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Stop Foulin'

17 Dec 2006 02:39 am

Knicks-Nuggets degenerates into a big brawl between the players though unlike in the Palace none of the fans got involved. I wasn't watching the game live and, logically, it's a bit hard to figure out. Why would Collins foul like that in that situation? And egregious as that was, Carmelo Anthony is a highly paid professional basketball player who really ought to know better than throwing that punch. I sympathize, I guess, with the impulse to stick up for your teammate, but nobody in the Nuggets' organization, Smith included, is going to benefit from that. Isaiah Thomas, in a rare moment of total clarity, correctly remarks "This isn't even a rivalry."

It'll be interesting to see how the suspensions play out . . . the West being as tight as it is, Denver can ill-afford to drop games because their starters were fighting with the Knicks. And why were those dudes on the floor at that point in the game in the first place?

I will say, though, that as with the Palace brawl I find some of the pious sportswriter reaction to this hard to take. Chris Mannix, for example, "You want to know why parents don't bring their kids to games? See how that brawl spilled into the first row? Maybe because parents think there is a danger of an errant fist winding up in their kids face." Please. The danger of NBA game attending-related injury is obviously incredibly small. Every Wizards game I attend features many parents with their kids. You would see more kids at the games if (a) the tickets were cheaper, or (b) the league scheduled more of those weekend afternoon games. It's bad to see something like this happen, but there's no call for everyone to start acting like naive little children who are shocked, shocked to see athletes fighting.

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Comments (36)

Quit being so coldly analytical. On the other hand, what a disgrace.

I went to an NBA game and a hockey game broke out.

On the other hand, coming from Oregon, the Ducks are undefeated and the Blazers have won 4 in a row.

As I understand it, Smith had just thrown down a fancy dunk, and NY was upset that Denver's starters were in the game with a few minutes to go in a blowout, and they weren't about to let him have another poster dunk. More tantalizing, ESPN also reported that Thomas had warned Anthony a couple of minutes before the brawl to stay out of the paint, indicating that NY was planning on committing a hard foul. (Maybe this is the excuse Dolan needs to send Isaiah back to his family.)

I'm not sure I'd say that Anthony "started" the fight; his punch came later. But his punch-and-run-away is going to stay with him forever, I'd bet.

I'm not sure I'd say that Anthony "started" the fight; his punch came later. But his punch-and-run-away is going to stay with him forever, I'd bet.

Yes, that's right. I saw a misleading highlight clip and changed the post.

"And why were those dudes on the floor at that point in the game in the first place?"

Because George Karl was trying to teach Zeke a lesson about Karl's fellow NC alum Larry Brown.

"And egregious as that was, Carmelo Anthony is a highly paid professional basketball player who really ought to know better than throwing that punch."

The only possible explanation is that 'Melo thought Mardy Collins was a snitch.

If everyone would keep quiet, there would be no problems.

But his punch-and-run-away is going to stay with him forever, I'd bet.

Oh, please. What does that mean? His max contract is going to dominate anything else ascribed to him. Also, agree entirely with MY on pious sportswriters. Well, not "entirely," as I think one of them should be ritually beaten to death at the opening of each NBA season.

I'm not going to defend what Robinson, Collins, Smith or Anthony did (I predict Carmelo will get the longest suspension, but Nate Robinson deserves the longest suspension) but they're young and young people do stupid things. It's obvious George Karl was using his players for some petty payback against the Knicks organization and I expect we'll find out that Isaiah still has a lot of Bad Boy in him and, hockey-style, called for a goon to start something. I hope Isaiah Thomas gets a suspension out of this in addition to the various players.

What kills me is that we're maybe a week removed from various people advising that the Mavs should have hammered Kobe, again and again, to prevent Kobe from getting 62 points. A few weeks before that, Jerry Sloan said that if he were still playing, he'd hammer Kobe till Sloan fouled out, rather than let Kobe get off. In both cases the idiot sports writers applauded the "toughness" shown. Fuck them. The development of this story is going to depend primarily on: (a)the NY media hatred of Isiah, (b) Carmelo's association with thug culture, post-snitch video, (c) and Carmelo's tattoos. And we're going to have to listen to sports commenters biliously go on and on about this and the state of the NBA game for another year. In the midst of an unbelievably fun season.

"and Carmelo's tattoos"

Why the fuck does 'Melo have a Warner Brothers logo tattoo? I hope he's getting paid for it, but seriously doubt that's the case.

"In the midst of an unbelievably fun season."

Not if you paid for League Pass to watch Allen Iverson, it ain't...

I think the entire league should be suspended until Bubbachuck gets out of NBA prison.

And finally, I think Mike P is a snitch. Get him!!!

And Spackerman is the mole...

And finally picking the over/under of punishment to both teams. Between the total of all games suspended from all players, I put the over/under at 30.5.

In reality, 'Melo should get 2. Smith and Robinson get 1 each.

Of course, Stern-world is not part of the reality based community, so I think my 30.5 over/under will come close.

The fracas disn't seem that dreadful to me. There are three or four brawls per season in baseball that are at least that bad. Of course most of them are more ethnically mixed, and do not provide the nation's sportswriters and talk jocks with as much of an opportunity to go on about the horrifying spectacle of fighting negroes, and the depravities of street culture, thugs, tattoos and corn rows.

Of all the stupid unwritten rules in sports, the stupidest has to be the one whereby a winning team is supposed to take responsibility for the pathetic failure of their opponents, and intuit the correct time to stop competing and throw the team manager and ball boys into the game so as not to humiliate the losers. Here's my secret formula for not getting humiliated on the court: don't get your ass kicked. And if you do get your ass kicked, just get your ass kicked like a man instead of crying about it and throwing a temper tantrum.

And remember that the fans who shelled out a fortune for the game did not pay all that money to watch a bunch of lazy-ass Knick losers going through the motions with the Nuggests C team. They paid their money and are entitled to see Carmelo Anthony play all the way up to the final buzzer. The Knicks really are pathetic.

I love the Mannix quote: "See how that brawl spilled into the first row? Maybe because parents think there is a danger of an errant fist winding up in their kids face."

Kids in the first row at an NBA game? Which silver spoon kids are those? I though the first row at an NBA game was reserved for local celebrities, and for corporate fat cats and their guests and call girls.

Because George Karl was trying to teach Zeke a lesson about Karl's fellow NC alum Larry Brown.

Bingo. There's more to the Karl-Larry Brown connection than both being UNC alums - Karl first coached under Doug Moe (and still has Moe on his staff), and Moe learned under... Brown. It's pretty safe to say Karl and Brown are close. Seems to me to be no question that Karl was trying to show up Zeke.

I watched the late night rerun on MSG. First interesting thing is that Isaiah was already warning Carmelo not to dunk about a minute before the fight (there were a few shots of those two talking, and that's what I understand they were talking about) - so it was clear that Isaiah understood that Karl was trying to show him up. I don't know whether Collins was sent in specifically to send that message to Karl - I wouldn't doubt it - but obviously the players knew what was going on. (And it was clear even to the announcers that something odd was going on - Clyde Frazier was wondering on TV a minute before the fight why the Denver starters were still on the floor.)

Second, the Collins foul was a flagrant, bu it wsn't that bad. He didn't even knock him over! It was a garden variety hard foul. I understand the pushing and shoving afterwards, but what really escalated it was Nate Robinson coming in and tackling the guy. For Nate Robinson of all people to talk afterwards about not showing the other team up is utterly ridiculous - this is a guy who last month tried a bounce dunk in a game! He's the last guy to be talking about showing up the other team.

Third, 'Melo's punch was bad. Not only was it was a complete Kermit Washington-type sucker punch, but it was also really, really hard. You listen to the fight, and normally you just hear the crowd, but the punch was so loud that you could hear it distinctly. The worst part is, though, was that 'Melo ran away after the punch! I mean, he punched the guy and then sprinted in the other direction. What a p*ssy!

I think 'Melo gets 10 games, at least. His sucker punch was bad. George Karl's not going to get anything, but the Nuggets fan and owners really have to be asking what the hell he was doing potentially ruining their season just to show up Zeke. What an ass.

The development of this story is going to depend primarily on: (a)the NY media hatred of Isiah, (b) Carmelo's association with thug culture, post-snitch video, (c) and Carmelo's tattoos.

Yeah, I think this is pretty accurate.

"Why the fuck does 'Melo have a Warner Brothers logo tattoo? I hope he's getting paid for it, but seriously doubt that's the case."

West Baltimore. Apparently you haven't been keeping up with your daily Yglesias-required dose of The Wire.

Dan, thank you for beating me to my comment: the knicks are a shitty team. they will sometimes get whomped. they better learn to deal with it, not emit stupid whines about people "showing them up."

nor, for that matter, do i have much patience with amateur psychologists trying out their theories about karl and larry brown and isaiah, but i digress.

al, i'm sorry that you buy into the kermit washington sucker-punch version of events: rudy t. ran into that punch....

Yes. Rudy Tomjanovich came running full speed from the other end of the court, and Washington just turned and punched as he was turning. Nasty damage, but Washington was just responding to the sound of thundering hooves.

No basketball nasty fight story is complete without a reference to OSU/Minnesota 1968.

The most menacing-looking square off, all time, and I'm not sure if a punch were actually thrown**, was the one between Maurice Lucas and Darryl Dawkins. Dawkins, after exiting, took out his anger on the bathroom. I can't remember the tale enough to say if he ripped out a sink or a toilet.

**it's reported that Lucas did throw a punch, but my memory just says "no". They paired off like some crazy mix of Queensbury Rules and street fight bravado, but I don't remember an actual punch.

OK, my bad - then this sucker punch was worse than the Kermit punch. (PS I can't believe I just saw West Ham beat ManU...)

then this sucker punch was worse than the Kermit punch.

Who cares? They're not knights, and this wasn't a fight for God and country. And the Tomjanovich injury was an aberration. I'd rather take a sucker punch from 'Melo than get clotheslined by McHale, "inadvertently" elbowed by Malone, or potentially have my legs taken out from under me by Bowen. 'Melo should be suspended and Robinson should be some number greater than that which 'Melo gets; other than that, one game a piece and a mandatory group hug. Naked group hug.

There are three or four brawls per season in baseball that are at least that bad.

Exactly right. And baseball players have also fought with fans in the stands. I'm sure part of the differing reaction is due to race, another part is due to the fact that basketball happens in a much smaller space, so fights are more dramatic, and I think Stern's "zero tolerance" policy makes it seem that basketball has a "problem" with controlling its players, whereas "players compete, sometimes they'll fight" would help it all blow over more quickly.

Carmelo is going to get eaten alive on ATH and PTI! What a baby. Anyone with ten foot long arms can land a punch. It takes a very special kind of baby giant/giant baby to backtrack and run away as quickly as he did. Not to mention the play was dirty and that whatever amount of respect I had for him is lost.

These are the times when, if it's an appropriate forum, I upload my file of that famous photo of Larry Bird and Dr. J. trying to kill each other. I oughta superimpose the text Straight Thuggin' at the bottom.

It isn't a question of when the winning team should stop competing, it's about not leaving your best players in the game so they a)don't get so tired, and b)don't get hurt. Having Anthony in the game at that point does NOTHING to help the Nuggets toward the goal of winning an NBA championship, and as it turned out, it hurt them.

I'd give Collins & Melo 2, Nate 3, Smith & Jeffries 1, but the real world penalties are bound to be more severe.

As I said in the other thread, I think 10 for melo

5 each for Robinson and JR Smith
2-3 for Collins
1 for everyone else on the court (maybe, maybe 2 for Jeffries)
and perhaps a few more automatic 1 gamers for people leaving the bench (I think I saw Nene on the court in one of the highlights for example...)

. . .

I can't believe it either, Al. Been in a pissy mood all day because of it. Especially when they showed pictures of Larsson up in the stands. I was yelling at the TV, Warren Sapp-style "put a jersey on, put a jersey on..." On day's like today, we miss Keano, as neither Carrick nor Scholes (at this stage) are really going to bustle through the middle to get a crucial goal.

You might be right Devin, but that's Karl's business and the business of Nuggets fans. Maybe they have grounds to criticize Karl, but it's none of the Knicks' business.

The Nuggets have had a tough road trip and had lost 3 out of 4. Maybe Karl just wanted to help his guys get off, have some fun and get their mojo back. Protecting your starters isn't a universal rule - there are other factors to consider.

"Maybe Karl just wanted to help his guys get off, have some fun and get their mojo back. "

Maybe. But considering the previous Larry Brown subplot between Karl and Zeke, I'd say it's a pretty unlikely explanation.

If a baseball team is up by 10 runs in the 8th inning and starts stealing bases, a beanball is reliably coming their way. Karl is far too savvy a basketball guy to not know he was violating the code in a similar way.

Re: 'Melo's WB logo tat...

"West Baltimore. Apparently you haven't been keeping up with your daily Yglesias-required dose of The Wire."

Thx. I shoulda been able to figure that one out.

And I'm too lazy to go google you folks a link, but in the past month there was a Melo/Wire party with some excellent photos. The whole cast was there with Melo and J.R. Smith.

It seems like they're considering suspending Thomas.

Try here for Melo-Wire goodness.

As a hockey fan, the fact that this is a big deal amuses me.

Tell Mannix the kid is safe. Has he ever seen an NBA fight? These guys can't land a punch on each other, I don't think they'd be able to hit a smaller target.

I guess it was the WAY over on Petey's 30.5


Comments closed December 31, 2006.

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