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By The Numbers

22 Jul 2007 10:41 am

I don't really know what to say about the controversy various rightwing bloggers and The Weekly Standard are trying to gin up over this TNR diarist article attributed to a soldiers currently serving in Iraq publishing under a pseudonym. Obviously, it's not beyond the realm of the conceivable that The New Republic would be taken in by a fabulist or else that they would just decide to publish slanders against other people, calling them anti-semites or Nazi collaborators or whatnot.

That said, the specific contentions being made against the piece (most of them can be found by scrolling around the Standard's blog) are pretty unconvincing. You have a bunch of nitpicking about the technical details of some of the hardware described, plus some Army public affairs people denying that anything improper would happen in Iraq, plus a lot of huffing and puffing. On the other side, TNR says their editors have spoken to other soldiers who witnessed the key events, and they corroborate the story.

On some level, this is a simple numbers game. If you had any group of people where 95 percent of them behaved extremely well all the time, you'd call that a very upstanding group of people. But if that was a group of 150,000 people, that would still leave you with 7,500 bad apples. Military officers will tell you that they, like supervisors everywhere, probably spend 95 percent of their time worrying about just 5 percent of their subordinates -- the troublemakers. And say they generally do a good job of it, and on any given day 95 percent of the 7,500 bad apples are still perfectly in check. Well, that's still 375 heavily armed people in a strange country far from home where they don't speak the language and are regularly subjected to stressful, dangerous conditions.

And this situation persists for seven days a week, fifty-two weeks a year, for over four years. Under the circumstances, it would be shocking if there weren't random acts of cruelty happening in Iraq. Understanding this is crucial to understanding military strategy -- in particular, a strategy that depends on every single soldiers doing the right thing all the time is very unlikely to succeed; you just can't make plans grounded on the premise that you have hundreds of thousands of completely perfect people at your disposal. If Bill Kristol really wants to take the view that all soldiers are flawless and anyone who says otherwise is a traitor, that explains a lot about Kristol's inability to every reach the correct conclusions about any substantive national security issues.

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Comments (74)

All that matters is that they can convince themselves that everything is OK. You'd be amazed how much information the wingnuts claim is false.

I havbe no idea what you are writing about, since I will not subscribe to the New Republic or read right wing lunatics. Please give me the least discernible clue.

Is this the sort of account your are talking about?

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20070730&s=hedges

July 30, 2007

The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness
By CHRIS HEDGES & LAILA AL-ARIAN

It is despicable that you introduce objectivity and that too by means of third grade arithmetic in such a lofty argument by intellectual and uberpatriotic giants.

Yeah, sure, 95%. I remember in Oliver Stone's Platoon about half of them behaved like decent people and the other half turned rapists and murderers. And those were draftees, a more or less random slice of the general population.

This time around they are all volunteers, one should certainly expect a higher percentage of psychos and people prone to violence.

"some Army public affairs people denying that anything improper would happen in Iraq."

This is like a hearing a teenage boy deny ever masturbating.

"This time around they are all volunteers, one should certainly expect a higher percentage of psychos and people prone to violence."

Hard to say. A sociopath my dad used to work for served in Vietnam. He mentioned that a lot of the guys he served with would be in prison or dead in normal American life because they seemed to be crazy and violent. Coming from him (a guy who almost went to prison himself for white collar crime) that says something. Does that mean that today's military is less crazy? Hard to tell, the logic you use here makes sense, but it would also makes sense that draftees would be militarily less prepared for combat and more prone to going crazy My Lai-style.

Bill Kristol says that all American soldiers are perfect and that anyone who disagrees is a traitor not because he believes it but because he will say anything to support the Administration and discredit its critics. Mr. Kristol left truth behind a long time ago.

Reality Man - well, perhaps a draftee would be more likely to snap and go crazy once in a while, but I think a volunteer professional has gotta be more cruel and violent in a systematic way.

You know, the way human beings evolved, a certain percent of the population in any society are always a bunch of psychos who are unable to feel any empathy for fellow humans; that's just how it is. I suppose many of these individuals end up being criminals, politicians and corporate CEOs, but I suspect the military would provide a natural environment for them as well.

Aren't we long past the time that we should even care what Bill Kristol says or believes? Someone should have stuck a fork in him years ago. I can't believe you give him publicity and links here, Matt. Quoting him here is as useful as quoting Jerry Falwell.

abb1: Yes, everything in Oliver Stone's movies is true, right down to the demographics.

The piece allegedly reveals "disturbing patterns of behavior by American troops in Iraq"--indeed, it claims that the war has "led many troops to declare an open war on all Iraqis." Needless to say, the anecdotal evidence in the article comes nowhere close to supporting this claim. There are a few instances of out-of-control behavior, some routine fog-of-war and brutality-of-war incidents, and much that is simply trivial. The picture is unpleasant, as one would expect--but it comes nowhere close to living up to the authors' billing: "The war the vets described is a dark and even depraved enterprise."

If you've read that and think what's going on is "routine fog-of-war and brutality-of-war" and you are ok with everything the problem isn't that you think the soldiers are perfect it's that you are a depraved, amoral, asshole.

Max, I watched the movie and it didn't strike me as implausible; what else should I go by - the official government propaganda? Did you watch the movie?

Actually, abb1, when I read the "platoon" thing the first thing I thought of was this:

DIETL: No, I have a problem because things have changed, Hassan. We have to -- lookit: a bunch of Irish guys are not going to get on a plane now and blow themselves up or put themselves into buildings.

The fact of the matter is -- I mean, you don't watch 24 on Fox TV? They're out there. They're out there. There are cells out there. We have to protect ourselves against it, as Americans, and you know something, if you're on a plane with me, Hassan, and you're sitting next to me, you'll be looked at a little careful -- more carefully than me. That's the facts of life. That's what we're living with today. I'm sorry to say, 9-11 changed our whole life.

botched my formatting, everything there was Dietl.

Well, that's still 375 heavily armed people in a strange country far from home where they don't speak the language and are regularly subjected to stressful, dangerous conditions.

...and who don't have access to sex, drugs and alcohol to help alleviate that burden, unlike in Vietnam, the last similar situation our armed forces face. The MSM is unlikely to address that angle, but it's important.

I suspect the military would provide a natural environment for them as well.

In other words, you are just talking out of your ass and have no real clue. I have been in the military for more than 19 years and can tell you that I have not seen that people are any more or less prone to being psychotic assholes. In fact, the crazy ones tend to get weeded out fairly quickly because they are liabilities.

who don't have access to sex, drugs and alcohol to help alleviate that burden, unlike in Vietnam, the last similar situation our armed forces face.

Never underestimate the value of the "long haired dictionary", I.E. the local girlfriend. If there is one thing that motivates the serviceman to understand the language and the culture of the country that he is in, its the opporitunity to knock off a bit of ass once in a while. I seriously contend that this is the number one barrier to the Army in establishing any sort of rapport with the Iraqi people. If the average guy over there got a little punani once in a while, I think they would be more inclined to look more sympathetically at Iraqis as people.

If the average guy over there got a little punani once in a while, I think they would be more inclined to look more sympathetically at Iraqis as people.

There were a myriad of reasons behind the 1920 revolt against the British in Iraq but the flashpoint was a British soldier holding hands with an Iraqi woman. Just a thought.

Quite a disgusting person, aren't you, Cali?

If Bill Kristol really wants to take the view that all soldiers are flawless and anyone who says otherwise is a traitor, that explains a lot about Kristol's inability to every reach the correct conclusions about any substantive national security issues.

Alan Vanneman has it about right. Kristol is actually a fairly smart guy, and he knows he's just playing a conventional role here: the dime-a-dozen lying cocksucker hack, working dutifully to revive the war by fellating the sagging patriotic steel.

This particular play in game is part of every war: some soldiers do some very bad things; some people circulate reports about some of those bad things; propagandists for the war then attempt to rally the public by denouncing the reporters-of-bad-things and throwing them off a cliff. Sentimental patriots everywhere are satisfied that the honor of the brave fighting men has been defended, even the the honor of the dishonorable fighting men.

Underneath the squabbling about the particular war at hand is a seemingly more eternal argument about war in general. On one side are those who say war is at bottom a dangerous and unhealthy thing, a topsy-turvy carnival of mayhem that brings out the latent sadism, cruelty, life-hatred and recklessness in large numbers of ordinary people. On the other side are those who think war is the health of the state, the natural expression of the moral confidence and solidarity of a vibrant society, and that only cowards and traitors think otherwise.

Nobody ever seems to win this debate.

I hate to be crude, but as Bill Maher says, "We've got 100,000 horny soldiers in a country with no pussy." It makes a big difference.

Jennifer, aside from some somewhat vulgar language, what was "disgusting" about cali's comment? I think he's got a point -- if you're trying to date the local women, it's going to make you learn and care a bit more about the culture.

Quite a disgusting person, aren't you, Cali?
No, just a keen observer of human behavior.

Ed Marshall's point pretty clearly trumps Calipygian's, though. The idea that the top obstacle preventing American soldiers from treating the Iraqis as people is that they can't "bang Iraqi chicks" or whatever is pretty fucking stupid.

There were a myriad of reasons behind the 1920 revolt against the British in Iraq but the flashpoint was a British soldier holding hands with an Iraqi woman. Just a thought.

My point exactly. Its not that I am advocating revoking rules against fraternization. That would be, in my humble opinion, disasterous. What I AM trying to say is that there is no reason for the average soldier over there now NOT to treat every single Iraqi over the age of five as a potential enemy. Much of that has to do with the inability to learn Arabic and the local culture, which would humanize the population for many. And the best way to teach a poor, horney bastard the language and culture is via the Long Haired Dictionary. Which, for the reason you demostrate, is just not feasible.

Degenerate disgusting sexist discussion is obviously in order, to show the kind of people we really are. I get it. Let's all degrade women now. Great fun.

Barbar - ever been in the military? Ever been stationed overseas? If you had, then you would know that the "can't bang Iraqi chicks" argument is pretty important.

Jennifer, you're still not saying why you think calipygian's comments are so awful. It's not self-evident, at least to me.

Hey, there, how many American bombing raids have killed how many Iraqis, like yesterday? I guess holding hands would solve that pretty quick. I guess. Now, back to degrading women for America.

TMS, to a sexist moron who would expect anything to be evident. Could be though it's just us being where we have no right to be and insanely occupying another country.

Degenerate disgusting sexist discussion is obviously in order, to show the kind of people we really are. I get it. Let's all degrade women now. Great fun.

Degrading or not, the fact of the matter is that young men want sex, particularly over the course of a long tour of duty. The fact that it is so difficult, dangerous and potentially damaging to counterinsurgency efforts for soldiers to have sex in a Muslim nation is a big deal. It really does make a difference to our efforts there.

Then leave Iraq. Can you think even to there? I suppose not.

Jennifer - The fact is that we are there. And we are staying there as long as Cheney is in charge. We aren't going to clap our hands and turn a pile of shit into a pony. That is little better than Bill Kristol going on the TV and telling us all that we are winning and will win if only the Democrat (sic) Congress had the balls. I want to leave, the sooner the better. But it is not going to happen. And we have deal with it.

Bill Kristol wrote in his Weekly Standard article:


But what is revealing about this mistake is that the editors must have wanted to suspend their disbelief in tales of gross misconduct by American troops.

In writing this Kristol knew that he was lying.


The latest tale of gross misconduct came to us on Friday with the sentencing of Cpl. Trent Thomas to a bad conduct discharge and reduced pay rather than the 15 years sought by the prosecutor.

Thomas, of Madison, Ill., was among seven Marines and a Navy corpsman accused of snatching 52-year-old Hashim Ibrahim Awad from his house, marching him to a nearby ditch and shooting him after they botched an attempt to capture a suspected insurgent.

This tale of gross misconduct is far worse than anything in the TNR article.


Kristol's complaint would have far greater validity had he written the following

But what is revealing about this mistake is that the editors must have wanted to suspend their disbelief in tales of gross misconduct by President Bush. How else could they have published such a farrago of dubious tales?

That really is the great media failure of the last few years.

I don't often agree with Jennifer, but exactly. Why the fuck are soldiers in Iraq? I understand that soldiers want/need to get laid but this is still mind-bogglingly stupid. The main reason soldiers aren't getting along with the locals is that they are trying to kill each other. Although yeah, getting ass is nice. Maybe that will be the Surge movement of 2008. Let's not pull out yet!

The decision by Franklin Foer to publish the Scott Thomas article was a terrible error of judgment. Regardless of whether or not it is true the story about the IED victim should never have seen the light of day and its publication reflects badly on both Scott Thomas and Franklin Foer. Would either of these two idiots even begin to comprehend how a female IED victim would feel were she to read this story.

Franklin Foer has been a bad editor of The New Republic. Its troubles are deeper and far more serious than this one article. Under Foer’s editorship the magazine has continued to smear and libel as anti-Semitic anyone who voices even the slightest criticism of Israel. It even had what amounted to a one-sided conference on anti-anti-Semitism with no rebuttal whatsoever to the harebrained rants of its writers. In what seemed like one week the magazine had two separate articles online attacking Rachel Corrie – one by the juvenile James Kirchick and the other by the senescent Cynthia Ozick. Foer continues to publish vile material written by Martin Peretz a man whose continued association with the magazine ruins the reputation of the magazine and everyone associated with it.

Franklin Foer has shown himself unwilling to stop The New Republic marching to the sound of the right-wing nationalism that has done so much damage to the United States and Israel over the years. Foer either believes the magazine’s role in this area is correct – in which case he is seriously misguided – or he is too much of a coward to do anything about it. In either case he edits a magazine no longer worth reading.

"If Bill Kristol really wants to take the view that all soldiers are flawless and anyone who says otherwise is a traitor,"

Matthew Yglesias doesn't get it.

Of course Bill Kristol doesn't believe any of that.

I suggest we stop rebutting Kristol Meth. He rebuts himself every time he opens his mouth.

Kristol Meth should be mocked and ridiculed.

What is happening here is simple. Kristol Meth used to be able to count on a big tent of war supporters, among them TNR. Now TNR is wavering. So Kristol Meth is lashing out like a trapped animal. Slander, smear, character assassination.............all part of his warchest.

This will only get worse as more and more people bail out on the war. Kristol Meth will turn Full Frontal Joseph McCarthy and demand unamerican hearings.

You have a bunch of nitpicking about the technical details of some of the hardware described

Nitpicking technical details -- such as that not a single detail about the "running over dogs" story rings true.

Kristol Meth is trying to bring back the Nixon/McGovern narrative.

He is saying if we lose the war it will be because of dirty f'ing hippies at TNR, Daily Kos and elsewhere who hate our troops, hate America and want to surrender to terrorists.

He is laying the groundwork for stabbed-in-the-back narrative for the Iraq war.

There is no need to resort to citing "Platoon". There's plenty of evidence that a lot, probably considerably more than 5%, of American troops in Iraq, are abusive toward civilians. Check out the recent testimony in the Nation magazine, or else this survey:

In fall 2006, the Army's mental health advisory teams conducted a survey of some 1,600 soldiers and Marines in Iraq. For the first time in their monitoring of the battlefield, they also asked questions about troops' ethical behavior. Most service members perform with honor under the most trying of circumstances. Yet a noteworthy number evinced disdain for the very civilians whose "hearts and minds" are the contested prize of counterinsurgency. More than half of U.S. troops surveyed disagreed with the statement that non-combatants should be treated with dignity and respect. Almost 10 percent reported mistreating civilians by kicking them or unnecessarily damaging their possessions. Many claimed they had not been instructed otherwise. According to one-third of Marines and one-quarter of soldiers surveyed, their leaders failed to tell them not to mistreat civilians. Is it surprising, then, that fewer than half the troops said they would report a team member's unethical behavior? The bottom line is that significant numbers of U.S. troops think and act in ways that violate their professional ethics and the laws of war.

Link here:

http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/ksgnews/Features/opeds/070107_sewall.htm

But I wouldn't call the troops "bad" because they commit human rights violations, since both the strategy and the explicit tactics of this war almost require harm to Iraqi civilians. The people who have really "gone bad" here are the civilian overlords and the political system

Degenerate disgusting sexist discussion is obviously in order, to show the kind of people we really are. I get it. Let's all degrade women now. Great fun.

Kneejerk much? Cali's statements are, if anything, degrading to men. He's not advocating rape, for chrissakes; if anything, he's saying that men think with their privates, and that the most apt pupil is a tumescent one. It's not degenerate to engage in consensual sex with a foreigner -- so if you want to play the reactionary card, I'll say that you're being jingoistic, as your statement implicitly shows disdain for Iraqi women's judgement.

I see that the Fake but Accurate Standard is alive and well!

Matthew Yglesias imagines how the Scott Thomas stories could be true, and that's all that matters, eh? What's a little factual nitpicking compared to a generic statistical probability? If a fabrication fits your preferred narrative, and leads to "correct conclusions," what's the problem?

"If Bill Kristol really wants to take the view that all soldiers are flawless and anyone who says otherwise is a traitor, that explains a lot about Kristol's inability to every reach the correct conclusions about any substantive national security issues."

Having actually followed your link, I'd say that the only redeeming feature of this otherwise intellectually dishonest representation is the word "If."

Yea Jennifer, you're way too sensitive. Cali's basically saying men are horny and can become frustrated with forced abstinence. Hardly a knock at women. Then he adds that sex causes men to look at women (and just foreign people) as more sociable and likable. They become more "human" in the sense that you feel more comfortable living among them, which is more solipsistic than sexist. But people actually are rather self-centered, and it's silly to denounce anyone who thinks that misogyny and unwanted virginity might go hand in hand just so you can decouple male attitudes toward women from sex; indeed, they seem rather obviously related.

Does this mean women are mere sex-objects? Of course not. But it might be worth understanding that a lot of men, including probably many soldiers, do primarily consider women as a sexual goal, and that their success there has at least something to do with their attitude towards women and people generally.

What's a little factual nitpicking compared to a generic statistical probability?

That's correct, actually.

There have been numerous studies of the behavior of men in battle, authored by historians and psychologists of war, and amply attested by the more personal and anecdotal accounts of journalists and participants, which agree on just how commonplace and unsurprising are the forms of brutality we have been discussing. See Richard Holmes Acts of War: The Behavior of Men in Battle for one example.

The sporadic accounts of soldiers behaving badly that have come out of this war are no different in kind from the accounts of other wars: desecration of the bodies of the enemy dead; taking of possessions and body parts as trophies, pillage; wanton acts of vandalism and destruction; killing of domestic animals; rape, hatred, abuse and murder of civilians. So far, I'd guess the reports have been relatively tame by historical standards. But there are always vigorous attempts in war to protect the delicate sensibilities of those on the home front from the true scope of the horror, and to encumber the memories of the returning soldiers in a code of silence. Whether those memories stay encumbered or not often depends on how the war turns out.

These behaviors seem to be expressions of a natural capacity for ferocious combat, whose aim is either to destroy the enemy community utterly and carry off any spoils of value, in the form of booty or slaves, or else to subordinate that community to one's rule. The goal is achieved by fighting, incapacitating and killing the enemies' soldiers; abusing, terrorizing and subordinating his women and children; destroying his house and his fields; killing and mutilating his cattle and his dog; and generally wreak whatever mayhem is necessary to spread fear, sap the the enemy's will to resist, and compel his submission to your will.

It is also one of the standard psychological tactics of warfare, which requires convincing large numbers of one's own people to overcome their moral and social inhibitions about killing other human beings, that the enemy should be presented as an inhuman or subhuman representative of an inhuman or subhuman culture or race meriting extermination. It is especially easy in the case of insurgent warfare for soldiers to extend their violent hatred of their attackers to the entire community which shelters and supports those attackers.

How many people could go through several months or years away from home in a foreign land, while people attempt everyday to shoot you, behead you, blow you up or some other horror, with the community in which those attackers exist urging them on, without succumbing to rage? My impression is that far from being the outcroppings of isolated bad apple deviance, these sorts of war crimes are the destination of natural human tendencies in situations of prolonged murderous violence, and it takes a tremendously disciplined military organization to minimize these episodes, and uphold standards of soldierly conduct that keep the army fixed on higher war aims and political goals that would be undermined by falling into an orgy of rage.

Kristol would have us believe he doesn't know all these things.

The desire for vengeance can be quite overwhelming. Consider the closing verses of Psalm 137:

Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
"Tear it down," they cried,
"tear it down to its foundations!"

O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us-

he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

It's amazing how calipygian basically says what a bunch of us have been saying about the "and a Pony!" narrative being stupid yet he still somehow gets attacked. I think it goes right down to the differences between Dworkin-style man-hating feminism and later generation, equality-emphasizing, sexually open and realistic feminism. calipygian is pretty much being frank about male sexuality, especially young, immature male sexuality. We aren't exactly sending over a bunch of experienced 40-year-olds who have settled down and been with a lot of women to "sow their oats." You don't even have to go into the military to see his point. You can just go into any high school locker room or any campus frat house. To put it another way, I wonder how many non-Latin students in California end up taking Spanish just to try to impress hot Latin girls. I know I've learned a lot more about Latin culture from dating Latinas than I ever learned in a classroom.

"That's correct, actually."

No, that was a question, actually.

Thanks for bringing this up. The article in TNR is pretty unbelievable (for reasons listed below), but by continuing to deny it and insult those who question the article, you keep alive an issue that could easily die of neglect. I don't think anyone who questions the article is saying that soldiers are perfect (excellent straw man argument-another attempt at mythmaking). Rather, they are saying that the SPECFICIC ALLEGATIONS in the article are untrue. Its impossible to know for sure (or at least, very difficult to know for sure) but frankly they are pretty absurd.
1) A driver used his Bradley Fighting Vehicle to sneak up on a dog on his right and run over it.
- A Bradley is not too far from a Tank-about 25 tons (close to the weight of Sherman tanks in WWII). They are not maneuverable, or zippy, or fast. It is implausible to suspect a bradley could sneak up on a dog, could accelerate enough to 'catch' a dog. Furthermore, the driver of the Bradley sits on the left, and CAN'T SEE THE GROUND ON THE RIGHT SIDE. This story is likely nonsense.
2) A Bradley ran over a dog, cut it in two, and left the head smiling (?).
-Note that a Bradley, again, is like a tank-it has treads wider than a foot. It wouldn't 'cut' a dog: it would squish it. Would a bulldozer 'cut a dog in two'? This story is likely made up or an embellishment.
3) A region in Baghdad is ''brown venice' because the streets run with raw sewage. All the soldiers hate to drive there because if they get a flat, they have to get out and change it in the sewage.
-HMMV's don't carry spare tires. They have tires that can be driven flat for several miles. Thus, 1) they don't even change tires, and 2) even if they did, they could easily drive out of the 'rivers of sewage' to change it. This story is likely made up or an embellishment (perhaps a HMMV broke down in a sewer canal, once, and the crew had to get out to hook up towing cables?)

4) Soldiers stumbled upon a mass grave site from the Saddam era, dug up children's bones, played with them, and one soldier took a child's skull, with hair still attached, and put it under his helmet for the rest of the day.
-Fact checking is progressing-are there unidentified mass grave sites, full of children's bones, being desecrated by soldiers? Would a skull, buried during the Saddam era, in teh desert, still have hair attached? Does it even make sense to put a child's skullbone on an adult head (physically, it wouldn't fit. It would be uncomfortable-put a dog bone on your head, then put a 6 pound helmet on-How would it feel?)?
-Hard to say. This certainly seems at least plausible. But the specifics of the case-hair surviving, the discomfort of having a bone on your head for an entire day, etc, seem just weird. Unlikely, but possible.
5) A soldier saw a scarred woman in a chow hall, didn't know if she was a soldier or contractor, insulted her for her scars loudly and publically.
-This is the most controversial even though it is the least likely to be resolved. 1) It is implausible for a soldier to not recognize another individual's uniform, and not know if it is a military uniform or not. 2) It is simply psychologically, and socially implausible. Soldiers can be mean, and soldiers can be insensitive, and soldiers can be cruel. But it is unlikely that they would be cruel or insensitive TO ONE OF THEIR OWN. Example: we could all imagine a professor telling loud, socially unacceptable jokes. But we would imagine that professor telling them about Bush, or about politicians, or about this or that organization, or this or that law. If a story came out that a professor told loud, cruel, derogatory jokes about Martin Luther King, Junior (perhaps making racist jokes) in a college cafeteria, it would be utterly implausible.
And so with this story. Its not implausible that cruel jokes were made. Its implausible that cruel jokes were made (this loud in this setting) with the target being another soldier or contractor in Iraq.
-This is likely nonsense. Perhaps a quiet joke between conspirators at a table, perhaps a joke between buddies, but jokes loud enough to insult the scarred woman, and loud enough for several people in the crowd to hear-simply silly.

Really, the article read like a liberal fantasy of cruel soldiers (the TNR readers can all tut-tut, and feel smug about their unwillingess to serve in the military). But barring really surprising evidence to the contrary, it seems likely to be nonsense.

Sk


I hope for TNR's sake that Foer's report on this is accurate, persuasive and true. I have a like-hate relationship with TNR: Hate Peretz, Kirchick and sometimes Zengerle, tend to like the rest.

The fun part is, the folks who are screaming blue murder at TNR's piece are the same folks who took Michael Yon's "Al Qaeda is baking teenage boys and serving them to their families" nonsense as Gospel.

"But it might be worth understanding that a lot of men, including probably many soldiers, do primarily consider women as a sexual goal, and that their success there has at least something to do with their attitude towards women and people generally."

Ah, the soft bigotry of low expectations.

Joel - Alas, another liberal unacquainted with the ways of the noble enlisted person. See the piece in today's WaPo magazine about the gulf between the military and the rest of America for details.

Re: and who don't have access to sex, drugs and alcohol to help alleviate that burden

Everyone everywhere at any time has access to sex. It's called masturbation. And I'd be really surprised if our soldiers hadn't found a way to get hold of booze at least. They'd be the first major army in history to spend their service 100% sober.
Also, isn't the Middle East awash in opiates and hashish? Maybe frequent drug testing keeps that to a minimum, still I'd be surprised if it isn't there.

Re: I hate to be crude, but as Bill Maher says, "We've got 100,000 horny soldiers in a country with no pussy." It makes a big difference.

There are no whores in Iraq? A country where much of the civilian population is in desperate economic straits? Come on, how credible is that? Iraq would be the first conquered country where in history desperate women didn't try to survive by offering a little nookie to the conquerors in exchange for cash.

Re: Its implausible that cruel jokes were made (this loud in this setting) with the target being another soldier or contractor in Iraq.

The jokes might have been made out of the woman's hearing. That I don't think would be implausible.

"Joel - Alas, another liberal unacquainted with the ways of the noble enlisted person"

Conservitives believe that nobility includes treating women as sex objects? Who knew?

When did conservative men stop defending gentlemanly behavior and start scorning it as "liberal?" If treating women as fellow, you know, human beings makes me "liberal" then color me proudly liberal. Where I grew up, it was what gentlemen do.

Check out my postings on the Evil Orange to check out my "liberal Pedigree". And I stand by my assertion of difference between military and civilian culture.

Ah, then this is simply a new and unfamiliar use of the word "nobel."

Sigh...this is my way of saying that the upper levels of liberal discourse have no idea of how to interact with the blue color liberals that exist in, among many places, in the enlisted ranks of the military. The use of the term "nobel" (sic) was made in order to highlight the difference between the two camps, akin to how anthropologists used to describe our primate cousins as "the nobel (sic) ape". Just sayin...

No, that was a question, actually.

A lame rhetorical question.

I haven't read this article (behind the TNR subscription wall), but the incidents being alleged are much more minor than numerous abuses of civilians that we know for a fact took place. So why is everyone spending so much time on it?

Sigh...this is my way of saying that the upper levels of liberal discourse have no idea of how to interact with the blue color liberals that exist in, among many places, in the enlisted ranks of the military.

My dispensation to believe the worst out of stories that come out Iraq has to do with the fact that I have family and friends who have been through there on multiple tours, my cousin died there.

In my experience the regular military is going to be embarassed by what's going on over there and blame the guard. They all blame someone else. A friend of mine who was 101st airborne blame a combination of the guard and the 82nd. A friend of mine's brother was 82nd and said the 101st runed everything before they got there.

Yeah, what we need for the war effort are Iraqi prostitutes. Makes perfect sense. Look at Vietnam--lots of opportunities for sex there and so it's little wonder that war went as well as it did. No atrocities there, cuz our boys got laid. And look at all other wars throughout history. Lots of opportunities for sex and you know, there's nothing like a war for bringing out the tender romantic inclinations in a 20 year old guy with a gun.

I'm pretty much in Jennifer's camp on this one. Caly is perfectly correct about how sex-obsessed 20 year old guys are, as all of us who were once 20 year old guys can testify. To jump from this to conclude that more sex between US forces and Iraqi prostitutes would lead to US troops humanizing Iraqis seems a little odd, to put it mildly.

I don't think Caly's commentary deserves our feminist scorn, but I also don't think its very accurate. I can't say for sure, but as Donald notes, it seems implausible that Iraqi prostitutes would help to humanize the population. Real girlfriend's might be different, but I think the existing cultural barrier is to great for that to be plausible. It might have been effective in Europe and increasing sympathy b/w already similar cultures but I don't think it did much good in Vietnam and I don't think it would do much good in Iraq. Maybe if our occupation was on the order of 20-30 years it would work, but that's not relevant.

I don't think calipygian was talking about prostitutes (or at least the straight quid pro quo kind). You don't need to learn any Arabic (or at least much) to hire a prostitute.

I think he was talking about "real girlfriends", but the downside seems bigger than upside.

"Stop, stop,if you go to ciphering we are whipped beforehand." - Robert E. Lee

The allegations leveled by "Scott Thomas" are extremely serious. These aren't cruel pranks but serious breeches in conduct. TNR had better have 100% confidence in their stories because if this is true Thomas and his comrades are guilty of serious misconduct and in my opinion should probably court-martialed and promptly shot. The conduct detailed is despicable and extremely damaging to the Army. Its precisely because of the very serious nature of these crimes that nitpicking details matters.
The technical issues are a little stronger than you give credit for. If experts say that its highly improbable to be able to run over dogs with a Bradley thats a pretty glaring hole in your story. If there are no reports of a massive grave found in the area you say it was found thats a glaring hole. If outside investigations cannot corroborate your allegations thats a glaring hole. You argue that the army does a pretty good job of keeping an eye on the trouble makers but the point of Thomas's article was just the opposite that soldiers ROUTINELY run amok and cruelty is widespread.
For you to pull figures out of the air (95% of 95%) and say "well even if this case isn't true these things must happen by the numbers" is idiotic beyond measure. Try using that argument in a court of law.
While you are indeed right, that probability dictates there is likely some cases of misconduct by soldiers (several of which have in fact come to light and probably many more that haven't) it is a non sequitur to use that probability as a proof for a specfic case. In any event soldiers engaged in misconduct should be punished and severely.
On the whole the questions raised about the TNR piece make it at least necessary to withhold judgment on the truth of Thomas's claims until better proof is provided and the "technical nitpicks" are accounted for. And incidentally if the story is true TNR, by failing to reveal the names of the individuals involved, is deliberately sheltering criminals and sadists of the most appalling sort and allowing them to continue dishonouring their country and tormenting their fellow human beings.

I didn't buy Yon's baked boys, and I don't buy the New Republic's story either (the part that I have read).

Soldiers shooting stray dogs- No problem.
Soldiers descrating enemy bodies, or even civilians-OK, but children's bodies from a massacre by Saddam?

IED woman? see above.

Soldiers shooting civilians, kidnapping, torture, executions, civilian massacres- again, I could believe them all. These stories just seem a little too urban-legendish (as did Yon's Baghdad Baked Babies.)

Woody Bombay :

"The fun part is, the folks who are screaming blue murder at TNR's piece are the same folks who took Michael Yon's "Al Qaeda is baking teenage boys and serving them to their families" nonsense as Gospel."

If Yon, publishing anonymously under a pseudonym, said he'd seen a baked boy, you might have a point.


mq:

"A lame rhetorical question.... I haven't read this article...."
LOL!

Cali didn't say that men who are pursuing serious relationships with Iraqi women would be more likely to learn about the culture.

He said

If there is one thing that motivates the serviceman to understand the language and the culture of the country that he is in, its the opporitunity to knock off a bit of ass once in a while. I seriously contend that this is the number one barrier to the Army in establishing any sort of rapport with the Iraqi people.

Emphasis added.

1. This is obviously not the number one barrier, you numbskulls.
2. We could also reduce hostilities by withdrawing troops or by sending over hundreds of thousands of American women to teach the Iraqis our culture (heh heh Beavis). These solutions are obviously "unrealistic" but not much more so than saying that peace comes from American soldiers having sex with Iraqi civilians, especially given that the percentage of American soldiers who would seriously learn the Iraqi culture through serious relationships with Iraqi women is rather small (as opposed to the number of soldiers who would rather have sex with prostitutes, or even rape civilians -- not that this has ever happened before).
3. Did anyone really need this explained? Christ.

My guess is the 4th ID is overly represented in that bad 5% of 5%. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/23/AR2006072300495.html

JM Hanes, what are you laughing about? Atrocities are well documented, the extent of it is not difficult to ascertain, and one story - true or fictional - doesn't change anything. Especially considering that a vast majority of lies and disinformation are originated from the pro-war side, official war-time propaganda.

Do you disagree?

abb1:

I was laughing about mq expressing an opinion without having read the article.

Any one story may not change the stats, but the stats don't change fiction into fact either. You may not care about whether the Scott Thomas stories are true or not. I do.

Well, the whole point of this post is that it is irrelevant whether the Scott Thomas stories are true or not.

Posted by abb1 | July 23, 2007 8:45 AM:"Well, the whole point of this post is that it is irrelevant whether the Scott Thomas stories are true or not."

I agree entirely. A significant section of the Left hates American soldiers (and probably that is not unrelated to their views on the sort of people who join and support the American Army) and whether or not this story is true or not, will believe it. Just as many people used to believe Jews ate Gentile Babies for Passover. What? You mean 95 percent of Jewish people are decent and kind but that still leaves 5 percent - nudge nudge wink wink?

It is a sad day for everyone when TNR can publish this tripe without two seconds thought and common sense much less fact checking.

The real issue is why people want to believe it is true? For those young men thinking about Palestine or Jihad or 72 Virgins, I can see and understand, to some extent, and I have a pretty good idea of how the Jihadi websites are going to go to town on this story. But TNR?

As abb1 and I said above, the reason the Scott Thomas article is irrelevant is that we know for a fact the U.S. military has committed atrocities much worse than this.

A significant section of the Left hates American soldiers

I think it's more that a significant section of the Right needs the people to believe the Left hates "our troops". This serves as a distraction from the no-win, brutal situation that the Right has actually put our soldiers in.

I think what makes the question of the accuracy of this reporting even more fraught than usual is the source: the New Republic. We get the Neo-Con armchair-warriors clucking condescendingly (as one commenter observed) at the barbarism of our soldiers. The New Republic was a major cheerleader for this illegal and obviously wrong-headed war. The smugness of all this is a bit thick. I'd like to see some of these Neo-Con chickenhawk-war-fetishists out there in the dust and chaos of Baghdad and Anbar Province, going crazy in the heat and the impossible strategic/tactical scenario that's been thrown at our soldiers. Of course atrocities and crimes of war are wrong and inexcusable and there's obviously been more than a lot of war crimes committed in Irag and Afghanistan--all this ought to be reported (and investigated) to the fullest measure. But, frankly, the New Republic does not possess the moral or intellectual credibility to effectively play this role. They represent a small piece of the ideological juggernaut that pointlessly sent our soldiers over there to fight (their) Arab enemies.

Of course the major flaw in your argument is that the diarist in question appears have decided to go to Iraq, to perpetrate cruelty, then report how bad it is himself.

He practiced writing about atrocities while cooling his heels in Germany. You say that people only complain about small technical details, but those are allways what catches the liars. That's where the saying came from: 'The devil is in the details'. If the guy claims Glocks have square casings, sure that is a small detail, it is also very telling about the reporters level of ignorance and the fact beauchamps entire Devil Dogs story relied on the catch taht only Iraqi Police have Glocks, which is completely false. So havingthe casings wrong, and having who has Glocks wrong pretty much destroys his entire point.

As you say there are enough bad apples without a anti-war would-be reporter joining in to make himself credible.

Let's just hope everyone on the left remembers their words about believing what a soldier says reporting from Iraq, when it is Gen Petraeus's turn to submit his 'diary'. I suspect the left will not fall over backwards to praise and protect that particular soldiers reporting.


Comments closed August 05, 2007.