« Only 98 Problems Left | Main | Carping » SiCKO Reviews22 Jun 2007 10:50 am Your liberal magazine roundup:
I'm trying to remember whether or not I was invited to this screening that seems to have featured 70 percent of the people I know in town. At any rate, the reviews seem to indicate that the film's main point is that US health care sucks, which is true, and that French health care is particularly nice, which is also true. Comments (29)
I was actually surprised how both Mr. Cohn and The Good Mr. Klein both made assertions that either missed the point (bone marrow transplants work! as opposed to who gets to make the decision) or were unsupported in their articles (Moore does not paint an accurate portrayal of Cuban health care!). 
Can anyone point to a good review of the French system that doesn't shy away from exposing it's warts? I want ral analysis of the good and the bad and perhaps how the US can avoid as much of the bad as possible. As far as Moore goes, I think his films hurt more than help the causes he champions as they polarize the debate. Instead of bringing people together to find solutions, he drives people away from any progress toward compromise.
As somebody who was present at several of the speaches Moore edited together into one in Bowling for Columbine, (You can see Heston's tie change color from one shot to the next!) I have to admit to being stonkered that he retains any crediblity at all. Shouldn't anybody who claims to be part of a "reality based community" care whether a documentarian has been caught at fraud?
There is a big difference between a Michael Moore film and Al Gore's documentary. Any documentary with a political agenda is going to focus on the facts that support the case they are making. But their are honest and dishonest ways to go about it. I can, in good conscience defend Al Gore b/c I think that overall the argument he makes is made in good faith. There are some simplifications of issues and obviously a focus on some of the more negative possibilities, but at the end of the day, its a fair presentation. Moore, on the other hand, is really dishonest. He has been exposed using sleight-of-hand type techniques to advance blatant falsehoods as truths. And the fact of the matter is that even if there is a lot of truth in your presentation, even if I agree with your goal, I will not support an argument made in this way. It definitely discredits the cause. I haven't heard enough about or seen SiCKO to say if that applies in this case, but based on Moore's history, I'd imagine it does. Moore is altogether too obsessed with his own celebrity and making money to be concerned with honest debate.
yeah, but remember when that lady cracked the rabbit on the head with a pipe in "Roger & Me"? that was great!
Has anyone bothered to ask himself or herself how a 24 year old (or thereabouts) blogger in Wash, DC who blogs about virtually any subject under the sun (sports, policits, economics, foreign affairs, etc) can presume to know the first thing in order to evaluate how the US healthcare system "sucks" (did you go to harvard to learn those big SAT words) and the French system is nice. I have yet to see the hordes of wealthy americans flying to france for top flight medical care. But I only work as a Dr in a major NY hospital, so what the hell would I know when matched against a blogger for the Atlantic?
I have yet to see the hordes of wealthy americans flying to france for top flight medical care. You are saying that the American health care system must be OK because wealthy Americans are content with the care they are getting? If you really are a doctor, I just hope you are a lot better at doctoring than you are at arguing.
ILP, perhaps the reason you don't see these hordes is because the US healthcare system sucks precisely for those people who aren't wealthy. Wealthy people can buy all the care they want, while the poorer (and larger) part of the population can't. Add in the perverse incentives for US insurance companies to deny care and the 40 million uninsured, and I think your result approximates "sucks". Pretty much anyone, but especially an avid reader like our host, can pick this information up from blogs and the newspaper (click on that link on the right for Ezra Klein). But, hey, I'm just 24 and you're a big doctor so what the hell do I know?
I have yet to see the hordes of wealthy americans flying to france for top flight medical care. Really? Do you also work as a check-in agent at JFK?
Dear Pseudonymous in NC, What is your point? My patients are all top earner who would care nothing about flying anywhere to get the best medical care for themselves or their families. I've never heard of anyone going to France. I work with some of the best doctors in America. We don't sit around the hospital saying "Oh shit, France has such great medical care, we're falling behind!!" Grow up. learn something. I'm calling out Yglesias and all the idiot liberal commentators (and conservatives for that matter) who comment on a wide range of issues they know nothing about. Evaluating medical care -- and hey, I have strong criticisms about the US system -- takes a certain amount of expertise. I'm not saying a journalist can't do it but you need to learn about the issues (not just quote nifty sounding methodology) and learn about how medicine is delivered in actual practice. You can't possibly learn this while blogging for a living. Your POV, if propogandistic like Moore, is unlikely to be of much worth in the real world (though you can do a whole lot of damage to the real-world politics necessary to effect change). And you certainly aren't equipped to pass judgment by making stupid jokes about my comments. but hey, I just practice medicine in NY for a living. I wouldn't go to France for medical care for any condition I know of. Lastly, if you think France delivers quality care for the "common" people, I'd like to introduce you to a year long waiting list for necessary surgery. Good job Pierre!!
My patients are all top earner who would care nothing about flying anywhere to get the best medical care for themselves or their families. Um, you just made eriks's point for him. Well done you, for working at the equivalent end of the healthcare system as those boutiques where if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it. I'm sure you're not at all obnoxious in telling people how much you earn. Lastly, if you think France delivers quality care for the "common" people, I'd like to introduce you to a year long waiting list for necessary surgery. Ah, but you don't work in France, do you? So you're obviously not qualified to comment on it by your own metric. Sorry about that.
And just to stick the boot in: Evaluating medical care -- and hey, I have strong criticisms about the US system -- takes a certain amount of expertise. I'm guessing you don't also have a degree in economics, either. Because we're really not faulting your doctoring skills (though I hope your bedside manner isn't as stroppy) but rather the way that decisions are made on whether to reimburse people who don't slap down their AmEx platinum cards at the reception desk.
Hellokkj - this is just a testing, dont worry about it
I had enjoyed staying at your site, buy my home page is cooler
Re: I'd like to introduce you to a year long waiting list for necessary surgery. These stories are generally apocryophal. Or else the "necessary" surgery turns out to be something decidedly less so, like a boob job or a face lift.
The upside of the French system is that it has no long waiting lists. None. Nada. The downside is that by European standards it costs a huge amount and the system as a whole is actually running a deficit. The upside for Americans is that the French system, including deficits costs much less than the American one, so you could fund a French system that performed even better than the French and still have some spare change over to buy body armour for your guys in Iraq. The real kicker is that while ILP doesn't want to talk about it, plenty of wealthy people in the US get cutting edge treatment from *foreign doctors*, it just so happens that they can afford to have the doctor travel to them, instead of vice versa.
People in the US have to wait to see a doctor all the time. It takes forever to get an appointment these days, especially with a specialist.
I do not have any real insight or knowledge of our health care system other then my basic health care plan. I do not know who's making all the money or who's loosing money, but what I do know is that millions of US children are not covered for basic services. We are the richest nation in the world. We even build bridge to no where. We give billions of dollars in tax breaks to companies who make tens of billions in profit. We fund research on how much a cows fart but we can not give children health care? What the &%$@ is going on?
I think the biggest principal everyone is missing is that we are trusting close to 600 people to take care of roughly 301 million. That's about 502,000 people per person to take care of. We complain about too much government control but when we have a problem who do we go running to. No one seems to see the similarities between us and rome, and everybody thinks this is still a democracy. Liberals say conservitives are racist money hungry pigs and conservitives say liberals are socialist morons who believe in instant gratification. Who really cares. The truth is, we don't get to choose who becomes president, he doesn't have as much power as we think he does, we're not the richest country in the world, (our average person is; but the country isn't as a whole) our military is a disaster (I know from two tours in Iraq; I used to see convoys drive in every day with the gunner on the top crouched down and sleeping and often the convoy commander was asleep and letting some e-2 do his job).... I could go on forever. But are you gonna continue to pretend your real job is a doctor and gloat your superior knowledge as a pro blogger, knowing all the while you're 50 to 100 lbs. overweight from all the years of eating bologna and hot pockets while you blog your lies and fake credentials. Your all idiots. You empty cans rattle the most. But remember...youre empty and your cries go unheard and uncared for.
... and that French health care is particularly nice, which is also true. This would be the same French health care system whose funding is chronically in deficit and that a French government commissioned report described as overburdened, wasteful, and in urgent need of reform, right? That "particularly nice" French health care system?
Michael Moore is a propagandist, plain and simple. If he were working for the government or for a company where he was required to present information so that one could make a policy decision, he would have been fired long ago for being incompetent (probably not from the government though). I would NEVER make a decision based on anything Michael Moore presents. As for France, It is not all free. A fundamental principle of healthcare funding in France is the element of personal contribution so the state does not cover all a person’s medical charges. To make up the difference between what the state pays and the cost of treatment, most French residents take out an insurance policy to cover the difference (complement). This is called a police complémentaire or mutuelle. This is because the French healthcare system is having a serious budget deficit problem. They don’t even have a large military budget and yet they still can’t fund their healthcare system. Let us also not forget the 15,000 French who died during their 2003 heat wave where many were left to die daily with astonishing frequency in crowded hospital rooms and lobbies. Anyone proposing universal healthcare run by the government should really have their head examined. We complain all the time about our government being incompetent. Do we really want to extend that incompetence to the entire healthcare system? I don't know what the U.S. healthcare fix is, but I do know that France's (better than most), Canada's, and expecially Cuba's healthcare systems are not as rosy as Moore would like to mislead people to believe.
I am an American who just went on a trip to Russia this summer. My wife & I visited the 'best' hospital in this large city to confirm results by a Las Vegas hospital I had visited previous to the trip. I paid cash in Russia & they had the same equipment or better then Las Vegas Municipal hospital. Results for different tests all were virtually identical. Las Vegas bill was over $3000 Las Vegas I had to wait forever. Russia it was practically in & out with very educated doctors. Don't think it is a third world it is far from it & the oil economy makes sure they have the best of everything. Americans have been brainwashed & don't understand reality anymore.
I just saw the movie yesterday and thought it was one of the most powerful documentaries I have seen this decade. I am one of those who is falling through the cracks. I was a healthy 52 yr. old who got injured at work and the WC insurance company refused me an MRI and tried to duck out of it's responsibility. Because of the injury, I've been on part-time and therefore lost my health insurance. When I could no longer perform my job due to the injury without physical therapy, I had to take them to court to even TREAT me and by then the damage was extensive. They have denied me every chance they get, their lawyers are NASTY people and their sole reason to deny you is to save their company money by exempting you from the money you put into WC FOR injuries or accidents. This movie resonates with me because of those issues. I recently moved out of state and have to take them back to court because they have refused to get me a doctor here. My job search is now limited because of my injury and I have NO RECOURSE with them. Whether Moore is outrageous as a provacateur, his message is driven home well (even if you don't like the vehicle he delivers it in.)Kudos to Moore.
hi there, i just came across this site while looking for sicko reviews to see what others thought of it.it's always tough for me to watch michael moore movies because he'll take a side of an issue that i agree with and make a 'documentary' with so much propoganda, lies, editing, and omitting truths that it angers me.the american health care system is in big trouble.this is very apparent, and an effective, truthful documentary should have been made.one of my biggest problems with moore is that all of his movies lay some kind of blame in corporations who blindside people while reeling in huge profits.i agree that quite often that blame is directed properly, however,i also feel that the whole of moore's work is to blindside people all the while reeling in huge profits.it amuses me that he never sees those parallels.i guess if it gets people at least thinking about the issue it's a good thing though....as a canadian i feel more than lucky for the opportunities i get with our health care system.again though, i wish he didn't have to lie so much about it.while we are leaps and bounds ahead of the american system, we do have many faults.i'm not sure which 'busy' emerg waiting room he was in, but in most canadian cities you can expect to wait around 8 hours for emergency care, and many months for necessary procedures.not procedures like 'boob jobs' as someone commented about the french system earlier, but things like cancer treatments, organ replacements, etc. and if you are rich here, you most definitely jump the line.
I'm not a bleeding heart liberal, and in general I tend to lean to the right rather than left for most issues regarding government controls. I also feel that in general Michael Moore paints a very unbalanced picture in an attempt to satisfy both humor and agenda in all of his previous film works.
Hellopde - this is just a testing, dont worry about it
I had enjoyed staying at your site, buy my home page is cooler
I saw Sicko today and I was impressed to see how patients fared inCanada, France, and Cuba and England. I know that the tax rate in those countries is quite high also...much higher than ours. However, our health system is overpriced and needs some adjustment based on family income...somewhat like college scholarships are based on the family's income. But Moore does raise the question....if we have money for war, why not money for health care and education ????
Comments closed July 06, 2007. |
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Heads in the Sand
Is the documentary starting to come into its own as a force for social change? I know its been around and a while and some have had more impact than others, but with 'An Inconvenient Truth' doing so well, and with 'SiCKO' coming out as a mass marketed product are documentaries getting the level of 'The Jungle'? Moore and Sinclair have some definite parallels.
Dunno, just a thought.
Posted by crack | June 22, 2007 11:16 AM