More Questions than Answers

Looks like Allen Iverson is going to be traded. Of course, the Sixers tried to put him on the market last June/July and couldn't find a deal they were happy with and offers are only going to be less generous now, with Philly obviously under the gun and less cap money around.

The problem, at the end of the day, is that Iverson, for all his superstar status, is a pretty unattractive trade commodity and I can't imagine the Sixers getting anything in return that their fans are going to be happy with. People are talking about Minnesota, but they could only offer Philly crap in return. So let's open it up to the floor -- who on the team you root for would you want to trade for Iverson? It seems very hard to put an attractive offer together once you take the need to match salaries into account . . . presumably Philly's not looking for a bunch of bad contracts. Maybe the Knicks think they don't have enough shoot-first point guards yet. You could play Jamal Crawford at center, with Steve Francis at the four, Marbury at three, Iverson at two, and little Nate Robinson running the point.

Comments

The Celtics have expressed interest in the past. And they might be able to come up with some combination of relatively inexpensive young talent along with some hugely expensive mediocrity and crap.

As a C's fan, I'd be OK with this, but only if it puts Danny Ainge on the same "win now or you're done" notice as Isaiah.

As to the Knicks, you just know that they're thinking about making a deal for Iverson. That team has to be viewed as Dadaist performance art, or something. Viewing them as a product of business decisions or basketball talent evaluations just doesn't fit the facts.

Posted by Elvis Elvisberg | December 9, 2006 4:40 PM

I read that Iverson wasn't traded because there was a new ownership group coming in and they wanted things stable til they took over, not that there wasn't a deal the current people running the team didn't like. I don't have any links or anything but I remember reading he was going to the celtics for some of their young talent but it was denied because of ownership issues.

Posted by jared | December 9, 2006 4:42 PM

I doubt that Iverson will end up in NY or Boston. As with most teams looking to trade a top-level player, the Sixers will presumably be looking to ship him to a Western Conference team to get him as far away as possible, but sending him to NY or Boston wouldn't even get him out of their division.

Posted by Haggai | December 9, 2006 5:13 PM

What was that website that does the salaries for you so you can see if trades would be legit?

The first thing I see is Maggette, a draft pick, and some salary dumps for AI. Except that it's too expensive for Sterling, and the Clippers are good and young.

What about Bibby + change? That would make the Queens scary good outside.

Memphis could sure use some scoring, but doesn't have anything.

I'm still betting on the Knicks.

Posted by ptm | December 9, 2006 5:25 PM

I really don't want to trade for him, though I do like to watch AI play, but the question is who would I trade for him so here goes:

Pistons Lose - Lindsay Hunter and Ronald Dupree.

If the Pistons were offered AI for those two, I'd say go for it.

And if the Iraqis agreed to do whatever we wanted so long as Mariah Carey, Britney Spears, and Paris Hilton never do another movie, I'd say that sounds good too.

Posted by OldManCoyote | December 9, 2006 5:39 PM

To answer your question regarding the Sonics, I give up Luke Ridnour and Rashard Lewis for Iverson. Lewis is a capable power forward who is 6 years younger than Webber and Ridnour is a average young point guard. The Sonics need defense though so maybe not.

Posted by stand | December 9, 2006 5:42 PM

You can try out scenarios and salary matches (it doesn't need to be exact and I don't totally understand the rules) with the ESPN Trade Machine.

Posted by Matthew Yglesias | December 9, 2006 5:59 PM

This is the last scenario people think about, but I'd love to see him go to the Jazz. I don't know who I'd give up, however. Perhaps Ronnie Brewer, CJ Miles, Harpring (going back to Philly) and a draft pick. That may seem a bit like garbage, but Philly is not going to get much better from other places. Oddly enough even though the trade involves the Jazz giving up 4 shooting guards, they still wouldn't be depleted. Sloan likes to play combo guards (Fisher, Iverson) or even Kirilenko at the 2.

I also think Sloan would really like Iverson. And Sloan would have to stop saying that line that he has been using for years: "We were trying to go one-on-one with them in that game, but we're not good enough to do that."

Posted by Jeremiah J. | December 9, 2006 6:00 PM

To answer your question regarding the Sonics, I give up Luke Ridnour and Rashard Lewis for Iverson.

Seattle needs to send back more salary; add Nick Collison and it works. This strikes me as not-so-appealing to Philadelphia but as I say, I doubt they'll get a deal they like.

Posted by Matthew Yglesias | December 9, 2006 6:02 PM

Portland. Philly could ship out both AI and Webber for an interesting exchange of talent + junk:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=366~897~2768~454~550~1017&teams=22~22~20~20~20~20

Posted by DC | December 9, 2006 6:36 PM

Szerbiack, West, Telfair, Allen is OK'd by the Machine (thanks, that link is terrific).

The Celts have a bunch of cheap talented young guys like West & Allen (Rondo, Perkins, Jefferson, etc.). They could be packaged with Szerbiack or, theoretically, Pierce or Ratliffe, but I'd think it'd have to be Wally. Dunno what other teams look like, but it seems like matching salaries, and getting legitimate talent, from the Celts is very possible. Minn. is apparently out because they can't work the salaries.

Posted by Elvis Elvisberg | December 9, 2006 6:38 PM

as a long-time philly & ai fan, this sucks. chris webber is the blue whale of white elephants, billy king's crafty strategy of paying players what he wishes they were worth is second only to bush's handling of iraq for spectacular insanity, and the team's going to trade their most popular player.

i think the sixers will probably end up taking horrible lazy players (as a fan, i'm convinced stackhouse, vinsanity, and vin baker will all somehow end up on the roster), and i still think ai will thrive on a good team. he passes well, & has never played on a team with legit other offensive talent and a D that could exploit his knack for roaming passing lanes.

my hope is chicago (they could use the offense, and could part with gordon), the clips (some big contracts), or dallas (young, deep). if only we could package chris webber & billy king for $45 million worth of magic beans.

Posted by matty | December 9, 2006 6:49 PM

I think the fun of it is to try to construct the most complex possible trade that would ever have a shot of being made.

So...

Philly gives Iverson to San Antonio

San Antonio sends Bruce Bowen and Robert Horry to the Sixers and sends Oberto, Beno Udrih, and Brent Barry to the Trailblazers

Portland sends Darius Miles and Dan Dickau to Philly.

Philly makes this trade because:
They get a good defender (Bowen), a decent point guard, and the phenomenally talented Darius Miles. That Horry has a gift for landing on championship teams is a karmic plus.

Portland makes this trade because:
Udrih is just as good as Dickau...probably better, Oberto is underpaid for the kind of player he is, Miles is and was a pain in the ass, and Barry is a great off-the-bench acquisition who can play 3 positions.

San Antonio makes this deal because:
Bowen and Horry are getting up there in years, Udrih never panned out like they wanted, Oberto is another one of their interchangeable big men that they won't miss when he's gone (Malik Rose, anyone?), and Ginobili does what Barry does, but better and more consistently.

Done!

Posted by collin | December 9, 2006 7:01 PM

Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, and PJ Brown's expiring 8 mil?

Eddie Jones's 15 mil is expiring - him and Warrick?

Posted by ptm | December 9, 2006 7:04 PM

ptm, why in the world would Chicago let two of their best three players go just to get a guy who's going to clash with the coach within hours of arriving in Chicago? I think you could talk someone into the Warrick/Jones combo, though.

Posted by collin | December 9, 2006 7:10 PM

The Knicks would never be able to pull it off, but I'd give up Stephon Marbury/Steve Francis (take your pick, they're identical) along with David Lee and Nate Robinson - two instant fan favorites with huge potential. Knicks would get an instant bonafide all-star something they haven't had since Allan Houston in his prime (and even that was a kind of an eh all-star). Philly would get an established star and two exciting youngsters.

It won't work for a lot of reasons, mainly Steph/Francis's gigantic contract that nobody would want ever, but a Knicks fan can dream.

Posted by Dan Panorama | December 9, 2006 7:38 PM

Too bad for KG that the Wolves have very few tradable assets here that work under the cap - teams might want Foye, Smith or Griffin's expiring contract, but that doesn't free up any cap space. The only semi-marketable guy making any kind of money is Ricky Davis. The other big ticket items (Jaric, Blount, Madsen, Hudson) all are overpayed for too many years unless someone drastically overvalues them...

CRAP...

Posted by Pooh | December 9, 2006 7:40 PM

Hey, the Celtics just scored a bucket, a mere 8 minutes into the game. Who needs AI?

Posted by Elvis Elvisberg | December 9, 2006 7:56 PM

Can we term this conundrum "The Manny Problem"?

You have a prolific producer with a high salary for whom you can't get equal value on the open market and are thus stuck with him.

Posted by djslippyb | December 9, 2006 8:03 PM

Shaq + Jason Williams for AI + Dalembert

Posted by JackSC | December 9, 2006 8:45 PM

To answer your question regarding the Sonics, I give up Luke Ridnour and Rashard Lewis for Iverson.

Seattle needs to send back more salary; add Nick Collison and it works. This strikes me as not-so-appealing to Philadelphia but as I say, I doubt they'll get a deal they like.

You both need to put down the crack pipe and back slowly away. Why would Seattle trade its point guard and small forward (and maybe Collison, nice absurd addition there MY) for another shooting guard? So that he and Ray Allen can argue about who shoots too much while neither one plays a lick of defense? What would their starting lineup be? Wilcox, Petro, Damien Wilkins, Allen and Iverson? Man, NBA Finals here we come! You guys are hilarious!

Posted by Col Bat Guano | December 10, 2006 1:27 AM

Gircek-Fisher-Okur for Iverson would work according to the draft machine. Those three have 2, 4 and 4 years left on their contracts. But the contracts are reasonable and except for Fisher the players themselves are actually decent young guys. I guarantee that whatever Philly gets for AI, it will be worse than that.

Of course from a Jazz fan's perspective, it might seem dumb. But out of Okur and Boozer, neither can really play good D in the post. Millsap would be better, and anyway he's been crowned ROY already by MY and Hollinger, so why not usher in the Millsap era? Moreover, despite the fact that the Jazz have 20 shooting guards, none of them is a great fit. The Jazz would be able to keep Brewer and would be able to start AI as a combo guard. Most GMs sitting on the best record in the league do not like to make a big trade like this, but Jazz fans should remember that the team still does not have a go-to offensive player and during the last 10 games the Jazz have been mediocre. The Jazz are not headed deep into the playoffs with the group they have now, this year.

Everyone's hoping for KG to get sent to a good team to have a shot at the title, but when people start talking about AI they want to send him to pathetic teams like Seattle, Portland or Boston. If he goes to any of those places, then he will never win a title. Send him to Minnesota or Utah. Utah has the pieces to make it happen and would still be good after the trade.

Posted by Jeremiah J. | December 10, 2006 2:46 AM

"Of course from a Jazz fan's perspective, it might seem dumb."

It's a good deal for the Jazz, even with their success this year. But I can't see the rationale for the Sixers. Okur is nice, but from the Sixers point of view, I'd rather get a single high draft pick and contracts that expire this year or next.

As someone who'll be an Iverson fan rather than a Sixers fan for the next couple of years, I'd love to see this trade done. But as I said, I think the Sixers can do better for their purposes, even under fire-sale circumstances.

Posted by Petey | December 10, 2006 6:32 AM

Too bad for Jerry Sloan that J.R. Smith didn't end up in Salt Lake instead of Denver. With that one addition, they could've made the Western Finals a pick 'em with Dallas.

Posted by Petey | December 10, 2006 6:36 AM

"You could play Jamal Crawford at center, with Steve Francis at the four, Marbury at three, Iverson at two, and little Nate Robinson running the point."

Don't look now, but the Knicks seem to have the best '5' in the Eastern Conference...

I can't believe I'm saying this, but if they can stay healthy, I think they've got the best shot of any team to win the Atlantic.

Posted by Petey | December 10, 2006 6:40 AM

The Nets don't need AI - Vince and AI are a wash. During the Celtics - Nets game last night, the announcers were saying that the Sixers would want Al Jefferson in any trade. The way he looked last night (29 and 14), they'd be right to want him.

FYI, for anyone interested, the Nets-Suns game is going to be on NBATV today at 3:30.

Posted by Al | December 10, 2006 12:42 PM

Too bad for KG that the Wolves have very few tradable assets here that work under the cap - teams might want Foye, Smith or Griffin's expiring contract, but that doesn't free up any cap space. The only semi-marketable guy making any kind of money is Ricky Davis.

I think the basis of a trade to Minnesota would be Ricky Davis, Mike James and Foye. I'd consider that if I were Philly.

Posted by Al | December 10, 2006 12:51 PM

Chicago and Orlando are the only two that make really good sense.

Chicago's one big problem is that they don't have anyone who can be counted on to score game in and game out. Iverson changes that instantly, and they have enough expiring contracts to make it work. Ben Gordon, P.J. Brown, Mike Sweetney, Malik Allen, and their top pick (plus the right to trade picks with the Knicks) for Iverson.

I am actually stunned that nobody's mentioned Orlando yet; Orlando has Grant Hill's behemoth contract. They're already one of the east's three or four best teams; they make that trade, they're in the finals this year. Hill plus a first round pick for Iverson or Hill, Darko, Keyon Dooling, Bo Outlaw for Iverson and Dalembert. With the league's best rebounder already on the team, Dalembert is free to be a roving shot blocker. He can't be a dominant inside presence alone, but he'd be great in tandem. To take on that kind of salary commitment, though, Philly could no longer ask for a draft pick.

Memphis is another team that could play a part in two ways. Their only glaring weakness is the lack of a player who can score off the dribble, and they have Eddie Jones's expiring contract to trade. A package that brings them Iverson would change that, but since they're trying to sell the team, that kind of salary commitment prior to sale is bad for the price. I don't see it happening.

However, when Jim Grey initially (and mistakenly) said a deal to Minnesota was in the works, I went to the trade machine looking for other teams that made sense as partners. Matt is right; Minnesota could only offer crap in a two-team deal.

But Memphis is a perfect partner. If they're willing to give up next year's cap space for two years from now, Philly and Minnesota have the right combination of two-year contracts to put Grizzlies roughly $35 million under the cap in 2008, and the Grizz would probably get two first round picks for their trouble. So that's four first round picks in the next two years and enough money ($42 million including the mid-level exception) to resign their own guys and add a marquee free agent (or maybe two) in 2008. Now the fun part is this: the second best player of the 2007 free agent class wouldn't even be in the top ten for 2008.

Imagine a lineup of, for instance:

PG Darren Collison (drafted from UCLA)
SG Corey Maggette (wants to be a start somewhere)
SF Mike Miller
PF Shawn Marion (feels underappreciated in Phoenix)
C Pau Gasol
Bench: Hakim Warrick, Randy Foye (acquired in the Iverson trade from Minnesota), Stromile Swift, Roy Hibbert (drafted from G'town), and two other first round picks (preferably a good outside shooter or two)

That's a fairly young, athletic, highly skilled team, and it's within the realm of reason if the Grizzlies boot the 2007 offseason in favor of 2008 and make themselves players in the Iverson trade with the tantalizing Eddie Jones contract.

Posted by jhupp | December 10, 2006 1:06 PM

I can't believe I'm saying this, but if they can stay healthy, I think they've got the best shot of any team to win the Atlantic.

I can believe you're saying it, Petey. Of course you're saying it. They still suck.

Posted by Antid Oto | December 10, 2006 1:23 PM

Let's review a possible trade scenario involving the Celtics:

Philly sends AI to Boston; Boston sends Rajon Rondo, Wally Szczerbiak, Delonte West & Sebastian Telfair to Philly. ESPN Trade Machine says it's ok.

Why?

Philly: they need to ship AI and won't get no legit all-stars whatsoever in return. However, without AI they are in a sore need of good PG's (Kevin Ollie? ahem!) - thus, they get the young and very talented (though a bit raw) Rajon Rondo, a guy who has a tremendous upside; Seb Telfair, who's quick and decent; Delonte West, who's long been a personal favourite of mine and who works as a combo guard, coming off the bench and scoring a few buckets for them; and Wally Szczerbiak and his weak knees and spot-on shooting.

Sure, getting Wally makes no sense since they already have Kyle Korver, but he's just there as a filler, really. With Rondo, Seb and West they'd have a young and potentially very good backcourt, thus being able to let the godawful Kevin Ollie and his bloated $3m contract leave after this season.

Their starting line-up could be Telfair, Iguodala, Wally, Webber and Dalembert, with Kyle Korver, Delonte West and Rajon Rondo coming off the bench. In a couple of years, when Telfair's contract expires, they could well release him, since Rondo should already be much better than Seb by then.

Boston: they get a future Hall of Famer and pair him up with the extraordinaire Paul Pierce, sending away Wally's terrible contract and a couple of young guns. Instant contenders for the terrible Eastern Conference. Next step: fire Doc and make AI the player-coach (ho ho ho!)

Posted by Pedro Souza | December 10, 2006 2:16 PM

Don't look now, but the Knicks seem to have the best '5' in the Eastern Conference...

If by "Knicks" you mean "Magic" then, yes, I agree. Season-long, I'm not sure Curry'ss been playing any better than, say, Nenad Kristic, though obviously Curry's stepped things up lately. Also, though I see no evidence of this while watching the games, Etan Thomas appears to be having a really good season once you consider he's only playing 20 minutes per games for some reason.

Posted by Matthew Yglesias | December 10, 2006 2:28 PM

"If by "Knicks" you mean "Magic" then, yes, I agree."

I tend to think of Dwight-Monster as a '4' rather than a '5', but I readily concede the point to you here. He's better than Eddy.

"I'm not sure Curry'ss been playing any better than, say, Nenad Kristic"

While I agree that meth is a hell of a drug, and while it can certainly help you keep your residence clean and sparkling, it can also have adverse effects on your mental facilities.

Posted by Petey | December 10, 2006 2:54 PM

"I think the basis of a trade to Minnesota would be Ricky Davis, Mike James and Foye. I'd consider that if I were Philly."

Yup. Tho, Boston's remains the more logical destination here, since they can offer the Sixers two prospects, rather than just one.

Speaking of a Philly/Minny trade, the story of the punking of Jim Grey is the single most bizarre news story of the week.

Posted by Petey | December 10, 2006 3:00 PM

I'm not sure Curry'ss been playing any better than, say, Nenad Kristic

Having seen almost all Nets games and probably 1/3 of the Knicks games, I'd say Curry is having a better season than Krstic. While Curry's numbers aren't too much better than Krstic's, there's a big difference in how they play. Krstic gets most of his points shooting jumpers off of kick-outs from Carter, Kidd, and RJ's penetration. Curry, OTOH, gets his points by himself off of post-ups. Because of how he plays, Curry demands double teams, and opens up his teammates; Krstic is the beneficiary of the same FROM his teammates. That's a qualitative difference that the numbers don't capture. (What?! I'm arguing qualitative over quatitative?) If Curry can only improve his non-scoring stats (Reb, Blk, Ast), he'd certainly be one of the top centers in the league (he's averaging over 10 Reb/gm this month, which is a big improvement - it helps he's getting more minutes).

Agree, though, that Howard is a better center, if you consider him a center

Posted by Al | December 10, 2006 3:53 PM

If Curry can only improve his non-scoring stats (Reb, Blk, Ast), he'd certainly be one of the top centers in the league.

Well, sure, if, if, if.

Howard is a better center, if you consider him a center

Let's think about it this way. If everyone went crazy and the Wizards had to choose between trading Etan Thomas for Eddie Curry and trading Etan Thomas for Dwight Howard, I would lose sleep worrying about whether or not Howard's "really" a center before making the deal with Orlando.

Zaza Pachulia, who I don't think I'd heard of before this season, is also playing strangely well.

Posted by Matthew Yglesias | December 10, 2006 4:55 PM

Boston: they get a future Hall of Famer and pair him up with the extraordinaire Paul Pierce, sending away Wally's terrible contract and a couple of young guns. Instant contenders for the terrible Eastern Conference.

The thing of it is that Wally, like Pierce, is a significantly more efficient scorer than Iverson. So how well this winds up working for Boston sort of depends on where AI's shots end up coming from. Replacing the terrible production of Boston's many "promising" guards (Telfair, West, Rondo, etc.) with Iverson would be good, but there'd be some chance of things getting worse.

Posted by Matthew Yglesias | December 10, 2006 4:59 PM

Being from Minnesota, I am quite happy to trade crap for Allen Iverson so I fail to see the problem with that deal.

Posted by MNPundit | December 10, 2006 5:56 PM

Yglesias, you're credibility as a basketball pundit is nil until you properly repudiate the Zards new threads.

Posted by Pooh | December 10, 2006 6:19 PM

"Being from Minnesota, I am quite happy to trade crap for Allen Iverson so I fail to see the problem with that deal."

Chris Sheridan indicates that the Wolves are out of the running.

Posted by Petey | December 10, 2006 11:56 PM

"The thing of it is that Wally, like Pierce, is a significantly more efficient scorer than Iverson."

Once you factor in free throws, Wally turns out to only be a mildly more efficient scorer than Iverson. And, of course, Szczerbiak isn't nearly as potent or useful an offensive weapon as Iverson.

That said, I'd be astonished if a Boston/Philly trade involved Szczerbiak rather than Ratliff. Picking up Szczerbiak makes absolutely zero sense for Philly, while picking up Ratliff's contract makes lots of sense.

Posted by Petey | December 11, 2006 12:03 AM

Earl Boykins and Nene. I should mention that I'm not a capologist and so I have no idea whether this would work (actually, I assume it wouldn't).

And even then, I'm not sure this trade would make the Nuggets better, although Andre Miller coming off the bench would probably be pretty good.

Posted by Colorado Luis | December 11, 2006 9:20 AM