« Meet The New Boss | Main | Jazz-Warriors » Jihad TV07 May 2007 11:13 pm This rather shocking series of Hamas indoctrination videos comes to us via Sullivan and Weigel. Sara tells me that children young enough to be appropriate targets for the mouse character and the pastel colors normally aren't capable of following segments this long or this sort of conceptual vocabulary, for whatever it's worth. Comments (54)
Come on Matt, we all know that Palestinian Media Watch doesn't give a damn about Palestinian children. 
I guess I missed the shocking part.
Sara tells me that children young enough to be appropriate targets for the mouse character and the pastel colors Um, can Sara tell us what age pastel colors are appropriate for? I didn't realize that colors are age appropriate. And Mickey too - what age can I cut the son off and say "sorry, that's not appropriate for you any more"?
Perhaps I'm missing something here, but wasn't America filled with virulently anti-Japanese/anti-German cartoons for children during WWII? And wasn't it also the main theme of all the American comic books back then, including a bunch of brand-new heroes such as Captain America? And all this occurred without a single square inch of America soil being under enemy occupation or a single American civilian in the States being killed or injured. Folks, I hate to alarm you, but there is a (sort of) war currently going on between the Israelis and the Palestinians, and nearly all the Palestinians have lived under "enemy" occupation for about 40 years.
And lemme guess -- Sullivan takes this as a reason for the U.S. to get more mired in the most hate-infested region on the planet? A region with something like a few percent of the entire world's population, one might add....
Oh please. Your comparisons to Jesus Camp are wholly distorted and unfair to Pentacostal Christians. Jesus Camp was operated with far superior production values.
Deeply troubling, to be sure, but let's recognize that this is the production of a group of people who have been living under a brutal military occupation that has denied them their basic humanity for several decades, and the mistreatment gets worse every year. What would we expect to find there? Peter, Paul and Mary? Do you think we're going to see enlightened expressions of brotherly love from the population of Iraq any time soon? It just doesn't work that way. When you occupy and brutalize a population, you radicalize and militarize it.
That mouse is really giving me a headache. Couldn't they get a mouse with a non-grating voice? I know Mickey's is kind of annoying too, but did they really have to adopt that aspect also? Moreover, they're infringing on Disney's Mickey Mouse copyright (trademark?)...Though, a suicide bomber would probably make for a pretty effective answer to Disney's complaint...
RKU, Well yes, there's a "(sort of) war" going on, as important to the Israelis and Palestinians as WWII was to the US and Japan. Maybe that's not news to you, but a lot of people don't seem to realize it. Many criticize Israel for assassinating Hamas leaders, or for setting up check-points: incredibly mild actions compared to what went on in WWII or any war the US has been involved in. Maybe this video will help them to put Israeli actions in context, and understand that Israel isn't doing these things just because they're big meanies.
Palestinian Media Watch? Last time I checked the Palestinian territories were occupied by Zionists? I find the video fairly mild given the situation. I only watched half of it, so maybe I missed the end were it gets bad. Isn't Palestinian Media Watch, like MEMRI, designed to highlight anything that presents the Palestinians in as negative light as possible as to justify Israeli actions? Also PMW likes to talk about the Palestinian textbooks, but last time I checked, Israeli textbooks are just as bad.
Sglover, what's with the Sullivan-bashing? Do you even know Andrew's position on this issue? RKU, yeah we did that kind of stuff in WWII. But we're not proud of it. You don't see those cartoons in syndication anymore. We committed wholesale genocide in WWII as well, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be shocked to see genocide perpetrated by others now. The shocking part of this is that we live in a world where it's relatively easy to tell the difference between media that tries to entertain and educate, and media that exists solely to influence. In the Arab Muslim world, it's not that easy, and here's a perfect example. This Palestinian TV show exists solely to indoctrinate children with misguided nationalist pride and hatred towards Jews. Whatever your position on the Israel-Palestine issue, that can't make anyone here feel too good. And Ben, that Wikipedia page about Israeli textbooks seems to portray them in a positive light. Can you provide a link that will support, rather than refute, your argument?
That's one creepy little girl. Wonder what she has for breakfast?
Many criticize Israel for assassinating Hamas leaders, or for setting up check-points: incredibly mild actions compared to what went on in WWII or any war the US has been involved in. Maybe this video will help them to put Israeli actions in context, and understand that Israel isn't doing these things just because they're big meanies. During WWII Germany had conquered much of Europe, had eyes on much more of the world, and had the most technologically advanced military in the world. Palestinians are continually having their land conquered, have no real organized military and are woefully behind in terms of technology. Israel is not defending itself against a Germany from WWII. The consistent attempt to put Israel's situation in that frame is what is leading Israel to policies that do not serve Israelis. It is only a feeble mind that cannot see the differences between WWII and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict -- even from the perspective of those that actually live in daily battlefields.
So, to clarify the consensus view thus far developed. 24 = dangerously subversive propoganda mickey and his mouseketerroristts = fine
No, actually, the consensus is: /sarcasm off.
Scary but, in light of the "Protocols" and Muslim-blood-in-Jewish-Matzos dramas broadcast on Lebanese, Syrian and Egyptian TV, not entirely shocking. What's far more shocking is the response above from ostensibly liberal correspondents. Thanks, guys, for reminding me what to beware.
Thanks, benny, for the dose of reality. The commenters in this thread are tripping over themselves to justify this as a good thing. Far from supporting the war, I think this is some of the strongest anti-war propoganda I've seen. The idea that it's okay because the US has done shitty things before is ridiculous. I wonder if those people would support Palestinians launching an unprovoked war on the wrong enemy because, hey, the US did it! Cue comments supporting the Palestinian's right to launch unprovoked wars on the wrong enemy in 3...2...
mike: The commenters in this thread are tripping over themselves to justify this as a good thing. Well -- not here in reality, no. But thanks for pointing out what people are apparently doing in some alternate universe.
That's pretty disturbing. However, I sense a lot of the commenters are the same people who think the Iraqi people owe us a huge debt of gratitude.
"What's far more shocking is the response above from ostensibly liberal correspondents." "The commenters in this thread are tripping over themselves to justify this as a good thing." Everyone here who considers themself an ostensible liberal, raise their hand. Also, anyone who wants to justify the video as a "good thing" needs to re-state his position more strongly, because I can't see where anyone here said that. But really, guys--if YOUR country was under occupation by a foreign power, wouldn't YOU be obsessed with getting the occupiers out? Wouldn't you be trying to educate your kids to that goal, starting as young as possible?
Sglover, what's with the Sullivan-bashing? Do you even know Andrew's position on this issue? A better question might be -- Does Andy? Or to be more precise, is there anything in Sullivan's background or track record that indicates that he's a competent observer of Middle Eastern affairs? I think the answer to that has to be an emphatic "no". Given his extensive history of hysterical propaganda-mongering, I'm not inclined to cut him any slack, even if, lately, external reality has forced him to adopt views that are more congenial to lefties.
After the build up, the actual videos were a bit anti-climactic. Muslims believe Islam is true, people living under a brutal occupation hate their occupiers, Hamas believes violent resistance is justified, so what?
I'd like to argue that the majority of "liberals" in this country do not share the beliefs or attitudes of the commenters above who defended the video as an expected response to Israeli aggression and occupation. As someone who considers himself a liberal/progressive (and who is a Jew), I have been highly critical of the Israeli government's destructive policies in the West Bank and Gaza, their failure to provide support to Palestinian moderates, and their continuing refusals to reengage in substantive peace talks. Most of these failures stem from the fact that the Right-wing continues to have more influence/power than the (seemingly) hapless liberal and pro-peace Parties in Israel. For those who continue to see this conflict as purely one-sided, and the very real suffering of the Palestinian people the result only of Israeli brutality and occupation, I would remind them that just as the Israeli Right has strengthened Palestinian militants and radicalized much of the Palestinian population, so has the Palestinian militants (Hamas, Islamic Jihad) through terror pushed the Israeli population to the Right, resulting in big wins for Likud and (in 2001) Ariel Sharon. Also, the group responsible for making this video does not simply want to end the occupation in the West Bank and Gaza, they want to end Israel's very existence in that region (and they say as much in the video). There are large numbers of Israelis, average citizens and politicians, who want peace, who are fighting for a just two-State solution; however Palestinian militants, such as Hamas, have done everything in their power to sabotage this goal, as have those on the Israeli Right. No "liberal" or any person concerned about the Palestinian people should come up with reasons to excuse (or explain away) such a piece of vile propaganda, particularly when it's aimed at children. Such videos only serve to feed the propaganda of Right-wing politicians and pundits (in Israel and the U.S.), providing them additional ammunition to instill fear and hatred as well as come up with more excuses not to engage with Palestinian moderates (and neighboring Arab countries) to find a just solution to this long and tragic conflict.
Emes: No "liberal" or any person concerned about the Palestinian people should come up with reasons to excuse (or explain away) such a piece of vile propaganda, particularly when it's aimed at children. Do you have the same reaction when the shoe's on the other foot? I.e., would you say the same thing to Palestinian moderates who -- when equivalent vile Israeli propaganda is seized upon and promoted by Hamas -- pointed out that it doesn't come out of nowhere...that the Holocaust actually happened, that Hamas has really engaged in hideous suicide bombings killing hundreds of civilians?
"No "liberal" or any person concerned about the Palestinian people should come up with reasons to excuse (or explain away) such a piece of vile propaganda, particularly when it's aimed at children." I'm neither excusing it nor explaining it away. To repeat what Bill said above "people living under a brutal occupation hate their occupiers." Pointing out that Hamas says it "[wants] to end Israel's very existence in that region" is just disigenuous. I doubt if Polish resistance fighters' rhetoric in 1942 consisted of fair-minded proposals for re-establishment of the 1938 borders.
Look, resistance to occupation etc. etc. is I'm sure the Sri Lankan LTTE does the same thing,
But this is aimed at kids and its a conscious
I see, via James Gary, it's Israel=Nazis again. I particularly like his use of "Polish resistance fighters". I guess "Jewish ghetto fighters" wouldn't have worked, eh?
Also, note that the callers are 11 and 12 years old. I don't know much about Palestinian culture, but I know from living in Taiwan that kids there are into fuzzy animals and whatnot at a much later age than would be considered normal in America, so I think Sarah was overgeneralizing.
people living under a brutal occupation hate their occupiers. This is true. What's also true is that most Palestinians live inside an echo chamber of constant propaganda and distorted information. And so, without any proper perspective to understand their situation, they dig themselves in deeper. The militants interpret Israel's goodwill gesture of withdrawing from the Gaza as a sign of Israel's defeat, and escalate the fight. Look, you can understand where people's ignorance comes from, without actually sympathising with it, which is what some of the commenters here seem to be doing.
Benny, if you think Israel's withdrawal from Gaza was a "goodwill gesture" you might consider that the Palestinians aren't the only ones living in an echo chamber.
Uh huh. Explain, Bill.
grh: Thanks for you comment. First, can you give me an example of "vile Israeli propaganda"? I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, as there are certainly hateful (anti-Arab) Right-wing groups within Israel (though they make up a minority of the population)- I would just like to see an example. (Note also: many Israelis may be moderate-conservative or hawkish on security issues, but I believe that most generally are so out of a concern for their and their country's security, NOT out of hatred of Palestinians.) One of the points that I tried to make in my original post was that the Right in Israel DOES engage in actions (political, policy, propaganda) that embolden and strengthen Palestinian militants, at the expense of Palestinian moderates (and the Palestinian people). One of my biggest points of frustration with the Israeli government of the last six years, has been their (and Sharon's in particular) conscious (I believe) effort to marginalize Palestinian moderates- who represent the key to a just solution to the conflict (i.e. two-State solution), which the Right in Israel (I believe) generally opposes. James: I hesitate to respond to a post that seeks to compare Hamas with Polish Resistance fighters in WWII, as any person who is able to convince himself or herself of the appropriateness of such an analogy is not likely to be responsive to a reason-based argument (or debate) of this complex and difficult issue. Please note, I am not saying that people should not or cannot disagree with me, of course they can and should- I would only hope that their arguments where more thoughtful and informed. For example (and I cannot believe I am even taking the time to point this out), but the Polish Resistance fighters did not take the time to consider “proposals for re-establishment of the 1938 borders” because such an option was never on the table. The Nazis wished to kill them all. Period. No negiotiations. Nor did the Polish Resistance actively seek (as a policy or otherwise) to wipe Germany, as a nation, off the map. Nor did the Polish Resistance, as far as I know, actively work to indoctrinate and/or preach hate and intolerance to their children or other Poles (against the Nazis perhaps, but not the German people). Nor was the Polish Resistance attempting to undermine legitimate peace agreements that would bring peace to a region that had experienced only war and death for almost an entire Century. That being said, I do not see how it is "disingenuous" to note that Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist. Arguments where made in previous posts that this type of reaction/propaganda was to be expected from people who are being occupied. That may be true, and may explain why the average Palestinian would find a lot to agree with in that video (or at least sympathy with its political point of view). However, the most Palestinians, despite their feelings of anger and resentment toward Israel, I believe simply want to live their lives in peace, and provide for their families; subsequently, I also believe that if given the option, most would probably accept a two-State solution simply to end the conflict, end the occupation, and have a State of their own. I believe all of that and still find it possible (if not important) to condemn, in no uncertain terms, this piece of "vile propaganda", which seeks to undermine any chance for a just peace and continues to promote hatred and intolerance, thereby continuing the cycle of violence and hatred that has gripped the region for over the past 90 years. (And yes, I am equally appalled at any anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian propaganda that is targeted at Israeli children by Right-wing groups in Israel.)
Thank you for the highly intelligent post Emes. As a whole, I like the palestinians, have known and befriended a few, and have in fact dated one. (yes, yes I know this sounds like "I love black people!" or "I love mexican food!") But expressing sympathy for a people does not mean elevating each and every one of them to a status of wholesale victimhood. Yes this video was pulled by organizations like PMW or MEMRI, two groups whose agenda is fairly self-evident. Yes the occupation has predictably fostered militancy and radicalism among the Palestinians. But i dont think the question is "What socio-political conditions have led to the production of this video?" Neither is it "Have we in the United States done anything similar, and if so what?" The only question that needs to be asked is this: does the content of this video bring the Israelis and Palestinians any step closer to a fair, equitable peace?
"I see, via James Gary, it's Israel=Nazis again. I particularly like his use of "Polish resistance fighters". I guess "Jewish ghetto fighters" wouldn't have worked, eh?" You are so right! My crypto-Nazi leanings are once again exposed! As everyone knows, the years 1939-1944 are remembered as the "party years" for non-Jewish Poles, when they were treated so well by the occupying army that many of them expired of sheer happiness. Emes: An occupying power is an occupying power. The difference between Napoleon in Spain, Germany in Poland, and Israel in Palestine is one of degree, not kind.
James Gary, the Arab nations declared war on Israel first. It is a difference of both degree and kind.
"the Arab nations declared war on Israel first. It is a difference of both degree and kind." Oh, they STARTED it? Well, that's different, then--Israel's multi-decade-ongoing occupation is TOTALLY justified. Thanks for setting me straight.
Thanks for setting me straight. You're welcome.
Emes: can you give me an example of "vile Israeli propaganda" I posted this with links, but movable type held it for approval. Maybe it will show up eventually. In the meantime, here's a no-links version: Shas magazine for kids (in Hebrew): "the only good Arab is a dead Arab" 7th-10th grade Israeli kids write to Israeli soliders: "Screw the rules and spray them. By the way-a good Arab is a dead Arab." Rabbi of Bar-Ilan University writes in the university newspaper: "We are all obligated to commit genocide." Israeli society is chock full of this stuff. But I don't think this means Israeli culture is irredeemably sick, or that Israelis are primitive monsters. It just means Israelis are human beings, just as this TV show indicates that Palestianians are human beings. All societies under as much stress will produce this kind of stuff. I do think it's interesting you weren't familiar with the Israeli version, though. Clearly the Palestinian right wing needs a more sophisticated, better-funded propaganda apparatus -- one that sends lots of press releases to Andrew Sullivan and David Weigel.
grh: Noted. I have heard or read about some of these statements, I just wanted to better understand what you thought of as "vile Israeli propaganda". I would like to note again, however, that comments like the ones you listed above represent, I believe, the views of only a very small minority of Israelis. (I don't know who this "Rabbi of Bar-Ilan University" is, though his statement clearly indicates that religious extremism/intolerance exists in Israel just as it does in the West Bank and Gaza and elsewhere in the world) I also do not doubt that there are Israeli children who have been brainwashed by their extremist parents; many of whom (my guess is) reside in some of the more militant and isolated settlements. I strenuously disagree with you, however, that "Israeli society is chock full of this stuff." I am not sure if you have visited Israel (I have on numerous occasions), but you would understand if you had, that most Israelis do not think like this, nor as a society do they find such hateful statements acceptable. Now, this does not mean that there are not many Israelis who are distrustful of the Palestinian people, there are. It is also likely that many Israelis believe that a majority of Palestinians are not really interested in a real and lasting peace. I am also sure that there exists various levels of bigotry among Israelis in regards to Palestinians and Arabs in general (there's such bigotry in our own country, and we have not been at war with a particular group for over 90 years). However, the distrust some Israelis may have for Palestinians, I would argue, generally DOES NOT manifest itself in the type of hatred you described, but rather in how Israelis as a population VOTE (i.e. for Likud or Olmert/Kadima). And as I said in my original post, Israeli attitudes have been influenced greatly over the past decade by acts of terror committed by Palestinian militants (who I believe, for their own part achieved exactly what they set out to do by undermining any hope for a just peace by convincing Israelis to vote for Right-wing politicians who, like the Palestinian militants themselves, oppose a two-State solution). I would also note that there exists a degree of emotional/rational disconnect on both sides of the conflict in that even while the Israelis voted for Ariel Sharon in 2001 and 2003, polls at the time indicated that a majority of Israelis supported a peace agreement based on a two-State solution- something that was never going to happen under Sharon’s leadership. Similarly, while polls indicated, during the same period, that a majority of Palestinians supported acts of terror against Israelis, polls also indicated that a majority of Palestinians would accept a two-State solution if presented to them as a final peace agreement. I guess my point is that extremists on both sides obtain their influence and consolidate their power largely by playing on the fear, anger, and hatred of the masses; which is unfortunate, because if given the opportunity I think both populations would take a chance on peace, if the opportunity where ever presented to them. I guess my final thought on this is: I have, and will continue, to condemn any form of expressed hatred or hate-filled propaganda, regardless of which side produces it. This morning I saw something from the extremists on the Palestinian side, and as I am accustomed, I immediately condemned it. I guess I wrote my initial post in response to what I viewed as an effort by some to excuse or rationalize away the video as completely understandable. It may be understandable that the average Palestinian might, as a result of living under occupation, express sympathy with the message; however this does not excuse the group that actually produced it, particularly when the group itself (Hamas), and its actions, has contributed (and continues to contribute) greatly to the continuing suffering of the Palestinian people.
The only question that needs to be asked is this: does the content of this video bring the Israelis and Palestinians any step closer to a fair, equitable peace? Fair is a term that people will fight over, but you can look at the political gains made by Palestinians and it's undeniable that their gains were zero (scratch that, they lost ground)before the resistance became violent. That's just a fact.
check out the vice guide to travel segment from palestine...it's similarly disheartening
Fair is a term that people will fight over, but you can look at the political gains made by Palestinians and it's undeniable that their gains were zero (scratch that, they lost ground)before the resistance became violent. That's just a fact.
We'll pretend for a minute that Oslo was some sort of high water mark for Palestinian aspirations: They still didn't get there by asking nicely, that was more or less the MO from 1967 to the first intifada and the results were abysmal.
I second the views of those who've criticized this post because of the video source. Palestine Media Watch is part of the CAMERA, MEMRI, Frontpagemagazine nexus of Arab-hating right wing media. I don't have much use for Hamas. But I have even less use for these Arab haters. Let's not get sucked into helping disseminate their hate for them.
for me the first thing that i read from it, is its both primitive and desperate. The video is fundamentally about resistance and instilling a sense of hope in continuing a fight that they have no choice to fight. You have to remember, Zionism is a colonial movement that does not want Palestinians there, its wants them out, and has been used extreme force to ensure that for the last 60 years. There are no terms of surrender, its either you stay and struggle or you leave. Moshe Dayan said it 40 years ago, when asked what to do with the Palestinians in the newly occupied territories, he said "They shall live like Dogs, and whoever wishes to leave may leave" Theres no middle path, and most dont have a place to go, so that means they have to struggle being humiliated and oppressed every single moment of their lives. When you are fighting against a colonial regime like Israel, which is backed unconditionally by the worlds only superpower, youre gonna need something to get you to the end of each day. Not the bullshit that is sold on white people in America (Jesus Camp), to make them believe they are minority and downtrodden when in fact they are the dominant racial group and have been since its horrific inception. One can ask how effective this type of shit is in instilling a sense of hope for these people. i imagine that no one watches it because its so damn primitive and TV is fundamentally used an escape from reality, but i could be wrong. regardless, i cant blame people for grasping onto something when they are literally fighting for their lives under conditions like those. The thing that disturbs me the most is the Mickey Mouse look-a-like. For christ sakes, define yourselves independent from American capitalist culture. Your not doing yourselves any favors by mimicing the cultural icons of the state which is highly responsible for your oppression. Salviati New York, NY
Correction to last post: Not the bullshit that is sold on white people in America (Jesus Camp), to make them believe they are minority and downtrodden when in fact they are the dominant racial group and have been since the states horrific inception.
Benny, The withdrawal from Gaza was not a goodwill gesture because it was unilateral, made in the context of Sharon's insistence that Israel had no partner for peace, was accompanied by an intensification of Israeli control over the West Bank, and was not suggested by the Israelis to lead to talks or further moves. There is a much stronger argument that it was a tactical withdrawal of Israeli forces from protecting the settlements in favor of controlling the borders. As such, it was a response to Hamas violence. All of Israel's territorial withdrawals--from the Sinai, from South Lebanon, from Gaza--have been in response to violence.
Actually, the Israeli reactions to the Palestinians are simply a response to the millennium-old occupation of the Israeli homeland, which was recently (circa 1948) overturned by the UN and circumstance. Funny, nobody ever seems to see history from that point of view, though. What? Jews can't have a homeland, but every other ethnic group in the world can? It's not like Jews left Israel voluntarily. Oh, it was a long time ago? And your point is?
Ed Marshall: The PLO was established in 1964, three years before the occupation of the territories. Terrorist attacks in Israel were pretty much nonstop from before her inception. The Hebron Massacre in 1929 murdered or drove off most of the remaining Jews in what is now the West Bank city of Hebron. (That was before the establishment of the State of Israel, FYI.) Funny how these facts never get out in the light of day during discussions like this one. Go ahead. Tell me how it's all the innocent, oppressed Palestinians, whose lands were stolen from them. I'd love to see you manage to explain away the Hebron Massacre.
Well, passingthru, if by these facts being never brought up you mean always, you have a point. And no, every other ethnic group in the world doesn't have a homeland, and if you don't believe me, ask a Roma.
Terrorist attacks in Israel were pretty much nonstop from before her inception. Do you really want to talk about terrorism in Mandate Palestine?
I knew I was right to be suspicous of anything provided by Palestine Media Watch. Matt, you owe it to yr readers to read this piece by Brian Whittaker, which takes apart the mostly bogus translation for this video provided by MEMRI: A little more caution and dubiousness is called for regarding relying on sources like PMW & MEMRI.
Comments closed May 21, 2007. |
Search
Subscribe to this blog by Email Books by Matthew Yglesias
Recent Comments
Recent Posts
Weekly Archives
Categories
|
Copyright © 2008 by The Atlantic Monthly Group. All rights reserved.
| 
Heads in the Sand
Like Jesus camp, only less effective.
Posted by Tom Ames | May 7, 2007 11:31 PM