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The Porn Myth Myth

29 May 2007 07:48 pm

"The onslaught of porn," writes Naomi Wolf, "is responsible for deadening male libido in relation to real women." An interesting claim, I thought. To make it responsibly in a journalistic context, one would want to see both convincing evidence that male libido in relation to real women has, in fact, deadened in recent years and then some kind of argument that porn is responsible. The article appeared in New York so I didn't really expect statistical proof, but anecdotal evidence, sure. Wolf doesn't have it. Instead she has this:

Here is what young women tell me on college campuses when the subject comes up: They can’t compete, and they know it. For how can a real woman—with pores and her own breasts and even sexual needs of her own (let alone with speech that goes beyond “More, more, you big stud!”)—possibly compete with a cybervision of perfection, downloadable and extinguishable at will, who comes, so to speak, utterly submissive and tailored to the consumer’s least specification?

Now, if such feelings are genuinely widespread, this is a legitimate topic for concern. But it's worth noting that it's not actually the same problem. That college women may feel insecure about their ability to "compete" with pornography seems plausible to me. That college men have lost interest in having sex with real women because they could watch porn instead strikes me as wildly implausible. No doubt things have changed on campus since I graduated (more WIFI networks, etc.) but I'd be shocked if things had changed that much.

Link courtsey of Vaness at Feministing who raises some additional objections.

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Comments (118)

I've known a small number of guys that would rather stay home and jerk off to porn, but I think most women would agree with me that in those cases its for the best.

If you guys haven't seen it, you should watch Right Between the Cheeks by the Dark Brothers. It's probably the best porno ever made. It's hillarious. It's sad. It's erotic. I'll make you laugh. It'll make you cry. It'll make you....you know what.

Deep down, women love porn, as deep down women love to be humiliated. They love to be told what to do, to be with a man in charge. You know I'm right, Matt.

I offer this gem in the way of anecdotal evidence.

Matt, you're a smart and decent guy, and you are doing a lot to improve political debates on a range of issues in this country.

But when it comes to porn and its effect on women, I'm afraid you are just one pathetic, know-nothing teenage boy.

It's really a topic you should stay away from--you only embarrass yourself, and detract from your generally well-deserved reputation for maturity and good judgement.

I can't believe this type of thing gets by an editor. I mean, seriously -- college guys don't want to have sex with college girls? That's not even a little bit plausible.

sigh: MY wasn't talking about porn's effects on women, he was talking about porn's effects on men. Because Naomi Wolf seems to be saying that porn makes men stop desiring real women. And that's just dumb.

I think it makes sense. College guys do want to have sex with college girls -- just the ones that look like porn stars. The others are identified as worthless.

I make my fuckin' broads work for it. Keggle exercises every morning.. boob jobs, pussy shaving, and then how to perform. I like her to be able to please me in every way possible.. dancing for me..getting me aroused. Must be good at oral sex..and always swallow...and must be clean..because I hate wearing a condom. it's like taking a shower with a raincoat on. And I like to creampie. I also like it when the bring their cute girlfriends in for a 3some. And I like watching the girls golden shower each other. But the heck with rentin movies. I make'm. I got a ton of videos of girls I've filmed...with me, buddies or other girls.

By the way, that NY Mag article is from October 2003. Not sure why Feministing thinks its new.

Also, unless I misunderstand, the problem is not that the college girls are complaining that they never get any sex. They're instead complaining that they aren't appealing to the college guys. Surely MY and Steves don't think that college guys will only have sex with someone that they consider appealing.

So does this mean I could finally score at will with college chicks?

Those of us who never got laid in college (or law school, or high school, or any time in between) would want to have sex with anyone, whether they look like porn stars, college girls, or anything. Pornography gets pretty old after a while (not that I would know about such things!).

It would be interesting to know what percentage of men take Viagra and Cialis because they don't find their current partners attractive...

Neil,

I have to disagree with you. There are guys who like women of all shapes, sizes, and colors. Not all guys are attracted to women who look like supermodels.

Of course, porn stars come in all shapes, colors, and sizes too.

Naomi writes, "When I came of age in the seventies, it was still pretty cool to be able to offer a young man the actual presence of a naked, willing young woman."

Naomi, trust me - it still is pretty cool.

More of them, I say.

Anyhow, it's a good thing that women aren't particularly superficial, right?

Seriously lame article.


Wolf describes a very real problem, in terms of women feeling like they can't compete with images of surgical perfection in the media, and then throws her argument away completely by singling out porn.

I don't doubt that men who watch large amounts of porn develop a bad attitude about women, but there's a 24:7 entertainment-industrial complex out there that places unrealistic expectations on women and has a wee bit more of an impact on our broader culture.

SoCalJustice,

So, are you saying that today's women would not date inarticulate, short, poor, balding, shy, slightly overweight guys while still complaining that men are superficial and only care about how a woman looks? That can't be true!!! I thought what mattered was on the inside!

Well, one would expect that individuals consumed with watching pornography would no longer seek physical encounters. Any gay guy who has used internet dating services will assure you - this does not appear to be the case.

I believe pornography might have numerous negative influences on people's decision making and attitudes towards partners and sex. I doubt that it really decreases libido though.

It's worth noting that the entertainment industry does a lot as a whole to convince women that they are unsatisfactory. One interesting thing about the porn industry - it actually does the same to men as well! Unlike Sitcoms and comedies, where ugly men have hot wives, pornography generally features a hot man with a hot woman. While the dominant/submissive dynamic certainly encourages patriarchy, the ripped, attractive young men do manage to develop an ideal that the majority of men simply cannot compete with.

Jeez - is there a larger lesson to be extrapolated to the entire entertainment industry? Nah - lets just attack pornographers.

adlsad

So, are you saying that today's women would not date...

I guess I'm just a little underwhelmed by Ms. Wolf's failure to acknowledge the truly mysterious social phenomenon that good looking, wealthy men seem to do pretty well with the ladies.

Whining about porn is more fun, though, I guess.

I actually think LaFolette Progressive has it right. So-called "average" women probably have more to fear from the Maxim Hot 100 and the [fill in the blank supermodel] assistant D.A. on Law & Order, than from porn, for unduly raising expectations for certain cross-sections of men out there.

But she's incredibly off base if she honestly believes that young men these days aren't interested in "the actual presence of a naked, willing young woman."

"Here is what young women tell me on college campuses when the subject comes up: They can’t compete, and they know it. For how can a real woman—with pores and her own breasts and even sexual needs of her own (let alone with speech that goes beyond “More, more, you big stud!”)—possibly compete with a cybervision of perfection, downloadable and extinguishable at will, who comes, so to speak, utterly submissive and tailored to the consumer’s least specification?
"

Oh cry me a fscking river.
So we are supposed to be upset that now women (supposedly) can't find sex. Welcome to the life of pretty much every high school in the West for the last 100 years.

And all this crap about women not being able to "compete". Spend some time checking out craigslist or AFF. Pretty much every female ad there has a weight and a height clause, and I'd say the majority have a length and/or width clause.

If women want to appeal to men then
(a) start choosing the right sort of men instead of obsessing over looks, wealth and sports/musical ability and
(b) offer something that porn can't. Be funny. Be interesting. Be a nice person. If the only reason any sane human male would be with you is your tits and pussy, don't be surprised when one day those aren't enough to make up for your criticism, whining, lack of ambition or whatever.

Woops that should have been
Welcome to the life of pretty much every high school MALE in the west for the last 100 years.

Unless serious evidence is produced for the claim, it should be assumed that it's nothing more than substituting hyperbole for reality, because while there might be a problem with reality, it hasn't been able to "catch on" and be recognized universally as a problem.

The irony is that such a strategy is the quickest way to end up not being taken seriously.

Indeed, it's sounding more and more to me like nothing more than another reason for girls to complain about boys.

Back in the day girls would complain about boys because boys wanted to have sex with them. Now it appears that girls are complaining about boys because they *don't* want to have sex with them.

It doesn't even matter so much whether either claim is true - it seems clear that whichever way girls perceive the situation, they will use it to complain about boys.

I continue to think that people are far more capable of distinguishing fantasy from reality than pundits give them credit for. This is even more true with porn. Actually I think porn does much less to create male expectations about women than other media for exactly this reason. Porn really is about fantasy It is about things you wouldn't do in real life. It is also about women that you don't expect to sleep with in real life. I don't expect a woman I date to look like a porn model in the same way that I don't expect to have a spontaneous threesome when I walk into a room with two women in it. Men (and some women) like porn because it is fantasy. They like actual naked women because its a hell of a lot more real than something on a computer screen. I don't see this being such an issue as the anti-porn crowd likes to believe.

"But I like fat chicks!" "I'd nail anything that moves!" Doesn't matter. This is not about you.

I think it's awfully strange that, these days, you don't have to advocate censorship of porn to draw hearty and vigorous condemnation. All you have to do is criticize it. Apparently we have now come round to the belief that porn can have no effect on interpersonal relationships, and to suggest that it could is beyond the pale.

Meh.

Sheesh, the odds are stacked so much higher against college men than college women.

College women have a greater pool of older men to choose from; by contrast, there are much fewer eligible women of legal age for college men.

Young women have high expectations for dating and relationships, while men start out with pretty low ones. The truth is that those college women are really just complaining about their limited prospects with a very tiny subset of the college male population that they deem attractive and acceptable, not the male population as a whole.

When I was in college, at some point I finally gave up on trying to find love at age 19, and decided to work instead towards building myself up to become an interesting, attractive person at age 24. It worked... and in the meantime, porn got me through some really frustrating, lonely nights.

So it annoys me when people knock on porn. The lucky men who get to have sex in college don't need porn to begin with. As for the rest of us, porn doesn't offer the hope of having sex one day with a porn star. It offers the hope of one day having sex, period.

@Neil:
No --- the issue is not criticizing porn. The issue is making statements that are clearly untrue.
Read WTF Matt said.

Wolf is making a number of grand claims, and providing no evidence for them. Such evidence as she does provide doesn't really have any relevance to her claims.

Given your statement of 9:39 "This is not about you", you appear to have a friend, or at least to know of, at least one male who has been so jaded by porn that now the only way he can screw real chicks is to first get high snorting pulverized moon rocks. Maybe so, but this is not an article about the tragedy of one or some small number of men, but about some supposed mass phenomenon.

We don't allow the president to get away with making crazy statements that fit his ideology but not reality; that rule doesn't change when it comes to two-bit "feminist" commentators.

Naomi Wolf seems to be another in a long line of media celebrity types who basically pulls it out of her butt metaphorically speaking and just makes these blanket asertions that fit her complaint of the moment. She seems to have become a bit of a prude at age 40 having been able to enjoy the sexual freedom available in her youth. I'm a little older than Naomi and perhaps the world has changed more than I think it has, but I really doubt that most college men would prefer porn to an actual real live women, flaws and all. And as someone noted, if anyone is going to get a complex from watching porn it is your "average" guy. Shessh, they must use special cameras to shoot those guys -- right?

Spend some time checking out craigslist or AFF.

You know, I'd rather not.

Forget Israel/Palestine, porn posts are the new gold standard for bringing out the worst of the comment threads.

Given your statement of 9:39 "This is not about you", you appear to have a friend, or at least to know of, at least one male who has been so jaded by porn

I don't. This isn't about me.

"
"But I like fat chicks!" "I'd nail anything that moves!" Doesn't matter. This is not about you.
"

OK, then, Neil, explain, in the context of Matt's post, which, let me remind you, is about
"That college men have lost interest in having sex with real women because they could watch porn instead strikes me as wildly implausible."
exactly what the hell your post is supposed to mean.

You know, the weird thing about this whole conversation is that it seems to presuppose that porn was invented like 5 years ago. And that therefore there is something totally different going on.

Well guess what -- I'm 40, and I watched plenty of porn in college -- and high school too. Sure, it wasn't nearly as accessible as it is now, but you could find it with little trouble. Rental VHS anyone? And when the kind that moved wasn't available, a quick jaunt down the local liquor store bought you a Penthouse or whatever.

So I guess I don't think there's anything new here. Guys like to look at (moving) pictures of women having sex, and they also like to get laid. Anyone who thinks they identify anything else in widespread, real human behavior is full of shit.

I like Naomi, but I have to agree with Matt on this one. It was extremely sloppy journalism.

Nevertheless, without making a grandiose claim, I do have an opinion. I think the porn industry does to people in general what the entertainment industry does, and that is to create unrealistic standards of what is attractive. It just so happens that the entertainment industry in general does this even more with women than it does with men, and that is part of a larger problem with sexism that we have. Also, it seems to me that porn certainly creates confusion and insecurity about what is a normal level of sexual desire in both genders, but even more so in men. A few male friends have told me that in college they felt enormous social pressure to have sex with every woman they could get their mitts on, and it made them very uncomfortable. Were they gay or not a "real" man because they didn't want to screw everything in sight? Porn doesn't exactly contradict that notion.

All that being said, I don't believe that porn is inherently harmful; I just have a few bones to pick with the industry...uh, no pun intended.

As Matt notes, Wolf offers no empirical evidence for her hypothesis. But suppose she's right. What follows?

What Wolf seems most concerned about is the loss of female social and economic power - as in her invocations of the "power and charge of sexuality", the goods that women have "to offer" and the manner in which they can and cannot "compete". She harkens back nostalgically to the day when a young woman, as keeper of the sacred sexual mysteries, could transform whole armies of sex-starved male initiates into transfixed and incapacitated lust-zombies, through the barest glimpse or touch of a breast, or hint of stocking. Now not even a voluptuous and well-trained sexual gymnast can rest secure in her ability to long sustain the interest and obedience of even one lone male.

Wolf is also concerned about a potential male sexual labor shortage due to a buyer's market if female sexuality. Satisfying one's female partner takes a certain amount of hard work. But it is work one traditionally must do to continue drawing wages from the sexual paymistress. Now what happens when those once industrious males are presented with the option of less expensive and time-consuming satisfactions? Some will choose to continue to put in the honest toil for a superior, animate product. But others will go for the cheap and inanimate knock-offs, and make use of the savings by substituting leisure - and more disposable income - for quality and intimacy. A result of this is that male sex laborers can then bargain for easier working conditions in the live human being sector of the economy.

There are social consequences to this change in economic relations. In the 21st century Porn Age version of Lysistrata, our heroine emerges from the temple of Athena, ready to effect the great treaty of peace, and looks out over the Acropolis, fully expecting to see those writhing blue-balled battalions of groaning Greek manhood imagined by Aristophanes.

But instead the Acropolis is silent and barren. Where are all those chastened and newly submissive men? Well, it appears the porn-sated louts have gone out to have a few bears with their buddies before running off to rejoin the rockin' good times on the Pellopenesian battlefields. They took their favorite erotic DVDs with them. The sexual labor strike (or was it an employer lockout) on the Acropolis was barely noticed.

What if you gave a sex-strike and nobody came?

I think the porn industry does to people in general what the entertainment industry does, and that is to create unrealistic standards of what is attractive. It just so happens that the entertainment industry in general does this even more with women than it does with men, and that is part of a larger problem with sexism that we have.

It is mistake to believe this is a problem caused by the porm industry, or even the entertainment industry in general. Those industries give people what they want. The problem is that, in our society, men want skinny, big-breasted, attractive, sexually available women. That's the patriarchy in action. The porn industry is merely a symptom of that patriarchy.

The question is, what are we as a society going to do to fight that patriarchy? Viewing porn, qua porn, has no effect on that patriarchy. The problem is viewing porn that perpetuates the patriarchy. If Matthew wants to do something to fight the patriarchy - if he wants to be a real feminist - he will not stop viewing porn (or prevent others from viewing porn). Rather, Matthew will stop viewing porn that perpetuates our patriarchical stereotypes. Viewing porn containing skinny, big-breasted, attractive women perpetuates the patriarchy; viewing porn containing overweight, small-breasted, ugly women fights the patriarchy. Matthew needs to decide whether he is going to perpetuate the patriarchy or fight it.

I can only speak for myself, but I think the opposite is true. I don't find the homogenized version of women that are presented in porn to be attractive. Too many breast implants, too much shaving, too much bleach blond hair. I much prefer a decent looking woman who has small breasts, pubic hair, and dark hair.

B+ on the concept, A- on the execution, Dan.

This thread has had several tear-inducing laugh lines. Good job guys.

MDtoMN:

"Unlike Sitcoms and comedies, where ugly men have hot wives, pornography generally features a hot man with a hot woman..."

Some of us prefer the sort of porn that features a hot woman with another hot woman.

Rich:

"Too many breast implants, too much shaving, too much bleach blond hair."

If your exposure to porn is limited to, say, what you see on the adult movie channels in business hotels, than maybe. But there's plenty more diversity in porn than this. Some men, myself included, prefer seeing natural breasts to implants -- and there are websites focussed on the natural.

One of my favorite porn sites is whippedass.com. If I could invest in the company behind this, Kink.com (founded by a guy who dropped out of Columbia's graduate finance program), I would. So instead I own stock in New Frontier Media (NOOF), a multimedia porn company. Nice dividend too.

I can only speak for myself, but I think the opposite is true. I don't find the homogenized version of women that are presented in porn to be attractive. Too many breast implants, too much shaving, too much bleach blond hair. I much prefer a decent looking woman who has small breasts, pubic hair, and dark hair.

One will find that, while perhaps underrepresented compared to their portion of the general population, women with small breasts and/or brunettes are not hard to find in mainstream pornography. Beyond that, the Internet seems to have opened up rather broad possibilities of looking at porn involving women pretty far removed from the normal stereotypical pornstar look.

I think the porn industry does to people in general what the entertainment industry does, and that is to create unrealistic standards of what is attractive.

That's an unfair statement. Aren't all standards of attractiveness arbitrary and subjective, to a certain extent? So people are complaining about suddenly being excluded now that these standards are being tightened even further? As any short Asian man or curvy Black woman would have been happy to tell you a long time ago... welcome to the club.

What's the crisis here? Someone somewhere will always hold standards higher than what they themselves are actually worth in a free (meat) market. Maybe these women are simply uncomfortable with the idea that all of a sudden, they aren't the ones who get to be picky anymore? Who knows.

Oh... A on the concept, Dan. B on the execution.

And I agree, Rich. Porn actresses are like mannequins. But I don't watch porn hoping to fall in love. I kind of like the fact that the women being filmed look generic and interchangeable, no different from hentai animations. As many have pointed out before, porn is a fantasy. I'm willing to wager that most people accept and embrace it as nothing more than that.

Well, it appears the porn-sated louts have gone out to have a few bears with their buddies before running off to rejoin the rockin' good times on the Pellopenesian battlefields.

An unfortunate typo, as it completely changes the meaning of this sentence (albeit to rather humourous ends).

At least I think it was a typo?

Unless serious evidence is produced for the claim, it should be assumed that it's nothing more than substituting hyperbole for reality

Substituting actual scientific research for, well, whatever it is that is present in this thread, we find that there may be some truth to Wolf's claim.

Cross-cultural studies of sexual attraction and beauty show that a few traits are universally valued. However, for men the beauty standard in a community is not the ideal of these traits in combination with the remaining idiosyncratic community beauty standards, but rather the most attractive females in that cohort. Males will seek the most attractive available mates and will evaluate that attractiveness in this relative context.

In our contemporary media-saturated culture, what this means is that the male relative standard for female sexual attractiveness is normed with media images of a tiny group of women representing the very extreme manifestation of the ideal traits. Where, in the past evolutionary context of the environment of adaptation, the most attractive women in a typical group was, say, five or six women of a hundred, in our modern context it is five or six women of a thousand or ten-thousand.

I probably could have been more succinct by simply saying that the situation is comparable to what recent studies have shown about relative wealth and happiness/dissatisfaction. Given this (apparently) innate male trait of evaluating beauty, it follows that men in our media-saturated culture are far more likely to be dissatisfied than are men in pre-media cultures.

Clearly, then, assuming this research is correct, the bulk of the problem is the widespread representation of female beauty in media—if porn factors into this, it probably plays only a small role.

However, there is speculation about the effect of widely available porn on sexual responsiveness. One theory is that there's a positive feedback mechanism for triggered erotic stimulation and that people natural seek out the most effective triggers. Porn obviously caters to this and thus many consumers of porn find their trigger-and-response relationship more and more narrow and specialized. It seems to me that if you combine these two effects—relative beauty normed to an absurd, very unusual extreme and highly specialized sexual response honed by porn consumption, then the result may well be something where the typical woman feels she "can't compete".

Al, you need to visit the Suicide Girls website.

On a more serious note, it's worth rescuing evolutionary biology and feminist theory from Al's snark.

The problem is that, in our society, men want skinny, big-breasted, attractive, sexually available women. That's the patriarchy in action.

While it's probably impossible to STOP men from preferring certain body types, it's rather absurd to imagine that constant reinforcement of these "ideals" has no effect on the extent to which young men and young women fixate on these ideals. Advertising works, you know. And these ideals slowly change over time. Pin-ups have changed quite a bit from the World War 2 era, and not in a healthy direction either.

Of course, Naomi Wolf's one piece of anecdotal evidence, interviews with college-aged women, should probably have led her to question the pop culture representations of sexuality they've been bombarded with since grade school, rather than supposing that everything would be swell if only the boys hadn't discovered internet porn.

In one sense, Wolf has it right, since I was going after plump/voluptuous 45 year olds rather than college chicks. "Hey, Jennifer, why don't you introduce me to your Mom?"

It seems to me that the porn industry these days offers a lot more of what I was chasing after as a college-aged lad. There's a whole new world of possibilities out there for the amorous young man.

I probably could have been more succinct by simply saying that the situation is comparable to what recent studies have shown about relative wealth and happiness/dissatisfaction.

Actually, if you follow the old adage that men are attracted to looks and women are attracted to power, then this analogy is even more apt when discussing female dissatisfaction with men: economics is DIRECTLY correlated.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just taking issue with your incomplete argument which neglects to mention the other point of view, which is that plenty of men rightly feel they can never compete with the alpha male either.

Can we at least agree that a certain percentage of both men and women will always have to settle for something less than what they would prefer, some learn to accept this and some don't, and as cruel as it may seem, nature probably intends for things to remain this way?

What could be more ridiculous than women (or Harvard philosophy majors) theorizing about porn? Next up: Karl Rove on ethical principles in politics.

And as for college men showing a lack of interest in college women ... well, at Harvard, sure. But that's nothing new.

Any chance Atlantic Online will ever hire any normal people with normal interests to blog, or is it pretty much an all-Ivy thing around here?

You people need to get out more.

Keith, any chance you could link to some of that research you're citing? It checks with how I remember the studies, but I'd like to see the sources.

And whether the average woman feels she can't compete is an entirely different issue from whether or not she actually can compete. An awful lot of men would have to exhibit the two symptoms you mention to seriously damage women's life chances, and there's no evidence of that.

And why are we talking about an article from years ago? Not that I mind people working Wolf's articla over again; I thought it was idiotic the first time around.

Love it when a woman tells us what it's like to be a man.

As Jerry Seinfeld said, when he was little, his parents told him not to eat cookies before dinner because he'd ruin his appetite.

Later, as an adult, he realized that it didn't matter, because there was always another appetite coming right behind it.

As a gay man, I must register a protest against the pernicious influence of classical Greek philosophy on campus. Young gay college students have all read Plato's Symposium, and all want ugly, hairy older guys (preferably combat veterans) who talk about True Love, rather than real men . . .

At least I think it was a typo?

Yes, sorry for the several typos benny.

Typing with one hand again ... What has this society done to me?!

You really got to love modern Feminist though. If you're a guy, and women don't like you they say it's always because the guy is a scumbag who sets his standards too high. Apparently, if you're a woman, and guy's don't like you it's because... the guy is a scumbag who set's his standards too high. Real convenient there...

"That's an unfair statement. Aren't all standards of attractiveness arbitrary and subjective, to a certain extent? So people are complaining about suddenly being excluded now that these standards are being tightened even further? As any short Asian man or curvy Black woman would have been happy to tell you a long time ago... welcome to the club."

I fail to see how your reasoning contradicts anything I had to say. Whether the standards are arbitrary and subjective or not, they certainly are narrow. And if I seemed to be complaining that that was unfair, I certainly wasn't saying it is only unfair for white female college students. I'm on the side of the short Asian men and the curvy Black women here, too. Don't confuse me with Naomi.

"What's the crisis here? Someone somewhere will always hold standards higher than what they themselves are actually worth in a free (meat) market."

Wait a minute--are those standards actually higher, or are they just arbitrary, as you said earlier? And although I wouldn't describe it as a "crisis", the problem is not that some people will always hold "high" (arbitrary?) standards, it's that those people always seem to be the ones with funding and cameras, encouraging other people to hold unrealistic standards, too.

Also, when discussions about the influence of the entertainment industry come up, I always see arguments of the "Which came first? the chicken or the egg?" type. Do our societal attitudes cause the entertainment industry to create certain norms, or does the entertainment industry perpetuate stereotypes? Well, of course it's both; the entertainment idustry and society are like distorted mirrors of each other. We can quibble about *how* distorted they are, but there's no singular causation going on here.

Look, unless someone can point to a problem here this is all just theoretical. If you want to prove your case, the first step is proving there are large numbers of single men and women who would be involved if they'd just lower their standards. That wouldn't prove that this is the cause of the problem, but it's hard to declare that this is a real issue if this isn't the case. So far, this argument is just theoretical and wreaks of the the "why didn't so and so like me?" issues we all have.I'm just saying that this sounds a lot more like the laments of very insecure people rather than the serious social analysis. People are scumbags, and they'll judge you based on criteria that decent people would never consider.

Besides, why are men being singled out as shallow here? I know women who wouldn't date me because I'm short (only 5'6). I've known plenty of women who were clearly more attracted to their mates salary than their mates themselves. Quit acting like only men think their entitled to some kind of ideal. There's plenty enough of those sticks in your own woodpile. I doubt this has much to do with porn at all, and everything to do with the sense of entitlement we all seem to be born with these days.

The "going out to have a few bears" typo for some reason brought back the punch line of the absolute worst of those horribly contorted pun-jokes (like "out of the flying plan and into the friar"): "Bear fur is the one share to waive when you're heaving, Norseman Thun." (To the tune of "______is the one beer to have when you're having more than one." Ha! I've remembered the commercial but not the product!)

Hilarious and commonsensical thread.

So far, this argument is just theoretical

Well yes. The only useful and interesting way to address this is for people to talk about their own sexual experiences and desires. My opinion, a blogger who isn't ready to do this really shouldn't be posting about porn -- or people's sex lives in general -- at all.

amba, in case it's driving you crazy, it was Schaefer beer -- which I don't believe even exists anymore. Schaefer even vaguely rhymes with "bear fur", so well done.

"That college men have lost interest in having sex with real women because they could watch porn instead strikes me as wildly implausible. No doubt things have changed on campus since I graduated (more WIFI networks, etc.) but I'd be shocked if things had changed that much."

Its not that men don’t want to have sex with real women. Its that sex with real women now has to compete with the images one sees in pornography.

Instead of ones urges being sublimated to a world channeled toward dating and marriage; young men are acclimated to instant gratification via (continuously more graphic and exploitative) pornography and masturbation.

This competes with the real emotional and social difficulties of approaching, winning and courting young women in a competitive environment. Many men learn to avoid this environment of potential rejection and satieties there needs with pornography.

Its not that they completely abandon their desire for a mate, its that increasingly at the margins a strain develops over the pursuit and perceived need for a mate.

Combine this with the fact that the average sex life can never compete with both the ease, youth a nubile ness, numbers (threesomes and orgies) and acrobatics presented in images of porn.

It strikes me as common sense that the images we consume effect how we see the world. The real world of women will never live up to the world of porn for anything but a handful of rock stars.

Its death by a thousand cuts in relations between men & women, this particular wound is deeper than we care to admit.

Widespread porn breaks women's monopoly over (straight) men's sexual consumerism. The worry is that without this monopoly, women won't be able to earn any "social currency".

The inevitable result of monopoly power is either higher prices, or the consumer leaving the market. That holds true of women's sexual monopoly over straight guys' interest as well. Loss of sexual monopoly power - if such be the case - will result either in lowering of "sex prices" (dating, etc.), or in women leaving the market.

All of this is *assuming* the phenomenon actually exists as reported, for which no evidence has been adduced.

FWIW, I've seen news reports about women wanting to have their anuses *lightened* (you can do this, apparently) b/c their boyfriends had compared said orifices unfavorably to those in porn flicks.

Now, I would think that if your boyfriend is saying your asshole needs to look more like Jenna Jameson's or whoever's, the correct response is to kick your boyfriend to the curb ...

So what Naomi Wolf's article reminds us is that some women are neurotically insecure, and that it's a real problem. Too bad she mistakes the symptom for the cause.

The elephant in the room isn't porn, it's internet dating. When one's potential mates were limited by one's neighbors, classmates, co-workers, the folks at the union hall dance, whatever, picky singles might have had more realistic standards. Today, sites like Match (where my girlfriend and I met a couple of years ago), Craig's List, etc., dramatically expand the field.

BTW, Naomi should check out the W4M section of her local Craig's List sometime. Plenty of women with high standards -- and judging by the few who post pics, a more-than-healthy sense of self-confidence.

You know what bothers me about porn: The sheer volume of it available.

Where do they find all those girls willing to go on camera and do these things? I always thought it was difficult to get a woman to drop her drawers.

Slightly off-topic, but Naomi might want to take a look at the regulatory environment men have been placed in if she wants to know why women are less attractive than they used to be (not to mention the new prevelance of fat rolls and low-slung jeans which only accentuate them.)

Regulatory environment? Whaaaaa?

Yes ... the regulatory environment imposed upon men is extremely restrictive and tilts the relationship scale away from long-term relationships. Women claim they desire equality, but that isn't borne out, usually, at the end of the relationship.

At the end of the relationship ... it all comes down to one thing: HALF

And continuing on for years afterword. They used to call it "alimony." Now they call it "maintenance."

Girls ... if you want HALF of everything I have and ongoing maintenance payments for the rest of your life, you better be bringing something unique to the table.

Don't come to the table with a fat roll, a bad haircut or qualms about sex.

Because there is an apparently unending number of women out there at the click of a mouse who require only the smallest amount of money to satisfy.

"Also, when discussions about the influence of the entertainment industry come up, I always see arguments of the "Which came first? the chicken or the egg?" type. Do our societal attitudes cause the entertainment industry to create certain norms, or does the entertainment industry perpetuate stereotypes? Well, of course it's both; the entertainment idustry and society are like distorted mirrors of each other. We can quibble about *how* distorted they are, but there's no singular causation going on here."

More like refractors then distorted mirrors. I believe the entertainment industry is responsible for most stereotypes, but drew their inspiration from some unique feature in society. The caricaturized version seen onscreen is emulated by neurotic women (and men, increasingly). As this distillation of physical ideal is perpetuated and becomes prosaic, from this is extracted a new, exaggerated ideal. Rinse and repeat.
Also, I love how Wolf's response to changing sexual circumstances is not to evolve, but to lament the loss of our innocence. If she puts that much stock in sating her desire to be idolized, then it's not really too much to ask that she toil for it. Last time I checked, an athlete who rests on his laurels, and subsuquently doesn't make the cut, doesn't get any sympathy, and doesn't get the bar lowered to meet his effort. And guess what? He does go out there and compete with others whose talent is unearned and, yes, occasionally pharmaceutically augmented. Wolf's bleating reminds me of the USA's ignominious defeat in the World Championships, where rather than adjust to zone defense, they chose to piss and moan.

I just went back to the US for a 10 day stay after a few years out of the country.

American women are FAT!

They are not pretty.

Some care for themselves, but I have never seen such sloppiness as compared to the women in Europe.

Maybe if American women started caring for themselves they may be more successful at getting a man interested.

Let it also be said that if there *were* a ubiquitous factor that was systematically killing the libido of college guys and ruining the sex lives of college girls, it would have to be that omnipresent feature of college life, the Date Rape 101 seminar. The primary objective of said seminars is to teach strapping young men that cute college gals are walking prison sentences, and that hanky-panky must be preceded by extremely awkward avowals of consent.

Big problem? Prolly not. Bigger than porn? For sure.

College guys do want to have sex with college girls -- just the ones that look like porn stars. - neil

Whaaaa? I wanna see the porn you're seeing. In what little (hardcore) porn I've seen, the porn stars are not at all attractive. The softcore stuff has reasonably attractive women in it (from what little I've seen) ... but still, college is full of young, nubile women who look 100x hotter than anyone you'll see in any sort of porn.

The point about rejection someone made though is right on -- dating is tough and full of rejection (especially for us guys who still have the burdon of wooing women as if it were still the 19-frickin-50s and the so-called sexual revolution never happened) ... being an Onanist (and I don't mean merely wanking off 'cause you have an urge ... I mean avoiding real relationships through masturbation like Onan avoided his obligation of having kids through his leverate marriage) is a much easier choice -- which choice, at a metaphorical level at least, has deep roots in American letters (read Emerson and Thoureau -- we had to do so as high school students and being high schoolers, we found ever so many references to masturbation: it's amazing!).

Speaking as (former) Nice Guy(TM), I have to ask -- why don't some of these young women who feel ignored by young men simply take matters into their own hands and start pursuing the young men?

I know women who wouldn't date me because I'm short (only 5'6). - soullite

You should have gone to college with me. The short guys (and the tall guys, of course) all got dates. The gals wanted either a guy who was their height (which met that the 5'6" guys could have their pick of 5'4"-5'7" girls) or they wanted a guy who could tower over them.

It was 5'10" guys like me -- too tall to stand straight and look most gals right in the eye, but too short to really tower over a gal compared to the 6'+ guys around -- who got the bad end of the height deal at UC Irvine in the latter half of the 1990s.

Oh yes ... someone did bring up the age difference issue -- I always thought that was unfair too. ;)

Wait a minute--are those standards actually higher, or are they just arbitrary, as you said earlier?

All standards are subjective, and for some they are unreasonably high. My point is that, sure, some people will always be dissatisfied with the pickings they're given, and their numbers increase as society collectively narrows its standards. But so what? That's just the reality, and it's never a cause for concern to people until they unwittingly find themselves on the unhappy side of that divide.

The focus on female insecurity distorts the issue. It's a two-way street. Women may genuinely feel like they can't compete, but they're also complicit in drastically narrowing the field of men they're hoping to compete for. Forget porn or the entertainment industry. Why doesn't someone do something about romance novels?

Oh yeah, and Schaefer is still around. I just bought a six-pack last week here in Brooklyn.

So, let's see. To summarize the responses from the peanut gallery, the problem with American women today is...

1. "deep down women love to be humiliated"
2. they really ought to act like porn stars anyway
3. their standards for men are too high
4. "criticism, whining, lack of ambition"
5. they just like to "complain about boys"
6. They go to Harvard, where all the men are gay
7. Feminists think guys are scumbags no matter what they do
8. "women are neurotically insecure"
9. They are "FAT!" and "not pretty"
10. That darned "Date Rape 101 seminar" killed our mojo

Come to think of it, maybe Naomi Wolf has a point.

I'd like to make a comment.

Frankly, Naomi Wolf is a bitch. I went to an Ivy League college in the late '90s. Having met many people sine graduation who went to large public colleges from California to Texas to Ohio to New York, I can say without a shred of exploitable doubt that the problem - if there is one - is the Ivy League intellectual/emotional culture. Those schools are hotbeds of fucking like those of us at least at my school would not have believed. But the Ivy League or more specifically those who fit the almost neurotically intellectual requirements of the "Ivy League" personality are generally shy and anti-social and are therfore deferential to the chivalrous notions of romance that all inexperienced young men are - in this day and age - frankly hamstrung by.

Let me illustrate it thusly: I read a wise comment a few years ago about feminism, to wit "the problem with feminism is it tends to influence the young men who are already sensitive to women and therefore amenable to its arguments, and is completely unlikely to influence the men who are not already sensitive to its arguments. So the sensitive men take the brunt of the feminist criticism, and the others are completely unaffected." So feminists succeed in alienating the precisely the men who are weak enough to tolerate their remorseless, vengeful little asses.

This, I think, is true.

So if the Ivy League is your sample, that's what you're going to get - a bunch of men deadened or made cripplingly anxious by the female onslaught, conviction-before-the-fact non-philosophy that is the feminist culture - which any smart, Ivy League, intellectually precocious but morally neurotic young woman would be likely to pursue.

Moreover, the idea that women are "so influenced" by these "representations" is so fucking wrong it's ludicrous. Has no one ever heard a gaggle of women ripping apart one of their friends, or beautiful new girl who walks into "their territory"? Please.

The problem is not porn. The problem is women are strident little ideologues in uncomfortable numbers. This article is just another example of feminism's emotional terrorism. I'll say it again: Naomi Wolf is a fucking bitch. Why do we have to continue to be assailed by these moronic resentful personalities? I don't get it.

I just read all of these comments and was amazed, in a long thread, never to have encountered either that (1) the male/female ratio has fallen in college over the past several years, and (2) it is pretty sad to have reduced sex to an economic commodity.

I suppose that no feminist would want to admit that the falling male population on campus, which is undoubtedly a result of feminist educational reform, has created marginal difficulties for college women looking for mates. Such a difference could easily explain the anecdotal evidence which blames pornography. As many commenters have pointed out, porn is not a new development, but falling male population is.

That being said, the glee with which some of the commenters here have shown at the troubles of these young women really bothers me. I suppose I'm just a hopeless romantic because I look at college relationships as something more than economic transactions of various satisfactions and animal stimuli. Porn, like the wider entertainment culture, fosters false intimacy which is very definitely an unhealthy alternative to the real thing. There are moral and spiritual consequences to it, and male and female alike suffer from it.

I'd like to add, because I didn't make it explicit, that I think the only problem here is perhaps Wolf's sample - to the extent that actually exists outside her mind, or her coven. I have barely come across anything but men and women largely unaffected by any of these concerns, and happier for it. We don't need Naomi Wolfs, or LaFolette Assholes, to teach this to the rest of us.

What "ed" said.

Not to blame the victims, but any woman who is intimidated by porn, or their looks, or their own insecurity is at the end of day going to have find their own nerve and maybe be a little bit pushy; even if it means not being a "lady."

This knife cuts both ways for the guys who are just salvaging their pride with porn.

Any time you want to get off your own particular pedestal the better off you'll be. While I hold no particular brief against Naomi Wolf her writings over the last few years do give me the impression that she wants to get back on the pedestal; too bad she's losing her nerve.

I just read all of these comments and was amazed, in a long thread, never to have encountered either that (1) the male/female ratio has fallen in college over the past several years....

Thank you ed, I was just about to try and make this point myself. Many colleges now have populations that are >60% women. Some are nearly 70%. Now this is fine by me, but it must have some affect on the availability of desirable male partners.

porn threads places like this amaze me every time--the level of anger skyrockets, level of debate plummets--I suddenly feel, as I rarely do in other discussion, like an utter outsider--

is it just that people who post on the internet are still disproportionately A) male, B) libertarian and C) what, for lack of a better umbrella term, I'll call "losers"?

the level of hostility towards feminism among college-educated white men is astounding; whether this hostility should be seen as indicating feminism's success or its failure is more complicated....

That being said, the glee with which some of the commenters here have shown at the troubles of these young women really bothers me.

Oh, get off your high horse. Some men will always fall far below the standard, regardless of whatever culture or time period they're born in. It's not for the affections of those of us in this bottom percentile that these women feel they can't hope to compete.

So who cares about us short ugly guys soaking in a little schadenfreude? We don't figure into the equation anyway, so for all intents and purposes we don't even really exist.

"the level of hostility towards feminism among college-educated white men is astounding; whether this hostility should be seen as indicating feminism's success or its failure is more complicated...."

Feminism, like most political correctness can be measured best by what is NOT stated. Over the last 40 years pornography has proliferated in our culture from “Girls Gone Wild” to fashion spreads, to the worst smut imaginable on the internet.

Like it or not, the feminism has co-opted whatever authentic female voice that existed to thwart this trend. Likewise, libertine fellow travelers and sexual revolutionaries of the left failed to honor women as more than objects of the male sexual appetite.

A level of misogyny and misandry always exists in any given society. The fact that it has peeked with college educated men under feminism can only be an indictment.

Hey benny, sorry for the high horse. Call it a professional liability. For my part, as a longtime observer of feminists, a little schadenfreude may be justified. I just think that it's possible to think that feminists are dead wrong about a lot of things and still have some sympathy for college kids (female or male) trying to negotiate what has always been a difficult time of life, and knowing that our society has made it harder rather than easier for them. Pornography and its false intimacy, as I said, generally makes things harder (no pun intended).

It may makes sense for social scientists to see intimate relationships as expressions of larger power struggles between the sexes, but it doesn't help individuals to evaluate their lives in this way. In fact, I think that reducing sex to an economic matter puts the whole argument on the feminists' ground, and I don't like doing it.


I too am struck by the misogyny and anti-feminist rantings of some of the commenters. Not a very edifying sight.

My view of Wolf is that a) she is someone who is more than a bit intellectually lazy; b) likes the victim role for both herself and her gender; and c) at middle age, like many people, doesn't approve of what she percieves to be the mores of the younger generation.

Again, I am deeply skeptical that porn has produced a generation of young men who are such committed onanists that they eschew the company of real live, flesh and blood, flawed as we are all flawed, women. I think there is always some angst among people about their own desirablity, and their romantic/sexual success. I don't think that has changed much for a very long time. And it does seem plausible to me that unfavorable gender ratios at some colleges may produce furstration. But I'm pretty confident that fucking is not about to be rendered obsolete amongst the college set, even in the Ivy League.

"So, let's see. To summarize the responses from the peanut gallery, the problem with American women today is...

1. "deep down women love to be humiliated"
2. they really ought to act like porn stars anyway
3. their standards for men are too high
4. "criticism, whining, lack of ambition"
5. they just like to "complain about boys"
6. They go to Harvard, where all the men are gay
7. Feminists think guys are scumbags no matter what they do
8. "women are neurotically insecure"
9. They are "FAT!" and "not pretty"
10. That darned "Date Rape 101 seminar" killed our mojo

Come to think of it, maybe Naomi Wolf has a point."

Oh, listen to this hackneyed nonsense. While some of these may be pointless exercises in misogyny, I find it interesting that observations, probably many made from first-hand experience (judging by their tone), are dismissed off-hand because they put some of the onus on the women. Then, you sloppily use that as a bulwark to support Wolf's stance, which was based on scant second-hand evidence. If you so enjoy summarily dismissing dissenting viewpoints, I'd love to know why you even read or contribute to a comments section.

I find it interesting that observations, probably many made from first-hand experience (judging by their tone), are dismissed off-hand because they put some of the onus on the women. Then, you sloppily use that as a bulwark to support Wolf's stance, which was based on scant second-hand evidence. If you so enjoy summarily dismissing dissenting viewpoints...blah blah blah

Gosh, "EpicureanQuaker," I find it interesting that you view my comment as an "off-hand (dismissal)" used sloppily as a "bulwark to support Wolf's stance." And here I was, thinking I was just being a smartass! (Though I must admit, the concept of an off-hand, sloppy bulwark does have some interesting pornographic potential.)

I'm also fascinated by this idea that I'm "dismissing arguments" because they "put some of the onus on women." Oddly enough, I didn't highlight any of the arguments, including my own, that put some of the onus on women. I highlighted the pointless comments that insulted women.

I had a serious response to Wolf upthread--the short version is that I think she's being fairly ridiculous. The crisis of confidence she's describing in women is real; her decision to blame porn-watching college men was rather silly.

But then the comment thread fills up with assholes making nasty comments about women. And suddenly Wolf becomes a much more sympathetic figure! It's the magic of blogs, I guess.

I suppose a better man than I would write a serious rebuttal to 10 variations on the argument of girls won't date me; therefore they're all conceited bitches. But, you know, there are only so many hours in the day, and I'd rather spend some quality time with my wife.

Just a week or so ago, a good male friend was musing that he got better orgasms from looking at porn and masturbating than he did with his serious girlfriend---whom he praised to the skies as both hot and totally interested in having lots of sex.

While he was venting and complaining and wondering what was wrong with him, he also asserted a bijillion times that looking at porn and masturbating a lot---even within a serious and mostly sexually functional relationship---was completely normal for guys. I'm a woman, so I couldn't say whether he was correct about that or not, but whatever was going on with him did seem to pose a problem.

So I've dying to talk to the men of my acquaintance about their experience with porn. It's been a little difficult to bring up casually, though, and my few attempts in that direction haven't gone very well, so I was really interested to read about it in the pseudonymous-sphere. This thread hasn't enlightened me much, unfortunately.

Any particular questions, Jackmormon?

He's right, JM. Lots of guys do watch a lot of porn, and even more masturbate a lot. Not me, though. I'm saving myself for a special gal, the sort of person raised with old fashion values, but who has broken away from the narrow, restrictionist institutions that inform them. Someone with country flair and international elan. Someone who can dance, by gum.

But other guys? Yeah, I've heard they do watch porn and masturbate on occassion.

Naomi, and most of the commentators on this thread, miss what I believe is the cause for the current situation. The level of risk when men become sexually involved with women is significantly higher now, or at least is perceived to be higher. There is the risk of a charge of sexual harassment, rape or domestic violence. There is the possibility of a claim for child support. Even if marriage occurs, the final decision on having a child rests with the female, and she always can opt for divorce. Many men have seen their fathers or older brothers saddled with 20 year child support obligations. Use of a condom does not necessarily shield a man from a legal claim or a levy by child support enforcement. For many men it is safer to engage in virtual sex and hope that eventually they will meet a woman they can trust.

Naomi Wolf is unattractive, and instead of acknowledging her unattractiveness and dealing with it, she blames her lack of male suitors on porn. Or sunspots. Or global warming. Face it Naomi, most guys don't like ugly, fat, bitchy women. Deal with it. Exercise, get a makeover and go see a therapist to get past your anger issues. In the meantime, while you're blaming everyone else for your problems, I'm be over here with the hot young college girls....

Raising the Bullshit Flag,

Again -- this is misogynistic crap. Naomi Wolf is quite attractive, an observation that is rather beside the point with respect to her inadequate argument. (Christ, maybe I'm wrong and there is a deficiency in the next generation of men.) What the hell are people like you doing on this site?

As for bdave -- are you really worrying about being accused of rape? Because if you are, maybe there is something fundamentally wrong about your approach to women. And child support? Alimony? You've got to be one of those "men's rights" clowns or a 22 year old with a receding hair line and a preternatural sense of what your middle years are going to look like. Jesus, more misogyny.

Look, I've enjoyed enough porno over the years not to dismiss its occassional charms. I understand something about the difficulties that go with relationships after 19 years of marriage and several serious realtionships before that. I think Wolf has concocted a fairly flimsy tale that coincides with her prejudice of the moment.

But when I read some of these comments on a putatively progressive site, I am taken aback more than a little.

"what, for lack of a better umbrella term, I'll call "losers"?"

Guys who can't get laid -- is that a large liberal voting block? If so, how come no one is pandering to them? Maybe Obama or one of the others can propose legalizing prostitution as some sort of therapy and folding it into a national health care proposal. Or maybe a side effect of increasing unskilled immigration from Mexico will be more potential mates for lonely guys?

Mexican women are used to dating short men, so height isn't as much of a problem; they are used to dating menial laborers, so a lackluster career won't be a turn-off for them; and they are used to dating high school dropouts, so not having a prestigious education won't be a turn off to them either.

The level of hatred towards women on this thread disgusts me, particularly coming from so-called "liberal" men. I knew right wingers were bad but I expected better of fellow liberals. Also, if any of you knew anything about feminism, it's about blaming the patriarchy (which generally places importance on physical attractiveness for women and economic/power status on men) not individual men.

"if any of you knew anything about feminism, it's about blaming the patriarchy (which generally places importance on physical attractiveness for women and economic/power status on men) not individual men."

And "the patriarchy" isn't made up of men?

I will admit that I have a hard time with the fact that there are people who use the term "patriarchy" unironically.

too many steves,
Feminists don't use the term "patriarchy" ironically. You've never read any of the feminist blogs (Pandagon, Feministing, Feministe, etc.)? They use it pretty seriously.

I'm not that smart when it comes to embedding links in comments, but I'll just advise you to go here: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/faq-isnt-the-patriarchy-just-some-conspiracy-theory-that-blames-all-men-even-decent-men-for-womens-woes/. I think this will help you regarding your questions about patriarchy.

Oh, I know there are people who use the term "patriarchy" unironically, I just have a hard time taking them seriously. I understand that this is my problem. I blame some over-serious feminist TAs I had before I wised up and got out my English major.

Women who can't compete lack appeal. Why should men be attracted to ugly women who are mean spirited and self consumed.

Porn is an excuse. We have no evidence that men are choosing porn over these unattractive women. We simply know that they prefer not to deal with these ugly women. I hear an excuse of a loser.

Now let's get real. Why should college men desire to have a relationship with college women? What male wants to be treated like an inferior product because of a culture than now finds it acceptable to ridicule men? College women today have just too many NEEDS to be serviced. It's all about them. Their feelings, their classes, their friends, their careers, their ... What male needs this? Well who really gives a crap that these whiners are unhappy?

And how does the problem surface? Who brings us this terrible plight these young women face? Well the NYT of course. Why the NYTs? Because women have learned one thing from the women's movement and it is to go and cry foul rather than face their problem.

If college women want to found attractive and appealing to men they should start trying to see men as equals. As one who is on a major college I am amazed how often I hear women ridiculing men. Many college women are not worth looking at or talking to for any length of time given their attitudes.

I would suggest these college women look in the mirror and ask a simple question - why in the world would a guy want to waste any energy dealing with them? Why would any man want to hear some one dump on them because of their self-doubt?

Wow, bee, I'm astonished that women just don't see you for the prize you are.


Did someone link this post to inadequatelosers.com, becauee it's sure starting to feel that way.

Right there with you, K-nut.

I was looking at porn 2 or 3 nights a week, and did find that it reduced my desire for sex with my wife. (Not because the women were beautiful and my wife couldn't compete--I was looking at the amateur stuff, with a wide range of types of women.) Having stopped looking at it, much of the mystique has come back--now that I'm not looking at naked women all the time, being with my wife is much more of a turn-on.

So sample size of one, etc., but there is some support for Wolf's theory. It certainly makes sense that the sheer ubiquity of porn would reduce some of the "specialness" of sex.

Oh, and some of the hostility toward women coming from this thread is really scary. Given the attitudes that a lot of these guys have, I'm not suprised they're not getting laid.

Wait...so saying women's standards are too high is an insult? I distinctly pointed out that some of them were nonsense -- but you've taken the defensive, nu-male stance that anything said negative about women's behavioral choices is an insult. The sad irony is that this incessant drive to appear sensitive dooms men to a lifetime of apologetics for missteps of the opposite gender. So go home to your wife, Lafo, and if and when an inescapable rift should rise between you both, you go and be the good husband and take it all upon yourself.

If you could step back and look at this objectively, rather than playing that old 'all opposing views are vitriolic talking points' ditty, you'd realize that Wolf's article was all about not shouldering blame. The larger portion of the blame, rather, was placed on an inanimate object, and the remainder was placed on men...both her tone and content was derisive, yet heaven forbid I or anyone else should respond in kind. Also, after that last post, you can go tell it to Sweeney if you're planning to pull the 'I was being flippant' card again.

EQ,

I was in fact critiquing Wolf's article as unempirical and unlikely. But I also noted that there is some extremely misogynistic crap on this posting that makes me wonder if I wandered over to Ace of Spades HQ.

This is not nu-male posturing. I'm way too old for posturing at this point. I'm just a little blown away at the hostility expressed towards women and feminism at this site.

I am not anti-porn. I think people have a lot of difficult expectations on the romance/sexual front and I hate to say, these don't necessarily disappear over time. I thought the article worth engaging because Wolf has a reputation of sorts as a feminist, although in my view she is now a bit of a tiresome victim/prude/attention seeking narcisist. But I sure don't want to be in the company of those who want to vent at what ungrateful bitches women are because they don't seem tuned in to the peculiar charms of some of our posting brethren.

My comment referred to LaFollete, not Klein. Some folks displayed ignorant ideas, and should be duly ignored; but I find it vapid to dismiss all criticism of women's culpability as Lafo felt the need to do. That does everyone involved a disservice.

Is culpability really the word you are looking for here? It seems to me that many people end up feeling at times, and particularly in their teens and twenties, as misunderstood, underappreciated, passed over for superficial reasons by those who don't understand their merits. I hardly think these feelings belong exclusively to one gender or another, although perhaps men don't express it in quite the same way, venting instead in the manner we've seen tonight. I still think most people prefer the company of real sexual companions to the internet variety on most nights. And on those nights that they don't, I say let them enjoy the pleasures of their own company and don't judge.

I propose an experiment.

How about some sex deprived female comes to visit me, gets naked and we will see if I have sex with her.

We both report the xperiece.

My e-mail is on the sidebar of my url/blog.

In the mean time I'll be surfing the 'net and practicing.

What ever happened to "Make Love Not War"?

You know - like when having sex with anyone who wanted it was a political statement.

It is my considered opinion that women these days are not seriously political.

Well, I'm off to do some research. And waiting for that e-mail.

SomeCallMeTim's shameless flirting with Jackmormon above is evidence that even non-visual representatations of online females can lure males away from real world women.

SCMTim is, of course, a brain in a vat: unknown and unknowable.

Neil, I doubt any questions asked around here would yield helpful answers.

I'd be happy to take a shot at answering your questions, if you'd like to email them. It may take me a while to get to them, though, because I'm embarking on a long voyage tomorrow morning (job interview in England).

Also, after that last post, you can go tell it to Sweeney if you're planning to pull the 'I was being flippant' card again.

I don't have the slightest idea what this means. Sweeney? WTF? So I can defend pornography and get accused of being a sensitive "nu male" in the same thread now? That's actually pretty damned funny. I think your straw sensitive-man isn't quite ready for prime time, EQ.

The problem with this thread, noted by at least half a dozen people here besides me, is that a bunch of guys responded to Wolf's ill-conceived broad generalizations about men being assholes by making their own ill-conceived broad generalizations about women and acting like assholes. If you want to rebut the claim that men prefer pornbots to real women, you might want to dial down the bitterness toward real women a few notches. Just a helpful hint.

I'm just a little blown away at the hostility expressed towards women and feminism at this site.

I'm more than a little blown away, I'm disgusted. That MY would have such a large and loud contingent of misogynists in his comments reflects badly on him. My sense—and this is only a guess—is that Yglesias's youth and interests attract more college-aged men than other blogs. And though nominally "liberals", apparently they're also fratboys with Kid Rock on their ipods.

J, don't feel bad, I also have a hard time taking 95% of the commenters at those feminist blogs seriously.

Take a recent one from the bottom of that Feministing post: "When all women can make upwards of $1000 per day without taking off our clothes and servicing men [...] When women have other labor options that pay just as much as porn per hour/day, we will know that porn actresses are doing it out of true desire rather than the need to survive (eat, get medical treatment, housing, etc)"

I hope I don't need to explain everything that's wrong with that comment. It's sheer nonsense to claim that because one type of work pays highly, anyone who chooses that work must've been coerced into it. Hell, most men don't have any labor options that pay as much per day as porn - does that mean they're all being oppressed?

But the thing is, you'll find people all over those sites who completely agree with this lunacy. It's easy to find threads where one poster spouts some bizarre, baseless theory about (for example) male sexuality, a dozen other posters chime in to pat her on the back, and then one male poster who dares to introduce some facts into the discussion is insulted and chased off. These commenters seem to have never met an actual man, or seen an actual porn, and yet they act as if they're experts on both subjects.

It's like watching an improv sketch where the audience has chosen words like "patriarchy" and "coercion", and the performers are using them to build on each other's stories, making them more and more outlandish each time. They're living in an alternate universe -- perhaps the same ones that many right-wingers seem to live in, because they end up reaching some of the same conclusions.

Well, this was amusing and even somewhat enlightening until the ideological trenches began to be dug, and the reflexive defense mechanisms kicked in.

Yeah, there were SOME sexist or misogynistic comments about women here, as some people reacted emotionally to the topic, but there was also some substantive criticism which was dismissed out of hand. Yeah, some guys have problems with women, but you know, there are woman with problems in regards to guys, no? Are guys NOT allowed to express some frustration or criticism like Wolf does without being labeled “losers” who “can’t get laid”? Is that the definition of a loser? Does that apply to the women Naomi discusses; are those women “losers” because they can’t compete with porn and get laid?

Sounds nasty and vicious, right? Well, it is nasty and vicious and SEXIST to say it about men, so how about toning it down. Good for the gander and all that…

Take one respondents concern regarding Date Rape accusations. It was immediately turned around on him as some sort of indicator that he is a proto-rapist. Yeah, that’s pretty fair. With a climate on college campuses where you need dating contracts and expressed permission to even hug someone, where some of your more militant feminists will randomly put male students names on posters, calling them potential rapists by virtue of having a penis, do you think that concern is THAT out of line? Really? Being condemned based upon your physical anatomy would not make you a little paranoid?

Getting back to the original point; does porn, or even the media in general, supply unrealistic expectations for women to live up to? Probably, but does it completely make real, live women undesirable? I highly doubt it, and Matt’s original point is that Wolf really offers no evidence for it. What she does is express the frustration of some women, and then blames it on men who are shallowly self-absorbed with masturbation rather than paying attention to them. Count me among the under-whelmed here when it comes to the strength of the reasoning. I think what this does is play into some expectations itself, helping some women explain away what is probably a more complex, or uncomfortable, issue.

Complex in that there if there IS even a problem here, it has more feeding into it than just porn, and uncomfortable in that it might, just might, have something to do with female expectations and/or behavior as well. Are women ready to look at themselves as eager as they are to judge the guys?

WG

Don't know what that saying means, Lafo? Go look it up then...I'm not your tutor.

Nice attempt to sidestep your earlier comments, dude. In the same post where you complained that someone called women 'insecure,' you railed about women's 'crisis of confidence.' So I get it -- frank discussion of women's roles in this matter are only apropos if someone of your deeper insight does it? You just understand women so much more, and therefore its a discussion, not an affront, when you do it. Keep it up brother.

Oh, EQ. Your serious and psychologically profound arguments are so devastatingly insightful and full of clever references that I surrender. I will now go weep into my chablis and read some poetry with my nu-male brethren. I humbly apologize for my off-hand dismissal of your rigorous intellectual defense of the hot college babes need to lower their standards thesis.

Oh, EQ. Your serious and psychologically profound arguments are so devastatingly insightful and full of clever references that I surrender. I will now go weep into my chablis and read some poetry with my nu-male brethren. I humbly apologize for my off-hand dismissal of your rigorous intellectual defense of the hot college babes need to lower their standards thesis.

Wow! This thread is going longer and harder than the Marty Peretz Middle East thread upstairs -- which probably is only doing so well 'cause it has a pornesque name involving "tits" and "tats" ...

All puns intended, btw -- even the ones I put in by accident.

;)

You guys are fucking pathetic. No woman deserves your crap.

I'm glad you were contrite enough to do the ole fish-and-loaves flim-flam with your apology, LaFo...twice as nice.

Also, Jordan? Glad you contributed so much to the debate. And so EDGY, especially with the harmonious interplay of inchoate ferocity and vulgarity. Yay you.

To Jordan: Isn't that the point? We guys are pathetic so we might as well tune out? Excuse me if I don't have much use for pathetic passive-aggressive nonsense.


Comments closed June 12, 2007.

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