B&H Photo in New York is, famously, run by very strict orthodox Jews. It never occurred to me until I just tried it today, however, that this would mean that they don't take orders through their website between sundown on Friday and sundown on Saturday. If you're allowed to employ a shabbes goy then why not a web server?
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Digital Sabbath
09 Jun 2007 05:43 pm
Comments (19)
From a strictly Orthodox perspective, that seems to make sense to me It's not just that they're not allowed to do work... but technically they're not allowed to do anything that would cause work, at least as I understand it. Which would mean creating a queue of orders on Sabbath. I can see the point. I even, kind of, respect them for being thorough about it.
It's not that they're not allowed to do anything that would cause work, as weboy has it. Orthodox Jews are allowed to set up automated processes that will run on the Sabbath.
I'm guessing that they're worried that a non-observant Jew might order something through their site on the Sabbath, and they'd thus be contributing to another Jew's sin.
Heh. Five hits for 'robogoy' and five for 'hobbitat for humanity.'
I'm only 4 or 5 off The Power Curve, man!
7 hits for 'goybot.'
I'm slipping.
So I'm assuming that they won't, for example, allow the male employees to shake the hands of their female customers.
The halachic problem is that they are not supposed to earn money or make a profit for any transactions done on the Sabbath. Some Orthodox businessmen will have a Gentile partner to whom they assign, in advance, all profits from business done during the Sabbath and yom tov; apparently B&H does not do this. However, the problem is different from that solved by the shabbos goy--who is merely doing work you want done, but which he would in theory be doing anyway.
There are rabbis who allow orders to be taken through websites during the Sabbath, on the idea that it is an automatic process (which is Avram's view), or hosted by a non-Jewish business, or that the order is not actually filled on the Sabbath. But obviously B&H took the view of a stricter posek.
MY,
Where have you been? I have known about B & H for close to 20 years now. If you think its interesting that they close down their website in observance of the Sabbath, you should go by their stores. They close early on Friday and don't open on Saturday. I wonder how much business they give away because of it. Also, it was my first experience seeing them in their traditional garb. I don't remember one person who worked there that didn't wear the traditional garb.
My impression was that the NYC Orthodox community enclosed their entire neighborhood within a loop of string (high up so that no one would walk into it) so that the area was technically "at home." I am not Orthodox Jewish so I forget what the loop is called.
If your web server was within this area, only the packets would be going in and out.
You're not allowed to profit or make money. It's their business and even if others ran it on the Sabbath, they'd profit from it. No good.
I admire their integrity about all of it, but it stinks for all tourists that go there tho--they usually have no clue that it's Sabbath or Passover or the High Holidays, etc, and are disappointed (i live nearby).
I've been ordering from them for years. I had no idea.
Wow, that about.com page that MY linked to is really terrible.
I'm far from knowledgable enough on the laws of Shabbat, but I know that it would be hard to find an observant family or synagogue that would employ a gentile to cook for them. They can set and clear the table, serve the food, etc., but can't do anything that a Jew wouldn't normally do. The "Shabbos goy" that some remember turning on and off the lights or the heat was never strictly permissible. His use became popular as an outgrowth of certain legal exceptions (like not wanting to inhibit the fulfillment of other Shabbat-related commandments, or for medical considerations).
http://www.torah.org/advanced/shulchan-aruch/classes/orachchayim/chapter18.html
Kishnevi alluded to all of this in his comment, but Matt's original assumption needed a little clarification. (Or perhaps reading the Times has short-circuited my irony detector).
That said, I absolutely love shopping in B&H. On a busy day, it can be a wild experience with million languages being spoken. And they have what must be the most entertaining checkout system I've ever seen: Was that my camera that just went flying over our heads?
Of course, the most fun part about B&H is that it's run by Orthodox Jews, who mostly employ (it appears) Carribeans. The mix is truly unique and somehow encouraging.
There's a similar store around here. Their quirk is during the Christmas shopping season, they open on Saturday at 6:00PM (well after sundown at this latitude).
well after sundown at this latitude
I've always wondered, what do orthodox Jews do during winter (and summer, for that matter) north of the Artic Circle, when there isn't any sundown?
Al--the usual practice is to adopt the schedule of the nearest large Jewish community. For those in Alaska, I think this means Seattle. An Orthodox Jewish astronaut would use the schedule of whatever location on earth he launched from.
Thanks for your comments. The "string" around the community is called an Eruv and you can read more about it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv.
B&H's owner is a Hasidic Jew and it was his preference that we close the site to transactions during the Sabbath. There are various interpretations of what is and is not permitted and he elected to err on the side of caution. His choice and I have to respect his commitment.
B&H, by the way, is an equal-opportunity employer and with 1,000+ employees our staff is as diverse as NYC itself. In our store, I suppose our Hasidic employees are more readily visible due to their choice of garb and hairstyle, but our staff runs the gamut.
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.
Comments closed June 23, 2007.
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Heads in the Sand
Even better than that, like most sensible people, I have a Bialetti moka pot for making cafe con leche at home.
I once needed to check their website to answer some FAQ about cleaning it. But since it was August and Bialetti is Italian, they had their entire fucking website shut down with a placeholder message saying they took vacation during August.
Understand, I'm not saying just the webstore was closed. The entire website was closed.
Come September 1st, I was able to find my answer.
Posted by Petey | June 9, 2007 5:54 PM