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Stirring Up Trouble

20 Jun 2007 08:51 am

Jason Zengerle on Iran:

I, like everyone in theory, want to accomplish Iran's disarmament by peaceful means. And, although I'm not as convinced as Erza, I'm beginning to be persuaded by the case that a U.S.-led attack on Iran could have more dire consequences than a nuclear Iran. But I think it's crazy to take the use of force off the table--and it's unfair to accuse those who refuse to do so as warmongers, as Ezra does. Without the threat of force looming in the background, I don't think the diplomatic approach has much of a prayer. Carrots, sticks, etc.

I fear there's a risk of a looming consensus somewhere in this neighborhood, so it's worth asking what the content of a preference for achieving "Iran's disarmament" by peaceful means is, thus kicking off a long post on Iran:

Iran, of course, doesn't actually have nuclear weapons, so presumably disarmament as such isn't what we're talking about here. We're talking instead about some kind of verifiable safeguards around the Iranian nuclear program that would give the international community generally, and the United States in particular, assurance that Iran won't build a nuclear weapon. There is, however, considerable vagueness around what this means. At least some elements of the US and Israeli governments have defined the end point they're seeking to avoid as not an Iranian bomb, but the "point of no return":

At a briefing with Israeli journalists following her speech, Livni told The Jerusalem Post that Iran was less than two years away from reaching the point where it could enrich uranium, what she, and others, have termed "the point of no return" where Iran would need no outside technical or material assistance to produce nuclear weapons. The point of no return, in Israel's case, is not when Iran "gets the bomb", but when it has reached the capability of producing one.

This amounts to a materially different demand than would a proposal that would allow Iran to demonstrate mastery of the relevant technical issues (something many countries have done) but involve assurances that no weapons are actually being produced.

Similarly, whatever it is one is trying to persuade Iran to do, there's a difference between saying you want to persuade Iran "through diplomacy" -- i.e., asking Iran to do it and making some kind of threat if they don't do it -- and saying you want to persuade Iran through a combination of threats and inducements. And if you're willing to contemplate inducements, then which inducements? A lot of people wouldn't be comfortable lifting sanctions on Iran even in the face of an acceptable resolution of the nuclear issue as long as Iran continued funding Hezbollah, etc., etc.

There are a lot of thorny issues in this neighborhood that aren't totally reducible to the question of whether or not force should, in some sense, be "on the table." To me, an Iran policy that centers around threats and unrealistic demands ("abandon your nuclear program or we'll get foreigners to sanction you and, failing that, bomb you; also we'll lift our existing sanctions when you become a democracy that loves Israel") amounts to a kind of warmongering (to use an admittedly loaded term) no matter how much its coupled with protestations of preference for a diplomatic solution.

Most people, I assume, don't actually have detailed views on all of these issues. I endorse this from Flynt Leverett , this from Barry Posen, and this from Justin Logan as my key policy planks on Iran issues. As far as the whole "seriousness" meta-debate that Ezra kicked off my main takeaway is that this is a, well, serious issue and that insofar as people are inclined to poke folks to their left in the eye over Iran they should be prepared to delve into the intricacies of it and not simply assume that one's level of concern about the issue is directly proportional to one's proclivity to use military force as a means of resolving it.

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Comments (38)

So far, it seems to me that the use of military force on Iran would solve no issues in the real world, not even on the possible future nuclear armament of Iran, and stands in fact a high chance of increasing regional disaster, and thus increasing the actual threats to the U.S., to nearby nations, including Israel.

On the other hand, advocating the use of military force against Iran appears to have a psychologically calming effect on many thinkers, so there's that.

We should nuke them all. Make Iran(q) Cradle of Death.

>> At a briefing with Israeli journalists following
>> her speech, Livni told The Jerusalem Post that
>> Iran was less than two years away from reaching
>> the point where it could enrich uranium, what
>> she, and others, have termed "the point of no
>> return"

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe Iran has signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty and has the right under that treaty to enrich uranium (although not to divert it to military use). Whereas Israel has _not_ signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty and yet has either enriched uranium or manufactured plutonium and has actually built atomic weapons.

What am I missing?

Cranky

There is a technical issue that allows for a natural calming process. There is no point whatsoever to military action until Iran installs the bulk of its centrifuges in Natanz. I don't think they will install them unless they are sure that they will survive. The level of protection of their bunker is not a certainty.

This uncertainty offers great incentive for negotiations. Once the centrifuges are all in the bunker, they can be destroyed, or it can be demonstrated that they can not be destroyed. At that point no one will negotiate seriously.

It will prove quite impossible to persuade Iran to
give up nuclear weapons development without
credible security guarantees from both Israel and the US
that Iran won't be attacked. Neither the US or Israel has given
the faintest sign of willingness to give such guarantees.

After all Saddam
1) gave up WMD development and then
2) was invaded.

I have not seen any proposals to Iran that seem to have
any great benefit for the Iranian regime. Failing that what is
the point? It's always good to try and see things from the
other guy's point of view.

Nick Patterson

There is a simple military option that will keep Iran from developing nuclear weapons that doesn't involve blowing things up or killing people.

Send in a single F-117 Stealth fighter on a night mission to drop a load of carbon filaments over the power lines that lead to the complex where the uranium is enriched. The filaments short-circuit the lines, cutting the power off. No power, no enrichment. No enrichment, no uranium. No uranium, no bomb.

And when the Iranians get the power up and running again? Just repeat the mission.

This is not some science-fiction idea: during the bombing campaign against Serbia, we disabled the entire power grid using this tactic.

I think the important issue is that serious people don't say something like this:

But I think it's crazy to take the use of force off the table--and it's unfair to accuse those who refuse to do so as warmongers, as Ezra does.

That might be nice if we had a rational Administration. But for 17 more months we have a powerful Vice President who's agitating for war on Iran. (No, Jason, not everyone wants peaceful disarmament.)

In the run-up to the war on Iraq Bush showed himself to be more committed to war than to using the threat of war to accomplish our goals. It's crazy -- doing the same thing and expecting different results -- to think that we can support the threat of the use of force with the Bush Administration without getting actual war. Zengerle hasn't learned a fucking thing from Iraq.

"Correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe Iran has signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty and has the right under that treaty to enrich uranium (although not to divert it to military use). Whereas Israel has _not_ signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty and yet has either enriched uranium or manufactured plutonium and has actually built atomic weapons."

Being a non-signatory nation means Israel can do what they want with regard to nuclear weapons, but signatory nations may not aid Israel even in development of nuclear energy. Iran, as a signatory nation is allowed to receive assistance in development of nuclear power, but is not allowed to develop nuclear weapons.

Sort of seconding Weiner. What exactly is it supposed to mean to "take force off the table"? If we have the capabilities, it's not off the table. So an unwillingness to say or even consider the words "take force off the table" suggests a uncomfortable willingness to actually use force. Which is more or less what got us in the present mess. As someone from TNR might remember.

At a more basic level, you should never threaten to use military force unless you're willing to back it up. You can't reap the benefits of the threat of force unless you're ultimately willing to use force.

Send in a single F-117 Stealth fighter on a night mission to drop a load of carbon filaments over the power lines that lead to the complex where the uranium is enriched.

So where's this complex located, and what's to stop the Iranians from (i) sending the power lines in underground or (ii) using power from self contained sources, like diesel generators or reactors?

Also seconding Weiner.

In this administration, leaving all options on the table means all options except actually sitting down with them to work out our differences.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe Iran has signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty and has the right under that treaty to enrich uranium (although not to divert it to military use). Whereas Israel has _not_ signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty and yet has either enriched uranium or manufactured plutonium and has actually built atomic weapons.

What am I missing?

"IOKIYAJ," that's what.

Fuck off, moron.

BP -

Uranium enrichment requires enormous amounts of electricity. To give you some idea of how much: in 1944, at the height of WWII and as the industrial war-machine in this country was cranked up to 11, one-sixth of all the electricity in the entire United States was going to a single uranium enrichment plant in Oak Ridge, TN. During peak operation, the entire state of Tennessee experienced brownouts. So we're talking the entire electrical production of several hydroelectric dams.

So: (1) This tells you where the complex is located: look for the site where all the power lines are leading (it's a trivial matter to confirm that you have the right place: just send over a drone with a gamma ray detector); (2) Do you know how much time and effort it would take to put a huge grid entirely underground? If the plant is relying on multiple dams, the lines will likely extend over several dozen miles of rocky, mountainous terrain. It's simply not a practical proposition; (3) diesel generators would be woefully inadequate as a power source; (4) this is precisely what Iran wants a 'civilian' nuclear reactor for - to power an enrichment plant. Hence we should not even give Iran the technology and materials it wants for a 'peaceful, civilian' reactor.

I agree with some of the folks above. A single bunker buster, aimed at Dimona, will solve a slew of problems. Until and unless the IDF gives up their hundreds of nukes we really shouldn't take anything (sanctions, blockcades, boycotts, or military force) off the table. The threat of terror and mayhem these nukes represent is intolerable, and hopefully the international community will take action to stop this growing threat to peace in the Middle East. Disarming this nuclear threat by peaceful means is certainly preferrable to the use of force, but rogue nuclear powers really do need to be dealt with.

Any unilateral American military action against Iran would be illegal under US and international law, like the invasion and occupation of Iraq was.

The UN Charter only allows military action for self defense or when approved by the Security Council. The UN Charter is a treaty, and treaties are the supreme law of the land according to the Constitution.

Re "After all Saddam
1) gave up WMD development and then
2) was invaded. "
-------
Er..FULL story is:

1) Saddam gave up WMD development and then
2) was invaded and then
3) was turned over to a mob to be lynched.

Oak Ridge used gaseous diffusion to seperate the isotpoes. It requires much more energy than the gas-centrifuge method the Iranians plan to employ. IN fact, we know where the enrichment facilities are going to be(Natanz). Most modern Iranian construction uses buried power lines. The sensitivity to disturbances of the centrifuges makes it unthinkable that the facility would be designed without the capacity to run for days on locally generated power, though the primary sources of power would be elsewhere.

Re "Being a non-signatory nation means Israel can do what they want with regard to nuclear weapons, but signatory nations may not aid Israel even in development of nuclear energy. Iran, as a signatory nation is allowed to receive assistance in development of nuclear power, but is not allowed to develop nuclear weapons."
---------
Uh .. but can't Iran simply drop out of the Nonprolif treaty? The way George Bush did with the ABM Treaty?

Doesn't the Nonprolif treaty include a pledge from the USA to reduce and eventually destroy all of its nukes? So when did that happen?

IF the US government allows Israel to pose a nuclear threat to the countries of the Middle East, should it be surprised that those countries move to acquire a deterrent?

ibrahim,
i think you are getting ahead of yourself. the IDF's airforce has to be taken out first, likely with sea launched cruise missiles. we are also going to need targeting teams in-country to paint the targets. so the big question is does the US intelligence community and military have enough hebrew speakers?

Kind of wirh Weiner and SCMT, and adding something based on what I recall our host here saying a while back: there's only any harm at all in taking force off the table if it's credible that the force you threaten might actually eventuate. It's credible that the force might eventuate if either your counterparty thinks that there are some circumstances under which force objectively becomes your least bad option (incl. status quo as an option) OR if your counterparty thinks that force will never actually be your best option but that you might mistakenly think it is.

There's also a distinct issue of how to credibly take force off the table, if that is what you want to do.

What I draw from this is that if I were an actual government negotiator, I'd be against this table-clearing right now. But, back to Weiner and SCMT's point, that's obviously not where I am. Instead, constraining the option of our evil and inept administration is of utmostimportant, so if I were me or most highly placed Democrats, I'd be fine advocating for taking force off the table.

"Uh .. but can't Iran simply drop out of the Nonprolif treaty? The way George Bush did with the ABM Treaty?"

The ABM treaty had provisions within it that allow for withdrawl. The nature of the nonproliferation treaty is such that provisions for withdrawl make no sense. I doubt they exist, but I don't know for sure.

While the NPT does call for nuclear disarmament, it is far less specific and rigorous in its language. Arguably, the US has complied with the request to negotiate in good faith treaties that would bring about reductions of nuclear weapons. The US has reduced its arsenal from about 30,000 weapons to about 10,000, along with Russia.

Apologies for a rambling comment, coffee hasn't kicked in yet.

Oak Ridge used gaseous diffusion to seperate the isotpoes. It requires much more energy than the gas-centrifuge method the Iranians plan to employ. IN fact, we know where the enrichment facilities are going to be(Natanz). Most modern Iranian construction uses buried power lines.

Hey, look! Someone who knows what he's talking about!

how do you invade a Saddam?

Re "Arguably, the US has complied with the request to negotiate in good faith treaties that would bring about reductions of nuclear weapons. The US has reduced its arsenal from about 30,000 weapons to about 10,000"
------
I was following the argument up to this point, whereupon I collapsed into helpless laughter.

The Treaty requires good faith negotiations for disarmment, not just reductions.

The US government has wiped its behind with the Nonprolif Treaty in various other ways -- most obviously, by giving nuclear weapons to NATO partners.

Plus, my understanding is that a signatory to the Treaty can withdraw with 3 months notice.

amounts to a kind of warmongering (to use an admittedly loaded term)

I think the expression should be 'attempting to terrorize them into submission'. Key word is terrorize, since the people who want to go to war with Iran think they have a moral right to do so based on Hezbollah, AND because of how likely it is to work, given how well that has worked against the US.

m, 'war on terror? war of terror? I forget. Who cares, anyways?'

"Plus, my understanding is that a signatory to the Treaty can withdraw with 3 months notice."

True, but it is not an unfettered right.

"Each Party shall in exercising its national sovereignty have the right to withdraw from the Treaty if it decides that extraordinary events, related to the subject matter of this Treaty, have jeopardized the supreme interests of its country. It shall give notice of such withdrawal to all other Parties to the Treaty and to the United Nations Security Council three months in advance. Such notice shall include a statement of the extraordinary events it regards as having jeopardized its supreme interests. [Article X.1, the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons]"

If Iran felt that it would be invaded by a militarily superior foe without a nuclear deterrent, that would be grounds for withdrawal. I don't think they are quite at that point, though they might make a good argument.

However, if their argument is that fear of nuclear reprisals from Israel cut into their efforts to spread instability and terrorism throughout the middle-east, that isn't good enough.

BTW, Russia put a stop to nuclear disarmament, not the US. In addition, I think the UK is the only other nation to shrink its arsenal. France reduced its number of warheads while significantly upgrading capability. The other nuclear powers all increased their stocks.

"Correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe Iran has signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty and has the right under that treaty to enrich uranium (although not to divert it to military use). Whereas Israel has _not_ signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty and yet has either enriched uranium or manufactured plutonium and has actually built atomic weapons.
What am I missing?
Cranky"

Iran's leader/sock-puppet of the unelected mullahs said Israel should be wiped off the map. (pace Juan Cole)

Israel has never threatened Iran in such a way.

An attack on Iran would be a disaster. Your average Iranian likes America and an attack would change that for a long time.

We need positive changes to come from the inside, "organically." A democratic Iraq next door will help. It should also help that we knocked out two of their neighboring violent, aggressive arch-enemies: Saddam and the Taliban.

Basically the choice is between bad and bad. A Hobson's choice. It's like arguing over who was worse during WWII the Nazis or Stalin's Russia? Well, I'd say the Nazis - for one, Stalin was our ally - but they were both really bad obviously.

Oh yeah, and it didn't help the cause that we broke the Non-prolif. treaty by giving technology to India even though India is a semi-democratic ally and trading partner and Iran is a theocracy.


An NPT signatory has to give a reason for withdrawing, but the other parties cannot veto the withdrawal even though they disagree with the reason. Thus the provision is a formality, not a real restriction.


Njorl:

The nature of the nonproliferation treaty is such that provisions for withdrawl make no sense. I doubt they exist, but I don't know for sure.

I can see why you didn't try to find out, after I discovered how hard it is. I had to google 'nuclear non-proliferation treaty', click on the third link, and search the resulting page for 'withdraw'. I can't imagine how many keystrokes that took!

http://www.un.org/events/npt2005/npttreaty.html

@lampwick - Alert the Pentagon! I'm sure they never thought of that.

A conundrum to be sure. We think Iran wants to develop nuclear weapons because we have noticed that we tend to attack countries that don't have nuclear weapons. The one thing we seem to be agreed upon is that we have no ability to change our own behavior.

The mature thing for the Iranians to do would be to just ignore us, and I'm pretty sure they've had lots of practice at that. Obviously the Cheney wing is trying to get "under their skin" and provoke some kind of problem that will give Halliburton another 100 billion in logistical supply contracts.

If any of these democracy enthusiasts really wanted to promote democracy, they could start right here in the US by making it easier to register to vote. Having disposed of that possibility for their motives by using the evidence at hand, we can proceed to hypothesis B- we are ruled by psychopathic killers who intend to siphon a trillion dollars from the US Treasury into their Swiss bank accounts and let the taxpayers of the future take care of the mess.

Right under our noses. Yeah, we're a real inspiration to the world.

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/norouzi.php?articleid=11025

Arash Norouzi

'Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made.'

'On Tuesday, October 25th, 2005 at the Ministry of Interior conference hall in Tehran, newly elected Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad delivered a speech at a program, reportedly attended by thousands, titled "The World Without Zionism."'

'To quote his exact words in Farsi:

"Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."'

'The Persian word for map, "nagsheh" is not contained anywhere in his original Farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said.'

'The full quote translated directly to English:

'"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."

'Word by word translation:

'Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).'

“Oh yeah, and it didn't help the cause that we broke the Non-prolif. treaty by giving technology to India even though India is a semi-democratic ally and trading partner and Iran is a theocracy...”. Peter K

That seems factually incorrect. India (like Israel) did not sign the non-proliferation treaty so how could dealing with India break the treaty. Also don’t know what you mean by semi-democratic?

It's true that the Iranians have the right under the Non-Proliferation treaty to enrice uranium for peaceful purposes, and it's also true that the US has an obligation under the treaty to take steps towards nuclear disarmament.
But more important than that obligation, is the fact that the NPT is essetially an agreement between non-nuclear countries that they will forgo nuclear weapons, in return for nuclear countries committing to not using nuclear weapons on the non-nuclear ones.
And the US will not give any such assurances - a clear breach of the NPT.

"I can see why you didn't try to find out, after I discovered how hard it is. I had to google 'nuclear non-proliferation treaty', click on the third link, and search the resulting page for 'withdraw'. I can't imagine how many keystrokes that took!"

More than zero. Which is why I finished what I was writing, acknowleded the possibility of error, then checked my facts shortly thereafter and posted my error before you even got around to being snarky with me.


Comments closed July 04, 2007.

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