I don't spend much time in Midtown ever, but it seems to me that when Rudy Giuliani cleaned up Time Square and got rid of all the porn, he seems to have left an awful lot of porn on 8th Avenue in the 40s. Just saying. Looking out the window I see Gotham City Ladies' World, Paradise Alley, Lace 2, and The Playpen all on 8th between 43rd and 44th. There's also this one store where I bought a fake ID when I was sixteen.
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Cleaned Up!
22 May 2007 12:43 pm
Comments (26)
You've found the one part of Manhattan that will never, ever, be "cleaned up." I call it the Port Authority Bus Terminal district. Unfortunately, it doesn't extend much past 44th street, but if you've just got off a bus from Atlantic City, it'll get the job done.
It remains hidden away from the innocent eyes of tourists (except the losers who take the bus), so no harm is done.
I guess you are too young to remember but there was a time when you couldn't go to Bryant Park because of all the drug dealers. There was a time when grown men avoided 42nd Street between 7th and 8th during the evening rush hour because they were concerned about the drugs and the crime. There was a time when my 65 year old father couldn't walk down 8th ave after a show without getting propositioned by a prostitute.
I dislike Guiliani and voted against him twice. however Times Square is far better now than it was 20 years ago.
Apparently the prostitutes are up in the Bronx now. There's some sort of town car, brothel, outcall system, according to a friend who was working on a story about it.
I'm just old enough to remember the era that Neil describes, and he has it 100% correct. I'm not sure if Giuliani deserves the credit -- my recollection is that Bryant Park, for example, was already improving in '92, when I moved out of town, a year before Rudi came to office -- but it certainly did improve on his watch. The Port Authority area remains a bit seedy, but is certainly no longer *scary*, which is the term I would have reached for 20 years ago.
It's really hard to believe how scary certain parts of New York used to be, even just a block or so away from busy corporate districts. It's a pity about Rudi's authoritarian instincts, though. (The least of the city's problems were unregulated street crossings and hot dog vendors!)
Apparently the prostitutes are up in the Bronx now. There's some sort of town car, brothel, outcall system, according to a friend who was working on a story about it.
The area around the Queens end of the Queensboro bridge supposedly has many hookers too, mostly Latin American women operating out of massage parlors.
Street hookers seem to be a lot less common in most cities. Today they mostly operate through online listings and massage parlors.
My office is moving into the new NYTimes building going up at port authority. It will be interesting if those corporate offices effect any change on those few blocks on 8th ave. I imagine that, you know, some restaurants and business lunch-type places will move into the area (although, of course, it's still only one avenue block to all the schlock at Times Sq. and one block the other way to the restuarants/bars/etc. in Hell's Kitchen
that said, it's really only 2-3 blocks we're talking about.
the Queens end of the Queensboro bridge
They're not on the street, it seems. That's a seedy area, though. I live just around there!
Times Square is far better now than it was 20 years ago.
Depends. If what you want to do is "walk down 8th ave after a show without getting propositioned by a prostitute", sure. But seedy old New York made it possible for a lot of artists to live and work in the city, because there were still plenty of places that the yuppies just wouldn't go.
Now, the Giuliani/Bloomberg era has led to, among other recent developments, the rezoning of the Fashion District for residential use, which means even less storefront/loft space and more condos for rich people.
let me echo Neil here.
In 1977 you could very literally take a right turn from Broadway to 42nd Street at Time's Square and end up in a totally different world.
Me? I was 20 and a US Navy sailor and not really in a position or an inclination to be paying for a first line Broadway show. So I just went around the corner. Man it was wild. Giuliani displaced the scene but by nature you can't make it disappear.
"Taxi Driver" with DeNiro and Jodie Foster? Way more of a documentary than you would think. That crazy uncle in the corner? Maybe he just had too deep a whiff on the late sixties and early seventies.
Depends. If what you want to do is "walk down 8th ave after a show without getting propositioned by a prostitute", sure. But seedy old New York made it possible for a lot of artists to live and work in the city, because there were still plenty of places that the yuppies just wouldn't go.
Well, of course, artists' getting to live in the city is really the most important thing. Who wouldn't put up with a little prostitution, street crime, and urban decay so the artists don't have to move to Brooklyn?
Mark,
Your complaint against affordable housing (a reasonable complaint, whether or not artists live in Manhattan or not), yet also against rezoning areas for residential use, seems irreconcilable to me. one of the big, big problems with Manhattan housing is that there simply isn't enough of it (part due to zoning, including the ability not to build taller buildings in many areas, part due to rent control, part due to other factors). You may like these things for other reasons (asthetics, etc.), but to be both against affordable housing yet also against housing seems silly.
Mark is right, except that I would add that the yupster proliferation has also made it impossible for decent working class folks to live in this City, in addition to artists. In fact I would say there are far too many talentless artists of wealthy backgrounds in this city. Its a shame. NYC has no edge anymore, and I include Brooklyn in that assessment (but not the Bronx of course, the realest borough). Its really just a bunch of rich assholes that lack any drive to create or build on anything as previous occupants of this City did. They just come to enjoy the "culture". The irony is that they are destroying the very culture that they came here for.
As for Giuliani and the Hos: The hookers have actually returned to Manhattan in the last year or two or so. You will see them on the West Side and in the Meatpacking district occasionally as well. And they are readily available through in-calls as well as massage parlors that are everywhere. Giuliani takes credit for crime reductions that were largely the result of the policies of his predecessor and his police commissioners, particularly Bratton. The effect of his zeros for heros police contracts in the late 1990's are still being felt in many PO's wallots. And lets not forget he is a 9-11 profiteer, which someone really needs to tell the rest of this country.
Okay, I have never been to NYC before, so I have a question for you all. Where can I find a hooker in NYC? It appears that the Bronx and the former port authority are the main places to get some action. I'm quite surprised that after 8 years of Rudy, and all of his "reforms," everyone still knows where all of the hookers are.
Anyway, it appears that people conflate two different things: "crime" (in this case, being violent crime, harder drugs, and "scariness"), and "sleaze" (things such as prostitution, porno stores, strip clubs, some drugs, etc.). Obviously, people don't like the violent crime aspect, but I think that there is a tacit acceptance of sleaziness in our culture (otherwise, Las Vegas would be out of business). And I think that a lot of people actually like a little bit of sleaziness every now and then, especially in the big cites (well, as long as they don't have to live by it).
And yes, I do know that drug use and prostitution are crimes.
shut up! you're gonna ruin it for everybody.
Giuliani didn't clean up NYC so much as move the dirt around. It's the equal of sweeping all the dirt under the couch and leaving it for someone else to clean up for later.
The hookers have actually returned to Manhattan in the last year or two or so. You will see them on the West Side and in the Meatpacking district
Huh huh...
Street hookers seem to be a lot less common in most cities. Today they mostly operate through online listings and massage parlors.
Seriously, they've moved to the internet. Craigslist/online "malls" and The Erotic Review have changed the game bigtime. Among other things, this makes it a lot easier for working girls to cultivate regulars (that's where the real money is, and where the danger isn't), and reduces the power of pimps, both of which are a good thing.
I lived in Manhattan during the late 80's and early 90's and there were rarely times I felt threatened.
I think white people/yuppies tend to conflate nuisances with danger. (I will concede that some rich white guy was going to stick out in many places were I would not.) There were certainly areas of the city that were unpleasant, but by the early 90's you had to go out of you way to to find a truly dangerous neighborhood.
Where can I find a hooker in NYC?
Just look for the massage parlor ads in the back pages of the Village Voice. Pay careful attention to the opening hours listed in the ads. If a parlor is open later than 11 pm or midnight, you can be reasonably sure that it offers more than just massages.
I am one of those losers (no offense taken) that commutes all the time into and from Port Authority. If you walk down the streets, it really isn't as seedy as it looks from first impression. The Times Square/Disney/Flashing light fad has slowly been working its way toward Port Authority. But once you get more west of port authority, you can find some streets I think in 30s near 9th and 10th avenue (can't remember exactly where ) that look like bad areas of NY from 80s. You know where they are garbage in streets, abandoned cars. It stills exists in Manhattan, but have to really look for it.
The meatpacker district sounds about right for hookers.
"[hookers] in the Meatpacking district"
That's just Paris and Lindsey.
I was under the impression that much of Manhattan's (that of Brooklyn and to a lesser extent Queens) revival was due mostly to the broader economic boom of the 90's that saw crime drop in most of the country. The 80's boom mostly just put money in the pockets of a few Wall Street types who still wanted their porn, hookers, and drugs closer at hand, while the 90s saw a real influx of new business and better wages for most people working in NYC. Now that the Bush economic malaise has become entrenched, crime is increasing again and the prostitutes and drug dealers are moving back to where there is still some disposal income to profit off of.
I live on 38th between 8th & 9th and can confirm what you have said about the area. The immediate vicinity of Port Authority is the armpit of Manhattan (which is why I can afford to live there). There are at least 10 porn shops within a one block radius that should be visited by conservatives who believe all Muslims want to kill us -- trust me, they'd rather sell us girl-on-dog DVDs.
As the gateway to Manhattan for the less affluent, Port Authority can be seedy and a little rough at times, though it is heavily patroled. You get propositioned by hookers of the drug-habit-and-missing-teeth variety. I saw a guy severely beaten and stabbed in the face in the middle of 40th & 8th in a spate of gang-related violence following a high school basketball game at MSG. Pimps are easy to spot, as are drug dealers.
However, the neighborhood is changing. The new NYT building is about to open. The is talk of moving the bus terminal closer to the Lincoln Tunnel. Lofts in the building next to mine go for nearly $4M. Hotels and apartment buildings are sprouting up all around. The garage across the street from me just closed to make way for a 37-story office building.
So things are getting nicer. That means soon I won't be able to afford to live here.
They're not on the street, it seems. That's a seedy area, though. I live just around there!
I was propositioned there about three years ago by a couple of hookers. It was truly strange, because it was in an area that was just warehouses, and from out of nowhere come two women in the classic attire.
Comments closed June 05, 2007.
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Heads in the Sand
Ah, yes, but Giuliani also got that law passed requiring at least 60% of those stores' retail space to be for non-porn. So now Paradise Alley has kung fu movies too.
Posted by Fred | May 22, 2007 12:55 PM