It's true, as David Leonhardt says, that Lou Dobbs is a liar. On the other hand, why is this news? Is Glenn Beck not a liar? Rush Limbaugh? Sean Hannity? Charles Krauthammer? Why is it suddenly a problem? I don't want to defend Dobbs -- he's scum -- but it seems to me that it's probably not a coincidence that Dobbs has some inclinations toward genuine advocacy for working class interests in there along with the rancid racism, demagoguery, lying, etc. After all, the people who provide the rest of that stuff straight-up don't seem to produce nearly the same volume of disquiet.
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What Else Is New?
30 May 2007 02:34 pm
Comments (90)
Well, it's fine for Dobbs to argue that he gets targeted just because the powerful people can't stand his message. But that's really not much different from what Rush Limbaugh says when he decides to play the victim. Truth is, Dobbs deserves the criticism, and it's not a defense to point out that other people aren't getting the criticism that they happen to deserve. Life sometimes sucks like that.
So calling Dobbs a liar is not OK but calling him scum is fine? Dobbs is a big fat blowhard liar who has done nothing to further the interest of the middle class he claims to love. Calling him out as one should not be an issue. About the others - they are more appropriately termed jokers. Anyway, one a**hole at a time.
Dobbs stands up for the working class of this country and his arguments vis-a-vis immigration hinge on security and economics, not whether someone of Hispanic descent should be allowed to enter the country. It's unfair to hurl the ugly term "scumb" around like this at Dobbs. How could anyone call him a racist when he's married to a Mexican-American and after how he stood up for Ramos and Compean, 2 Hispanic border partrol agents unjustly sent to prision for shooting a drug smuggler? Instead he takes the sane position: a large pool of cheap, foreign labor pushes down wages for US Citizens (who wants wage competition with a guy who thinks the min wage is a great salary?) and, in a post-9/11 world, how much sense does it make to have 12-20 million unidentified people walking around the country?
I'm a liberal but I think the right is dead-on when it comes to illegal immigration, minus the demographic agruments (they should learn English, where have all the whites gone, etc). I wish people would stop making it about race cause that is not why people, for the most part, oppose illegal immigration. Economic prospierty and security of legal citizens should come first.
Because oodles of "liberals" and "moderates", who go along with Dobbs' plausible-deniability-this-has-nothing-to-do-with-race stance on immigration love Dobbs. It becomes harder for self-avowed "reality-based" people to keep up this support, when their plausibly denied racist hero is show to be lying.
I remember Dobbs saying on The Daily Show that people shouldn't celebrate St. Patrick's Day because no foreign tradition should ever be celebrated in America.
If the NY Times article is right then Dobbs, I agree, should retract. But this doesn't make him a racist or scum.
Anyway, it's probably true that Dobbs isn't a racist. He's a nativist. Lots of other anti-immigration (cough, sorry, anti-illegal immigration) folks are racists though.
And let's not forget serial fabricator and maker upper of shit John Stoessel. He isn't required to correct his -- well, not errors actually, he says stuff that isn't true on purpose. I guess lies is the correct term for it.
But he is unequivocally "conservative," meaning a liar. Therefore it's okay.
dobbs is against St. Patrick's Day?
well, then he's not all bad.
How could anyone call him a racist when he's--
--blithely citing bullshit from white supremacists as fact?
I wouldn't say he's a racist. He's a nativist xenophobe who's an enabler of racists. And that makes him more dangerous than the overt bigots.
no foreign tradition should ever be celebrated in America.
In which case, I'm sure he'll be broadcasting in one of these languages soon enough. And I'm sure he only stands up for the working classes when they need to vacuum under his feet.
I don't really see why Matt felt the need to call Dobbs "scum," but I think the rest of this is dead on. Economic populism and racism directed against non-Arabs are the two unpardonable sins among the Washington and New York elite, and Dobbs presents full-throated economic populism with subtle (and occasionally not-so-subtle) shades of racial fearmongering. I'm no fan of his style or his overall agenda. But he's hardly the biggest liar on the conservative pundit phone tree, and he's far less dishonest than most of them.
That he seems to genuinely care about improving the lot of the lower middle class in America seems to be what really bothers most of his critics on the Right.
Lou Dobbs is almost single-handedly driving a wedge between the Republican Party base and the pseudo-populist warmongering corporate shills who actually run the Party. That's a valuable public service right there.
Thag sort of got there first, but if Dobbs is against St. Patrick's day where do I send him the check?
On the other hand, it's probably not true that the amazingly embarrassing American St. Patrick's day can fairly be described as a foreign tradition.
Is there any other ethnic group that has a "tradition" that should so thoroughly embarrass it? Please advise -- I suppose if one takes Lord Acton's second most famous dictum to heart Cinco de Mayo should engender hesitation, but the celebration per se always struck me as rather wholesome and appealing.
...his arguments vis-a-vis immigration hinge on security and economics, not whether someone of Hispanic descent should be allowed to enter the country.
Many are the times he's urged INS to start rounding up the Irish who have overstayed their tourist visas and taken good construction and bartending jobs away from red-blooded Americans.
Ohwaitaminnit...
But Dave, the Irish do not make up a large portion of the 12-20 million illegals --- Mexican's do. Simple reason is geography. If we actually secure the border we can at least stop the bleeding.
Dobbs deserves to be singled out because moreso than any other reactionary voice in the conservative talk media, he has made the illegal immigration bugaboo his main hobbyhorse. He has routinely spread false information about "illegal immigrants" regarding crime rates & propensity towards diseases, dehumanizing these people, and he will get active members of white supremacist & white nationalist organizations posing as impartial scholars to do it on his show for him. In one episode where he surmised that all the immigrants flooding in from mexico were part of a secret coup to reclaim the American Southwest & rename it Aztlan, he even had a nifty graphic displaying the "browning out" of the southwest portion of our country that was provided to him by the council of conservative citizens, the modern day heirs to the white citizen's councils of the 60's.
Not to stop the pontificating of white male democrats on whether or not Dobbs is a racist, but perhaps we could, you know, actually get a person of Mexican or Mexican American descent to speak on the subject? They aren't hard to find on the internets, and surprisingly, they often take a different tune.
And frankly, the apologia for Dobbs here just doesen't cut it. You can't separate the argument from it's planks, and say "I think Dobbs is right on about immigration, except for that whole 'mexican military invasion', 'english will be illegal 30 years!', 'where did all the white people go?' 'mexicans cause crime, 'mexicans infect whites with medieval diseases', 'mexicans flood our country with drugs!'...stuff. Other than that he's right on the money!" If you want to raise your wages by excluding mexicans from the labor pool, just say so, and don't embarass yourself by associating with such reactionary arguments.
To really see how odious Dobbs is, I can't recommend Daphne Eviatar's article in The Nation 'Nightly Nativism' more highly.
I don't want to defend Dobbs -- he's scum
He's scum?
I wonder what that makes of my heroes Laura Flanders and Rachel Maddow who seem able to disagree with Dobbs but don't seem to believe he is scum and in many ways seem to think relatively highly of him (compared at least to others in the business.)
I think I liked the old Matt better.
hey pseudonymous
So Dobbs is more dangerous than overt bigots like the Ku Klux Klan, huh?
You musta forgot to ask for decaf in your latte this aft!
ah, 'binwit': even the white supremacists have realised that the whole hood and cape thing doesn't help expand their audiences.
DRR, I've been watching Dobbs for 4 years and I really don't see where you pull this from (maybe your ass?): 'mexican military invasion', 'english will be illegal 30 years!', 'where did all the white people go?' 'mexicans cause crime, 'mexicans infect whites with medieval diseases', 'mexicans flood our country with drugs!'
So you're saying Mexicans don't cause crime? Or, if they do, reporting on this fact is racist? Look, the tone of his show does not say "where did all the white people go". Period. He presents facts. There may have been a few occasions where the facts were incorrect and, if that's the case, he should own up to it and retract. Not doing so will hurt his credibility. But mostly his reporting is accurate and many times tough to dispute unless you resort to the 'Dobbs is a racist' tact. You can be against illegal immigrants and not be a nativist or a racist. If you tell me you are against all immigration then it's a different story -- Dobbs clearly doesn't fall into the latter classification.
I mentioned in an earlier post that I didn't support the right's arguments about 'where'd all the whites go, etc' but I don't attribute these viewpoints to Dobbs, just other folks on the right (and Dobb's is not on the right of many economic and social issues). If idiot white-power nazis want to cease upon this to further their disgusting cause should we then paint Lou with the same brush? Hardly. Dobbs has publicly abdicted himself from these hate groups.
Of course, if MattY wanted to do some real analysis he might look into who's piling on Dobbs and what they're after.
Let's look at what they want and the bottom line.
They want him off the air. Who would profit from that?
Certainly, crooked politicians would love it. As would racial power groups like La Raza. As would those crooked banks, growers, and manufacturers who profit from illegal activity. And, of course, the MexicanGovernment would love it too.
BTW: the SPLC has an indirect link to the MexicanGovernment, yet that fact oddly seems missing from the NYT and CBS reports on Dobbs which hinge on that organization's opinion.
Clearly, Dobbs has struck a nerve with our corrupt elite (with MattY a tiny little cog in the works), and they're fighting back.
There's a damn good reason to pile on Dobbs. He's a liar and a racist, and he doesn't deserve his prominent place in the media landscape.
Yes, there are other liars out there. It doesn't mean Dobbs should get a pass. It doesn't mean the other liars should get a pass either, but sometimes ya gotta evict one racist liar before you evict the other racist liars...
Ah, Wack O's feed reader obviously sounded the alarm: more bullshit! more WikiCaps to SEO the fifteen thousand blogwhore comments he leaves a day! more cowbell!
Never mind that Dobbs gets his 'action items' straight from the Center for Immigration Studies.
Are you pro- or anti-St Patrick's Day parades, Wack O'?
But mostly his reporting is accurate and many times tough to dispute unless you resort to the 'Dobbs is a racist' tact.
Funny how that Nation story quotes CNN staff saying that his correspondents are basically told to seek out local stories that can be bent to fit the agenda. And that those correspondents are basically Dobbs's pet journalists, and never called upon by the rest of CNN.
Presumably Wack O' will tell us that's just some big ol' media conspiracy, rather than plain embarrassment at Lou's Happy Hour Of Hatin'.
I'll put money on Dobbs ignoring the approval to double or triple visa application fees for legal immigrants, penalising those who play by the rules. It's as if his claimed distinction between legal and illegal immigrants is ever so much bullshit. Whodathunkit?
dave illustrate the "depth" of MattY-style "thinking" on this issue. First, the INS ceased to exist over four years ago. Second, there are many fewer Irish illegal aliens than Mexican illegal aliens in the U.S. Third, one of the lobbying organizations that's worked to "legalize the Irish" is actually partly funded by the IrishGovernment, yet you don't read about that in the MSM (or from little cogs like MattY).
As for the infamous Aztlan graphic, Dobbs shouldn't have used that source. He should have used this instead: tinyurl.com/yubcvd
I urge everyone to compare the comments about reconquista/Aztlan from the SPLC with the photos at the previous link and with the many other comments about this issue from people such as Jose Angel Gutierrez (tinyurl.com/37fgn2, tinyurl.com/3x5pv2, tinyurl.com/3x3vp4, etc.) Clearly, there are such sentiments out there, yet the SPLC and their little helpers keep trying to downplay it.
The NYT article also casts doubt on the NorthAmericanUnion; they might want to see this: tinyurl.com/22o3w3
The bottom line is that MattY is an ignorant hack. Thankfully, at least the first is not necessarily a permanent condition, so I'd suggest he learns what he's talking about before opining on these issues.
pseudonymous, I guess we are resorting to ad hominem attacks now? I won't go there but I will read the Nation article you've referenced.
As for seeking out local stories, again, is that not fair play? Local problems in this regard could easily become nation-wide problems if not examined and addressed. Hazelton PA's problems of today could easily become the entire state of PA's problems of tomorrow if somebody doesn't put their finger in the dyke.
So I really don't get your point but I will keep an open mind by reading the article --- and will keep a civil tone by not calling you a whacko like you've done to me.
My recollection from the San Francisco area, Dave and Will, is that while illegal Irish immigrants (whom I have generally found rather unpleasant people, along with the recent legal Irish immigrants, for that matter) obviously make up a very small percentage of the estimated eleven million, they tend to be concentrated in jobs like computer programming rather than bartending, and an analysis of their impact on wages might be of interest. Of course, my observations are several years old and predate the wholesale move of some programming and related functions offshore.
Hey Will,
From the Nation article:
Earlier this year, Lou Dobbs Tonight covered a local protest in California against Home Depot's efforts to hire Spanish-speaking workers. Dobbs aired a clip of California Coalition for Immigration Reform spokeswoman Barbara Coe--identified merely as a protester--saying Home Depot had "betray[ed] the American people." Dobbs didn't mention that Coe's coalition is considered a hate group, or that she is a CCC member who's referred to Mexicans as "savages" and, in a speech last year, called undocumented workers "illegal barbarians who are cutting off heads and appendages of blind, white, disabled gringos."
Is that an example of Dobbs "abdicating himself" from right wing hate groups, whatever you mean by that?
Dobbs has publicly abdicted himself from these hate groups.
I don't know what you meant by "abdicted" but the answer is "no, he hasn't." He used a map provided by the Council of Conservative Citizens, a white supremacist group, during his "report" on Vicente Fox's visit to the US last year. Hardly "abdicting."
I find the nonchalance on the substance of the matter here is odd: what Dobbs is doing is today's version of the "Jews poisoned the well" calumny of the Middle Ages. He's saying "not only are Mexicans taking away your jobs, they're making us lepers, as well."
I find people like Hanson and Krauthammer irritating; I regard Dobbs as loathsome. There's a difference.
I'm about as far to the left as you can get. I'm so far to the left that I'm barely a Democrat (and if Hillary wins the nomination, I'm no longer a Democrat).
But I have a soft spot in my heart for Dobbs. He's not the best journalist, and he is in a marriage of convenience (and neccecity) with some unsavory types who have similar policy positions. That's unfortunate. However, it doesn't change the fact that in a country where the "left" is led by the likes of Bruce Reed and Bill Clinton, who have routinely sold the working class (and particularly unions) down the river in favor of a platform of liberal social policies and Corporate Economics, his genuine concern for the worsening of life for the least among us is heartwarming and welcome.
And let's not forget that before illegal immigration, his hobby-horse was "The Outsourcing of America," and he was right about almost everything on that issue. Well-paying blue-collar and mid-management jobs sent overseas, fast-food service jobs created at home.
I wish he would change the tone of his coverage a bit. But he is DEAD ON that we need to eliminate the Black Market in labor. How can an average American or legal-immigrant worker (who requires SS and Medicare matching payments, unemployment insurance contributions, OSHA-certified working conditions, and group benefits, among other things) compete with illegal workers who will not only work for lower wages, but also requires none of the attendant expenses of a legal worker?
Look, I would like to see a virtually open-border policy with Mexico, where almost any non-felonious Mexican citizen can live and work legally in America with full rights and benefits. But I also want to see an America where every employee is an "on-the-books" employee, and no one is living and working in the shadows. Ultimately, this requires a secure border.
The erosion of labor laws is a major theme of the dangerous rightward lurch America has been in for the past 40 years. Black Market laborers are the ultimate disintegration of all labor laws. It must be stopped.
Sorry, I'm at work: I meant abdicated, not abdicted.
This is going in circles. You think he's a racist, I don't. You guys pick from a few random mishaps (a suspect source, for example) but this proves nothing. Mostly his facts are dead on and, yes, there have been occasions where he's used a crappy source or cited a bad stat. We all screw up and Lou or any other news broadcast is no exception.
Look at the whole picture then get back to us.
There are no countries other than those dominated by ethnic Europeans who are accepting any substantial number of immigrants of a different race than themselves. So to call Europeans (whites) racist is to say that they are the same as every other race.
Which in fact is true; every race and ethnic group prefers its own. It is just that Europeans are less racist than Asians and Africans and Middle Easterners. So they get into more trouble.
How do you suppose South Africa would respond to an influx of Chinese which would project to blacks becoming a minority in 30 years?
Or how would China respond to an influx of Africans which would project to Asians becoming a minority in China in 30 years?
Would their response be racist or would it be to protect their cultural dominance and identity?
Both.
Would you support their response or be against it?
Will the loss of nations' unique culture be a loss of great works of art as Solzhenitsyn has suggested? Discuss.
Both
Wow. Will is bad, but “Robert Hume” just set the bar much lower.
How many examples of “bad sources” do you need, Will? Losing the argument is not the same thing as “going in circles.” The big picture is that Dobbs consistently cites selective, misleading, and inaccurate information. Not once in a while. All the time.
And “abdicated,” while in fact a word, does not make sense in the context you use it. Getting closer though.
Mike: do some more thinking about "Dobbs didn't mention that Coe's coalition is considered a hate group". Is there some sort of scientific definition of that term? No, that's the SPLC's opinion. Is there opinion trustworthy? Take a look at the link I posted above about the indirect link they have, take a look at Harper's take (tinyurl.com/avewm) or the expose from (IIRC) the Montgomery Advertiser.
Roberto Rivera brings up the map I discussed above. You can see another version of the same map in photos here: tinyurl.com/yubcvd
I highly doubt that those holding that version of the map are CCC members, check it out and let me know.
illegal Irish immigrants (whom I have generally found rather unpleasant people, along with the recent legal Irish immigrants, for that matter)
have Kieran and I been that mean to you in CT's comments sections ??? ;)
Re "I wish people would stop making it about race cause that is not why people, for the most part, oppose illegal immigration"
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Yes, but if you're a deeply dishonest Democratic leadership whoring for the Hispanic Lobby's votes in 2008 , you -- and your sycophants -- have to make up lies about people who challenge your casual betrayals. Look at what happened to Cindy Sheehan.
Howard Dean's biggest mistake was in not forming a third party. The Democratic leadership is just to dishonest and corrupt to represent the common citizens of this country. It exists more to sabotage and divert efforts at reform than to act for reform. Just as the New York Times exists more to keep a real newspaper like the Guardian from arising in this country.
Yes, a third party would have to struggle for years and yes,it would give the Republicans an advantage at first. But its better to build something real than to work yourself into the ground trying to elect con artists.
Dobbs scapegoats a group of people over a fabricated problem. Are Latin American immigrants endangering Americans with leprosy? Of course not. Has Dobbs repeatedly misreported leprosy data to sow fear and resentment of immigrants? He has.
We can be generous and simply say that Dobbs lacks integrity. Or we can just go ahead and call him scum.
Mr. Hume:
Herein lie the rub of America. The French are a thing. They are defined by their Frenchness. The Chinese are a thing. They are defined by their Chineseness. The Turks are a thing. They are defined by their Turkishness. France is defined more or less as the place where the French live, just as China is the place where the Chinese live, and Turkey is the place where the Turks live.
America (as well as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and to a lesser extent, South Africa) is very different. America is a thing. It is a set of ideas, ideals, and principals. Americans, on the other hand, are more or less defined as the people who live in America. Exactly the opposite relationship between a people and their nation as we see in France, China, and Turkey.
This (obviously) is because France, Turkey, and China are organic things that evolved in place, over a long period of time, and not according to a well-thought-out plan. France, China and Turkey all just happened.
America (and Canada, etc.) are artificial things, created in the heads of a generation of men. They didn't just happen, over a long period of time, in that same place. They were conceived (more or less) all at once and imported from afar.
As such, French, Chinese, and Turkish concern over immigration of un-French, un-Chinese, and un-Turkish peoples is a legitimate concern over maintaining who and what they are.
American racist xenophobia is not acceptable or understandable in the same way. Anyone, regardless of the color of their skin or culture of origin, can become 100% American by accepting the ideas, ideals, and priciples of America into their heart. A Mexican can become an American in a way that a Mexican cannot become a Frenchman.
Tone it down, Robert.
'mexicans infect whites with medieval diseases'
Yeah, DRR pulled that one out of his ass. Either that or IT'S THE TOPIC OF THIS POST AND THE LEONHARDT COLUMN TO WHICH IT LINKED. Definitely, one of those two things is true.
TLBTLB
A Free Republic photo of some dudes holding a homemade sign does not a conspiracy to conquer the Southwestern United States make. There is no actual fucking conspiracy to conquer the Southwestern United States. The Michigan militia stands more of a chance of defeating the United States government than some random dudes holding a sign. It is good for rallying up the lizard brains at Free Republic, however, no doubt.
Your “indirect link” hypothesis is just nuts Almost as nuts as thinking “Azlan” or whatever is real. It seems like some group (not the SLPC according to that link) has a lawyer who’s also representing some illegal migrants while also working on a website (!) with the Mexican government. Sounds like scary shit. I’ll write my Congressman as soon as I get done with all these letters warning people about how Mexicans are coming to harvest my organs.
The Harper’s article is more legit, and basically says that SLPC over-hypes the threat of the Klan. That point is conceded, but fundraising tactics, which are often a bit slimy and tilted towards the hysterical, are not the issue.
What else you got?
The New York Times can spend several pages attacking Lou Dobbs over a minor "gotcha" re the number of leprosy cases in the USA.
But notice how the New York Times refuses to address the far bigger lies told by both Republicans and Democrats.
Come to think of it, how does a newspaper with such a long history of misleading the people of this country get the moral authority to criticize ANYONE?
Back in 2001, I -- and I'm sure many other readers --wrote to the New York Times in vain re Bush's $2 Trillion tax cuts. I pointed out that he wasn't really giving a benefit to the middle class -- that while he gave them a $600 tax cut, he was paying for it by stealing $160,000 from their Social Security/Medicare Trust Funds accounts. That the bulk of the tax cuts was going to the superrich and that the superrich were not using the money to spur the US economy --to create jobs in America -- but were instead investing the money overseas --creating jobs in CHina.
The Times, of course, suppressed any serious criticism of the tax cuts. The extent to which the wealthy family who owns the Times benefitted from the Bush Tax Cuts is left as an exercise for the reader.
Don, the Times didn't "supress" your criticism of the tax cuts by not publishing your letter. The Times gets zillions of letters and publishes hardly any of them. Also, if the Times was for Bush's tax cuts, they had a funny way of showing it -- editorializing against the tax cuts, and all.
Also, if you find yourself saying, "I'm a liberal, but I agree with Lou Dobbs on immigration," then maybe you're not quite the liberal you think you are.
Re "We can be generous and simply say that Dobbs lacks integrity. Or we can just go ahead and call him scum."
-------
Go ahead. Like most pundits, I'm sure he stretchs the truth -- and even lies on occasion -- when caught up in his rhetoric.
But what do you call people who solicit --and get-- the vote of almost 90% of the Afro-American community -- and who then show time after time that they do not give a hairy rodent's posterior about the deep poverty, misery, and hopeless lack of opportunity in our urban ghettos? And in many of our rural white communities, for that matter.
If we're looking at integrity, how about we pull out some of those Clinton speeches re the benefits that NAFTA would bring us. For some reason, I haven't seen a lot of Mexican billionaires opening up factories in my area and hiring a lot of Americans. I have seen some rich gringos closing factories and throwing US citizens out on the streets so they could relocate their investments to Mexico.
Too Many Steves:
If you find yourself saying "I'm a liberal, but I think it's fine for 12-20 million people in the world's richest nation to be working for exploitative wages, often in unsafe working conditions, without any legal recourse when they are mistreated or a significant social safety net, for the benefit of large corporations and the very wealthy," then maybe YOU'RE not really liberal at all, regardless of your position on abortion, gay rights, or gun control, or how much you hate Dubya.
Just a thought.
No, Jello, I think they should all be legalized and brought into the system. But that's not what Lou Dobbs thinks -- he thinks they should be deported, which is certainly worse than what you describe.
And I never claimed to be a liberal, although I do hate Dubya.
Check out the photos in question here: tinyurl.com/yubcvd
Mike: they led the parade, and the fact that it's at FreeRepublic should not have any bearing on the matter other than pointing out just how corrupt the MSM and their downstreams are: you won't see pictures like that on the evening news.
And, as the other links provided above point out, such sentiments are not restricted to just a small subset of radicals.
In fact, LosAngeles' current mayor is a former leader of a racial separatist group. The LAT consistently failed to note that or ask him about it; he was only forced to somewhat renounce them because someone followed him to campaign appearances with a sign.
Bear in mind that one doesn't renounce groups like, say, the Boy Scouts.
Also bear in mind that several other politicians are former members of that group, including U.S. Rep. RaulGrijalva, who's proud of his involvement.
As for an "actual fucking conspiracy" I don't think there are meetings. However, there are plenty of people who have revealed through thoughts and actions that they think it wouldn't be such a bad idea. Some, such as the person mentioned above (JAG) have explicitly stated it.
I'm not familiar with the "Michigan militia", but I assume they're a fringe group. Yet, those who hold reconquista views or lighter versions of it are presented as mainstream by the MSM.
As for the indirect link, he's doing more than just working on a website; I should be more precise. It's a legal project that has a website.
But, oddly enough, he recently changed it, so you'll have to go to the archives:
web.archive.org/web/20060426001655/http://vocesunidas.org/
"A collaborative project of the Dirección General de Protección y Asuntos Consulares of the Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores of the Government of Mexico and the Center for Human Rights and Constitutional Law."
The SPLC is a member of a coalition headed by the person who heads the latter group.
One would think they would be a bit more careful about being involved in such organizations. Of course, they realize that their friends in the MSM will cover for them by never mentioning such questionable involvements.
On a personal note, I don't have all day, and unlike Matt I'm not getting paid to post here. So, I would appreciate a little less of an attempt to throw up dust.
Re "Don, the Times didn't "supress" your criticism of the tax cuts by not publishing your letter. The Times gets zillions of letters and publishes hardly any of them. Also, if the Times was for Bush's tax cuts, they had a funny way of showing it -- editorializing against the tax cuts, and all."
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I don't care whether the Times publishs my letters or not. What I care is whether the Times honestly examines the benefits and costs that political actions brings to our common citizens. I think any review of the record will show that it does not.
The Times editorials and the Paul Krugman columns are not REAL dissent -- they are the FACADE of dissent. Real dissent would be to publish the damaging FACTS re how Bush was screwing the working citizens of this country --on page one.
Most citizens depending upon the Times to keep them informed would rightfully dismiss the Times editorials as pompous cant devoid of substance or significant facts. Which I think is the whole purpose of said editorials -- to pose as a liberal critic while being deliberately ineffective at the job.
Jello: actually, "liberals" like MattY have supported the status quo and the exploitation you mention, in addition to other negative impacts such as border deaths.
It's those who want to enforce the laws - like Dobbs - who oppose the exploitation that "liberals" like MattY in effect support.
I'd suggest thinking about the big picture and the ultimate outcome. You might find yourself realizing that things - and people - aren't always what they're presented as.
The Aztlan/Reconquista thing is insane. Believing that of Mexicans is like believing that Jews have horns and drink the blood of Christian babies. It's that detatched from reality. As Lou Dobbs is about to find out, people who say things like that are best avoided because you can ruin your credibility just by standing too close to them. If Dobbs is a racist, he'd be a pretty run-of-the-mill one, were it not for such monumental failures of judgment.
There are people who want to reclaim the Southwest for Mexico -- they're American-born college students. They're standing next to the "Free Mumia" brigade at every campus protest. They'll get over it once they're out of college. Actual immigrants from Mexico don't even know this "Aztlan" bullshit exists. If they loved Mexico that much, why would they risk their lives to come here?
TLB:
Read all my posts. I like Lou Dobbs. I don't like Bruce Reed and Bill Clinton and other libs who think Black Market workers, one-sided trade deals, outsourcing, and liberal social policies combined with reactionary Laizez-Faire Economic policies written by Corporations represents a decent version of modern American liberalism.
The left has been sold out by its leaders.
How about we take a VOTE??
Who is the BIGGEST liar to the American people -- Lou Dobbs or the New York Times?
Lou Dobbs -- or the newspaper that promises us that it will provide us with "all the news that's fit to print"?
My vote for "the biggest liar" goes to the New York Times. What do the rest of you think?
Too Many Steves:
If you legalize the illegals who are here (which I am in favor of, unlike Dobbs), but then do NOT secure the border, what do you think will happen? Will construction companies start paying their immigrant workers the same fair rate they pay American workers? Hardly. They will FIRE their current illegal immegrant workers, and then HIRE a whole new batch of illegals fresh out of the Arizona desert at the same exploitative wages their current workers are making.
Dobbs' wife, and this can't be stressed enough, is a MEXICAN American. I'm sure he would support full legal status of all current illegals IF, and only IF, we could get a real border policy we could trust. This is difficult, because the last legalization/border control comprimise (late '80s) ended up with a whole lotta legalization, and absolutely no enforcement of the border control provisions.
His series on immigration is not titled "Get the Hell Out" but rather "Broken Borders," and is there any real doubt that our borders are, in fact, broken?
You can't deal honestly with any part of the immigration issue if you are not going to meaningfully deal with the broken border piece of it.
Rich A-Holes will always seek to exploit the poor and exploitable. We need a border policy that prevents this. Show me a Democratic platform including such an understanding, and I'll dump Doobs. Until then...
Too Many Steves:
If you legalize the illegals who are here (which I am in favor of, unlike Dobbs), but then do NOT secure the border, what do you think will happen? Will construction companies start paying their immigrant workers the same fair rate they pay American workers? Hardly. They will FIRE their current illegal immegrant workers, and then HIRE a whole new batch of illegals fresh out of the Arizona desert at the same exploitative wages their current workers are making.
Dobbs' wife, and this can't be stressed enough, is a MEXICAN American. I'm sure he would support full legal status of all current illegals IF, and only IF, we could get a real border policy we could trust. This is difficult, because the last legalization/border control comprimise (late '80s) ended up with a whole lotta legalization, and absolutely no enforcement of the border control provisions.
His series on immigration is not titled "Get the Hell Out" but rather "Broken Borders," and is there any real doubt that our borders are, in fact, broken?
You can't deal honestly with any part of the immigration issue if you are not going to meaningfully deal with the broken border piece of it.
Rich A-Holes will always seek to exploit the poor and exploitable. We need a border policy that prevents this. Show me a Democratic platform including such an understanding, and I'll dump Doobs. Until then...
"If you legalize the illegals who are here (which I am in favor of, unlike Dobbs), but then do NOT secure the border, what do you think will happen? Will construction companies start paying their immigrant workers the same fair rate they pay American workers? Hardly. They will FIRE their current illegal immegrant workers, and then HIRE a whole new batch of illegals fresh out of the Arizona desert at the same exploitative wages their current workers are making."
I don't think you understand me -- I think those new immigrants should be legal, too.
too many steves says: There are people who want to reclaim the Southwest for Mexico -- they're American-born college students. They're standing next to the "Free Mumia" brigade at every campus protest. They'll get over it once they're out of college.
It's good to see you at least acknowledge some degree of sentiment. Unfortunately, RaulGrijalva - an (alleged) United States Representative - has been out of college for quite awhile, yet he hasn't "got over it". TonyVillar - as I excrutiantly detailed above - was only forced to pretend to "get over it" when someone followed him around with a sign. CA Sen. GilCedillo has tried to give DriversLicenses to IllegalAliens seven or eight times; just a few years ago he said we should do it because "they were here first". He clearly hasn't "gotten over it".
There's even an Illinois state Sen. who serves on an advisory committee to the Mexican government. (He is, naturally, a Democrat).
And, those college students are future considered-mainstream Democratic leaders, and they won't "get over it", they'll just have even more power.
Actual immigrants from Mexico don't even know this "Aztlan" bullshit exists.
More disinformation. While the Aztlan myth was created in the U.S. (AFAIK), a Zogby poll done of Mexicans in Mexico showed that 58% think the U.S. southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico. Not only are they taught that in school, but useful idiots allow the MexicanGovernment to give "free" textbooks to U.S. public schools teaching the same thing.
I've posted thousands of entries on this general issue, and I can assure you that MattY and the other elite minions have absolutely no clue.
I understand you completely, TMS. Here's the problem: most of these people have no or very limited English or job skills. They CAN'T get jobs at the prevailing wage if they come here legally. The only "skill" they offer is the willingness and ability (because they are illegal and therefore off-the-books) to work for pennies on the dollar. So, even if we offer them legal immigration, they will still come here ILLEGALLY because that's the only way they can get a job working for Wal-Mart.
The idea that these people do jobs Americans won't do or that corporations want to hire Americans but can't find any is a load of crap. Americans won't do these jobs AT THE PRICE THEY ARE OFFERED AT and corporations are hiring illegals for the sole purpose of paying them less than is legally allowed while not paying the attendant costs of an on-the-books employee (Payroll Tax matching contributions and all the rest). Many large companies have people on the ground in Mexico recruiting people to sneak across the border and make their way to an employment location in America. This will continue even if all Mexican citizens are offered legal immigration UNLESS WE SEAL THE BORDER.
TLB - By what right DOES the Southwest rightfully belong to the US? Isn't that the exact same right by which Kuwait belongs to Iraq? I'd say the facts on the ground warrant keeping Phoenix under the American flag, but I'd be hard pressed to say it RIGHTFULLY BELONGS to the US. Those are two entirely separate issues.
And didn't these immigrants LEAVE Mexico? Does this imply that they want to put the Mexican government in charge of the Southwest so they can reacquire the fabulous benefits of Mexican citizenship?
"Lone Wacko" is not just a clever name, is it?
(Obligatory disclaimer: I support improved border security and reduced immigration of unskilled workers because these things, you know, make sense, not because La Raza is secretly planning to reconquer Orange County in the name of Montezuma.)
I am laughing my ass off.
DRR and pseudonymous in nc both post all over the web and take an extreme OPEN BORDERS pro-Cheap Labor lobby stance everytime. Meanwhile Matt here is the sort of crazy pseudo-liberal elitist who admires the Investor Business Daily take on high tech middle class labor arbitrage visas. Nice way fellas to help guide the Left Blogosphere towards policy positions that will result in an overwhelming crushing defeat in 2008.
For folks like DRR and pseudonymous in nc the only arguments they are able to make is to call their opponents racist. It is really tiresome. It takes more serious minded thinkers on immigration matters the same amount of mental energy to break wind. pseudonymous in nc is a Brit, living I believe in Northern California , so it is not like he has any clue what it is like to live in the Midwest and be a grass roots Democratic party supporter/activist. I keep challenging guys like him that if he is so expert on these matters then why not come on out to Wisconsin, Illinois including Chicagoland or Indiana and go knock on doors of Democratic and Independent voters. Hell do some phone banking from Cali. Try telling folks that the Senate Comprehensive Immigration Bill is in their best interests. I would love to see him catch an hearfull from citizens and legal immigrants alike who feel betrayed by much of what is being proposed. Folks are a hell of a lot more educated on these issues than they think.
For these clowns anybody who holds a Restricted-Immigration Philosophy including quotas, Secure Borders, and Attrition through Enforcement of existing Employment and Immigration laws in the place of the largely unnecessary strawman of outright deportation of Illegal Aliens is a racist. Well guys, I hate to tell you. I guess that makes 70-80% of Americans who support just these very policies a racist. You fellas must be awful paranoid knowing that 3 out of 4 folks you pass on the street are racist. And you know what??? Because of brave folks like Dobbs, but more importantly millions of activists, the numbers keep growing everyday.
Also in DRR and pseudonymous in nc's minds anybody who questions the extreme agenda of the Tech Industry, ITAA and Immigration Lawyers of America on H1-B, L1, and F4 visa programs is a protectionist rube. Likewise polls indicate that Americans are overwhelmingly against increases in middle class Labor Arbitrage visa programs.
The SPLC has morphed into well documented and funded attack dog for the corporatist CHEAP LABOR LOBBY and has very little credibility left. I bust a gut laughing about far left white men on Corporate Welfare who claim be looking out for the interests of African-Americans on immigration matters. African-Americans, who polls show are becoming more and more supportive of restrictions on immigration and for anti-illegal alien enforcement. Just ask an African-American how they feel about the "jobs Americans won't do" propaganda. Hear about Dave Chappelle ripping into Carlos Mencia lately??? To the SPLC any and all Immigration Restrictionist, Secure Borders or Anti-Labor Arbitrage groups are hate groups. Meanwhile the SPLC has gone record time and time again downplaying the strength of Mexican racist groups like MECha and the extreme Aztlan.
The SPLC has even labeled well known liberals like Roy Beck the head of NumbersUSA the fastest growing mainstream Immigration Restrictionist organization a dupe of racists. The same Roy Beck whose books are used as a part of courses on immigration policy and ethics at leading universities including the Kennedy School of Government.
As far as Lou Dobbs is concerned. Dobbs came to the Immigration debate in response to literally tens of millions of Americans who were sick and tired of the insanely sloppy Corporatist slant of the MSM on Immigration, Free Trade and Secure Borders issues. The idea that Dobbs is the instigator of the Anti-Illegal Alien, Anti-Free Trade, Broken Borders backlash is pure nonsense. After 20 years of being ignored on the Free Trade, Global Labor Arbitrage and Immigration issues, huge numbers of Americans are sick of the NYT, WAPO, and LA Times's out of touch coverage. No wonder their circulation and readership are dropping.
Of course Dobbs has allowed Representatives from the Minuteman Project or other citizen immigration enforcement groups on his show. If some of theses folks do actually have racist views that does not by itself invalidate their activism for Secure Borders and enforcement of laws restricting the flow of Illegal Aliens. And I clearly believe that Dobbs over the years has reported on accusations of racism against the Minuteman movements. I could not stand Jerry Falwell who had a 50 year record of opposing civil rights for Gays and African-Americans. I still felt Falwell had the right to appear on television. I just wish the MSM talked about his background more often.
Dobbs has frequently allowed representatives from La Raza and other fronts for the extreme Open Borders agenda and the clearly law breaking Sanctuary Movement on his show. He has allowed Open Borders apologists like Laura Flanders and the SPLC come on his show and attack him openly and repeatedly. So you can not for one minute claim Dobbs has not allowed a far more varied and open debate than any other show on television. The public's response to these very shows has been a clear and marked increases in viewership and polls indicating growing widespread support for Dobbs' views. But hell what do the rubes know!!! Great way to win over the electorate!!!
The truth is the NYT, WAPO and the rest of the MSM does not know what to make of Dobbs because of the over whelming fierce resistance that is growing among Americans of all political parties and ethnicities' against their wildly elitist corporatist Immigration and Free Trade agenda.
Dobbs stands up for the working class of this country
That's why his investment newsletter praises companies that outsource American jobs.
and his arguments vis-a-vis immigration hinge on security and economics, not whether someone of Hispanic descent should be allowed to enter the country.
That's why he needs to spout lies about a goddamn leprosy epidemic, of all demented and dangerous things.
Phila: I discuss another source which was spouting off about leprosy being endemic at the link.
Hint: they're a newspaper from New York City.
Oh gawd, cameljockey's here.
Are you going to prove that I'm being paid by some industry group I've never heard of, or are you going to apologise for chucking round groundless accusations? Or are you just going to shoot off again like a blind man with a machine gun?
Sheesh, at least Chris Kelly is reliably dull in his ever-more-desperate blogwhoring and maniacal fear of the Mexicans coming to steal his Guinness and rape his dog:
I've posted thousands of entries on this general issue, and I can assure you that MattY and the other elite minions have absolutely no clue.
Shorter Wack O': "please read my blog, oh pretty please! it's not as if I don't post enough disguised links to dark assertions that the insurgencia is coming."
Dobbs's hobby-horse about dirty filthy Mexicans is a big reason why this slender window for a proper debate about immigration. And I'll just note that while he apparently devoted a chunk of his show to defending his vast ego against the New York Times, the biggest immigration story of the day -- that it will soon cost three times as much to become a legal permanent resident, and twice as much for a LPR to become a citizen -- got precisely fuck-all coverage.
Ugh.
Dobbs is preventing a proper, informed discussion on immigration from taking place in one of the few gaps in the political calendar when it can take place. And believe it or not, I think that discussion also involves border control in more sophisticated terms than 'the build a fuck-off-high wall' crowd.
The illegal Irish are going to lead an army of illegal Mexicans to war with Genie O'Grady once we can reach an agreement on the offical beverage for this endeavor and if Mass will be in English or Spanish.
sonofabitch, why would anyone defend an a-hole just beacuse other a-holes are getting away with a-holery? Calling Dobbs a liar and scum doesn't make limbaugh, imus, beck, and all the rest of the repubblican cultists any less liars and scum if you fail to condem them in the same sentence that you condem dobbs....shhhheeeesssshhhh.
.
Lou Dobbs is telling it like it is. His snively detractors that call him a racist or a liar in order to discredit him. Lots of Americans agree with him on immigration and globalization. I do.
Jews feel they right to call white societies racist with impunity. Well lets look at Israel. It is the most racist country there is. Supporters of Israel are racists. You should not be casting stones Matt
Lou Dobbs is telling it like it is. His snively detractors that call him a racist or a liar in order to discredit him are racists and liars them selves. Lots of Americans agree with him on immigration and globalization. I do.
Jews feel they right to call white societies racist with impunity. Well lets look at Israel. It is the most racist country there is. Supporters of Israel are racists. You should not be casting stones Matt
In Vancouver there's a crane operator who flies a Mexican flag on his crane. I've seen Mexican 20- and 30-something males exiting the Greyhound bus depot with boxes of tools they can barely drag with them. Any trade you can think of, really. Their girlfriends, wives etc are working alongside Filipinos, Chinese etc at McD's.
Yes, Canada too is being flooded with cheap labour. Almost all of them if not all of them are working for temp agencies, i.e. they get screwed out of the good wage (temp "industry" thrives, obviously, and no doubt with the appropriate kickbacks), owners and shareholders increase their wealth by raking in bonanza of "retired" labour costs.
They are stomping mercilessly on the working class. The middle class disregards the spectacle at its peril.
By the way, I love all the Latinos all over the place, I meam, who the hell doesn't like Latinos, they are so... Latino. Most are just regular cool people who would happen to not be adverse to hijacking a beer truck if given the chance. I just am angry about the current reason for their presence. Now that they're here, I want them to stay here... to help stomp some wealthy butt.
Lou Dobbs "responded" to the Time article today. Here's the transcript.
The most interesting thing about his response is that he doesn't actually address the leprosy claim that started this whole brouhaha. Here's what he said:
Today's New York Times column is primarily a personal attack on me, focuses on an ad-lib on the set of this broadcast uttered more than two years ago by Christine Romans on a number of cases of leprosy in this country. An unscripted ad-lib, not a report by the way -- we've never done a report on leprosy until we had to set this record straight a couple of weeks ago. That's over four and a half years of reporting on that issue.
And later:
That columnist also said I gave air time to white supremacists, and mentions one by name, Madeleine Cosman, who wrote the article that Christine Romans used as a source for her later leprosy statement.
The fact is, I made a mistake, and I've said we would never have used her as a source if we had known of her controversial background two years ago, at the time of the offending ad-lib. But the columnist fails to note that his own paper wrote a glowing obituary of Madeleine Cosman when she died last year.
Not a word about his defending the incorrect leprosy numbers on 60 Minutes, and no mention at all about what the incorrect statement was, just that he "made a mistake" by using Madeleine Cosman as a source.
Rush Limbaugh doesn't deserve to be lumped in with the raving pseudo-populist Lou Dobbs. Limbaugh has been extremely articulate and on-point on the immigration bill. This isn't the first time he has called Bush on it when Bush has tried to ram a hugely consequential bill through with little debate -- Rush spoke out against the Medicare Part D bill too.
Of course, Dobbs is right on the wider issue: those who profit from massive illegal activity - left and right - are going to continue to attack him. If MattY wanted to be intellectually honest - instead of an ignorant hack - he might at least acknowledge the monetary and political power motives of those yapping at Dobbs.
Click the link for the things the NYT "reporter" forgot to tell you.
If Chris Kelly wanted to be intellectually honest, he really wouldn't spend his days blogwhoring, and copy-and-pasting the same old shit from his personal Wiki of anti-Mexican paranoid conspiracy theory.
And if Chris Kelly wanted to be intellectually honest, he'd have to stop dodging the similarities between his campaign and the anti-Irish Know-Nothings of the mid-1800s.
And if Chris Kelly really wanted to be intellectually honest, he'd stop arguing with straw men, because that's what happens when you draft your blogwhoring in advance.
Dobbs may have powerful, wealthy opponents, but his show consistently and unrelentingly targets those who are just about the weakest possible position in American political society: and that includes immigrants with visas, green cards and no vote. He's a bully. He bullies his guests, he bullies his reporting staff, he bullies the rest of CNN.
And don't go pasting your boilerplate LaRazaWillRapeYourCat shite. You know who comes up with fantasies of a Mexican insurgency in Southern California? It's not spinach-pickers and construction workers. It's bloggers with too much fucking time on their hands.
"Click the link! Click the link! Click the tinyurl that redirects to my site! Please give me a cent or two of AdSense money because Paco the strawberry picker took my job, and the only job Mexicans won't do is nativist blogwhoring!"
Christ, you're fucking pathetic.
pseudonymous in nc,
First of all the blogger name is llamajockey not cameljockey. Cameljockey is a derogatory name for Arabic people that I would never use. llamajockey is my idea of an absurd phrase and therefore useful and whimsical blogger id based on the fact you can not ride a llama. You can not even look a llama in the eye for that matter with out risking it spitting at you. The name was inspired by a favorite Neil Young song "Ride My Llama".
Next the only person using the "Dirty Mexican" term is you as you attempt to stifle the immigration debate by calling others racists. Like I have said before, more proof that you are completely full of shit with nothing to add to the discussion.
Now the problem of Corporate America encouraging our Government to abdicate its duty to lookout for the public's health in its rush to import cheap labor is well documented. It is very common for workers from Third World and developing countries not to actually have the health insurance that was promised to them by third party contractors as a means of saving money and further underbidding wages, the great race to the bottom.
A case in point I observed first hand. I worked for Sears Roebuck in suburban Hoffman Estates in 1994. Sears was very quickly beginning to hire Indian and Asian H1-B programmers through various contracting "bodyshops". A very earnest young Indian programmer fell deathly ill from what was a very serious illness. I was later told the illness was a chronic form of hepatitis he had contracted in his home country. Again the real issue was not the illness so much that the contractor responsible was not providing this man with critically need health insurance as promised. Chronic Hepatitis is very treatable but requires proper attention and HEALTH INSURANCE. The young man fell so sick at work that my co-workers alerted management. That weekend he could not fulfill his support duties so the project leader was contacted. The result was that the group manager, who had no idea that the contractor was so unscrupulous as to not provide health benefits, had to get involved so the man in question got proper medical attention at a public emergency room. Later this contractor folded up business shafting numerous Sears foreign "non-immigrant" consultants. We literally had one consultant sleeping on another programmer's couch until payment issues were resolved. So in this case the American taxpayer ended up picking up the tab. Eventually Sears had to revise its approved IT contractor list. The Indian man in question lost his job at Sears through no fault of his own.
Now if you care to visit any number of sites that concern themselves with immigration matters you might learn that this sort of thing is not uncommon. Indian H1-B and L1 workers in particular are often cheated out of health care and retirement benefits, even state and federal tax withholdings. This is so commonplace that Indian IT workers have themselves been struggling to be able fight for their employment rights in US courts of law. A couple of months a go Indian "non-immigrant" IT workers won their first major case in a US court that is now on appeal. Of course the Indian government is fighting on the side of the large Indian outsourcing firms against the interests of its own citizens on this very matter. Indian "non-immigrant" IT workers are spending a pretty penny on American lawyers to represent them against the virtual indentured labor contracts under which they work, and their own Indian government. Both Prof Norm Matloff and the JobDestructionNewsletter websites have archives of articles on these matters going back a decade. Also try visiting any number of India IT worker websites warning their countrymen of corrupt overseas IT con men.
Now as far as leprosy, TB, hepatitis, meningitis, measles, singles and even plague. Some of these are potentially chronic illnesses that even once under control and no longer active or virulent require additional follow up, and periodic treatment to remain so. Remember also that many workers coming to US from developing nations through visa programs eventually wish to have their parents come to the US as well under chain migration laws. Their parents lived during times when these illness were far more commonplace in developing nations. These parents are often enrolled in our country's over burdened Medicaid system. Also keep in mind immigrants have considerable incentives to under report these diseases when they enter our country.
Furthermore it is very important to try to distinguish between active and inactive cases of leprosy(Hansen's disease), tuberculosis and hepatitis. I believe that making this key distinction is a source of the Dobbs vs SPLC phony controversy. The wildly corrupt SPLC, as documented in the wildly circulated mentioned above Harpers' article, is merely trying to exploit the issue. Medical matters themselves are a relatively rare instance of Dobbs' reporting on immigration issues. It is the very sort of shameless tactic the SPLC is known for. Now I do not consider Dobbs a medical expert, but from what I have read from a medical public health stand point an active or inactive case of Hansen's disease both still require periodic if not ongoing medical treatment and observation to remain so. Also monitoring is critical for public safety to insure that treatment resistant strains do not develop or spread. For every active case of leprosy reported in the US there are many that are inactive. The larger point is that from what I have read there is every reason to believe that Dobbs is entirely correct that the strain imposed on our fractured health care system by largely third world diseases that our medical community is unfamiliar with, is more widespread than Cheap Labor advocates care to admit. Since the US does not have Universal health care the issue is who insures that migrants will have access to health care to insure public safety and a compassionate society. Also who pays. Because American workers especially older ones who are being shut out of the workplace by imported cheap labor both legal and illegal have every reason and right to resent seeing public money spent on the health care of "non-immigrants " or illegal aliens.
A huge controversy in the debate over the Senate "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" bill is this very issue. The CIR bill supposedly insures that third party contractors and US corporations will be required by law that they are providing health insurance to "non-immigrants" on temporary work visas like the H1-B and L1. Likewise other prospective legal immigrants are supposed to insure that they will be able to purchase or gain employment providing health care. The trouble is everybody knows these clauses in the CIR Bill are merely unenforceable boilerplate meant to confuse and mislead the public that something meaningful is being done.
I think you're a bit mistaken. The difference between Dobbs and Beck, Hannity, et. al. is that (a) he's not on Fox News, (b) he's not primarily an interview show (like Scarborough/Tweety) and (c) he's not on in the post-dinner hours (like Olberman, Hannity, etc.). In short: he's CNN's competition for Brian Williams, Katie Couric, and Charles Gibson.
So what does CNN put up to compete against the insipid "Ds say X, GOP say Y" type of "fairness" and the total surface-level gloss of any story not involving Lindsay Lohan? Something that lives up to the "news network" name? Something like Lehrer/Ifill? Something like CNN international?
Nope, something that is pretty darn close to Beck, Hannity, et. al.
That said, I agree with your point. Dobbs seems to me like a republican populist who steers his ship of populism somewhere awful close to the straits of straight-up racism, but also not totally far from the shores of trade unionism and anti-globalization. For all his lies, half-truths, race-baiting, and overall offensiveness on a ton of issues, Dobbs actually has spoken about labor issues. On TV!
The Aztlan/Reconquista thing is insane. Believing that of Mexicans is like believing that Jews have horns and drink the blood of Christian babies.
Actually, a closer analogy would be to compare it to the Protocols of the Elder of Zion nonsense. As a latino jew, I should know, I am part of both conspiracies. You would not believe all the conflicts of interest this causes.
Seriously, I think people are confusing some feelings of national history/pride/wound (about some parts of US being "rightfully Mexican") with the existence of a covert conspiracy to actually move part of the US back to Mexico. The first is probably true to some extent; the second is pure fantasy.
Illegals should be sent back home and never allowed to return. They broke the law, they pay the consequences. Get these leeches out of here, my tax dollars aint for charity.
Dobbs concerns me because the "middle class" in the US have some serious economic concerns that neither party wants to address. The costs of health care, widening economic disparity between the well-off and the working class and shrinking wages are a few of the major issues I'm thinking of. The inaction and disinterest of the Democrats (with some exceptions) and the GOP opens the way for right-wing nativist politics. Dobbs is taking advantage of this and he's been quite effective. He's not so much the problem. The problem is that his advocacy could form the basis for an effective political movement. The bright side, if their is one, is the poor record that third parties have in the US even in the face of our corrupt and ineffective major parties. The bad news is that we can expect little to be done in addressing the real concerns of the middle class and we can expect continued smoldering resentment from a lot of the people who suffering as a result of this inaction.
"a closer analogy would be to compare it to the Protocols of the Elder of Zion nonsense."
You beat me to it Carlo; that's exactly the analogy that strikes me with this "Aztlan" nonsense. Along with the fear mongering about disease a lot of this propaganda has a familiar ring to it...
Given the state of the MSM, you've got to be grateful for even one article that stands up to the blowhards. And don't give Dobbs credit for advocating for the middle class ... he's just latched on to a populist issue that he thinks works for him. There are a lot of Hispanic middle-class Americans too, but to Dobbs they're still the enemy.
But Dobbs did get one thing right in his non-denial denial about the NYT story -- the Times obituary on Cosman was a love letter. I looked it up, and it shows the Times minimizing Cosman's racist anti-immigrant activities (which they clearly knew about) while fawning over her eccentric hobbies and accomplishments.
Et tu, NYT?
Clay Fink
Dobbs is taking advantage of this and he's been quite effective.
I disagree with you on this. Where the former lower middle Texan-Idahoan Dobbs stands out from the rest of the MSM is that he is not a part of the Beltway-Hamptons-Martha's Vineyard 500 F-Wit Cocktail weenie set. That is in spite of being a Harvard grad. My God could you imagine the condescending looks Dobbs would get taking his Mexican wife to a party in order to rub elbows with the likes of David Broder, Chris Matthews, Cokie Roberts , Maureen Dowd and of course queen bee Sally Quinn.
I also believe that Dobbs works twice as hard as the rest of these MSM assholes put together. Please take the time to read his book "The War on the Middle Class". Name any other TV talking head who is closely familiar with the great liberal economist and public intellectual John Kenneth Galbraith. Not to mention to willing to quote Galbraith at the risk of being branded a liberal. Dobbs inserts famous phrases of Galbraith like countervailing powers and the Affluent Society in his opinions and articles all the time.
No what sets Dobbs apart is that he actually spends hours a day reading email from his viewers. In that case he is much more a part of the left and right Blogospheres' revolt against the out of touch elitist MSM than any other journalist on TV day. And I include liberal favorite Keith Olbermann in that statement. Only the satirist John Stewart and Bill Moyers come anything close to Dobbs on populist grounds.
Nope, Dobbs in not exploiting a God Dam thing; In the battle against Corporatist Open Borders, "Free Trade" and Global Labor Arbitrage agenda that has dominated the MSM economic coverage and rained havoc on working Americans, Dobbs has slowly come around by both observation and literally reading the emails of average folks. Dobbs takes a beating for his out of mainstream stands daily. Getting insinuated as a racist from the shameless Corporate Hired Guns over at the "hacktactluar" money grubbing SPLC is nothing. Numerous Corporatist groups have attempted to bribe Dobbs by offering him huge speaking fees. The same ridiculous fees too many of his already millionaire MSM fellow journalist are too happy to accept for in return taking the Elitist Corporatist line. Somehow Dobbs has remarkably survived numerous Corporate power play attempts to remove him from the airwaves. Yesterday's insipid NYT attack piece was merely one more of these attempts.
What makes Dobbs such a large target is precisely where MATT YGLESIAS has his head way up his ass. Like the not very subtle parting shot Atrios took at Yglesias yesterday vaguely suggests. Matt launched his pathetic smear by linking to a rapidly discredited SPLC inspired NYT hatchet job against Dobbs because deep down Matt still holds the hope of becoming part of the well payed 500 F-Wits set someday. Believe me among the 500 F-Wits Lou Dobbs is deeply despised and envied. No Liberal Progressive with a brain should be fooled by Matt's bout of pandering and apple polishing.
CarloP says: Seriously, I think people are confusing some feelings of national history/pride/wound (about some parts of US being "rightfully Mexican") with the existence of a covert conspiracy to actually move part of the US back to Mexico. The first is probably true to some extent; the second is pure fantasy.
Likewise, MEChA does not exist. These people are actually claymation puppets: tinyurl.com/yubcvd Rabidly radical ethnic studies professors are just a figment of your imagination. ElenaPoniatowski (sp?) likewise is fictional. Mexican editorials advocating reconquest do not exist.
BTW: as pointed out here or elsewhere, few people think there are reconquest meetings. However, there are confluences of interest with, for instance, L.A.'s mayor being a MexicanPartisan who's collaborated with that government to block U.S. law. Enough people do that over enough time, and there doesn't have to have been an overt or covert conspiracy: it'll happen naturally.
llamajockey,
Thanks for adopting a civil tone. I'll do likewise.
We really do need to stop talking past each other, because once you strip out the shouting, there's plenty of room to find common ground. And that's all I want.
You know my attitude towards the H1-B: I think it's atrociously implemented, its quotas are grabbed and hoarded by firms who behave like ticket touts. And Congress has decided to get rid of the EB visa, which would be my preferred route for genuine high-skill, high-experience tech workers. That's dumb.
On the general issue of immigrants and health: first of all, Dobbs wouldn't know the difference between active and inactive cases. He just pulled the numbers out of a handy nativist source, and excusing that repeated tendency really doesn't wash.
Secondly, most legal immigrants get at least one comprehensive physical before they even arrive in the US. And if your complaint is about the healthcare system, then it's about the healthcare system, not the people who use it. I can't think of a better way to ensure that the fractures in the American system aren't repaired than to create the impression that illegal immigrants will freeload. And there are corporate interest that would like such an impression to flourish.
aviatrix makes the most compelling point. Dobbs is that strangest of birds: someone who hints at the rhetoric of class politics, but does it to divide and conquer. If illegal immigrants were somehow raptured away, their US citizen replacements would still be shittily paid, denied benefits, fired for trying to unionise, shoddily compensated for illness and injury on the job. But those issues don't go away just because you're supposed to be outraged at Diego the berry-picker.
That's why I think Dobbs is a bully and a fraud: he rode the wave of irrational enthusiasm in the 90s, and he's riding the wave of ressentiment today.
If illegal immigrants were somehow raptured away, their US citizen replacements would still be shittily paid, denied benefits, fired for trying to unionise, shoddily compensated for illness and injury on the job.
Yeah, but you could sue or report them, that's the whole point. An illegal immigrant can't do a damn thing, a "guest worker" really can't either since snitching would get them sent packing from the country.
lonewacko,
I spent more time looking at your site this morning. Safe to say as a liberal I do not share many of your opinions outside of fighting against the Open Borders and Illegal Alien insanity and the loony left's incomprehensible support for Corporate America's Global Labor Arbitrage agenda.
As a staunch Democrat and grass roots party GOTV activist I can tell you that a large majority of the base is becoming completely alienated by a relatively small minority of Far Left-wing Secular Globalists, MSM talkingpoint stenographers, DLC corporatists, left-wing Catholic Open Borders Fundamentalists, Latino militants and upper class So-called Liberals who hire illegal cheap labor.
For years I worked part time for a catering service in Chicago on the very same 26th street you mentioned previously with a large number of African-Americans and Latinos. I know first hand that Blacks are deeply insulted by the "jobs Americans won't do" bullshit. Likewise I have met many free thinking Latinos who will tell you flat out that having racial identity groups like MEChA in the school system and increasingly dominating local politics is completely batshit.
Democrats, Liberals Progressives are in complete denial over both MEChA and especially Aztlan.
My analogy is if La Raza is what was left of SDS post the 1968 Chicago convention riots, MEChA is the Weatherman and Aztlan will soon morph into the bomb making Weather Underground. That is once it is clear that the overwhelming majority of Americans will reject the abhorent mess that currently passes for "Comprehensive Immigration Reform". Having been throughly radicalized and then pandered to by Extreme Libertarians, Cheap Labor Corporatists, DLCers, the Catholic Church, the Secular Globalist Left and still coming up way short politically, Aztlan will believe that it has no other choice but to fight against the ineventable political blacklash against Open Borders insanity but through violent means. Delusional Democrats and Liberals will try to lay the blame for all this idiocy at Lou Dobbs' feet. Now that Hillary has gone all in by embracing "CIR" in return for gaining the support of former MEChA activist and LA mayor Villiagrosia, I expect the Open Borders movement to split the Democratic party far far worse than the Republicans. Face it folks the fuse has been lit. It is only a matter of time now.
You have mentioned "Duke1676" over at Dailykos at your site. My opinion is that the Democratic party has been infiltrated by a large number of self-serving immigration lawyers. Many of these are former far far left wingers and some of which are now merely the very well payed tools of Corporate America. A prime example is the notorious DLCer Harris Miller, behind the scenes architect of Simpson-Mazzoli, well known buster of the farm workers union, mega rich founder of the ITAA, BFF of Hillary, Emmanuel , Schummer, DiFi..., and the Race Baiting loser to Jim Webb in the Virginia primary. Many other immigration lawyers have learned to prey upon Illegals and legal immigrants alike by shaking them down for legal fees and services that undermine the legal system and the original intent of the immigration laws. Lets face it the SPLC today pretty much functions as the same thing, a Corporatist Attack Dog. And to this add the lobbyists and public relations goons who lurk at Liberal websites and pounce on anyone questioning their Open Borders agenda. I and other true liberals over at DailyKos suspect that "DUKE1676" among others is one of the latter.
I have spent literally thousands of hours personally battling these dishonest paid advocates of the Open Borders agenda. It really is not hard making a strong NEW DEAL progressive liberal case against them. Yet NumbersUSA does it every day. What is tough are the tens of thousands of well meaning folks who fall for this corporatist PSY-OP propaganda.
I keep trying to warn folks that in 2008 the Lou Dobbs Democrat vote will be huge. Old fashioned New Deal Progressive Liberal, party strategist and rising star David Sirota has basically gone on record saying the same thing.
I have written numerous postings stating that in a national election pitting a Immigration Restrictionist yet socially moderate Rudy against an Open Borders DLCer apologist like Hillary or Obama the Democrats will get completely crushed. The best hope for the Democrats is that a old fashioned New Deal Progressive like Edwards gets the nomination. The problem is that Hillary, the DLC Corporatists and the Loony tunes OPEN BORDERS lefties and Radicalized Latinos will not resist stooping to MAU-MAUing Edwards on immigration issues. Therefore I would question whether an Edwards will have the ability to maneuver against those very folks in his own party who are hell bent on running it aground.
Worse yet having elected numerous true Immigration Reform and "FAIR TRADE" Democrats in the 2006 landslide, if the Beltway and DLCer Democrats continue to turn their backs on the base like they did with Simpson-Mazzoli in 1986 and NAFTA in 1994 the Republicans could very well take back the House. Every indication is that neither Pelosi or Reid are ideologically inclined, politically savvy or morally tough enough to prevent this from happening. I would hate to see the public vote back out of office Indiana Representives Elsworth, Hill and Donnely just to unseat Pelosi over Immigration and Free trade issues in addition to failure to end the Iraq War.
Once again it is the job of the Democratic party's progressive base to save it from the incompetence and graft of its own party's leadership.
Trust Me LONEWACKO I hate MUSH-HEADS and Liberal Frauds as much as you.
you could sue or report them, that's the whole point.
Big frigging whoop. Corporate America fears union cards as much as it does green cards.
And llamajockey: after a moment of lucidity, I see you've been divided and conquered by Chris Kelly and his John Carpenter fantasies. Oh well.
Gene O'Grady:
"On the other hand, it's probably not true that the amazingly embarrassing American St. Patrick's day can fairly be described as a foreign tradition.
Is there any other ethnic group that has a "tradition" that should so thoroughly embarrass it?"
Have you visited New York during the Puerto Rican Day Parade? Reminds me of a related headline in The Onion.
On the general issue of immigrants and health: first of all, Dobbs wouldn't know the difference between active and inactive cases. He just pulled the numbers out of a handy nativist source, and excusing that repeated tendency really doesn't wash.
But did Dobbs really do this??? His initial broadcast only spent less than a minute or two even mentioning Leprosy. A detailed discuss on leprosy and its public health implications would take at least 30 minutes. That is simply beyond the format of his show which is not entirely his fault. As it stood their really was nothing controversial about the original Dobbs piece. Those already informed individuals aware of the nature of leprosy and TB are aware that their are both active and inactive cases. Active case are a critical matter of the public record for health and safety reasons. Inactive cases while less serious require monitoring in the rare case of relapse. There is every reason to believe that inactive cases of the disease will out number active one by significant margins. Since victims of both disease can suffer relapses it is critical that individuals from developing nations entering this country legally or illegally for work that supposedly Americans can or will not do be monitored and have health insurance. Nor should they be entirely trusted to inform the INS of their medical status. Look at the international TB all over last night's news. Health care providers in this country are required to keep medical histories private. That being the case they will quietly document far more case of inactive TB and Leprosy when and IF and only IF they notice the tell tale signs of past infections for diseases no longer common in the US.
But that is just the point. Many many times "Non-immigrants" entering this country on H1-B and L1 visas are not receiving health benefits. Yet they are being used to replace older experienced American workers needing health care for themselves and their families. When you take away the taxes paid by employers and employees alike into our private health care system how can you not expect it to continue to breakdown?? Hell I have known Indian H1-B who had all their medical and dental care done during trips back home so you can not tell me their employers are paying into our country's health care system.
The fact that this country does not have Single Payer health insurance is not the issue. Because first of all how the hell can you even consider implementing such a social program when Open Borders fanatics will not allow for a tamper proof National Identification system needed to determine citizenship and residency status in order to qualify. How the hell do expect the American people to even vote for Single payer health insurance in an Open Borders environment where on the local news they routinely see photos of Illegal Aliens lined up outside the county hospital emergency expecting treatment. And it is not just Southern California. Its Indianapolis as well.
So the fact remains. The wildly unscrupulous SPLC saw an opportunity to attack DOBBS on a largely minor issue by taking the issue out of context and
blowing up its significance to unrecognizable levels of distortion and proportionality. When in fact in a larger context Dobbs was essentially correct. Open Borders advocates are greatly underestimating the impact of both Illegal Aliens, unsustainable levels of legal immigrants and especially "NON-IMMIGRANT" temporary workers on the nation's strained heath care system and public health infrastructure. The NYT, Atlantic Monthly and Matt Yglesias should be held accountable for knowing better concerning the SPLC unsavory reputation. It has been very well documented how the SPLC earns tens of millions from its now largely Cheap Labor Lobby Corporate backers and even known associates of Mexican Government for its partners like the admitted charlatan and founder Maurice Dees. Who the fuck do you think payed for the full page ads the SPLC published in the NYT attacking Dobbs. The poor exploited illegal aliens the SPLC claims to care about??? The SPLC has in recent years become especially secretive concerning its client list at a time it attacks any and all Immigration Restrictionist organizations for not revealing their backers and membership. To the SPLC all opponents of the Open Borders agenda are either openly racist hate groups or the dupes of racist hate groups. Sorry but this is all complete horseshit.
That is simply beyond the format of his show which is not entirely his fault.
That's no excuse. If you've got two minutes to cover a subject that needs ten minutes, then you don't cover it. Dobbs has full editorial control over his show, and he chooses to do it in a particular way.
And this is at the heart of the critique: Dobbs is a bad journalist. I took the liberty of glancing through this month's transcripts, and the distillation of an hour's broadcast into a few minutes' reading is educative. His dedicated out-of-studio correspondents are essentially working from templates. His in-studio correspondents are basically there to feed him lines.
He went for the cheap shock story, the push-poll, the image of plague-carrier immigrants that sears itself into the minds of viewers. And he sourced it atrociously.
Open Borders fanatics will not allow for a tamper proof National Identification system needed to determine citizenship and residency status in order to qualify.
I think your ire is misplaced on this account. Legal immigrants already have to be fingerprinted multiple times, photographed multiple times, have blood drawn, etc. Before RFID passports, the permanent resident card was probably the most complicated bit of identification technology in wide circulation. They have no dog in this fight.
It was that noted immigration policy expert Carlos Mencia who made the point that until Americans have tamper-proof birth certificates, and while births, deaths and marriages are handled at a state or county level, it's a rapidly-moving target.
A national ID, properly funded, with suitable data protection laws wouldn't bother me in the slightest. But corporate interests don't want data protection laws, libertarians don't want their information in a gubmint computer, and states don't want to pay for it.
In short, supporters of sane, rationalised legal immigration want people in the system.
How the hell do expect the American people to even vote for Single payer health insurance in an Open Borders environment where on the local news they routinely see photos of Illegal Aliens lined up outside the county hospital emergency expecting treatment.
Which is exactly my point: the fearmongering around immigration is a perfect way to convince Americans to cut off their noses to spite their faces. Divide and conquer, yet again. If the only thing stopping you from supporting universal healthcare is Those Damn Immigrants, then your priorities have been manipulated out of all proportion. Because if it wasn't Those Darn Immigrants, it would be Those Darn Other Folks to blame, as is the case in areas without large immigrant populations.
Finally, is the Council of Conservative Citizens a white supremacist group? Yes or no. Are prominent leaders of the Minutemen also tied to white supremacist organisations? Yes or no. Because you simply can't throw stones at the SPLC when you're living in a glass house.
My last point on this: Bill O'Reilly is clearly unaware that coverage of this issue is meant to be conducted through dog-whistles, rather than spoken out loud:
But do you understand what the New York Times wants, and the far-left want? They want to break down the white, Christian, male power structure, which you’re a part, and so am I, and they want to bring in millions of foreign nationals to basically break down the structure that we have. In that regard, Pat Buchanan is right.
O'Reilly and Buchanan: another two whose great-grandpappies were undoubtedly considered part of the 19th-c assault on America's 'white, Christian, male power structure'.
pseudonymous in nc
Once again you resort to the typical lies and distortions of the Open Borders agenda crowd.
Those Darn Immigrants
Again those are your words meant to not subtly imply that those who disagree with you are some how racist.
First of all nobody is railing against Darn Immigrants. Immigration Restrictionists simply recognize the fact that no matter what the good intentions there is no way everyone can be an American citizen. Immigration is to follow a orderly rule of law if it to have any meaning and purpose. Likewise there no justification for tolerance for Illegal Aliens nor the hiring or exploitation there of. This is in direct accordance with both the US Constitution and current law. Anything less risks seriously degrading the quality of life and jeopardizing a political and social culture that has been characterized as melting plot based on the principles of our constitution, bill of rights and declaration of independence. While American society was born out of the European Enlightenment it is believes itself to be based on universal rights and equality. It has taken America well over two hundred years of perseverance to come even close to its lofty ideals. Our "American culture" is not Religion, ethnicity or Race based no matter what a boob like Bill O'Reilly or a Reverend Dobson likes to suggest. By the way I certainly hope BillO is happy that his forebears left Ireland long ago to precisely escape the superstitious backward downtrodden Catholic along with the fearful and exploitative Protestant cultural rivalries that played such a role in its long delayed progress toward being the prosperous and still unifying nation it is today.
Where I strongly disagree with the Open Borders crowd is that America is not a Multicultural nation or a nation of immigrants but an assimilationist nation based on its founding principles. The key towards allowing for that to happen has been a recognition of the roles that Secure Borders and an orderly immigration and naturalization process play in this. To the decree that Racism and intolerance has been able to arise in America it has come at the very hands of those elitist individuals who wished to undermine the system all in the name of exploiting Cheap Labor under the guise of a perverse form of unregulated and inhumane capitalism. If our goals are a tolerant prosperous and just society then a recognition of the need for borders, orderly immigration and yes NUMBERS are critical. The overnight granting of US Citizenships to tens of million of Illegal Aliens who have shown a stunning lack of respect for the nation's laws and public institutions along with a partially understandable sense of entitlement due to years of labor exploitation in their native lands as well as here is a major threat to a harmonious society. Stating that as fact is not racism.
Finally, is the Council of Conservative Citizens a white supremacist group? Yes or no. Are prominent leaders of the Minutemen also tied to white supremacist organisations? Yes or no. Because you simply can't throw stones at the SPLC when you're living in a glass house.
Ok a Dobbs show producer used a series of graphics depicting the mythical maps of Aztlan from a CCC source which the CCC did in no way fabricate but lifted themselves directly from Aztlan rallies and their official websites. Yes the Dobbs show broke a rule of good journalism and should have gone to the original source. I believe the Dobbs show has admitted to making a relatively minor yet ultimately innocuous error. Clearly the goal of the Dobbs show was not to promote the CCC as a tolerant and trusted voice in the Immigration debate with an unprejudiced agenda. The Dobbs show does allow for a very very wide selection of few points on many issues. Far more than is the case on most cable programs. Lou Dobbs has stated many times that he believes running just such a show is what qualifies a good journalism, not the vain and elitist pursuit of the myth of "objectivity" so much as transparency. He has stated many times that the there are downsides to doing so. It is critical to making transparent the often unannounced hidden agendas of some political groups. The Dobbs show may not always be perfect but by the standards of Cable TV news he is far and above his rivals in this regard.
Now if you want to accuse the Dobbs show of being the dupes of a racist hate group like the SPLC is claiming than you are a either sucker for or a devious promoter of their own inflammatory and dishonest agenda. Because you have either swallowed a massive steaming load of BULLSHIT or are trying to force it down the throats of others. Either way I would suggest gargling with mouthwash and washing your hands before attempting to embrace your significant other.
Comments closed June 13, 2007.
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Heads in the Sand
I can't believe I am defending Dobbs but it seems awfully unfair for the media elite to criticize him while giving a pass to members of their own clique.
It is like the different treatment given to Jeff Gerth and Judith Miller. They are both guilty of same shoddy journalism. Gerth gave us Whitewater and Chinagate, Miller gave us WMD stories. They both relied on questionable right wing sources to produce hoaxes. And yet Gerth has a million dollar book deal and Miller is persona non grata. So unfair.
Back to Dobbs. I think his views on illegal immigration, free trade etc. are at odds with the prevailing "elite journalism" view.
In a rational world Charles Krauthammer would have been banished from journalism elite. Instead he is given yet another cushy job at Time as a "star columnist".
Posted by DonB | May 30, 2007 2:48 PM