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Credibility

13 Mar 2007 04:12 pm

New Dem Dispatch on Iran from the DLC calls for "Effective diplomacy backed by the credible threat of force." Obviously, I think it's the case that diplomacy can be rendered more effective through credible threats of force. Unfortunately, an awful lot of people -- especially hawkish Democrats seeking out a sensible middle ground here -- seem slightly confused about the concept of credibility. The credibility of a threat is overwhelmingly an objective property of the threat, and not something that's seriously altered by, say, noting that "all options are on the table." Thus, important aspects of the wisdom of threatening to use force against Iran actually wind up reducing to the wisdom of actually using force against Iran. Or, in the immortal words of Outkast, "don't pull that thang out, unless you plan to bang."

The reason people in the sensible center don't think we should just go bomb Iran next week is that it's quite unclear how much this would really set the nuclear program back, while reasonably clear that it would improve Iran's diplomatic situation and strengthen the hand of the hardliners at home. If I thought (as, say, Reuel Marc Gerecht does) that was wrong; if I thought airstrikes would significantly set back the Iranian program, weaken the Iranian regime, and leave our diplomatic efforts against Iran intact, then it would seem to me that the case for actually bombing after a period of curt diplomacy ("verifiably disarm or we'll bomb you") would be strong. But if you don't believe that -- and I think the sensible center mostly doesn't -- then the threat isn't credible. If a bombing campaign would do more to strengthen the regime and relax its growing diplomatic isolation than it would to set back the nuclear program, then the regime would be relatively eager for us to bomb them. Insofar as they think counterproductive airstrikes are the likely alternative to negotiations, they're less -- not more -- likely to negotiate.

That's the crux of the matter. Credible threats are good. But the threats must actually be credible. If your threat is credible, you can make it clearly and plainly. But it's clear from the overall policy proposal that the DLC (rightly) doesn't regard our threats as very credible. As they say, "our security goals can best be advanced by maintaining a united front with leading powers and world bodies that share our interest in stemming nuclear proliferation and discrediting terrorism." But if the threat's not credible, you're best off not making the threat; you can't magically turn a non-credible threat into a credible one by wishing.

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Comments (52)

If the threat of force isn't credible, should I stop being worried about the Bush adminstration stupidly bombing Iran?

If the threat of force isn't credible, should I stop being worried about the Bush adminstration stupidly bombing Iran?

Sadly, no.

Threatening force all the time is how you treat people you don't respect or view as having equal rights to you. Perhaps we should actually talk with the Iranians from a position of openness and respect for their sovereignty?

I realize this shows me to be a naive wimp, unaware of the evil nature of the Iranian state and nation. But I can't help but reflect on the fact that they are a sovereign nation that has made no aggressive move toward us, and has in fact been open to negotiation and providing assistance (e.g. during the Afghanistan war).

Now I'm confused. I thought a credible threat was one that the threatener was likely to follow up on. So if the threats of bombing aren't credible, that means that we're not going to bomb.

Perhaps another way of saying this: at times in the post, I think you're mistakenly reverting to the assumption that our foreign policy is run by sane people.

The threats scare the oil markets, which worry about disruptions and reduced supply. This forces the price up, which increases revenues to Iran. So the proper Iranian foreign policy is to poke us enough so that we keep making threats while not so much that we actually bomb them. We're pretty easy to read so I expect that they will continue to manipulate us successfully.

"If I thought airstrikes would significantly set back the Iranian program, weaken the Iranian regime, and leave our diplomatic efforts against Iran intact, then it would seem to me that the case for actually bombing [blah blah blah] would be strong."

So I guess the ethical and legal objections to launching an aggressive war based on questionable and/or partial intelligence of a possibly non-existent threat don't count for beans.

And here I was thinking Yglesias had learned something from the Iraq fiasco. More fool me.

the US and Israeli threat to bomb Iran IS credible, which is why they're trying to build a nuclear weapon.

I think you're confusing two things: the credibility that we will follow up on our threat to bomb versus the improvement in our position that would result from bombing. Both are relevant, but are two different things.

There is a certain philosophy that has gained a lot of followers in the last decade that the correct thing to do is to appear crazy, so the threat of violence is always there. This assumes that war could be bad for the US, but it would be worse for whoever we are fighting and since we don't care about the cost on our side since we're crazy, people will give us what we want so we don't start a fight with them.

Ignoring the fact that we do in fact care about the cost we impose on ourselves, this philosophy is still ineffective. The problem with being crazy is that even if we promise not to attack you in exchange for something, we might break that promise and attack you anyways. So its not in Iran's benefit to negotiate with us because we're unreliable. This is in fact the current state of affairs- pretty pathetic, I know. We need to address this poor reputation and stop issuing threats that lack credibility of the form Yglesias is talking about.

I think this is wildly wrongheaded, and that MY is conflating types of threats. We can threaten to stop or slow the nuclear program by bombing, or we can threaten to fuck them up by bombing. Both seem like things most countries would want to avoid. Moreover, for some value of "go bitchcakes," we can probably slow the program down--we could, after all, nuke them. Rather, the argument has to be that an attack will leave our interests worse off than before. Such analysis can fold in the possibility that we could attack Iran and stop its program and yet counsel us to hold off.

Limiting the issue to whether or not we can prevent Iran from advancing its nuclear program through attack seems like a bad, bad concession.

There is a certain philosophy that has gained a lot of followers in the last decade that the correct thing to do is to appear crazy, so the threat of violence is always there.

I think it's a philosophy that's older than that--at least as old as the Nixon Administration. And I think the threat of violence is always there, by virtue of our ginormous military size.

Neil: The operative word is not "credible". It's "threat". The extent to which the US bombing Iran improves Iran's position is the extent to which it's not a threat.

the US no longer "appears crazy". we are, by everyone's account, in every country around the world, actually crazy. so it's not a threat. it's real. and other countries now appear to be preparing themselves to deal with this "threat". not just Iran, but China and Russia too. the fact that other countries in the Mideast arent similarly preparing themselves to deal with this "threat" -- as Lebanon probably wishes it had before last summer -- is not because they "appear dumb". it's because they are dumb. they dont understand or are incapable of dealing w reality.

Now I'm confused. I thought a credible threat was one that the threatener was likely to follow up on.

I had the same confusion.

Possibly, a 'credible threat' is not just one that the threatener is likely to follow up one, but is also one which they are capable of pulling off, in the sense of actually achieving whatever end the threatened behavior is supposed to be a means too.

So on this analysis, a US threat to forcibly stop Iran from going forward on its alleged nuclear program would be deficient in credibility not because Bush et al. won't follow through on it, but because even if they try to they can't really pull it off.

I don't know if this is what was meant, but it's the only way I can think of that it makes sense.

Or in other words, don't pull that thang out, unless you plan to bang, and are additionally fully capable of banging (i.e. you can actually get it up).

No one has convinced me that Iran having nukes is a real problem. The IDF has 200+ nukes, and look how well they are doing. Pakistan has nukes, as does India. Obviously, having nukes protects sovereign nations from invasion by the US military. It worked for Pakistan and North Korea, and it can work for Iran as well. The sooner Iran gets nukes the better, if only to keep the world safer from crazies like Bush and his ilk.

Matt, it is interesting to see you claim that the "sensible center" should decide whether or not to bomb Iran solely on the basis of whether this would be strategically advantageous to the US. Why is it, I wonder, that folks like you feel compelled to COMPLETELY DISCOUNT the potential catastrophic loss of human life that would go along with airstrikes on Iran? Must be afraid somebody gonna call ye a pinko wimp, er somethin'. Quick, get me some Toby Keith fired up on the CD! And make that a DOUBLE Coors (Lite)!

The credibility of a threat is overwhelmingly an objective property of the threat, and not something that's seriously altered by, say, noting that "all options are on the table."


I think this theory only works if you assume two things:
1. the ‘objective property’ of the threat is understood and agreed upon by all parties.
2. all parties act rationally.

Unfortunately, neither of these conditions tend to be true in foreign affairs. Governments miscalculate threats all the time. They also do stupid and irrational things all the time. Thus, rhetoric does matter. Explicitly taking the threat force off the table may sometimes be a mistake, even when the use of force is actually a bad idea.

Is it a credible assertion that we should attack Iran? No.

Is it a credible assertion that we will attack Iran? That's a much tougher call.

I see. "the case for actually bombing after a period of curt diplomacy ("verifiably disarm or we'll bomb you") would be strong."

Imagine this written by an Iranian but referring to Israel or the USA. Not some lunatic blog commenter but a prominent "moderate" pundit. They don't actually hate you for your freedoms. They hate you because you glibly advocate killing them to advance your "interests".

Even IF the US wasn't currently ruled by war criminals thugs and maniacs this would be in incredibly monsterous world view. And that's from the "liberal" side of the aisle. A mess that may well be beyond repair.

From the article: "New Dem Dispatch on Iran from the DLC calls for "Effective diplomacy backed by the credible threat of force.""

Way to play to the neocons, Dems!

What you want to be saying instead is this: 'Only effective diplomacy can bring a mutually peaceful resolution to the problem of Iran's nuclear programs.' This telegraphs a peaceful intent, a recognition of the problem, respect for Iran, and doesn't rule out violence. It says: "Just hold off until after Bush is gone, OK? I mean, really. You don't want a war, really, and neither do we, really. You got some hardliner political mojo from us, so let's just chill out now, OK?"

Part of the 'act crazy' version of foreign policy is that there has to be a straight guy who sounds reasonable by comparison, even if he ends up getting exactly what the crazy guy is demanding. Democrats need to wake up and realize that Bush doesn't want them to play that role of reason. He'll sabotage it in every way possible, but he won't go to war with Iran.

The problem with the Bush administration is not so much that they want to invade foreign countries on a whim (though that *is* a problem), but that they're willing to destroy the US in the process.

Enoch Root, eh? Now there's an obscure handle.

'Only effective diplomacy can bring a mutually peaceful resolution to the problem of Iran's nuclear programs.'

What problem is that?

Or has the US actually presented any credible evidence that Iran is planning to break it's obligations to the NPT treaty ?

Or are we supposed to believe that a country that makes up intelligence to invade countries and reduce them to a slaughterhouse somehow believes it has the right to simply repeat the same claptrap again 4 year laters?

And the supposed 'progressive' commentators simply go along with it. again.

Matt, it is interesting to see you claim that the "sensible center" should decide whether or not to bomb Iran solely on the basis of whether this would be strategically advantageous to the US. Why is it, I wonder, that folks like you feel compelled to COMPLETELY DISCOUNT the potential catastrophic loss of human life that would go along with airstrikes on Iran?

Hm...my understanding of the situation is that airstrikes on Iran would be unlikely to cause "catastrophic loss of human life." I wouldn't -- and don't -- completely discount the interests of Iranian civilians in thinking about this, but I'll happily concede that I discount them pretty heavily. American foreign policy should primarily be about what's good for Americans.

Imagine this written by an Iranian but referring to Israel or the USA. Not some lunatic blog commenter but a prominent "moderate" pundit. They don't actually hate you for your freedoms. They hate you because you glibly advocate killing them to advance your "interests".

Well, prominent Iranian government officials do say nasty stuff -- nastier than anything I said about Iran -- about Israel and the USA all the time. But for the record, yes, I agree. Iranian-American tensions are primarily about regional strategic issues and not anybody hating anyone because of freedom.

My proposal would be that we seek to reconcile our interests; Iran puts verifiable safeguards on its nuclear program (our main interest here), says they're sorry for the hostage thing (politically important in the USA), and agrees to back any settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict that the Palestinians may agree to in the future. In exchange the United States stops sanctioning Iran, extends diplomatic relations to its government (including a 'no bombing' promise), and agrees to accommodate Iran's interests in Iraq and Afghanistan rather than using those countries as bases from which to try to overthrow the Iranian government.

I wouldn't -- and don't -- completely discount the interests of Iranian civilians in thinking about this, but I'll happily concede that I discount them pretty heavily. American foreign policy should primarily be about what's good for Americans.

And that's the last sentence written by Matthew Ygelsias that I'll ever read.

This is what passes for the left in this country? Sad.

matt. c'mon. Iran is supposed to "apologize for the whole hostage thing"? should we first apologize for the Shah and our support for his bloodthirsty security apparatus SAVAK? or maybe for Kermit Roosevelt and the CIA's overthow of Iran's democratically-elected government under Mossadegh? enuf with the apologies. they dont owe us anything

My proposal would be that we seek to reconcile our interests; Iran puts verifiable safeguards on its nuclear program (our main interest here), says they're sorry for the hostage thing (politically important in the USA), and agrees to back any settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict that the Palestinians may agree to in the future. In exchange the United States stops sanctioning Iran, extends diplomatic relations to its government (including a 'no bombing' promise), and agrees to accommodate Iran's interests in Iraq and Afghanistan rather than using those countries as bases from which to try to overthrow the Iranian government

I think you are badly misreading our hand and their hand. The kids at the Flophouse should immediately institute a poker night (if not already in existence), and make MY's participation mandatory.

Other countries are perceiving this as a real possibility and more than a threat. Arms sales to the Middle East are booming. We have rushed anti-missile systems all over the ME in the last six months.

This is the ultimate credible insane threat, unless Iran does what Bush says he will announce missiles and planes are on their way.

First an obvious point: different threats of force have different degrees of credibility and immediacy. There is no simple cleavage between the credible and incredible one. For example, the law against assault is backed up in our communities by a reasonably credible threat of force - not because there are people running around with guns held to the heads of potential perpetrators - that would be an even more credible threat of force - but because there are police stations and police crusisers nearby with guns available should they be needed.

Iranian attacks on the US and its interests are very credibly deterred because the Iranians know that an attack on the US would meet with a powerful military counter-response. That deterrent effect is present in our potent military, in the strong and continuing will of the American people to defend themselves and in the Congressional power to call out a military response to attacks. It doesn't need to be made super-duper-ultra-credible by giving the president his own holster filled with nuclear missiles and the unrestricted license to use them.

Another point: It may be true that diplomacy can sometimes be aided by a threat of force with a high degree of credibility. But it can also be damaged by too high a degree of credibility in the threat of force. There are several reasons for this, but one is that if a threat is too intense and provocative, the felt need to make defensive preparations and counter-threats can drain away the commitment to diplomacy. Another problem is that states are always on guard to preserve their own self-defense "credibility". If a state is seen to back down under an obvious threat of violence, others may conclude that intimidation is the best way of dealing with the state. Thus states are very reluctant to back down once the guns are drawn, so to speak, because backing down sends a lousy message to potential adversaries. For diplomacy to work you have to give the other side some climbdown room. They must be capable of accepting the deal without being seen to buckle under the threat of force. No state wants to be labelled a submissive, and avoiding that label may lead it to fight even when the odds oppose it. My view is that it is part of White House strategy to lay the threats on so thick and heavy that the Iranians have no dignified climbdown room left.

A third point: some threats are in themselves illegal and illegitimate. From common law to international law, it is accepted throughout the civilized world that not every credible threat of force is permissible. There are some actions that the other side is entitled to perform by right and it is thus impermissible to threaten to use force to impede the exercise of thoise rights. The creation of systems of rules, and our solemnization of those rules and continued respect for them help protect us all. While Matt has learned may things perhaps from the Iraq debacle, it is puzzling that international law and classical internationalist approaches still seem to have lttle impact on his thinking. (By "internationalism" I don't just mean international coalitions or cooperation of various kind.)

Matt also appears in several of his posts to be in the "Iran is building a nuke but there is nothing we can do about it" camp. I tend instead toward the views that (i) the claim that Iran is at work in any serious way on a nuclear weapon has been by no means established or even rendered probable and (ii) if they are working on a nuclear weapon there are many things we can do about it, beyond the limited Bush approach of sanctions and threats - probably war - based on speculation.

Iran has a right under the NPT, to which it is a signatory, to a domestic nuclear program. The challenge for international law and diplomacy is to see to it that Iran is able to exercise those rights to nuclear energy, while at the same time providing other countries with a reasonable degree of assurance that its is not violating its NPT obligations not to build nuclear weapons. This can be done, but not if the problem is treated on the western shootout model.

Matt - I'm really disappointed in your flip comments about american foreign policy - ie doing whatever is in our interests regardless of the impact on civilians. Are you saying foreign policy should be amoral? Right now it is probably in our interest to obliterate Anbar province since we cannot seem to distinquish between the good and bad guys. Should we follow the old adage about "kill'em all and let G-d sort them out? Why not just unleash the nuclear arsenal and be done with it. I guess you are one of those Americans who believes one American is worth 1000 of those sand nig.... Sad, truely sad.

matt. c'mon. Iran is supposed to "apologize for the whole hostage thing"? should we first apologize for the Shah and our support for his bloodthirsty security apparatus SAVAK? or maybe for Kermit Roosevelt and the CIA's overthow of Iran's democratically-elected government under Mossadegh? enuf with the apologies. they dont owe us anything

Yes, sorry, I forgot to put that in. In pratice, an Iranian apology for the hostages is going to be necessary. Conversely, in exchange for that they're going to want us to apologize for the overthrow of Mossadegh. This is a little childish, but there are domestic politics in both countries that require it.

Ah, but here is the silver lining from the cloud of acid rain that was the Bush administration. Even though it might be completely illogical to bomb Iran, the threat is credible, because we have people who are not quite right in the head running the country. Therefore, they don't know that we don't think that it wouldn't set them back, because we might.

I like to use the BATNA (best alternative to negotiated agreement) framework to evaluate the strength of bargaining points.

In this case the Iranian BATNA is "get bombed by USA". As Matt points out, this probably does not seem too bad to them.

The USA's BATNA is "bomb IRAN"; trouble is, there are differing views of the desirability of this. The Bush admin. like the idea on its face, no-one else really cares for it.

If one doesn't like the "bomb Iran" option then the only way actually to do anything is to change those perceptions of BATNA -- either make bombing more frightening to the Iranians (by authorizing nuclear strikes for example), or LESS attractive to the admin.

Saying that "all options are on the table" seems to do little for the former, and actively impede the latter. Thus, anyone saying it is merely positioning themselves personally and doesn't care MOST about the issue at hand.

Clever dems should be thinking of CREDIBLE ways to make "Bomb Iran" less attractive to the Bushies. What can dems do? Control budgets. The answer lies there.

This is what passes for the left in this country? Sad.

It is sad! Critics to my left, I celebrate you! Someday together we can create a new world where you pass for the left in this country and I pass for the center.

Right now it is probably in our interest to obliterate Anbar province since we cannot seem to distinquish between the good and bad guys. Should we follow the old adage about "kill'em all and let G-d sort them out? Why not just unleash the nuclear arsenal and be done with it. I guess you are one of those Americans who believes one American is worth 1000 of those sand nig.... Sad, truely sad.

That's absurd, I think no such thing. There's a difference between making what's good for Americans the primary concern of US policy and running around acting like genocidal maniacs. What's more, I don't even see why you seem to think mass slaughter of Arabs would serve our interests.

Would it truly be in the U.S. interest to bomb Iran, even if Iran was building a nuke and bombing would set back their program? I seriously question that. There is a long term tendency for military interventions to backfire. Say we delay Iran getting a nuke by 10-15 years, but when they do get one they *really really hate us*, much more than they otherwise would have. Is this more in our interests than having them get a nuke earlier, but be friendlier to the U.S. and more amenable to working with us? At the least, I would say Matt tossed this conclusion off much too lightly.

Too much of this debate takes for granted that the U.S. and Iran will always be hostile, and doesn't weight heavily enough the need for investing in some possibility for friendly relations in the future.

In terms of non-military alternatives, this discussion is wack. The Iranians themselves have already proposed a much more robust solution: A regional nonproliferation treaty. But - oops - the U.S. won't wear it because that would convert Iran from Axis of Evil to strategic partner. As well as requiring a certain Country that Shall Not Be Named signing on.

Matt, thanks for clarifying your position on Iranian civilians, also known as fellow human beings--many of whom are not Iranian because they chose to move there, but merely because they happened to be born there. The remarkable amorality of discounting someone's life because they happen to be born outside of your country boggles my mind. That is the kind of thinking (by Al Qaeda) that led to 9/11. Imagine this statement following 9/11: "We fairly heavily discounted American lives in deciding to bomb the World Trade Center, because Al Qaeda foreign policy should be primarily about what is good for Al Qaedans."

Also, since I haven't been a regular reader of your blog, are you in favor of the doctrine of preemptive military action?

Via Matt

"In exchange the United States stops sanctioning Iran, extends diplomatic relations to its government (including a 'no bombing' promise), and agrees to accommodate Iran's interests in Iraq and Afghanistan rather than using those countries as bases from which to try to overthrow the Iranian government"

Actually the US has already issued 3 "no bombing" promises. The UN Charter, the Geneva Conventions and the agreement to end the hostage crisis. But these binding treaties are no longer operative it seems.

Jeysus Milhouse Christ, you want the Iranians to apologise for a hostage taking that (IIRC) produced no casualties? Try apologising for installing the Shah, arming and supporting Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war and the shooting down of the Iran Air civilian airliner.

That and outright admission that killing some unspecified number of (new) innocent Iranian civilians is to be "discounted pretty severely". Words fail.

"We fairly heavily discounted American lives in deciding to bomb the World Trade Center, because Al Qaeda foreign policy should be primarily about what is good for Al Qaedans."

I'd be astonished if the people who support Al Qaeda don't think at least that. Is it your impressing that they folded American civilian interest into their bombing decision?

No, I do NOT think that al Qaeda folded American civilian interest into their bombing decision. American foreign policy at its best has AVOIDED discounting civilian lives--it's one of the things that has distinguished us from al Qaeda and gained us legitimacy in the eyes of other nations (legitimacy squandered by the unnecessary, indefensible, preemptive Iraq war).

American foreign policy at its best has AVOIDED discounting civilian lives--it's one of the things that has distinguished us from al Qaeda and gained us legitimacy in the eyes of other nations

American foreign policy at its best took into account the PR hit associated with openly discounting civilian deaths and the benefits of establishing certain norms about the type of fighting allowed. Our own interests have always been paramount. I'm not actually sure how you would choose between my account and yours.

This has already been mentioned in part, but: OTHER reasons not to bomb Iran,

1. Loss of life in Iran
2. Possible retaliation by Iran against American soldiers in Iraq
3. Open rebellion by the Shia in Iraq, troubled supply lines.
4. The loss of any shred of respectability your country has left you.

Not to mention that its hard to see how American interests are actually threatened by an Iranian bomb. And don't you think the bit about the Iranians wanting to be bombed is a bit absurd? To wish for the deaths of thousands of their own countrymen, at the least? No Sir, this is talk of madness.

Others have touched on this in the comments, Matt, but your argument is weakened by its one-sidedness. The credibility of a threat is two-sided and primarily based on perceptions, not objective facts. Yes, America would have specific goals in any use of force against Iran. And yes, the way things look now we are unlikely to achieve the goal we have given our highest priority: setting back the nuclear program.

But these facts don't mean we can't still project a "credible threat of force" -- what about the way Iran sees things? We might not completely disable their nuclear program, but we might set it back enough to make a big difference in their minds. Or maybe they are panicking because we actually know where all the sensitive facilities are (unlikely, yes) and they think we can take it out (even if we think we can't, they might not assume that). Or maybe the domestic political situation is too fragile to hold up under any sustained bombing by the US, no matter how low casualties would be.

Basically, the credibility of a threat is two-sided. Both sides inform each other, but the American perception of its own "credibility" is still quite separate from Iran's perception of our "credibility." Unfortunately, we don't know much about Iran's domstic situation, so this sort of thing is hard to judge. But it is still worth trying.

What a stupid post.
...Obviously, I think it's the case that diplomacy can be rendered more effective through credible threats of force...
Gee, did Ghandi have a credible threat of force? Are the British rulers of India. Did the Soviets have a credible threat of force against the Eastern Block? Of course they did. Is the Czech Republic an Eastern BLock satellite? Stop acting like a big man behind your death-ray keyboard. You were a twit about the WMD, and you're a twit now. Grow the fuck up.

'Credibility of force' can lead to very poor decisions. If I remeber correctly, the US had to invade Iraq even after the inspectors could not find WMD because it had to maintain the 'credibility of force.' The argument was something to the effect that once you mobilize you must attack to remain credible.

Eric, as near as I can tell, you're arguing that Iran just possibly might be in a much, much more vulnerable position than any intelligence shows -- indeed, a worse position than any nation has ever been in, since no nation has ever politically collapsed from bombing alone. And since this might be true, we might as well make a threat that we don't really intend to follow up on, and hope that we get lucky.

It might make sense, if we assume that the cost of pretend saber-rattling is zero. But making empty threats is no long-term policy, since it ruins the credibility of threatening to bomb someone when we really do intend to do it.

AlanC9 -

You're running too far with a specific, hyperbolic example I was using to make my point. The issue is not whether Iran is in a much more vulnerable position than our intelligence shows, but how Iran perceives its vulnerability. Consequences we see as potentially having little impact may be quite worrisome to them.

Matthew:
This is very poorly thought-out.

You're saying IF BOMBING WOULD WORK, then it would be ok. (quote below)

That's remarkably irresponsible.

Leaving aside the fact that you've qualified this beyond the realm of reality, and forget that Iran's been sending letters asking for normalized diplomatic relations since 2003, you buy in to the wholly untenable notion that the U.S. has any right to bomb a sovereign nation simply because 'we' don't like their technological or military capacity.

And no, Iran's actions relative to UN resolutions mean exactly sh!t compared to their rightful status as a sovereign nations. Why? If Prznt BUSH can withdraw from any treaty at will; if Bush can pick and choose which laws he'll follow; then Iran has EVERY right to do the same.

Matthew! ANY American who believes in American Foundational values would REJECT, outright, the course of action 'you'd be OK with.'

Anyone who believes in American Foundational American values will naturally apply them to other nations. Not deny them to Iraqis or Iranians.

Iran certainly has EVERY right to defend itself from an American military operating outside of acceptable norms, and sent into combat on false pretenses. Which other nations, say, circa 1914-1945, thought unprovoked, preemptive war was a good idea? An effective military strategy? In their 'national interest'? How'd that work out for 'em?

You'd accept an effective means (bombing) to a fundamentally indefensible & amoral end (giving orders)--an end that contradicts everything America stands for (sovereignty, self-governance). What other countries sought more efficient tools for carrying out egregiously unprincipled, inhuman ends? Again, refer to the early-to-mid 20th century.

Giving orders to Iran is an illegitimate end. Plain & simple.

Iran witnessed what Bush did to Iraq--and how he went about it. American citizens also witnessed Bush's MO. Agreeing with the policy objective re Iran is intellectually bankrupt, as well as a form of complicity.

It is crystal clear the only reliable defense against Bush's misuse of power is a nuclear deterrent. Bush's lack of competence--more accurately, his conscious policy--has accelerated nuclear proliferation. After all, Halliburton subsidiaries sell nuclear technology to rogue states that sponsor terrorists.

If Iran had the bomb, and that prevented war with the US or even an American bombing campaign, it's incontrovertible that America would be better off. You can't stop/squelch increasing technological capacity. Military conflict only accelerates the acquisition of higher-level technology.

Following this course of action will clearly result in multiple Islamic states with a nuclear bomb, AND an unprecedented level of justified hatred for the US. Bush's foreign polies are the antithesis of RealPolitik.

Matthew wrote:
"If II thought (as, say, Reuel Marc Gerecht does) that was wrong; if I thought airstrikes would significantly set back the Iranian program, weaken the Iranian regime, and leave our diplomatic efforts against Iran intact, then it would seem to me that the case for actually bombing after a period of curt diplomacy ("verifiably disarm or we'll bomb you") would be strong."

The Iranians have a much better vision of just what American threats are about than Americans do, since they have a ringside seat to the Iraq disaster. I imagine this produces two reactions. One is that America will use its excellent military in very bizarre and threatening ways - but the second is that, over a very short time, they will lose. On the other hand, there is a vast constituency in America that has a deluded sense of American omnipotence. This group seems to include core Republicans and marginal lefties. The danger is that Bush will play to that core Republican group - well, really the danger is that Bush is a member of that core Republican group, but the real extent of Bush's ignorance and insanity is something I prefer not to entirely know. So, I think while the Iraq war has made America a less credible power with Iran, it has, paradoxically, confirmed that America is omnipotent for the core Republican group (the kind of people who make comments on blogs about how the American military has never lost a battle in Iraq). This split is, I suppose, the dangerous thing about the threats the U.S. is making to Iran. But the U.S. military, I think, has been the key constraint, here - for they, too, are keenly aware of what has been happening in Iraq.

This is so frustrating; we've already been through this. Step #1, sensible Democrats must give the President authority to go to war with Iraq as a "bargaining chip" to force Saddam to comply cooperate with inspections. Sensible Democrats make lovely speeches about how they're giving this authority to the President on the understanding he'll use it as a last resort, and after getting cooperation of the international community. Step #2, the President kicks the inspectors out, and starts a war with the opposition of the rest of the world. Step #3, Republican's villify sensible Democrats who voted to authorize the war and now are critical as being flip floppers.

And now we're going through it all again. All options need to be on the table, so the President can pressure the Iranian's to disarm. Of course we can trust him to use war as a last resort. Lather, rinse, repeat. I can't for the life of me understand how they could be such fools. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

--Rick Taylor

Iran has already achieved deterrence: our *only* option with regards to bombing is the nuclear one; this is the *only* option that disrupts their nuclear program. W won't go nuclear (will he?)


Comments closed March 27, 2007.

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