When I posted on Americans' increasing tolerance of interracial dating a lot of people were less happy to see that 83 percent think it's okay than baffled by the continued presence of the other 17 percent. It's a fair enough point, but Kieran Healy points out that only about 75 percent of the population agrees that the earth orbits the sun, while 18.3 percent think it's the other way 'round.
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Interracial Dating Versus Heliocentrism
06 Jun 2007 04:16 pm
Comments (54)
I assume this is largely due to a good number of that 18.3% being confused about what the question is asking, rather than actually believing the Sun orbits t he Earth.
This is why it's silly to be upset that 20 percent or something of young Muslims think suicide bombing is sometimes justified. You can get 20 percent of people to agree to anything.
Obviously the 18.3% are just well-informed about the relativity of inertial frames. Really, the sun does orbit the earth just as much as the other way around. It just happens to have the rest of the universe going along with it.
Also, on the sun/earth thing, I think a nontrivial % of respondents think it's such a dumb question, they deliberately give the wrong answer.
A good control to run would be, "what does 2 + 2 equal?"
Kepler's law states that the Earth and the Sun revolve around a mutual point dictated by their relative masses and a universal constant. Granted, as the sun is much more massive than the Earth, that point will be much closer to the sun than it is to the Earth, it is factually the case that, yes, both the Sun and the Earth revolve around each other. See http://home.cvc.org/science/kepler.htm. Honestly, do you liberal bloggers know NOTHING about astrophysics. (J/K, love the blog).
"Smart may come and smart may go but stupid goes on forever."
Interesting question: how many of those people objecting to interracial dating are african americans (or asians, or South Indians) who are concerned about the loss of their identity if intermarriage with whites takes place? Many ethnic groups are concerned about intermarriage for that reason -- absorbtion into white culture and loss of heritage.
Really, the sun does orbit the earth just as much as the other way around. It just happens to have the rest of the universe going along with it.
I see these snarky answers occasionally in blog comment threads, and dammit, it's time to put the kibosh on them.
No, the sun does not orbit the earth just as much as the other way around. The theory of general relativity does not mean "It's all relative, dude."
If one is standing on the earth, the sun appears to revolve around the earth, but just as your first grade teacher taught you, this is an optical illusion. There is no observation frame from which the sun actually revolves around the earth.
The earth and sun both revolve around a common center of gravity, but because the sun is so much more massive than the earth this center of gravity is located inside the the sun, slightly off-center. Saying that the earth goes around the sun is a factual statement even in the world post-Einstein physics.
Thus endeth the lesson.
Two unrelated facts. Considering that blacks have on average IQ scores one standard deviation lower than whites, it's likely that a disproportionate percentage of the people who think the sun revolves around the earth are black.
Considering that IQ tests are an attempt to measure cognitive ability, not to gauge ignorance, it's entirely possible that harry is an intelligent person, despite being clueless about life on planet earth.
I believe the President fits into the same category, come to think of it.
"If one is standing on the earth, the sun appears to revolve around the earth, but just as your first grade teacher taught you, this is an optical illusion. There is no observation frame from which the sun actually revolves around the earth."
What about the observational frame centered on the observer standing on earth?
sk
IP Guy,
Would it be OK if many of those who have problems with interracial dating are motivated by a fear of being absorbed into white culture, like Asians or Blacks?
If so, if we can imagine a scenario where whites would be in a position to have the same fears, then would their resistance to interracial dating then be OK, whereas it's not right now?
I'm just curious as to which motivations make it OK and which do not, since your post seemed to imply to me that the majority group has no reason to oppose interracial dating, while minorities may.
I also wonder if the situation changed one day, where the majority became the minority, would you then see it as OK for them to adopt minority concerns?
If you are standing on the earth, you are traveling in an orbit around the sun. In your observational frame, relative to you, the earth goes around the sun. Relativity isn't about what things "look like."
You might as well attempt to claim that the theory of relativity proves that David Copperfield can actually fly.
You can get 20 percent of people to agree to anything.
Or, more specifically, 27 percent. If "The Crazification Factor" isn't famous yet, then it should be. By Googling various topics of a certain genre followed by the word "poll" — the Kennedy assassination, UFOs, the moon landing, young earth creationism — you can find belief percentages ranging from the high teens to the low 30s for most. And before you attribute this to anything dumb or anti-intellectual about America, remember the results of that poll about who Muslims think is responsible for 9/11? Crazification is, sadly, pretty universal.
In fact:
Take a dumbbell. Shrink one of the two weights. Throw it up in the air, and spin it really fast.
If you are on the small end of the dumbbell (i.e. on earth), it appears that the large end is spinning around you.
If you are on the large end of the dumbbell (i.e. on the sun), it appears that the small end is spinning around you.
If you are on an airplane over the spinning dumbbell (i.e. out in space above the solar system) , it appears that the two are spinning around each other, perhaps with the small end spinning faster than the large end.
If you are on the ground off to the side (i.e. in the center of the galaxy), it also appears that the two are spinning around each other.
If you are attached to a string attached to the outside of the small end (i.e. nothing in particular) it doesn't appear that the two are moving at all.
If you are attached to a string attached to the large end (i.e. again nothing in particular) I suspect it will appear that the small end is spinning around the large end (though more slowly than some of the other perspectives), though I'm not sure.
Which answer is 'right'?
Which answer shows you are an ignorant Christian?
Which answer shows you are an educated secular humanist and would never be caught dead voting for Bush?
Sk
There is no observation frame from which the sun actually revolves around the earth.
I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I don't see it. What's wrong with an inertial frame in which you take the Earth to be standing still, and the Sun, the solar system, hell, the rest of the universe to be moving around it in various complicated ways?
Harry: I assume you're aware that Ashkenazi Jews are reputed to have especially high average IQ. Are you aware that the chabad Lubavitch sect of Hasidic Judaism teaches geocentrism?
IQ isn't everything. As they say, "smart, smart, stupid."
Interesting question: how many of those people objecting to interracial dating are african americans (or asians, or South Indians) who are concerned about the loss of their identity
If you just followed the link, you'd see that the percentage of blacks who approve of interracial dating has always been much higher than whites, and that in this survey 97% of blacks say interracial dating is ok. Lots of whites don't want their daughters dating blacks, not the other way round.
It's really amazing the lengths people will go to to close their eyes to the continuing reality of racism in the US.
lemuel pitkin,
Granted, it's traditionally been white people who have opposed interracial dating, but if you haven't seen how many Black women have been upset over it (or to a lesser degree, some Asian men) then your experience is very different than mine.
A survey that asks only the abstract question of whether or not they agree with the general statement "its all right for blacks and whites to date" may bot capture what many people would object to in particular circumstances.
Christopher M - here's the best set of explanations I know of:
http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Relativity_shows_geocentrism_is_true
Christopher:
Imagine if Earth didn't rotate. You would conclude that the Sun is at a fixed point above the Earth (ignoring that the distance to Sun actually varies in the orbit) and that the rest of the heavens rotates about the two objects.
Careful observation would disprove you because you would find that other objects like the planets orbit around the Sun in such a way that only makes sense (e.g. follows a consistent set of physical laws) if the Earth also orbits the Sun.
That's the point Disgruntled is making. Careful and casual observation are two different things.
Tom
"OK" is way too loose a term to get really meaningful data (as opposed to trend lines, which have some value). As some have pointed out, there are potential interpretations regarding minority group preservation that can quite plausibly produce the "wrong" answer in a way that has nothing to do with the historical justification for the question; similarly, it's perfectly plausible to imagine that people concerned with perceived social pressures would have no moral objections but practical concerns (e.g. "I don't care, but I read that 17% of Americans don't think it's ok, so in any given restaurant or bar or public venue you go to, almost fifth of the people are going to think you're sinning!")
As for heliocentrism, if you're really well educated, and in the mood to be hypercritical of your pollster, you can have fun with the question, but that's true of every poll I've ever seen. Polls have to be written to a USA Today standard of language comprehension, and it's more or less impossible to be absolutely precise at that level of sophistication.
Disgruntled science teacher, you're wrong. Of course there's a reference frame where the sun goes around the earth. It's the perfectly obvious one. (E.g., say I stand in one place all day, facing west, and define coordinate axes extending outward in the obvious way, up-down, north-south, east-west; in those coordinates, the sun will move in a big circle during the day.) The only thing about it is that it isn't *inertial*. It's like people who say there's "no such thing" as a centrifugal force; of course there is, and you've probably experienced them. It's just that they only exist in noninertial reference frames.
This doesn't change the fact that the people answering the poll question are probably ignorant.
The only thing about it is that it isn't *inertial*.
Did you notice the part where I was responding to a person who said "What's wrong with an inertial frame in which you take the Earth to be standing still, and the Sun, the solar system, hell, the rest of the universe to be moving around it in various complicated ways?" This is something along the lines of the proverbial "first assume a spherical cow" variety of pseudoscientific discussion. What's wrong with this frame is that it falls apart under scrutiny, just as pseudoforces such as "centrifugal force" do. An observer experiences these things in a real, meaningful way, but it is possible to falsify these explanations without leaving the reference frame. Applying general relativity to non-inertial frames is a waste of everyone's time, unless you happen to be high.
You would not believe how many 7th graders read a 7th grade-level explanation of general relativity and attempt to use it to "disprove" everything else you teach them during the course of the year. It gets under my skin. Apologies for derailing the thread.
So, just to make sure I've got it straight, It's ok for minorities to be against inter-racial dating for reasons of group preservation, but whites thinking the same thing are retrograde?
Also note that the number of people who approve of Bush is about the same as the number of people who don't know that the earth goes around the sun.
So, just to make sure I've got it straight, It's ok for minorities to be against inter-racial dating for reasons of group preservation, but whites thinking the same thing are retrograde?
No one said it was ok, but feel free to assume that's what everyone thinks anyway.
Agree with owenz that a better question is whether you think it is OK for your daughter to date someone of another race. For the record, I would be fine if my (theoretical) daughter dated someone of another race. However, if she dated someone who believed the sun orbited the earth, I would disown her.
If you are on the small end of the dumbbell (i.e. on earth), it appears that the large end is spinning around you.
If you are on the large end of the dumbbell (i.e. on the sun), it appears that the small end is spinning around you.
Actually, in this case it would appear to both as if the other were standing still, since they are attached by the bar, and relative to each other they are not moving.
These arguments are going nowhere.
When looking at polls, I've always held to the 17% rule. Basically, there will always be 17% of any given population that will say anything about anything. In a two-question poll, unanimity is therefore 83% -- anything higher and the poll is probably biased.
Thanks for the corrections/explanations. I didn't realize what the word "inertial" in the phrase "inertial reference frame" actually meant.
You can't really compare the two polls. One of them relates to factual evidence, the other to moral judgment. Using the word "belief" for both is misleading.
There's also a difference between biblical literalists who conciously refuse to believe in science, and ignorant folk who just don't pay think about stuff like this. It would be interesting to get a read on how these groups break out.
All of these 'quiz'-type polls tell me only one thing: Americans are not necessarily ignorant, they're just really, really bad at taking tests.
I am fine with my daughter dating and marrying anyone she wants as long as they are not Protestant.
Wel, to be honest, I would be a bit concerned if they were Italian.
Where does the board stand on the Conservative temples that recommend parents discourage their children from dating non-Jews to lessen the chances they marry non-Jews?
Where does the board stand on the Conservative temples that recommend parents discourage their children from dating non-Jews to lessen the chances they marry non-Jews?
Cultural preservation or bigotry?
Obviously the 18.3% are just well-informed about the relativity of inertial frames. Really, the sun does orbit the earth just as much as the other way around. It just happens to have the rest of the universe going along with it.
This is incorrect.
Circular motion is not inertial; there is no relativity of non-inertial frames.
There truly is an absolute and invariant distinction between object A orbiting object B vs. object B orbiting object A.
What do you think the percentage would look like if the question read: "would you be okay with your daughter dating someone of another race?"
I propose a series of questions:
* Do you think interracial dating is acceptable?
* Would you be okay with your daughter dating someone of another race?
* Would you be okay with your daughter dating someone of another race if the relationship was sexual?
* Would you be okay with your daughter having a sexual relationship with someone of another race if the sex was:
(A) Oral?
(B) Vaginal?
(C) Anal?
* Would you be okay with your son dating a person of another race and the same sex?
* Would you be okay with your son dating a person of another race and the same sex, if your son were:
(A) The "top"?
(B) "Versatile"?
(C) The "bottom"?
* If your son were the "bottom", would you be okay with his same-sex, different race partner videotaping their intimate relations, and putting the video on the World Wide Web?
* Would you be okay with the video being posted on the World Wide Web if the video were entitled "BIG BLACK BRUISERS IN TIGHTY WHITEY TWINKS?"
* Are you okay with knowing that such a video has in fact been made without your son's knowledge, and has already recived 38,552 hits at YouTube.com?
* Democratic candidate (SENATOR XYZ) has stated that he supports the legalization of all the above. Does this make you more or less likely to vote for (SENATOR XYZ)?
* Republican challenger (POLITICIAN ABC) opposes legislation to allow your son to date interracially as "the bottom" in a same-sex relationship, and have his humiliating reaming-out posted for the world to view on the internet. Does this make you more or less likely to vote for (POLITICIAN ABC)?
I'm pleasantly surprised only 18.3% of Americans believe in geocentrism. I've met some of these people - my second cousin's ex-wife for example. She isn't even a fundy, just an amazingly ignorant woman from trailer trash roots - and, needless to say, a big Bush supporter.
If I had a daughter, I would object to her orbiting someone of a different race. I would expect him to do the orbiting while she stood still. It's the gentlemanly thing to do.
You know what happens when you let a White dwarf orbit a Black hole -- sooner or later, they MERGE !!
As I recall there was a survey that found that around 12% of American adults believed that Joan of Arc was Noah's wife. At least this is a smaller set of people than those who believe in heliocentrism.
While the geocentric solar system isn't defensible, the geocentric universe is. I find it a far bigger deal to be the center of the universe anyway.
I personally adhere to the Andersoncentric theory of the universe. It's worked for me so far.
This may be a bit of a non sequitur, but what I find totally illogical are the sentiments, which I've seen expounded by otherwise perfectly intelligent people, that the stature or significance of humans has been diminished by the following discoveries:
-that the solar system or universe is not geocentric
-that the earth is very small relative to the size of the universe
-that humans descended from primates
Why these discoveries should have any bearing whatsoever on our self regard seems to be regarded as too obvious to even mention, but its not obvious to me, and in fact seems to me to be irrelevant.
"It's like people who say there's "no such thing" as a centrifugal force; of course there is, and you've probably experienced them. It's just that they only exist in noninertial reference frames."
while 18.3 percent think it's the other way 'round.
Presumably you agree that it would be fine if one of them was running for president. :)
About 20% think the sun revolves around the earth. About 20% think interracial dating is not OK. About 20% remain hard core supporters of Cheney.
Conclusion: same people.
"Interesting question: how many of those people objecting to interracial dating are african americans (or asians, or South Indians) who are concerned about the loss of their identity if intermarriage with whites takes place? Many ethnic groups are concerned about intermarriage for that reason."
"Where does the board stand on the Conservative temples that recommend parents discourage their children from dating non-Jews to lessen the chances they marry non-Jews?"
What's even more interesting is the racism exhibited in this thread. Substitute "white" for "african-americans" or "Jews" and see how this reads. Can whites be concerned about loss of heritage? Can whites discourage thier children from dating non-whites?
You guys are the same racist bastards that everyone wishes to see die.....the only difference is which race you hate.
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Comments closed June 20, 2007.
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Heads in the Sand
Good point.
What do you think the percentage would look like if the question read: "would you be okay with your daughter dating someone of another race?"
Posted by owenz | June 6, 2007 4:23 PM