The Wizards' loss to the Knicks was a bitter pill, but knowing the 'zards played a small role in generating ephemeral improvement, saving Isiah Thomas' job, and thus ensuring New York hoops fans years of further frustration is prize enough.
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Sweet
12 Mar 2007 01:04 pm
Comments (38)
Oh God, thanks for ruining my day.
When he was given the "warning" I thought, oh good, only one more year of knicks sucking horribly with no hope for redemption.
Laugh all you want, but Thomas is going to look better and better as the sheer ineptitude of McHale, Pax, and Ainge becomes more and more clear. I can't believe it myself.
Thomas looks like a veritable genius when stacked up against Larry Bird and Donnie Walsh. Either that or the Pacers should be investigated for deliberately losing their way into the lottery.
why is it that clubs continue to hire former great basketball players as GMs? What makes them particularly qualified? It seems their most unique trait that made them good basketball players was being unusually tall. How does height make a person more suited than the general population at evaluating talent and making deals, etc.? Isiah is a nimrod.
Knicks are in the 8th playoff position as we speak. That's not tooo bad, even given the awful conference. (IIRC, before the season we had a thread about the teams we thought would make the playoffs, and I included the Knicks. Thought I'd flaunt my presience. Of course, i also included the Nets...)
Thomas looks like a veritable genius when stacked up against Larry Bird and Donnie Walsh.
Posted by: steve duncan on March 12, 2007 01:39 PM
You just bought yourself a one way ticket to hell. Blasphemer.
As a Bulls fan, I am extremely depressed. We were supposed to get another lottery pick out of those bozos.
You just bought yourself a one way ticket to hell. Blasphemer.
Posted by: michesmith on March 12, 2007 01:45 PM
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Too late, I'm a Pacer fan so I'm already in hell.
Steve,
You just don't understand Larry's plan. Remember the story of Job. Larry is only making you suffer so you will be strong enough to face later trials in your life. You are unwise to doubt Him.
Yes, doubting Larry publicly is unwise. Too caustic a critique and he'll just have one of his players shoot you.
Thomas the coach has been pretty good this year (especially post Denver fight), especially since he has had to overcome the roster set up by Tomas the President.
More proof that individual owners, and not corporate caretakers, make for championship teams.
The problem for this Knick team is that even if they get into the playoffs this year, the team as constituted has virtually no shot at winning a championship (or even the conference). The core of Marbury, Crawford, Francis, Lee, Frye, Jeffries, Malik Rose, Jerome James, and Eddy Curry is under contract (or control) for the next two years and puts the team over the salary cap. That rotation is clearly inferior to Phoenix, Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Miami and Detroit.
In December, Dolan said that firing Isiah would be an acknowledgment that the team needs to be "blown up". That is exactly the point.
It's not clearly worse than Miami in a year, and it might not be clearly worse than Detroit without Webber and potentially without Billups. And can we all finally admit that pretending D. Wade is the greatest player in the NBA is laughable when recent events have made clear that he's not even the most important player on his own team?
ephus, you get to the point i wanted to make: the team has shown improvement this year, more than i, for one, anticipated (i suspect they're going to end up with 37-39 wins, which is a good 8-10 more than i guessed), but the only guy on the team that absolutely strikes me as a potential championship roster player in 2-3 years is david lee (i'm still open-minded about curry). Ascending to mediocre or better is relative improvement, but since the goal (as ephus rightly notes) is to win championships....
"The problem for this Knick team is that even if they get into the playoffs this year, the team as constituted has virtually no shot at winning a championship (or even the conference). The core of Marbury, Crawford, Francis, Lee, Frye, Jeffries, Malik Rose, Jerome James, and Eddy Curry is under contract (or control) for the next two years and puts the team over the salary cap. That rotation is clearly inferior to Phoenix, Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Miami and Detroit."
That's a bad core? Lee, Frye, and Curry are very young players with extremely high ceilings (and Frye has barely begun to show what he can do) and are, at the very least, extremely tradable assets. Robinson, Collins, and Balkman are also solid young talent that have good trade value and have shown flashes of potential and some solid consistent play in Balkman's case. In two years Francis and Marbury's contracts will be toast, the Knicks will be under the salary cap (I don't believe it either) and they should have no problem extending Lee. They have a core of solid young players to build around and are a big trade or a good draft or two (and Isiah is a monster in the draft, Lee was the last pick in the 1st round) away from jumping to the next level. Give the guys some credit - the situation is not hopeless at the moment at all.
can we at least stop with the "Isiah is the worst GM of all time" comments now?
there's significant argument to be made about how good he is, but he drafted a bunch of promising young guys in Frye, Lee, Balkman, and maybe Nate, got Marbury for zilch (which is looking pretty nice right now) and that Curry trade isn't looking half bad. Even the Francis trade is bearing some serious fruit at the moment. And the major criticisms lately Jerome James and Jared Jeffries are not that significant, only about 10-11 per year between the two of them, and Jeffries has been playing pretty well lately.
Where's the hatred for Paxson? Signing Ben Wallace and trading Tyson Chandler for nothing?! Chandler is ALREADY better than Wallace, a decade younger, and slightly cheaper. Dropping Curry when their one major weakness at the moment is scoring in the post? Wow, what a grrrreat GM!
The Knicks will go as far as Curry can take them. Lee is a very good complementary player, but you need a star, and the only player who could even conceivably be a star is Curry. He's made a lot of prgress this year. But he needs to step it up at least another couple of notches before the Knicks can be considered championship material (absent any deals).
well, Al, this is just it: i can imagine david lee as a starting 4 on a championship team very readily. i cannot yet imagine curry as a starting 5 on a championship team, although i'm open-minded that he can yet learn defense and become a better rebounder.
but even if curry steps it up, does any of us believe that either francis or marbury will be championship 1s in 2009-10? (and, for that matter, who will be the starting 2 and 3? i can see crawford as a third guard and frye as a third forward, and indeed, b.shac, i'm not sure why you see such an upside still for frye.)
PS. Al: Messi!!! (1 for each goal)
As a Jazz fan, I will simply note that any online discussion of NBA basketball involving Eastern Conference teams is a waste of ones and zeros.
"As a Jazz fan, I will simply note that any online discussion of NBA basketball involving Eastern Conference teams is a waste of ones and zeros."
Word.
Y'all know me. Hmmm, by 36 points on the Laker's homecourt. But I am silent until after the Finals, when for years I am going to be one obnoxious SOB. Punks they were called here. Revenge will be cold and enduring.
MY: What good do you take from Zards 19th loss to the Heat in the last 20 meetings? Even with Washington back at full strength, what's the over/under on when Miami overtakes them in the SE div?
SCMT: So you are either wrong about Wade or you were wrong about the Shaq trade. Which is it? I think both. In Laker news, Kobe's certainly showing his true colors as of late, huh?
McManus: Yer funny.
why is it that clubs continue to hire former great basketball players as GMs?
Short answer: Joe Dumars
Long answer: Teams will look at guys like Dumars (Granted, he wasn't a Hall-of-Famer, but he was good enough that the reasoning still applies.) coming in and succeeding and they'll assume that any veteran of a championship team must "have what it takes" to put together a winning program. All it takes is one case of this happening every, oh, decade or so (remember Larry Bird's inital success with the Pacers?) for the this meme to continue thriving.
Dumars was inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame in 2006.
So you are either wrong about Wade or you were wrong about the Shaq trade.
Neither. Shaq's definitely better than I thought he was, but I think he's got $20 mil. per year for four years after this one. And that's a substantial reduction from what he was asking for from Dr. Buss ($33 mil. per year, IIRC). Buss made the right call. Wade's a very, very good player. But best in the NBA? Please.
And note that the Lakers, despite all the myriad injuries (three starters for significant periods of the season, and five of top eight or nine), and despite the unbelievable collapse of late, are only one game behind Miami in the total standing. (If Wade were still playing, the Lakers might still be ahead. (OK, that's a stretch.))
You know what was also sweet: U. Donis. Haslem.
Wow. Why the hell is Joe Dumars in the Hall of Fame? I mean, he was a good player and all, but that's just silly.
"McManus: Yer funny."
I try. And I have been having fun lately, tho I have promised not to gloat too much too soon.
"Short answer: Joe Dumars"
Jerry West.
I have usually thought, and that the same applies to baseball, that the marginal role players made the better GM's and managers. Don Nelson, Avery Johnson, Phil Jackson.
Wade's a very, very good player. But best in the NBA? Please.
Ok, if the Finals MVP and reigning 2-time skills challenge winner (having beaten both LeBron and Kobe head to head) is not the best player in the league, who is?
The skills challenge? Are you serious?
Wow. Why the hell is Joe Dumars in the Hall of Fame? I mean, he was a good player and all, but that's just silly.
He's in the Hall of Fame? Really?!? I'll confess to not knowing a comprehensive list of indcutees, so I it looks like I'm wrong on that fact. I stand corrected.
Still, my larger point still stands.
I have usually thought, and that the same applies to baseball, that the marginal role players made the better GM's and managers. Don Nelson, Avery Johnson, Phil Jackson.
Billy Beane?
lol, you're judging the players in the NBA by their performance in the Skills Challenge?
Ok, if the Finals MVP and reigning 2-time skills challenge winner (having beaten both LeBron and Kobe head to head) is not the best player in the league, who is?
1. He was the announced Finals MVP. The real Finals MVP was Bennett Salvatore.
2. Best player in the NBA is hard, actually. It depends on match-ups, yada yada. But I'd take Kobe and LeBron over Wade, each and every day. And--though I like Kobe a lot, and think that he may be the player that has best married talent and technique in the NBA--I'd take LeBron over Kobe. James is just a freak, in the pre-knee injury Amare sense of the word.
The skills challenge? Are you serious?
lol, you're judging the players in the NBA by their performance in the Skills Challenge?
Hey, I ain't scared. I'll throw it out there. So, who is the best player in the league and what criteria would you use to define best if not skills.
Laugh all you want, but Thomas is going to look better and better as the sheer ineptitude of McHale, Pax, and Ainge becomes more and more clear.
Ainge may have the last laugh. It's taken longer than it should, but finally there is light at the end of the tunnel for Boston fans. The Celtics have a core of solid younger players to surround a still-in-his prime Paul Pierce. The best of these, 21 year old Al Jefferson, is averaging, like, 17 & 13 in the new year. Oh, and there's a non-trivial chance the Celtics will nab Oden or Durant in a few months' time.
What's with Matt's ability to transfer his loyalties so quickly, by the way? Matt, didn't you grow up in NYC? I can't imagine moving to a new town and, in the space of two or three years, becoming a Celtic hater. I don't get it.
Although they are the Knicks...
But I'd take Kobe and LeBron over Wade, each and every day...I'd take LeBron over Kobe.
I think the best player has to be the best all around player. James might have the most unstoppable offensive game but he doesn't play enough defense. Wade gets all the intangible points. He averages more assists, steals, and blocks per game than either of those two. (He doubles LBJ's blocks and triples Kobe's) He also shoots the highest percentage from the field. Wade does get fewer rebounds and shoots a much lower percentage from behind the arc, but his FT% has improved every year he's been in the league. He now shoots 81% to Kobe's 86% to LeBron's 68%. Plus I think Wade is the most spectacular player. He gives you at least one "OMG!" moment a game. Finally, the guy wins. He's never missed the playoffs, even before Shaq he took Odom and Butler into the second round. LBJ is also in the East and he's made the playoffs once.
"Billy Beane?"
?? Don't know who he is. But while I was looking to see if Popovich had been a player I did come across Alex Hannum (60s Sixers) and Pat Riley.
"Wade gets all the intangible points."
And where is Wade right now? Some part of injuries is luck and genetics, and some part style, conditioning, pain threshhold and other controllable factors. What did Woody Allen say about showing up? A franchise player on the bench like Stoudamire, or consistently less than 100%, like Nash, is a loser.
Grunfeld, as the Knicks' GM, was unable to acquire a complimentary player for Ewing while he was still in his prime. He also helped create the salary cap problems that the Knicks are still suffering from, and he didn't draft well while he was with the Knicks either.
Isiah, for all his faults, has acquired two cornerstone players in Curry and Lee, and has drafted very well.
Consequently, Mr. Yglesias, your pleasure at his extension will be evanescent.
Comments closed March 26, 2007.
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Heads in the Sand
Thomas was involved in the basketball operations of the city I live in. I remember him well. He used to kick small dogs on the way into the arena. He didn't tip well. He farted in facility elevators. I'm glad he's gone. New York deserves him.
Posted by steve duncan | March 12, 2007 1:11 PM