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Does The Middle East Matter?

02 May 2007 02:08 pm

Via Ross Douthat, Edward Luttwak has a curious article in the British Prospect making the provocative argument that "the Middle East doesn't matter." In fact, though Luttwak doesn't doesn't seem to see it this way, he's simply endorsing the traditional anti-imperialist view that the best solution to America's problems in the region is to simply . . . get less involved and Middle Easterners go their own way.

He differentiates himself from the left in a few ways. One is to use insulting rhetoric like calling the Middle East "backwards" and other similar language liberals wouldn't use. Second, he invents a straw position he disagrees with which holds "that if only this or that concession were made, if only their policies were followed through to the end and respect shown, or simulated, hostility would cease and a warm Mediterranean amity would emerge." Third, and most interestingly, he denies the significance of the Israel-Palestine conflict:

Yes, it would be nice if Israelis and Palestinians could settle their differences, but it would do little or nothing to calm the other conflicts in the middle east from Algeria to Iraq, or to stop Muslim-Hindu violence in Kashmir, Muslim-Christian violence in Indonesia and the Philippines, Muslim-Buddhist violence in Thailand, Muslim-animist violence in Sudan, Muslim-Igbo violence in Nigeria, Muslim-Muscovite violence in Chechnya, or the different varieties of inter-Muslim violence between traditionalists and Islamists, and between Sunnis and Shia, nor would it assuage the perfectly understandable hostility of convinced Islamists towards the transgressive west that relentlessly invades their minds, and sometimes their countries.

Some of this seems clearly true, but the part at the end is wildly unconvincing. Luttwak speaks of the "perfectly understandable hostility of convinced Islamists toward the transgressive west that relentlessly invades their minds, and sometimes their countries." This seems to suggest that there's a binary "hostility/non-hostility" dynamic, when obviously the real issue is how many people are hostile and how hostile are they. Arabs and Muslims are, clearly, quite hostile to Israel and since the US is such a heavy backer of Israel, some of this hostility attaches to us. If there were a settlement of the Arab-Israeli conflict, there'd be less hostility to Israel and therefore less hostility to the United States. The alternative would be to radically curtail our backing for Israel, which Luttwak should really say clearly if it's what he intends to propose.

That said, it's a very interesting article that makes many sound points.

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Comments (41)

I think its hard to overstate how much our involvement and interest in the Middle East is due to our attachment to Israel. Similarly, its hard to overstate (at least, prior to the Iraq fiasco) how much the hostility toward the US is due to our support for Israel.

Since the prospects for settling the Arab-Israeli conflict are low, our best course of action is to radically curtail our backing of Israel.

There is no downside for us.

Israel and Palestine are small in terms of territory, population, etc. They are obviously unimportant in some objective sense. Whatever importance they have is symbolic, based on religious and ethnic sentamentality. So, one of the goals of our policy should be to drain this conflict of its symbolic meaning and relevance, at least as far as its association with the US goes.

Our main economic interest in the Middle East is ensuring that no single country grabs control of a larger share of the oil, which would make higher monopolistic oil pricing more feasible. (For example, it was bad for us that Saddam seized Kuwait's oil in 1990, so we reversed it.)

With the current distribution of oil ownership, however, we can buy oil at reasonable prices -- OPEC's cartelistic behavior of the 1970s isn't really feasible anymore with the sheer number of oil producing nations today and the higher populations of OPEC countries.

Preventing Kuwait-style invasions is fairly easy for the U.S. with our air supremacy, and we don't have much trouble finding an adequate number of countries in the region to host our airplanes.

Otherwise, the Middle East just isn't that important. It's not economically or technologically dynamic like East Asia. It's main threat is terrorism, but the simpler solution than ruling the Middle East is to let fewer Middle Easterners into our country. If we don't let them through Customs at JFK, how are they going to wreak their terrible Islamist vengeance on us?

Matt:

"He [Luttwak] differentiates himself from the left in a few ways. One is to use insulting rhetoric like calling the Middle East "backwards" and other similar language liberals wouldn't use."

In this, the Left has something in common with the Bush Administration: An overly-generous view of Arab potential, blinded to reality by political correctness. Your friend Steve Sailer nailed this in his essay PC Thinking = Disaster, This Time In Iraq. Take a minute to read it before dismissing it out of hand.

1. Mr. Luttwak is certainly correct, as I have pointed out on this blog, among others, that the Israel/Palestinian problem is pretty small beer compared to the other problems within the Muslim world and as between the Muslim world and the rest of humanity. Therefore, Mr. Jim Ws' suggestion that dumping Israel will bring in peace and harmony vis a vis the Muslim world is pie in the sky.

2. Unfortunately, Mr. Luttwak overlooks the dependence of the rest of the world on Middle East oil. Until that dependence is greatly lessened, the rest of the world cannot afford to let chaos reign there, as it would interrupt the flow of oil and thus endanger the economic stability of the oil consuming countries. That's the real reason why we have engaged in the, thus far unsuccessful adventure in Iraq.

The excessive international attention given to the Israeli-Arab conflict has perpetuated it, as has U.S. and UN involvement. U.S. influence over Israel (due to our financial backing) causes Arabs to hold out for a deus ex machina solution. Instead of the obvious real world choices -- 1) defeating Israel militarily; or, failing that, 2) compromising with Israel -- Arabs hold out for unrealistic terms that Israel would never agree to, without American pressure.

Similarly, America's de facto military backing of Israel gives Israel the confidence to avoid making its real-world choices with respect to the Arabs.

America does have an important religious interest in preserving a Jewish government in Jerusalem. But compared to America's geo-political interest in controlling the oil flow, the religious interest is window dressing, or more accurately, propaganda that our politicians use to rationalize blood for oil. Muslim politicians likewise demagogue the Palestinian conflict for their propaganda purposes.

Consider the example of Iran. The Iranian revolutionaries didn't attack our embassy because of Israel. They attacked us because we had installed a puppet dictator to oppress them. But we didn't overthrow the Mossedegh democracy for Israel. We did it for the oil.

I personally am all for resolving the conflict in Palestine. But I don't believe that will make Muslims any happier about America propping up puppet dictators to ruin their lives.

Meanwhile... In Iraq, legislators demand a timetable for US withdrawal:

http://www.upi.com/International_Intelligence/Briefing/2007/05/02/iraqi_lawmakers_demand_us_withdrawal/

It is amazing that Islamofascists hate us because we support the government of Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Israel. We can't get a break. I would agree that leaving the ME alone would be a great strategy but the problems don't stay in the ME. The ME is dying. It has grossly inflated populations that produce nothing and they are running out of oil. They are jumping ship and heading to Europe which has a lack of population problem therefore is a weak "host". This is not a problem in itself but the Europeans are racists at heart and have no intention of integrating a bunch of Arabs. I lived in Germany for 11 years and you can never be a "real German" unless you have German blood. My barber was a third generation Turk that lived in terror of being deported to Turkey. She had never lived in Turkey and thought it was dirty and backwards. Her parents were born in Germany, she was born in Germany but she wasn't a German citizen.

The Israeli-Palestinian issue will never be resolved. The Arab potentates stoke it to focus attention outside of their dysfunctional countries. I still cannot figure out how five million Jews in Israel keep 350 million Arabs down. Buffoonery!

Speaking of the use of the term "backward" as insulting rhetoric to describe the ME and whether that is correct. I went to two big malls, one in Kuwait and one in Dubai. Neither mall had a book store. Figure that one out.

In this, the Left has something in common with the Bush Administration: An overly-generous view of Arab potential, blinded to reality by political correctness.

There was a time many centuries ago when the Middle East was way ahead of the West in terms of all the relevant signifiers. What happened to make them lose their mojo? Did the progress gene somehow vanish from their DNA?

The answer, in a word: Secularism. When a government is organized according to religious principles, science and progress fall by the wayside. A nation that protects freedom of thought and views religion as a private matter, not as a source for legislation, will always win out in the long run.

And just as the Church was slowly losing its power over affairs of state in the West, Islam was becoming an organizing principle throughout the Middle East. The problem wasn't that people chose to practice a particular religion; the problem was that they organized their society around it, and any sort of innovation that was at odds with the traditions of Islam, they rejected.

It's astonishing that demagogues in today's America rail against secularism when it, above all else, is the grand principle that has allowed the West to surge past the Middle East in terms of economics and societal progress. It's this sense in which much of the Middle East remains "backwards," and yet these fools want to take our cues from them.

Oxymoron alert: "America does have an important religious interest in..."


Re: "But I don't believe that will make Muslims any happier about America propping up puppet dictators to ruin their lives."

I keep hearing about how we are propping up dictators. Other than our giving aid to Mubarak (which I think we should stop doing), what are these people talking about? The dictators are perfectly capable of propping themselves up.

Re: "It's main threat is terrorism, but the simpler solution than ruling the Middle East is to let fewer Middle Easterners into our country. If we don't let them through Customs at JFK, how are they going to wreak their terrible Islamist vengeance on us?"

How about if we just keep them out of the cockpits of our airplanes? That seems to be working pretty well for the last 6 years.


Finally, I agree with everything Julio said. Our involvement in the Israel-Palestinian conflict is one of the reasons it has been so insoluble.

"It is amazing that Islamofascists hate us because we support the government of Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Israel. We can't get a break. I would agree that leaving the ME alone would be a great strategy but the problems don't stay in the ME. The ME is dying. It has grossly inflated populations that produce nothing and they are running out of oil."

Well, Moubarek doesn't just get money, he gets the second-most amount of money from us. There is simply no basis for support for him in broader Egyptian society. Everyone hates him: the Islamic radicals, the secular reformers, the liberals, the poor he cheats out of their money via corruption, the Christian Copts, businesses that are faced with too many regulations based in corruption, etc. His supporters are basically people who owe their position to him and are on the payroll of the party and the state. He's in an unstable equilibrium in which he's repressive enough to be widely hated (such as the Shah of Iran and the previous government in Ukraine), but not oppressive enough to become totalitarian enough to prevent being overthrown in a normal context (the Kim dynasty in North Korea, Stalin, etc.). Without US support acting as a bit of a deux ex machina, he would have little ability to stay in power. He doesn't have the nationalistic or ideological clout of Nasser to keep him in power. He just has a very unpopular party under him. In addition, he has the tendency to first play nice with Israel and then have the official media attack Israel (both because it does have bad policies and as a "don't look behind the curtain"-type diversion. A resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian crisis (which will probably have to be inevitable due to the high Palestinian birth rates) would give us one less reason to support Moubarek. He would lose his biggest propaganda tool both for keeping his people mad at someone besides him and for maintain US support. This would also lead two fewer reasons for Muslims and Arabs to hate the US.

It also is highly doubtful that the Saudi government could have survived without US support. If there has been a single, continuous American policy in the Middle East since 1945, it has been to support the House of Saud no matter what to maintain the continuous supply of oil. People like Scowcroft believe this has given us fifty years of peace. Saudi Arabia is a collection of cobbled-together regions with nothing binding them together but the strong hand of a young royal family after whom it is named. Without US support, the House of Saud would not likely be in power, and Saudi Arabia would also not likely be a single state. Both the Saudi and the Egyptian governments are repressive and are more responsive to the whims of the American government than their own people.

I love all the "Muslims are crazy/stupid for caring about Palestine, especially for SLC who seems solely motivated by a fanatical commitment to zionism and has prescribed solutions for dealing with the Palestinian problem along the lines of the Hama massacre.

All of it delivered without a hint of irony.

"Meanwhile... In Iraq, legislators demand a timetable for US withdrawal"

133 Iraqi legislators, to be precise -- out of 275. So fewer than 50%. To bad, really. I see no reason why an intelligent, honest, policy compromise couldn't satisfy these 133 Iraqi legislators, their 142 colleagues who haven't signed on, President Bush, and the Democratic leaders in Congress. The key is combining a realistic (i.e., long-range) timetable for withdrawal with policies that are aimed at actually stabilizing Iraq so that, by the time we do withdraw, the country is viable.

Re: "It also is highly doubtful that the Saudi government could have survived without US support."

Based on what evidence? What threat has there been to the Saudi government? They don't need our support. They get plenty of support in the form of money from people all over the world for their oil. If you're talking about stuff we did back in the late 1940's, early 1950's...well, maybe, I don't know. But what about lately?

And don't bring up our reaction to Saddam invading Kuwait. That's not what people are talking about when they make up stuff about us propping up dictators. What bothers me isn't that there might be some truth to the claim, in which case I'll be happy to be enlightened. Its the fact that people use metaphors like "propping up" without any idea what they mean substantively and without any evidence of what behaviors are embodied by them.

The Palestinian issue is a huge deal for the terrorists/jihadis. It was, before the ill advised Iraq invasion diluted it somewhat, their main propaganda tool for recruitment and financial support within the Arab world. No other conflict - Kashmir, Chechnya, etc. comes close to Palestine in terms of its emotional appeal to Arabs. Also the fact that the Israelis are so damn tough, and often brutal, makes it a much easier sell.

I have lived in the Middle East for a few years and according to my observations, American culture per se is not the red rag. Arabs (especially the youth) lap up all things American stuff - McDonalds, Hollywood, gangsta-rap et all. Of course the mullahs detest the 'moral depravity' of the great Satan but the common Arab does not (seem to). In fact they may secretly even envy us; Satan is pretty seductive. What the Arab are united on is opposition to American foreign policy in the Middle East. Whichever way you look at it, the Israeli-Palestinian issue is the gorilla in the room. Our support of Israel makes us complicit in all of Israel’s deeds. Even secular Arabs, who are far and few, are absolutely enraged with the atrocities (whether real or supposed) on the Palestinian people.

Terrorism is currently THE greatest threat to America and the liberal democratic world. Most of it originates from and is financed by the Middle East (ably supported by our Pakistani allies). Historically, economically, politically, the Middle East is the one of the most (if not the most) important area in the world. It is naive to think that we can just ignore it. Accordingly, resolving the Palestinian problem may be of paramount importance. I have a new respect for Clinton and his (latent) efforts in trying to resolve the whole sordid mess. Don't care about his motives but he was on the right track - before Dubya came along and pissed all over it.

A note to Steve Sailor - there are many illegal migrants in America and they did not come through JFK. There are a lot of ways to get to America and motivated (if crazy) jihadi types will find some way in. Not to mention that they don't mind killing Americans in other countries as well. I don't suppose anyone is recommending that Americans not travel abroad ...ever. I am surprised by all the people here lamenting on why the Islamofascists (whatever the hell that means) hate us. If people hate us, they hate us…deal with it. It is one of the side effects of being the only superpower in the world. Lots of people hate Bill Gates and not just because he tries to run non-Microsoft businesses out of business. Thinking that Arabs ‘think’ like Americans has been the major fallacy of our Middle Eastern foreign policy. Well they don’t. And they don’t hang around in bookstores in malls sipping Starbucks and debating politics. Can we for once get in some foreign policy experts who know what they are dealing with?


metaphors like "propping up"

= supplying arms, money, intelligence, diplomatic cover, and when necessary, air cover.

"Re: "It also is highly doubtful that the Saudi government could have survived without US support."

Based on what evidence? What threat has there been to the Saudi government? They don't need our support. They get plenty of support in the form of money from people all over the world for their oil. If you're talking about stuff we did back in the late 1940's, early 1950's...well, maybe, I don't know. But what about lately?"

Who exactly supports the Saudi government? You have a country in Saudi Arabia where there is 1) no base of support for the ruling family outside that family and 2) there is no clear sense of national identity (and I don't mean this in the Peretz, "there are no Arab nations" sense. I mean this in the Saudi Arabia is not an Egypt sense). There has been instability in Saudi Arabia and violent threats against the regime or its territorial integrity which have been put down with arms, often supplied by us. It's a conservative religious state that is hated by religious conservatives of the same religion. Without arms coming in from the outside, it is likely that Saudi Arabia could reduce the level of anarchy and instability in the country to prevent it from splitting up or getting overthrown while ensuring that the petrodollars keep on flowing.

I have to say, if I understand where you are heading with the Iraq comment, I agree with you. It's always nice on the internet to get challenged by someone who says "what's the evidence?" instead of just more rhetoric.

Re Ed Marshall

Mr. Marshall is one of those deluded individuals who is absolutely convinced that the secret to solving the Israel/Palestinian problem is to apply the pressure on Israel to stop being beastly towards the Palestinians. Unfortunately, that will not entice the Palestinians into cutting a deal which does not involve the State of Israel agreeing to go out of business. If Mr. Marshall thinks that the current display of beastliness is oppressive, he should consider what the reaction of the Israeli Government would be toward the Palestinian terrorists if the late and unlamented dictator of Syria, Hafaz Assad was the prime minister. Mr. Marshall may not like the application of Hama rules but he cannot deny they they were very effective in stamping out the terrorists in Syria who were doing (or trying to do) exactly what the Palestinian terrorists do in Israel. It is unfortunate that sometimes the only language some people understand is the mailed fist.

"The excessive international attention given to the Israeli-Arab conflict has perpetuated it, as has U.S. and UN involvement. U.S. influence over Israel (due to our financial backing) causes Arabs to hold out for a deus ex machina solution. Instead of the obvious real world choices -- 1) defeating Israel militarily; or, failing that, 2) compromising with Israel -- Arabs hold out for unrealistic terms that Israel would never agree to, without American pressure.
Similarly, America's de facto military backing of Israel gives Israel the confidence to avoid making its real-world choices with respect to the Arabs."

I think this is an excellent argument, but given U.S. domestic politics and political discourse, I can't imagine a President adopting the policy implied by this reasoning.

What would happen if a President announced that the U.S. would no longer provide any military or other aid (including loan guarantees) to Israel or Egypt, abstain on all Security Council resolutions on Israel, but at the same time we would hold Israel to the same standards as all the Arab dictatorships -we wouldn't say anything if the Israeli government annexed the West Bank and then announced that the West Bank Arabs would not have voting rights, and the Israeli Arabs would be disenfranchised?

I suspect people would be involking the 25th Amendment on that one. That amount of realism in foreign policy is just too alien to the way most Americans think about these things.

Besides, Israel really does pose a serious international problem. You have a country whose borders have never been settled, and whose government has consistently refused to define its own borders. You have about five million people, who are neither immigrants nor refugees, who are not even citizens of the country that governs them. While Arabs in Syria don't live in a democracy, at least they are citizens and can carry Syrian passports. Many of Israel's neighbors will not give it diplomatic recognition. This is a pretty unique diplomatic situation. The closest parellels are probably Taiwan and apartheid era South Africa, and both were major international issues despite the relative lack of Jews, and the lack of oil.

Re Ed

Mr. Ed is seriously in error concerning the inhabitants of Syria. The Palestinian Refugees there live in concentration camps, are denied citizenship in Syris, have no rights there, and can be seriously harmed if they try to leave the camps.

"....or to stop Muslim-Hindu violence in Kashmir, Muslim-Christian violence in Indonesia and the Philippines, Muslim-Buddhist violence in Thailand, Muslim-animist violence in Sudan, Muslim-Igbo violence in Nigeria, Muslim-Muscovite violence in Chechnya..."

Kashmir -- Central Asia, Not the Middle East
Indonesia -- SE Asia, Not the Middle East
Phillippines -- Dito
Thailand -- Dito
Sudan -- Africa, Not the Middle East
Nigeria -- Dito
Chechnya -- Central Asia, Not the Middle East

Uh also, can we put down my vote for seriously curtailing our backing of Israel? Thanks.

From that list it DOES seem to make something of a case that Muslims are heavily involved in sectarian/rebellious causes AS Muslims (rather than for other reasons and they happen to BE Muslims).

I think that Mr Luttwak has not kept up to date on Muslim violence. IIRC there isn't all that much Muslim Christian violence in Indonesia at the moment, but more to the point, Sudan has put its tragic history of Muslim-Animist violence behind it and is now focused on Muslim-Muslim violence (has Mr Luttwak heard of Darfur ? Does he think there is an animist anima viva there ?).

On Israel, clearly, if one doesn't give a damn, one could save the bucks.

Re Robert Waldman

The State of Israel is the only place in the Middle East where the US is guaranteed of a place to land a plane 6 months from now.

Attached link refutes the Israel bashers on this blog.

http://web.israelinsider.com/views/11298.htm

MNPundit - what is the common theme of all the areas you named? Militant Islam perhaps?

The notion that Christians, Jews and Muslims all lived together peacefully before Israel is a myth. When Christians and Jews accepted their dhimmi status they were allowed to exist. When people ask "What about the Crusades?" I reply "What about the Byzantine Empire?"

We should back Israel because they are a true democracy surrounded by a sea of repressive, totalitarian regimes. When Israel was created they were immediately invaded by their neighbors. The Israelis won through force of arms so they now get to call the shots. Look at the Hamas and Hezbollah charter. If the US had to go through what Israel has been through in our first 60 years we would have a lot more blood than we already do on our hands. The reality of survival makes for some tough choices. The Palestinians were given numerous chances to come to a peace settlement. Someone earlier mentioned Clinton's efforts. Why do the Palestinians get to walk away from the Wye River accords and the Israelis get the blame? Anti-Israeli rhetoric is in vogue but I think a careful review of the history of the Middle East would show them to be a people dedicated to democracy surrounded by people sworn to destroy them. The responsibility of any government is the security of its people. The democratically elected government of Israel is forced to make hard calls in order to ensure the survival of the electorate and the country.

My solution? Build the damn wall and be done with it. Arabs spend enough time fighting amongst themselves without the excuse of Israel interposed into the discussion.

BTW - I am not Jewish. I am a Hispanic from Middle America.

I think Luttwak is pretty much right about the Israeli-Palestinian problem. It's a cliche of Middle Eastern lore, but nonetheless true, that the regimes of that part of the world have a built-in scapegoat in the form of Israel for all of their problems. If Israel and the Palestinians settled things, they would still be able to blame something called Zionism, which seems to be a colorless, odorless gas that seems in everywhere and keeps the Arab world from blooming and peace from descending over the entire region.

Mr. Marshall is one of those deluded individuals who is absolutely convinced that the secret to solving the Israel/Palestinian problem is to apply the pressure on Israel to stop being beastly towards the Palestinians.

I'm don't see the Jewish Israeli's as anything different under the sun than the French Algerians or the Afrikanners, I've never heard any good reason they are different outside the supernatural or a sort of victim's dispensation that the Palestinians got stuck with the tab for. So I'd say the problem goes way, way, beyond trying to pressure them into behaving more nicely, that's way more a labour zionist sort of thesis and one that has obvious flaws.

My point was that in the same post you dismissed Muslim concerns over their fate of Palestine, as an American on a different continent you express your belief in revisionist zionist enforced by terrorism.

Re Ed Marshall

"I'm don't see the Jewish Israeli's as anything different under the sun than the French Algerians or the Afrikanners, I've never heard any good reason they are different outside the supernatural or a sort of victim's dispensation that the Palestinians got stuck with the tab for"

Mr. Marshall has fallen for the Palestinians big lie, namely that Jews who migrated to Palestine displaced native Palestinians who had lived there for generations. I would suggest that Mr. Marshall consult Mark Twains' comments upon his tour of Palestine in the 1860s wherein he found that the area was practically depopulated. For example, the City of Jerusalem had fewer inhabitants then his native St. Joseph, Mo., not exactly a major American metropolis. The fact of the matter is that most of the current Arab population of Palestine, like much of the current Jewish population of Palestine, are the descendants of individuals who migrated there from elsewhere during the latter part of the 19th and early part of the 20th century. Thus, the situation in Palestine is totally different then the situations in South Africa and Algeria. This fact, of course will not stop the Israel bashers from repeating their big lies as they follow the precepts of Nazi propaganda minister Josef Goebbels who said that the way to get people to believe in a lie was to make it a big one and repeat it loudly and often.

Ah, Mark Twain. An always-reliable source for hard, well-reasearched data.

"I'm don't see the Jewish Israeli's as anything different under the sun than the French Algerians or the Afrikanners, I've never heard any good reason they are different outside the supernatural or a sort of victim's dispensation that the Palestinians got stuck with the tab for. So I'd say the problem goes way, way, beyond trying to pressure them into behaving more nicely, that's way more a labour zionist sort of thesis and one that has obvious flaws."

There is an obvious problem with this formulation, I think. About half of the Jewish Israelis didn't come from Europe, their roots are in Palestine under the Ottomans or British (or even before, since there has been a continuous Jewish presence in Palestine for as long as we have any records at all), or they were expelled from the surrounding Arab countries and Iran and entered as refugees. That is, you can't characterize the Jewish population of Israel as exclusively made up of European settlers. That means that about half of the Jewish population of Israel have or had Arab, Persian, or Kurdish cultural identities. Since there is no ancient residency test on Palestinians as to their claims on the land, there can't be one on half the Jewish population. So this is just not a correct formulation.

Re James Gary

Does Mr. Gary have another eyewitness source who refutes Mark Twains observations? Like somebody who found Jerusalem to be a thriving metropolis in the 1860s?

Re frank

Mr. frank doesn't understand the mentality of the Israel bashers. To them, Jews don't count.

Who cares how the population is characterized, in terms of ancestry, or what the density was back in Mark Twain's day?

What's striking is that the people in comments backing Israel sound like they are making a legal case about who in the region has behaved justly, who has behaved unjustly, and prescribing our policies based on that.

Those saying we should stop backing Israel, on the other hand, are making arguments about what is best for US interests.

Our foreign policy should not be decided based on how self-righteous it makes certain people feel. This is why I mentioned in my first comment that I think excessive sentamentality is the biggest hurdle we need to overcome.

Also, about how our propping up Saudi Arabia boils down to providing arms and diplomatic cover: I'm sure there are plenty of other people who they could buy arms from, and I don't consider us selling arms to them at the market rate to be propping them up any more than them selling oil to us at the market rate to be propping us up.

As for diplomatic cover: I'm not sure what this means. Does it keep you dry when its raining out, or something?

the ME is dying. It has grossly inflated populations that produce nothing and they are running out of oil. They are jumping ship and heading to Europe which has a lack of population problem therefore is a weak "host".

Not really. The main sources of Muslim immigrant populations for Europe are Algeria and the Maghreb generally (France), Somalia and the Indian subcontinent (UK) and Turkey (Germany). None of these are failing oil states. There is very little immigration to Europe from, say, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or the GCC.

Or more briefly: you don't know what you are talking about, you silly person. Go away or I will mock you a second time.

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I believe this one applies "Unless each man prodiuses more than he receives, increases his output, there will be less for him than all the others", doesn't it?

This one makes sence "One's first step in wisdom is to kuesstion everything - and one's last is to come to terms with everything."

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