Cuban people should be free. However, a balanced appraisal of Cuba has to take facts like this into account. This has a lot to do with why Castro is so popular in Latin America. While nothing, for me, forgives dictatorship, I am also unwilling to tell the mother of a dead infant in Chile that her child had about a 25% better chance of surviving in Cuba (or the US, but better odds in Cuba) and that this fact is not important.

*I love when Matthew counts the policies of liberal Republican Eisenhower and liberal Democrat Kennedy as the "disastrous conservative approach" to Cuba!
Posted by: Al on December 13, 2006 11:30 AM*

What is the point of addressing Al's rant on this? Does Al documnet any change in the total economic blockade of Cuba from the revolution to the present day? This is one area where US policy has been consistent (albeit consistently wrong) for 40 years. Just another example of a baseless and false assertion with no support from Al. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

*the people inside the Reagan Administration that were important in that policy were neocons Elliot Abrams and Paul Wolfowitz.*

Would that be convicted felon Elliot (lying to congress about Iran Contra and human right violations in Central America and actively undermining the elected government in Nicaragua) Abrams and Paul ("the notion that it will take several hundred thousand U.S. troops to provide stability in post-Saddam Iraq, are wildly off the mark. It is hard to conceive that it would take more forces to provide stability in post-Saddam Iraq than it would take to conduct the war itself and to secure the surrender of Saddam's security forces and his army - hard to imagine.") Wolfowitz by any chance?

It is clear that the Reagan Administration was at best neutral on promoting democracy in Chile. Beyond the occasional bland endorsement of "democracy", can anyone point to any substantive actions the Reagan administration took to support democratic reform in Chile or penalize the Pinochet government for its massive and deplorable human rights violations? Any pressure from the US came from the Democratically controlled congress and was actively opposed by the Reaganites.

Let's face it. The US has usually been on the side of the rich oligarchs and plutocrats and against the poor and working class when it intervenes in political struggles in other countries. From Batista to Somoza to Pinochet the pattern is the same.

I haven't see any conservabots praise Pinochet's human rights record by pointing out that he altered the Chilean constitution to specifically make abortion illegal. Surely this outweighs a little torture, doesn't it?

Interesting take on Pinochet by Alvaro Vargas Llosa.

While nothing, for me, forgives dictatorship, I am also unwilling to tell the mother of a dead infant in Chile that her child had about a 25% better chance of surviving in Cuba (or the US, but better odds in Cuba) and that this fact is not important.

More like a 3% better chance. In any case, I'm not sure I buy the argument that society should be built around fetishization of a poorly reported, easily manipulated statistic like infant mortality.

Some years back, when then-Congresswoman Pat Schroeder was briefly running for President, her idea on Cuban policy was to start a AAA beisbol franchise in Havana. Before you knew it, the casinos and whorehouses would be back (Ms. Schroeder was too much of a lady to put it like that) and Castro would be dancing to our tune. Made more sense than anything else out there. Still does.

The united States did not supprt these actions. ronald Reagan, richard Nixon and Gerald ford did. They are personally responsible for everything that happened. If you don't like that, you shouldn't have voted for them

Republicans want everyone left of Center either dead or marginalized. They don't really care which. There foriegn policy has been 100% consistent: right wing, good. Left wing, bad.

Danny, that post is disgusting. You may as well blame the jews for the halocaust because they had the audacity to demand equal rights. People like you are everything that's wrong with the world.

What substantive actions did the Reagan and Bush I administrations take to ease out Pinochet? They made it clear that Pinochet would face absolute isolation if he backed out of his promise to hold a binding referendum on his rule. Ambassador Barnes was outspoken in highlighting restrictions on opposition political groups and demanding they be eased.

Look the point of all this isn't to praise Pinochet as somehow a model, but to point out a nonviolent transition to democracy took place on his watch and this has to be taken into account when evaluating his regime. Considering that we're likely out of the business of forcibly imposing democracy, a Pinochet-style transition is the best option in a large number of countries. So the question is what factors led to it, and what US policies can help bring about similar outcomes elsewhere.

Question: How many people has Castro "dissapeared" , murded en-mass in soccer stadiums as Pinochet did, or thrown out of helicopters, as the Argentines did ???

Enquiring minds want to know.

right,

No. The base on which you calculate the variation is the percentage of children who would have died in the one country versus the other, not the total number of children in the society. That's 1 - (6.22/8.53) , a decline of 25%.

The CIA World factbook is not going to be manipulated by Cuba, and is known to be a definitive source on basic statistics like this. Of course, I'm sure you prefer just to invent thbe statistics you like.

Martin Bento said
The CIA World factbook is not going to be manipulated by Cuba, and is known to be a definitive source on basic statistics like this. Of course, I'm sure you prefer just to invent thbe statistics you like.

From the Factbook FAQ:
"What is The World Factbook’s source for a specific subject field?
The Factbook staff uses many different sources to publish what we judge are the most reliable and consistent data for any particular category. Space considerations preclude a listing of these various sources."

"Most reliable and consistent" does NOT necessarily mean definitive. And when it comes to Cuba, where there is little freedom of inquiry or expression, it's very difficult to find any definitive statistical facts.

Oh and by the way Martin,
You're wrong about the difference in percentages. Assuming the reported stats are correct, you can say that Chile's infant mortality rate (i.e. deaths/births) is 25% higher, but that does not mean that 25% more of Chile's children die at birth, which is what you implied in your original post.

Michael Carey, Castro killed 5 - 12 thousand by estimates of those with no obvious axe (otherwise estimates range wildly), mostly in the 60's; very few since. That's executions, not people killed in the revolution itself, though it includes 5 or 6 hundred summary executions immediately following the revolution. Not as bad as Pinochet, but hardly commendable. Here's a wikipedia article that covers it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

rd wrote:

"CIA funding can't generate a guerilla movement when there's nothing more than some "clamping down on personal freedoms." "

Of course, it can. Money makes the world go round. Besides which, the leaders of the Contras were former Samoza people - akin to former Baathists, you know. And the Contras were terrorists. Terrorists can be very effective even with small numbers, as the US was taught on 9/11.

Well, I'm glad Matt didn't zone out entirely when Professor Peabody delivered his fractured history lecture. Still, there are a few points that could stand clarification.

Castro at first attempted to establish diplomatic relations with the US. It was only the total refusal of the US to deal with him that gave the Soviets an opening.

As for that "brutal dictatorship", it's a mighty funny dictatorship that depends on a well-armed militia with people keeping guns in their homes to stay in power. It's also misleading to say our borders were opened "unconditionally" to Cubans, because Castro has always said he would issue exit visas to any Cuban who had an entry visa to the US, but our government has always refused to issue entry visas, apparently because Cubans would then be subject to the same immigration laws as others who enter the US.

Nor is it correct to say we did not continue to attack Cuba after the Bay of Pigs, as we have sponsored and sheltered terrorists who, among other things, have attacked Cuban ships with rockets and blew an airliner out of the sky. These are the things we know about.

Allende, of course, was elected a little over a decade after Castro came to power. Americans were afraid that American businesses in Chile would be nationalized; AT&T became the functional lead agency in coordinating American support for Pinochet's coup.

Pinochet could hardly export democracy or revolution, but he did export terror and repression, cooperating in the Condor alliance of dictatorships to assassinate leftists and having Orlando Letelier assassinated in Washington DC in 1976.

It's also just a fact that CIA funding, generously augmented with money from CIA sponsored drug smuggling, created and maintained the Contras, who specialized in attacking undefended settlements, killing mainly women and children. They knew which settlements were undefended because the CIA supplied them with our aerial surveillance info. Older readers may remember a rightwing conspiracy called Iran-Contra.

And for all of you young people who think that anything that happened before you were born is "ancient history" that you won't be tested on again- until 1976 Afghanistan was a relatively modern nation, by third-world standards. The warlords began a campaign of assassination against schoolteachers and nurses as a way of attacking the socialist government that was in power then. Their success in killing schoolteachers and nurses is one reason Afghanistan will be a potential threat to us for many years to come.

The past isn't dead- it's not even past.

kwo,

No, it means the number of children per unit population who die in infancy in Cuba is 25% lower than the number of such who die in Chile, which is what a "25% lower infant mortality rate" means. The CIA World factbook is definitive in that it is the best source we have; I notice none of you guys have even suggested another source, just made vague suggestions that the facts could be manipulated by Castro. It is always possible to doubt the facts presented by our best establshed authorities, and there is often good reason to do so, but one has the burden of proof of offering a specific cause for doubt.

A few words about Pinochet/Castro/US interference in Latin America...

Right wing nut typical statement: It was either Pinochet's regime or Marxism in Chile.

FALSE. In 1964, there was a widely documented CIA coup in Brazil ot oust Goulart, a politician in many ways similar to Allende. From 1964 to 1984, there were 5 military presidents in Brazil, after a bloodless military coup. Each of them either died of natural causes in office or governed through a 6 year mandate. Only after four years into the military regime, hard core wingnuts in the Brazilian military started disappearing people and torturing, some would argue that in reaction to the growth of armed insurgent movements. The model of military intervention in Brazil was later exported to many other Latin American countries, most famously to Chile. However, Pinochet's coup INNOVATED by torturing and killing dissidents from day one. And Pinochet, the crook, also innovated by stealing tens of millions of dollars, an accusation that the Brazilian military presidents were never subjected to.

Both Brazil and Chile are among the most unequal countries in the world while growing at a similar rate since their respective coups (Brazil grew at fast rates between 64 and 80; Chile grew at fast rate since the late eighties, but its economy CONTRACTED over the first 10 years of Pinochet)

The comparison between Castro and Pinochet is not very informative of Pinochet the man. The comparison between Pinochet and the less murderous, more democratic and just as good at managing Brazilian generals leaves the Chilean thug way behind, and highlights how frivolous and unnecessary was the killing that he engendered.

Excuse me, that should be ITT that helped attack Allende.

Econbras,

The only things I would add to your Brazil/Pinochet comparison, which I largely agree with are the following points for the readers information:

The rule of General Medici was probably the most brutal and it had the added impact of saddling Brazil with lots of debt from grand projects like the Itaipu Dam, the Transamazonica Highway and the Rio-Niteroi Bridge.

Torture was the hallmark of the Brazilian junta. While there were hundreds, not thousands, of disappearances, torture was widespread.

For more on the US role in the Brazilian coup, click here.

Is there anything remotely similar in the history of the Cuban revolution?

No, the Monroe Doctrine goes way back and no one in this hemisphere would have had any illusions as to what sassing back the boss entailed.

One wonders what happened to Al here, after his last, indefensibly idiotic, post.

"Ambassador Barnes was outspoken in highlighting restrictions on opposition political groups and demanding they be eased."

rd... Notice that I said substantive action, not speeches and threats. Talk is cheap. Did the US impose any economic or political sanctions during Pinochet's rule? NO! Why? Because the US was neck deep in making the coup and subsequent repression. He was "our sonofabitch" and the US supported him throughout his brutal rule.

As a contemporaneous counter example, when the US really doesn't like what a country is doing, say in Nicaragua, we mine their harbors, fund equip, and provide intel for reactionary terrorists (whoops "freedom fighters") to wage war and impose crippling economic sanctions. That's substantive action that the Reaganites took while "speaking forefully" about Pinochet.

While there probably is a point that in the 60's, Castro may have turned towards the Soviets, I think that since then if the US government may have made a non-interference treaty with Cuba, dropped the sanctions, and all that, I really do think that Castro would have been forced into democratic elections for the actual government.

But there's a few things that would have to be accepted.

#1. The Cuban exiles will never be welcome back.

#2. The Cuban paradise and economy will be run for the benefit of the Cuban people. The businesses will be owned by Cubans, manned by Cubans, who will be getting great wages.

#3. The Cuban economy will flourish. Yes. This will provide a strong counter-point for 2nd and even 3rd world nations to forgo the US-promoted investment economy in favor of a populist one.

Tough.

All side issues that overlook the only valid comparison: how does our foreign policy towards Pinochet and Castro stand up against effective promotion of our interests?

Not only do I think the record makes it clear that our interests have NOT been advanced by 44 years of economic games against Cuba (since the Cuban Missile Crisis)and the support of the murderous Pinochet, I also think we are poorer morally for justifying support for ANY tyrant and for pursuing an ongoing economic war against Castro long after he poses no threat to our shores.

If the Rightists insist on comparatives, we should at least demand consistency. We are doing essentially nothing about Darfur, or other tyrants who make Castro pale in comparison.

karmakin,

I'm skeptical that Castro would have a thriving economy absent US embargo. There's nothing he could sell to the US that he could not also sell elsewhere, and, at this point and for a couple of decades, that has also applied to imports. The low value per pound and perishability of agricultural exports may be an exception. It might be profitable to send pineapple to the US, but not Canada, Japan, or Europe, but no other country has done well economically based primarily on agricultural exports, and I don't see why Cuba would be different. I think the embargo is a convenient alibi; communist economics hasn't worked anywhere else, so why would it work in Cuba?

I said earlier that Castro was not as bad as Pinochet. I meant this only in terms of the body count, and even then I could be wrong, as both body counts are pretty disputed. Castro has done well by public health and literacy, however.

Karmarkin: if your #2 is true, then Cuba cannot join the WTO. Hence your #3 will be false.

The path Cuba needs to look to is China's and Vietnam's.

I really don't know why it's expected we'll ever change our methods. Native Americans...

Leave arguments based on Original Sin to the Christianists.

People who defend Pinochet and harp on Castro for HR abuses prove they value opposing communism over human rights.

People who condemn Pinochet for his human rights abuses, but defend Castro, prove that they value opposing capitalism over human rights.

Ok, the word is filled with idealogical assholes.

Get over it and stop trying to draw attention to hypocrites in the opposition to distract from their own serious failings.

@Martin Bento -- you make several lucid observations but your last comment makes it seem as if there were no prosperous societies before industrialization and globalization.

cuba was recently rated the only country in complete compliance with the UN's sustainability criteria, largely as a result of reforms post-ussr. cuba seems to me uniquely well-positioned to confront some sort of global financial crisis related to the dollar or the price of petroleum. does that not say something about its economy?

Murph, I am assuming prosperity for Cuba is evaluated in contemporary terms. By 18th century standards, they are probably prosperous now, but why would we measure them in 18th century terms?

The sustainability matter is a valid point. I was thinking of saying something to that effect, but didn't have a source to prove it offhand, and I have to assume that any remark like that will be challenged. That was not a goal of Castro's, though, nor of Marxism. Marxism grew out of the industrial revolution, and saw itself as the logical conclusion. Environmental concerns loomed very small. Castro had sustainability thrust upon him, when his Soviet sugar daddy went kaput. To his credit, he did work it out, and I would like to see what lessons in sustainability can be taken from his experience. But I don't think that constitutes much of a credit for his system, as it was not an intended outcome. To be fair, it may be that a capitalist system could not have peaceably managed the same transition - remains to be seen, and no doubt depends on other criteria in addition to capitalist/communist. However, Castro has been selling prime real estate to foreigners to keep the economy afloat. At least he was a few years ago; maybe he finally reached a stable state. Obviously, a country that has to sell its own land to keep going is not functional - it's like a person selling his organs to eat.


Comments closed December 27, 2006.

Copyright © 2007 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.