Matthew Yglesias (May 14, 2007) - Like Rain on Your Wedding Day (Domestic Policy)

Dude, it's like rain on your wedding day, which is bad and, come to think of it, kind of ironic. See, this song makes perfect sense.

More seriously, in my experience Alanis Morisette is only taken seriously by people that worship Clerks and Mall Rats. But that's just me.

Posted by fnook | May 14, 2007 11:30 PM

I have a longstanding contention that the not-actually-ironic nature of the various purported examples of irony in the song is the ironic part and not just some kind of coincidence.

I think you may be ascribing too much subtlety to the writer of "You Oughta Know."

Posted by Duvall | May 14, 2007 11:33 PM

Far too kind to alanis, i think. In your view, there's no way for her to fail at being ironic. Either the examples would be themselves ironic or their non-ironicness would be ironic in a meta way. So once she decided to write a song about irony with examples in it, she's perforce already succeeded in being very clever.

Plus, the counter-stereotypical, frustrating nature of the examples is so colorably close to irony--enough that one might justly accuse the lyricist of misunderstanding the concept.

Posted by southpaw | May 14, 2007 11:37 PM

I guess my question is, why do we think McNulty tried to level with the committee, apart from the recurrent testimony of Schumer to that effect, Schumer who has consistently been covering for McNulty? For various reasons, McNulty found his interests at odds with those of Gonzales and the White House, and he fought for a while, and he had a powerful protector in Schumer, and now he's given up, for reasons that remain obscure - maybe it became clear Gonzales was going to stay and outlast him, maybe it became clear that he was such damaged goods for having given manifestly false testimony to Congress, that federal judgeship was a goner, who knows. But in any case, what evidence is there for McNulty's good will and good faith apart from Schumer?

And don't get me started on McNulty's track record.

Posted by Jeff | May 14, 2007 11:51 PM

"I'll admit to feeling silly for what amounts to literally passing on talking points from the DSCC but speaking about Paul McNulty's resignation, Chuck Schumer gets it just right"

Schumer is sending around Alanis Morissette videos to respond to McNulty's resignation?

That's really fucking weird. It's not ironic in the least.

-----

Supposed Former Infatuation Junkie is an immensely underrated album.

Posted by Petey | May 14, 2007 11:58 PM

Isn't blogging ironic, don't you think?

It's like the 'personal info' box that just doesn't work,
It's being paid to wear your pajamas and type in the dark,
It's the political advice delivered with snark,

And who would have thought ... it paysyourbills?

Posted by Sam L. | May 15, 2007 12:00 AM

"As a bonus, this also works for today's 90s Nostalgia Blogging (N.B. this feature will end on Saturday when the Ultimate Nineties Alt Rock Party happens)"

And just for the record, Matthew's taste in 90's music nostalgia is pretty damn execrable. It's as if he doesn't know a single song from the 90's that wasn't #1 on the hit charts.

I hope to god someone else is DJ-ing the party, or else folks are going to be literally dying of kitsch overload by 10pm.

Posted by Petey | May 15, 2007 12:04 AM

I'll try again.

Isn't blogging ironic, don't you think?

It's like your computer crashing right before you click post,
It's Matthew Yglesias agreeing with Kaus,
It's the awesome convention that the Heritage Foundation hosts,

And who would have though ... it figures.

Posted by Sam L. | May 15, 2007 12:18 AM

I vote that the examples she uses in the song precisely fit the colloquial sense of "ironic."

To make the argument that she does not do so (when everyone knows that these examples are exactly how everyone uses the word "ironic") is merely a device used to show that the person making the point knows the "real" meaning of "ironic."

Posted by alex | May 15, 2007 12:20 AM

okay dude, i have to use one of the blog terms i despise and "call bullshit".

matt, you know and i know that you don't REALLY believe that alanis morrisette was intentionally using non-ironies. sure, it's a fun "fake" argument to make among friends, but please don't pretend you really believe that.

it's one of those things that makes Chuck Klosterman so difficult for me to really enjoy.

Posted by xjerryx | May 15, 2007 12:28 AM

It's as if he doesn't know a single song from the 90's that wasn't #1 on the hit charts.

My understanding of the exercise was that the songs are supposed to be representative of 90s "modern rock" in the MTV sense; i.e., they ought to have attained a certain threshold of popularity. Thus no Yo La Tengo, for one example.

Of course Morissette wasn't really 'alt' even in the diluted Stone Temple Pilots sense of the term (not that that matters much, I'll take Alanis over STP if forced to choose one or the other).

Posted by kth | May 15, 2007 12:34 AM

I guess it isn't technically ironic that Robert Horry, famous for taking big shots in the last seconds of games, finished this by hitting... a 3? No, a little Phoenix Suns point guard.

But it is pretty funny. Heck of a game by Nash, anyway. Those behind-the-back backwards passes were special.

Posted by Neil the Ethical Werewolf | May 15, 2007 12:46 AM

I am gratified that this topic gives me the first opportunity since 1998 to point out that Alanis does not actually insist that these incidents are ironic. Rather, she asks the question "Isn't it ironic?", to which "No, not remotely." seems a perfectly acceptable answer.

Posted by Mike Levy | May 15, 2007 12:51 AM

Mike Levy,

I'm afraid that won't fly:

It's meeting the man of my dreams
And then meeting his beautiful wife
And isn't it ironic...don't you think
A little too ironic...and, yeah, I really do think...

A little too subtle, good sir.

Posted by southpaw | May 15, 2007 12:55 AM

N.B. this feature will end on Saturday when the Ultimate Nineties Alt Rock Party happens

Oh, okay. Upon hearing this, I think I'd like to revise my remarks against general interest/pop culture blogging ... I think it was just the thought of daily 90s nostalgia youtube that instilled the panic. I mean, yes, I'm a child of the '90s too, but I think that's why I'm a little averse to nostalgia blogging ... it feels a bit too recent.

Posted by Nicholas Beaudrot | May 15, 2007 1:05 AM

Mike Levy: 1 minute and 9 seconds from the end of the song, Alanis replies to her query "Isn't it ironic, don't you think? A little too ironic?" with the affirmative statement "I really do think."

Anyway, couldn't some of these things be ironic given a proper backstory? Mightn't rain on your wedding day be ironic if you paid to fly your entire family to San Diego from DC because you wanted an outdoor wedding where you could be assured it wouldn't rain, and then it turned out to rain there whereas it was nice and dry in DC? Or the free ride when you already paid could be ironic if you consciously ordered a cab because they are more reliable than hitching, but then your cab broke down and you had to hitch anyway and lost your money. The traffic jam when you're already late could be ironic if it is on a "short cut" you took, while the unusually good traffic on your regular route might have ended up getting you to your destination on time anyway. Correct me if those don't fit the "strict" definition of ironic.

Terrible music video though. I especially hate the Alanis with a yellow sweater.

Posted by Sam L. | May 15, 2007 1:07 AM

Sam, if you're willing to surround the described situations with the perfect contexts, she could have sung about any random stuff whatsoever and called it ironic and it would've counted.

Posted by Neil the Ethical Werewolf | May 15, 2007 1:21 AM

"Heck of a game by Nash, anyway. Those behind-the-back backwards passes were special."

The two man game between Nash and Amare down the stretch was pretty fucking amazing.

-----

This series is Tarantino-esque in it's gratuitous violence.

From the surreal bloody nose in game 1, to Bowen trying to snip Amare's achilles tendon in game 2, to Horry's assault and battery in game 4...

Good stuff.

-----

I'd be astonished if Horry isn't gone a game. I'd toss him two games for going after a star.

If anything happens to Stoudamire and Diaw, it's time to stage a coup against the evil regime of David Stern.

-----

I've been telling y'all all playoffs long that the Spurs were vulnerable to speed.

The saddest man in America tonight must be Chris Webber. He's just gone from playing 40 minutes a night in the Finals guarding Tim Duncan to never getting off the bench in the Finals playing the Suns.

Posted by Petey | May 15, 2007 1:29 AM

I vote that the examples she uses in the song precisely fit the colloquial sense of "ironic."

To make the argument that she does not do so (when everyone knows that these examples are exactly how everyone uses the word "ironic") is merely a device used to show that the person making the point knows the "real" meaning of "ironic."

"Ironic" certainly gets misused, but I really can't imagine anyone I know ever using it to describe rain on their wedding day. "Lousy", or "a bad omen", maybe, but not "ironic". I've also never heard any say not taking good advice was "ironic". "Stupid", certainly. And whenever trains were delayed and they'd give everyone a free ride, my dad, who had a monthly pass, always said it was "unfair". It wasn't even that, really, but my dad was always a bit obsessive about train fares.

Posted by Royko | May 15, 2007 1:37 AM

yeah, but that Alanis version of "My Humps" almost compensates for the fact that she probably didn't read deMan's "The Rhetoric of Temporality" back in the day....

Posted by nick | May 15, 2007 1:39 AM

MY's taste in 90's music really does suck. Personally, for my 90's experience, I prefer Bikini Kill. I even went to one of their concerts at their height! Of course, that concert was inside a college dorm house and we had to crash it to get in, but it was still great!

Posted by Dan the Man | May 15, 2007 3:57 AM

Hey, cool out. Just everyone... cool out. Cool out!

I can't believe all the Alanis-bashing. Where are you in the late 90s? You're at a Hogs game. And what are you eating? Barbeque. And what are you listening to? Alanis at full volume. And are you enjoying it? Yes you are.

And incidentally, why the STP bashing? For God's sake, is there something the matter with music that is fun to listen to? Meatplow!

Posted by minderbender | May 15, 2007 4:01 AM

One interesting stat: while the Suns have launched 5 more 3's per game than the Spurs in the regular season, the Spurs have fired more 3's in every single game of the series.

I keep expecting the Suns to use Bell and Barbosa as shooters more -- maybe run off-the-ball screens for them or something.

Posted by Neil the Ethical Werewolf | May 15, 2007 4:31 AM

As calypso artist Sparrrow sang many years ago about another banana republic,,

I am going to bring back Solomon
who would not complain to the Commission

Posted by low-tech cyclist (formerly RT) | May 15, 2007 6:20 AM

MY's taste in 90's music really does suck.

Taste has nothing to do with it. The point of the Ultimate Nineties Alt Rock Playlist is to assemble the decade's major Alt Rock hits, not to assemble the decade's good songs.

Posted by Matthew Yglesias | May 15, 2007 7:33 AM

"Taste has nothing to do with it. The point of the Ultimate Nineties Alt Rock Playlist is to assemble the decade's major Alt Rock hits, not to assemble the decade's good songs."

But beware. Bad taste makes for bad parties...

It's funny for 20 minutes, and then everyone's just standing around listening to bad music with frightened expressions on their faces.

Posted by Petey | May 15, 2007 7:41 AM

I've yet to find a catholic metric for 'good music' that's more generally applicable than 'my friends all like it, so it's what we play at parties'. That your friends all like it, too, isn't evidence of quality, it's evidence that you agree with your friends' taste in music; hardly earth-shaking data.

Posted by NBarnes | May 15, 2007 7:49 AM

"That your friends all like it, too, isn't evidence of quality"

Unless, of course, you've employed discretion in choosing friends.

Posted by Petey | May 15, 2007 7:52 AM

The problem with Matt's meta-ironic argument, as I see it, is that Alanis sings

"Mr. Play It Safe was afraid to fly
He packed his suitcase and kissed his kids goodbye
He waited his whole damn life to take that flight
And as the plane crashed down he thought..."

which IMO can actually be reasonably construed as ironic.

If every example in the song was not ironic Matt's point might stand, but this counterexample strongly suggests that she just didn't know what she was writing about.

Posted by Ziggy | May 15, 2007 8:28 AM

FYI, a contributor to CollegeHumor.com rewrote the song so all of Alanis's examples actually ARE ironic, i.e.:

"An old man turned ninety-eight. He won the lottery and died the next day... of chronic emphysema from inhalation of the latex particles scratched off decades' worth of lottery tickets."

The whole thing is at

http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1711139

Posted by James Gary | May 15, 2007 8:34 AM

Actually Ziggy, the full last line of the lyrics you quoted is:

"And as the plane crashed down, he thought 'well, this is nice.'"

--and the phrase 'well, this is nice,' in this context, is pretty much the only real, dictionary-definition ironic thing in the whole song-- what Mr. Play-It-Safe says is the opposite of what he's feeling.

It's actually sort of..um..uh...dramatic-in-a-highlighting-the-contrast-between-two-alternatives way that you chose that particular quote.

Posted by James Gary | May 15, 2007 8:49 AM

Every time I see a picture of Alanis, I get this urge to dump a tub of green goo on her head. Wouldn't that be ironic? ;)

Posted by rea | May 15, 2007 9:18 AM

"literally" passing along talking points - was that meant ironically?

Posted by Charlie | May 15, 2007 9:23 AM

JG,

"-and the phrase 'well, this is nice,' in this context, is pretty much the only real, dictionary-definition ironic thing in the whole song"...

Agreed on the dictionary-definition, but in my mind saying the opposite of what one's feeling is more accurately captured as "sarcasm" than "irony".

Posted by Ziggy | May 15, 2007 9:51 AM

It rained cats and dogs on my wedding day and I don't recall the slightest bit of irony.

Posted by Steve | May 15, 2007 9:56 AM

"It rained cats and dogs on my wedding day and I don't recall the slightest bit of irony."

Well, considering that cats and dogs living together is seen as a sign of the apocalypse, if it was literally was raining cats and dogs on your wedding day, I'd say that was pretty damn ironic, don't you think?

Posted by Petey | May 15, 2007 10:25 AM

Are you going to make the full playlist available, Matt, so we your loyal and loving commenters can check for omissions and such?

Posted by Cain | May 15, 2007 10:25 AM

"It's funny for 20 minutes, and then everyone's just standing around listening to bad music with frightened expressions on their faces."

I think you miss a key point. That will only happen if everyone isn't drunk by 10pm. And if they aren't, then the party is indeed a failure.

Posted by Sam L. | May 15, 2007 10:43 AM

Agreed on the dictionary-definition, but in my mind saying the opposite of what one's feeling is more accurately captured as "sarcasm" than "irony".

I've had this debate before. Technically, sarcasm refers to the biting or cutting manner in which a comment is spoken, not saying the opposite of what one is feeling. Ironic statements are often sarcastic, but they don't have to be.

Posted by Led | May 15, 2007 10:53 AM

It's like rain...on the crops that you just watered with the last of your drinking water.

Or a free ride...to the annual mandatory-money-burning festival.

Posted by SDM | May 15, 2007 11:09 AM

The main problem is that in popular usage, "irony" has ceased to refer simply to the literary concept of expressing the opposite of the literal meaning of words. It has come to mean something like an incongruity, where something occurs that is the opposite of what we might want or expect. In that sense, I don't think the song is that offensive, insofar as it closely matches the shift in the popular meaning of the word.

In any case, the lyrics and vocals are indeed annoying, but the song does have a pretty good guitar sound.

Posted by blah | May 15, 2007 12:42 PM

Wasn't the preoccupation with irony, in itself, a hallmark of the mid-nineties?

Employer: Define irony.
Lelaina: I really can't define irony, but I know when I see it.

-Reality Bites

Wasn't there much post-9/11 hand-wringing about how we were all now post-irony? So where does the Alanis discussion put us?

Posted by sangfroid826 | May 15, 2007 1:45 PM

I liked her better on You Can't Do That on TV.

Posted by Linus | May 15, 2007 2:43 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_%28song%29#Linguistic_usage_disputes

Posted by Jason | May 15, 2007 8:21 PM

I think you may be ascribing too much subtlety to the writer of "You Oughta Know."
Posted by Duvall 11:33 PM

"You Oughta Know" contains a nominee (and, in my mind, the winner) for finest individual lyric in a 90's rock song -

"Every time I scratch my nails down someone else's back I hope you feel it."

I agree that Alannis is completely annoying at times, but that song kicked some serious righteous ass. And that line is rock'n'roll to its core.

Posted by nick | May 19, 2007 12:23 PM

Like Rain on Your Wedding Day

Comments (45)

Search

Books by Matthew Yglesias

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

Weekly Archives

Categories