Christians United for Israel

Back in March, I wondered why AIPAC was so eager to join forces with a man whose support for Israel is grounded in the belief that his favored foreign policy will spark a giant war that ends in the destruction of Israel at the hands of a Russo-Arab alliance. The man in question was John Haggee and his group is Christians United for Israel. Max Blumenthal went to the CUFI conference and made a video:

Rapture Ready: The Unauthorized Christians United for Israel Tour from huffpost and Vimeo.

And their motives are, in fact, mixed. Some say they support Israel because Islam is a satanic faith. Others say it's part of their plan to bring about the apocalypse. All seem united in their hopes that someday there will be no Jews. They want a preventive attack on Iran. And Joe Lieberman thinks they're great. The link is via Rick Perlstein who has more on apocalyptics' influence on the White House.

Comments

Wow, they put the Christ in Christian. They're just like him, in that they live 2000 years ago.

Posted by Gregorio | July 26, 2007 12:28 PM

Haggee makes Avigdor Lieberman look sane in comparison, quite a feat.

Posted by mrs. ibrahim al-jafaari | July 26, 2007 12:32 PM

At some level you have to respect Lieberman's use of these groups. (Now I have to go wash my mouth out.) Whatever else I think of him, I'm sure Lieberman doesn't want a world without Jews. So just as these groups are manipulating Jews by acting like they support Isreal when they really want its destruction, Lieberman is playing the Christian fundies by using their political clout to achieve his goals, not theirs. I have no problem with manipulating these kinds of people, although I don't know if I agree or even know what Joe is ultimately trying to accomplish either.

Posted by SP | July 26, 2007 12:39 PM

Looks like Blumenthal ganked the name of Dan Radosh's upcoming book?

Posted by oudemia | July 26, 2007 12:41 PM

best Blumenthal video yet, even better than the College Republicans. MB is very adept at bringing out the driving passions of these wacky folks (the College Republicans inner brownshirt, the CUFI fundamentalists inner anti-semitism) in a way that makes the motivations clear to anyone watching and listening.

Why should anyone be surprised that people like Senator L and Dore Gold find these people allies? CUFI is not, at the end of the day, very much different from Gush Enumin or the Kach colonists.

Posted by mrs. ibrahim al-jafaari | July 26, 2007 12:50 PM

It's not just a Russo-Arab alliance that will seek to destroy Israel, the entire might of Ethiopia will join in.

See slacktivist's parsing of Left Behind.

Posted by MikeJ | July 26, 2007 12:59 PM

Someone in the comments of this blog recently said "Not all critics of Israel are anti-Semites, but all anti-Semites are critics of Israel." I think this notion is contradicting by people like this. I can't imagine a definition of anti-Semitism that doesn't include "they're all gonna convert or burn" within it.

Posted by Freddie | July 26, 2007 1:06 PM

Someday there will be a cure for religion.

Posted by melior | July 26, 2007 1:19 PM

Max Blumenthal is the new Sacha Baron Cohen.

Posted by Dr. Victor Davis Handjob | July 26, 2007 1:24 PM

What I find most amusing about Max's transparent video is in the fact that he mentions that thousands came to see Hagee, but Blumenthal chose a very select portion of the "flock" to interview for his piece.

Anyone who knows Blumenthal's point of view on matters of organized religion, the Christian Right and Republicanism/Conservatism, would expect this from him, and he did not fail to be predictable.

Maybe Max can now show you an edit of more footage, with the doctors, lawyers, small business owners, teachers, scientists and the literally thousands of others who were there who were not speaking from an uneducated perspective and who were not doing interpretive dance in the aisles, and show that there is a movement of people who do not subscribe to "the rapture" and just believe that god's-will will be revealed one day, and until then, our lot is to work together for a common goal of survival.

Max forgot to include Hagee's comment while holding his friend Rabbi Aryeh Sheinbaum, an Orthodox rabbi from San Antonio when asked about eschatology, "we both know that one day when we're dancing in the streets of Jerusalem together, one of us will have to seriously reevaluate our beliefs."

That said to anyone else listening, that while Hagee is indeed a Christian and holds to the belief in Christ, he does acknowledge that maybe he does not everything and that God's design is still truly unknown.

Max, an honest reporter would try to stay honest, but one with an agenda will always only find the facts that support his ends.

Posted by Johnny | July 26, 2007 1:25 PM

Yes it's their plan to bring about the apocalypse, but it's not a very good plan. It's not like Lieberman or Israel is (or needs to be) worried about the tribulation actually happening. So take the support, the bill's due never. Cynical, but what else is new?

@Freddie: there's also a well-established "better there than here" strain of pro-Zionist anti-semitism.

Posted by Adrian | July 26, 2007 1:39 PM

The willingness to form an alliance with Hagee (please at least correct misspellings of names, MY!) rests on a bland assumption that right-wing Zionists are the ones doing the manipulating, as reflected in SP's comment at 12:39.

In March, I answered Matt's question:

Hagee and his CZ brethren (notably LaHaye and Robertson) are in a mutual use-each-other deal with rightist Israelis: half of U.S. tourism to Israel is organized by their networks, they raise significant amounts of money to support settlers, and Hagee's Citizens United for Israel mobilizes political support for pro-rightist-Israeli policy where it would otherwise be quite weak: the rural and suburban south.

Israel's far-right policies have created a situation that alienates Jewish Americans. So Ha'aretz's DC correspondent Shmuel Rosner argues, as he did after the death of Jerry Falwell, the first of the prominent "Christian Zionists", that Israelis cannot afford to be choosy.

This is, to put it mildly, a dangerous path.

Posted by Nell | July 26, 2007 1:44 PM

Creepy - is it just me or does the woman on the left appear to be some kind of bizarre composite of Dame Judy Dench and T'Pal(the Vulcan from the TV show Enterprise)?

Posted by kenga | July 26, 2007 1:51 PM

Johnny did you watch the video?

Hagee, the guy in charge. Not a nut. Not a fellow traveler dr./lawyer/accountant, Hagee the leader the spokesman.

He said that the modern suffering/oppression of the jews was the result of their rejection of God. Hagee insinuates that that it is really Jesus they have rejected not Jehovah.

Basically Hagee said that the holocaust was the jew's fault because they, unlike himself, have rejected god.

This should have been called the Elmer Gantry convention.

Posted by feckless | July 26, 2007 2:09 PM

And of course individuals like Abe Foxman and Marty Peretz stay silent.

At least give Alan Dershowitz credit for this -- although I disagree with him on a number of things, he is one of the few strongly pro-Isreal jews who actually call out these nuts for who they are, and actively so. When will Marty and Abe grow a pair?

Posted by Alex Swingle | July 26, 2007 2:18 PM

This focus on apocalyptic Christianity is interesting, but not particularly useful. One might suggest a parallel to those on the right who say that the real reason for Kyoto/climate change theory is to get the US to destroy its own economy and force everyone to a 1870s standard of living.

True? Maybe. Interesting? Definitely? Gonna actually happen? Uh, no, probably not.

Posted by Klug | July 26, 2007 2:20 PM

More like the 1780s except with cleaner water, safer child birth, and anaesthesia.

Posted by Jeffrey Davis | July 26, 2007 2:30 PM

Oy. I thought the Russkies were scary during my Late Cold War–Era ute.

At least they weren't, y'know, crazy.

If only Martin Luther had prevailed and Revelations had been left out of the Protestant canon. And, y'know, he hadn't written The Jews and Their Lies, since half that, "well, if they'd only convert" stuff originated with the old bastard, AFAIK.

P.S.—So that's liturgical dance? Ow! My eyes!

Posted by hamletta | July 26, 2007 2:32 PM

1. In fact, the alliance between AIPAC and Hagee resembles the WW 2 alliance between Roosevelt and Churchill on the one hand and Stalin on the other hand. Or, to quote an old Arab saying, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

2. I suspect that Ms. al-jafaari would feel better about things if AIPAC invited Norman Finkelstein to address them.

Posted by SLC | July 26, 2007 2:40 PM

2. I suspect that Ms. al-jafaari would feel better about things if AIPAC invited Norman Finkelstein to address them.

Of course, many of the members of CUFI are anti-Semites. Norman Finkelstein is not.

Posted by Freddie | July 26, 2007 2:49 PM

So just as these groups are manipulating Jews by acting like they support Israel when they really want its destruction, Lieberman is playing the Christian fundies by using their political clout to achieve his goals, not theirs.

I'm reminded of these words of the Prophet:

"I used her she used me, but neither one cared /
We were getting our share."

PBUHN

Posted by Flavor Flavius Julianus | July 26, 2007 2:53 PM

no discussion of AIPAC is truly complete without the chauvinism and ultranationalism of the very best Colonial Project Boosters, SLC.

need to defend racism? SLC is there for you.
need to find support for exterminationism? SLC is your man.
want to justify the unjustifiable, or call immorality moral? SLC has got the goods.

though my favorite SLC moment was his recent defense of the release of 2% of the political prisoners held by the Israeli's. members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine appreciate your support, SLC. sucker.

Posted by mrs. ibrahim al-jafaari | July 26, 2007 3:00 PM

You know, it was just last year that the Rabid Republican Rapture-Ready Right was calling any immigrant who waved a Mexican flag "traitorous."

Wow, that's a big sea of the flags of another country there in that video. I had no idea that the AIPAC supporters were so traitorous!

(Wait, actually, I did know that.)

Posted by Kiva Oraibi | July 26, 2007 3:30 PM

Re Freddie

"Of course, many of the members of CUFI are anti-Semites. Norman Finkelstein is not."

Norman Finkelstein not an antisemite? Maybe so but he sure likes to hob nob with antisemites who make the Rev. Hagee look like a rabbi.

http://www.blogcentral.jpost.com/index.php?blog_post_id=904

Re mrs. ibrahim al-jafaari

1. I think I must take issue with the charge by Ms. jafaari that I support exterminationism for the Palestinians. Just to be perfectly clear so that there be no misunderstanding, I oppose the Kahaneist proposal for an Eichmann solution to the Palestinian Arab problem in Palestine.

2. Ms. jafaari appears to be confused in claiming that I defended the release of 200 Palestinian prisoners in the recent act of appeasement by Olmert, the moron. I have made it perfectly clear that the combination of Olmert, Abbas, and Bush consists of 3 dead men walking. The chances that these 3 walking corpses can accomplish anything are slim and none and slim is already on the bus headed out of town.

3. As my Syrian friend Ammar Kanaan says, Dr. SLC is prejudiced against everybody.

4. By the term Colonial Project Booster, I assume that Ms. Jafaari means a supporter of the State of Israel. To that, I cheerfully plead guilty.

Posted by SLC | July 26, 2007 3:38 PM

Glenn Greenwald at Salon;

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/

Joe Lieberman is, of course, one of the very serious -- deeply, deeply serious -- sane and mainstream political figures. Agree or disagree, he is a real serious and thoughtful and mainstream political thinker.

Last week, as Philip Weiss noted yesterday, Lieberman was the honored guest of evangelical Minister John Hagee and the group he leads, Christians United for Israel. As the Press Release distributed by Very Serious Moderate Lieberman aide Marshall Whittman demonstrates, Lieberman gave a speech there which Weiss, with understatement, calls "shocking." More on that in a moment.

* * * * * *

Lieberman's political comrade, Rev. Hagee, is at once both an extraordinary figure and a common one. He is an evangelical minister who, as an amazing interview he gave late last year to NPR's Terry Gross reflects, believes that "Rapture" -- whereby all Christians literally disappear from earth upon the return of Christ, leaving all non-believers to suffer on Earth -- is "imminent."

Posted by DonB | July 26, 2007 3:47 PM

My roommate is an evangelical Christian who works for AIPAC and she's crazy. The girl is a complete head case.

Posted by Anon | July 26, 2007 3:53 PM

LOL! Another fat-assed religious charlatan who lives in luxury while scheming gullible religious saps out of their money....in the name of God, of course! Good news is that Falwell's death reminded us frauds like he and Haggee will drop dead someday and certainly long before they or their demented followers see "the Rapture!"

LOL!

Posted by Carlton Q | July 26, 2007 4:10 PM

The best thing about the rapture will be all the great courtside season tickets opening up at the AT&T Center.

Posted by MP | July 26, 2007 4:17 PM

Did you read Beyond Chutzpah, SLC? I don't suggest that you have to agree with its conclusions but the fact is that Finkelstein's entire thesis is that accusations of anti-Semitism have unfairly silenced critics of Israel. In the course of doing so he never, in my estimation, says anything that can be construed as anti-Semitic, except maybe in the vague, guilt-by-association, tiptoe to the line but never dip your toe in, Jonah Goldberg-style of accusation that seems so popular these days. Perhaps I'm wrong. I would feel a lot more comfortable with the accusation if there was a specific statement behind it.

And by the way, generally the technique for the anti-Semitic accusing crowd is to call a Jewish critic of Israel "self-hating." Goes down a little smoother for some.

Posted by Freddie | July 26, 2007 4:46 PM

Most amusing is the fact that anyone could possibly think critics of Israel are being silenced, when Israel is perhaps the most criticised country in the entire world (maybe after the US).

Posted by Dave | July 26, 2007 4:51 PM

Re Freddie

I have not read Dr. Finkelsteins' tome. Did Mr. Freddie bother to go to the link I posted where Dr. Finkelsteins' associations with Holocaust deniers, neo-nazis, and terrorist organizations are laid out? When one gets into the pen with the pigs, one can expect to emerge with a coating of mud.

Posted by SLC | July 26, 2007 5:47 PM

When one gets into the pen with the pigs, one can expect to emerge with a coating of mud.

Posted by SLC | July 26, 2007 5:47 PM

Do you need a towel?

Posted by Max Renn | July 26, 2007 7:14 PM

Re "At least give Alan Dershowitz credit for this -- although I disagree with him on a number of things, he is one of the few strongly pro-Isreal jews who actually call out these nuts for who they are, and actively so"
------------

I myself also admired the deep anguish Alan Dershowitz showed over the death of Ronald Goldman during the O J Simpson trial.

And if Alan is denouncing nuts, could someone ask him to review OJ's book "If I Did It"?

Posted by Don Williams | July 26, 2007 7:47 PM

Most amusing is the fact that anyone could possibly think critics of Israel are being silenced, when Israel is perhaps the most criticised country in the entire world (maybe after the US).

Not in the United States, which is where I live, where I participate in democracy, and where I am responsible for expressing the direction I wish my country to take.

Did Mr. Freddie bother to go to the link I posted where Dr. Finkelsteins' associations with Holocaust deniers, neo-nazis, and terrorist organizations are laid out? When one gets into the pen with the pigs, one can expect to emerge with a coating of mud.

Mr. Freddie is in the habit of actually reading someone's work and engaging their arguments before he passes judgment on them. And Mr. Freddie would have to point out that, however odious his associations may be, Dr. Finkelstein is not a Holocaust denier (and explicitly and emphatically so), a Neo-Nazi (and probably wouldn't be invited to join, as a Jew) or a terrorist.

Posted by Freddie | July 26, 2007 8:08 PM

Re Don Williams

1. As Mr. Simpsons' lawyer, Yale Galanter, has pointed out, the book was ghost written by a writer who made up the chapter describing the killings out of whole cloth. As a matter of fact, the description therein is inconsistent with the forensic evidence.

2. Mr. Dershowitz was not O. J. Simpsons' attorney. He was hired as a contingency, in the event there was a conviction, to handle any appeal.

3. The accusation that Mr. Dershowitz did not show the proper respect for Ron Goldman is apparently based on the fact that he would represent Mr. Simpson in the event of an appeal of a conviction. I guess by that logic Stephen Jones, who defended Timothy McVey in the trial of the Oklahoma City Bombing case, was indifferent to the suffering of those killed and maimed in the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Mr. Williams sounds like a clone of Nancy Grace with his apparent contempt for criminal defense attorneys. Instead of blameing Mr. Dershowitz et. al. for the failure to convict Mr. Simpson, Mr. Williams might well consider the total incompetence of airhead Marsha and dimwit Darden the prosecutors in the case. Having watched the entire trial, I can only say that they deserved to lose.

Re Freddie

Mr. Freddie, someone like Finkelstein who associates with terrorists (Hizbollah), antisemites, and Holocaust deniers is not in a position to complain when he is tarred with the same brush. If Finkelstein doesn't like being accused of terrorism, antisemitism, and Holocaust denial, the answer is simple: don't associate with those kinds of people. Period, end of story.

Posted by SLC | July 26, 2007 8:38 PM

Mr. Freddie, someone like Finkelstein who associates with terrorists (Hizbollah), antisemites, and Holocaust deniers is not in a position to complain when he is tarred with the same brush. If Finkelstein doesn't like being accused of terrorism, antisemitism, and Holocaust denial, the answer is simple: don't associate with those kinds of people. Period, end of story.

...and you've never read anything he's written. Right?

Look, you're quoting an article by Alan Dershowitz, who is Finkelstein's nemesis, who is personally responsible for getting Finkelstein's tenure denied (for the crime of criticizing Israel), who was accused by Finkelstein of plagiarism (and it looks pretty damning to me), and is writing in the Jerusalem Post. And from this sole piece of evidence, you expect me to swallow your opinion? I cannot imagine a more biased piece of work than what you posted to. Give me a break.

Posted by Freddie | July 26, 2007 8:52 PM

"Johnny" spews:

What I find most amusing about Max's transparent video is in the fact that he mentions that thousands came to see Hagee, but Blumenthal chose a very select portion of the "flock" to interview for his piece.

Yeah, you'd like to sidetrack things, wouldn't you? Forget about your pathetic attempt at distraction. Right there in the video is Hagee instructing his dupes to pray for a pre-emptive nuclear attack on Iran!!! If you're gonna try and minimize *that* little theological eccentricity, then you're either a nutcase yourself, or a disingenuous sack of shit.

Posted by sglover | July 26, 2007 8:57 PM

SLC thinks Finkelstein is an anti-semitic Holocaust denier. I bet that will come as news to Finkelstein's parents.

but SLC isn't an anti-Arab racist, some of his best friends are Syrians.

Posted by mrs. ibrahim al-jafaari | July 26, 2007 8:57 PM

I cannot imagine a more biased piece of work than what you posted to. Give me a break.

Clearly, you are unfamiliar with the standard SLC posting.

Posted by mrs. ibrahim al-jafaari | July 26, 2007 9:03 PM

RE SLC comment: "The accusation that Mr. Dershowitz did not show the proper respect for Ron Goldman is apparently based on the fact that he would represent Mr. Simpson in the event of an appeal of a conviction. I guess by that logic Stephen Jones, who defended Timothy McVey in the trial of the Oklahoma City Bombing case, was indifferent to the suffering of those killed and maimed in the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Mr. Williams sounds like a clone of Nancy Grace with his apparent contempt for criminal defense attorneys"
------------

1) Actually, my contempt largely extends to those who argue --when PAID to be on a defense team -- that the police and jury must dot every i and cross every T exactly right and perfectly -- and who then turn around and make an argument for torture in the justice system when it fits their political agenda.

2) Alan Dershowitz on the OJ Simpson case:

"Total_Package27 asks: What is it like to defend someone who, in the eyes of the public, is guilty?
Alan Dershowitz: That's my job. If the public ever believed somebody to be innocent, I probably wouldn't take the case. A good lawyer should want to take the hardest cases, the most unpopular defendants, and the least likely to succeed. Just as a good surgeon would more likely take a difficult operation, rather than a nose job. Statistically, most of my clients are guilty. Statistically, most people charged with crimes in America, are guilty. And thank God for that. Would we want to live in a country where most people charged are innocent? That might be true in Libya, or China, but not here.

Total_Package27 asks: Do you think OJ was guilty?
Alan Dershowitz: The code of Professional Responsibility precludes a lawyer from stating his opinions about the guilt or innocence of a client. I probably know no more about the facts of the case than most observers. I can say this: had I been on the jury in the civil case, based on the evidence submitted in that case, I probably would have voted the way the jury voted"
REF: http://www.time.com/time/community/transcripts/1999/060999dershowitz.html

3) Alan Dershowitz after Sept 11 (probably hysterically imagining an Al Qaeda crosshair on his back. After all, they would never overlook such an IMPORTANT TARGET, would they?)

"An application for a torture warrant would have to be based on the absolute need to obtain immediate information in order to save lives coupled with probable cause that the suspect had such information and is unwilling to reveal it.

The suspect would be given immunity from prosecution based on information elicited by the torture. The warrant would limit the torture to nonlethal means, such as sterile needles, being inserted beneath the nails to cause excruciating pain without endangering life. "

Ref:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/22/ED5329.DTL

Posted by Don Williams | July 26, 2007 10:09 PM

"At least give Alan Dershowitz credit for this -- although I disagree with him on a number of things, he is one of the few strongly pro-Isreal jews who actually call out these nuts for who they are, and actively so."

Has he ever called AIPAC out on their alliance?

Posted by Reality Man | July 27, 2007 2:45 AM

Everybody, stopped getting sidetracked into SLC's obsession with Finklestein. He brings him into every thread because he thinks if he makes it about Finklestein, he'll win. Also notice how here he has no real problem with AIPAC allying with people who want to have Russia use their nukes to kill all the Jews living in Israel, people who probably think that the Holocaust was justified and wasn't big enough, but obsesses with over whether or not Finklestein is connected to Hezbollah. Finklestein has no real influence on American policy. Only a few people with a high level of interest in the I-P conflict know or care who he is. However, these anti-Semites-for-Israel groups actually mobilize a decent number of people into supporting the Republicans and their position on Israeli-American relations. It's like how conservatives obsess over somebody as insignificant as Ward Churchill two years after he wrote his stupid piece but ignore torture done in our name.

Posted by Reality Man | July 27, 2007 2:50 AM

t's like how conservatives obsess over somebody as insignificant as Ward Churchill two years after he wrote his stupid piece but ignore torture done in our name.

That's a very good point.

Posted by Freddie | July 27, 2007 8:23 AM

Re Freddie

The allegations against Mr. Dershowitz were investigated by a committee at Harvard and were found to be without merit. Despite this, Dr. Finkelstein continues to make the plagiarism accusations, along with his far left antisemitic pals at the Counterpunch web site. By the way, the officials at DePaul University have clearly stated that the campaign orchestrated by Mr. Dershowitz had no affect on their decision, and in fact, was counterproductive to its declared aim.

Re Don Williams.

1. Mr. Williams points to a statement that Mr. Dershowitz probably would have voted for the plaintiffs in the O.J. Simpson civil case as proof that he believes Mr. Simpson to be guilty. Of course, Mr. Williams neglects a few facts, which is his usual MO. For one thing, the burden of proof in a civil case is a preponderance of the evidence while in a criminal case, its proof beyond a reasonable doubt. For another thing, the competence of the plaintiffs' attorneys, particularly Daniel Petrocelli, in the civil case was far superior to airhead Marsha and dimwit Darden in the criminal case. The plaintiffs' attorneys did not make the numerous mistakes the prosecutors made. Given these facts, there is nothing at all untoward with a claim that both the criminal and civil juries arrived at the correct decisions, based on the cases which they heard.

2. Mr. Williams accuses the lawyers for Mr. Simpson of requiring the investigating officers to dot every i and cross every t. That's exactly what defense attorneys are supposed to do. As an example, the Simpson defense attorneys have been heavily criticized for what appears to be nitpicking concerning the evidence collection activities of the LAPD. Just to point out how incompetent the latter were, lead criminalist Dennis Fung testified that the only reason he would wear booties over his shoes would be to protect his shoes! Today, evidence collectors wear special protective clothing which resembles NASA space suits when collecting evidence at a crime scene.

3. Mr. Williams is apparently upset that Mr. Dershowitz would have the temerity to represent guilty clients in court. For the information of Mr. Williams, Mr. Dershowitz doesn't represent clients in trial court; he is an appellate attorney who argues cases before appellate courts. For another thing, even apparently guilty clients are entitled to be represented in trial courts. As a for instance, the 3 Duke lacrosse players were tried and found guilty by the cable talk show hosts like Nancy Grace after their indictment. I suppose that Mr. Williams would have criticized their attorneys at the time for being hired guns to defend obviously guilty men.

4. Mr. Williams is apparently upset that Mr. Dershowitz got paid for his activities in the Simpson case. For the information of Mr. Williams, most of the cases Mr. Dershowitz takes on are pro bono. In addition, Mr. Dershowitz has no problem defending clients who he despises. Case in point, Matthew Hale, a notorious antisemite who Mr. Dershowitz represented in Illinois in an appeal from the Illinois bar associations' refusal to grant the former a law license. Of course, if Mr. Williams really wants to stick it to Mr. Dershowitz, I would point out his statement concerning Hitler. Mr. Dershowitz has publicly stated that he would have defended Hitler in court if he had been captured alive and would have gotten him off.

Re Reality Man

I would have to respectively disagree with Mr. Reality Man as to the insignificance of Norman Finkelstein. The fact of Dr. Finkelsteins' Jewish background and his association with various Israel bashing groups provides those groups with instant credibility. After all, how can they be antisemitic when this Jewish person, Dr. Finkelstein is associated with them? In fairness, Dr. Finkelstein is not the only one. We also have such individuals as Noam Chomsky, Adam Shapiro, and my Falls Church neighbor Steven Spector around to provide cover for the stormfronts, the counterpunches, and the David Dukes of the world.

Re mrs. ibrahim al-jafaari

Dr. Finkelstein waited until his parents had died before embarking on his antisemitic Israel bashing activities, including his current dubious associations. I would be willing to bet that they would have disowned him if they were still alive to read his crap.

Posted by SLC | July 27, 2007 9:59 AM

Re "Mr. Williams neglects a few facts, which is his usual MO."
----------
SLC, The above comment --and Your passionate argument that Alan Dershowitz is a champion for the rights of the accused -- is kinda made hilarious by you averting your eyes from the ..er.. torture thing.

Posted by Don Williams | July 27, 2007 10:44 AM

Re Don Williams

Relative to Mr. Dershowitzs' position on the use of torture, I seem to recall, based on an interview with him that I heard, that he would restrict its application to cases of eminent threat. For instance, if authorities had information that a nuclear device had been planted somewhere in a city and they had captured one of the alleged perpetrators, or alternatively someone who they believed had pertinent information as to its location, he would be in favor of using torture techniques to extract information as to the location of the device. I suspect that if Mr. Don Williams were a resident of such a city, he too would not be adverse to using strong means to extract that location. If Mr. Dershowitz has gone beyond that limited application to include, for instance, using torture to extract confessions, I would be in total disagreement with him. In addition, I understand that Mr. Dershowitz has proposed obtaining judicial warrants for applying strong arm techniques to extract information. Again, if he is going beyond exigent circumstances, I would not be in agreement with him (actually, in the case of exigent circumstances, there probably isn't time to obtain a "torture warrant"). However, the fact that Mr. Dershowitz may have opinions on these matters that differ from mine or Mr. Williams in no way, shape, form, or regard detracts from his defense of indigent appellant clients. Or by the way from his defense of the rights of Arabs arrested in Israel. My understanding is that he has argued cases for a number of such individuals before the Israeli Supreme Court. Not to mention his defense of Natan Sharanskys' right to emigrate to Israel in the courts of the former Soviet Union. All pro bono. I'll stack up Mr. Dershowitzs' record of standing up for human rights against anybody who Mr. Williams cares to name, including his hero Ramsay Clark.

Posted by SLC | July 27, 2007 1:34 PM

Re SLC's comment "Relative to Mr. Dershowitzs' position on the use of torture, I seem to recall, based on an interview with him that I heard, that he would restrict its application to cases of eminent threat. "
--------
You shouldn't have to vaguely RECALL anything -- I gave you the link to Dershowitz's column.

Re "eminent threat", I assume you mean "imminent threat". But the scenario Dershowitz uses to justify judical torture is extremely unrealistic -- it's the type of bullshit Fox puts up on the tv show 24. Propaganda disguised as entertainment -- because the gullible swallow bullshit more easily if you make it simple and entertainly.

Anyone with the SLIGHTEST knowledge of covert operations knows that you keep knowledge extremely compartmented. There's no one out there to tell you where the bomb is because the only people who should know that are driving the truck or boat with the bomb. You use dead drops, one-way shortwave broadcasts with messages encrypted in the unbreakable one time pad, and anonymous cut-outs.

You don't let planners move into hostile areas of operations. You give agents complete cover ids and complete stories so that they don't reveal themselves as agents -- and if they are caught during non-denible clandestine activities, you have coached them in plausible lies that take days to disprove --by which time it is too late. Plus, you give them suicide pills.

The Brits worked this out back in WWII when they sent terrorists --excuse me, "resistance fighters" into occupied France.

Yet Dershowitz chose to advocate dismantling our most fundamental legal precept --our ban on "cruel and unusual punishment" without bothering to research the subject to see if his proposal would actually be of any benefit.

Without stopping to consider that once you start down this path, there's no stopping. First you torture foreigner terrorists -- then it's domestic terrorists -- then it's anti-war protestors (see Argentina in the 1970s) until you have a society that is worst than what our enemies would levy on us.

That's not the actions of a man who sincerely believes in human rights, in my opinion.

Posted by Don Williams | July 27, 2007 3:27 PM

SLC why don't you just skip the middleman and call people who disagree with you anti-Semites? It's so much easier than making an argument, and it has served your side so well. I mean, really, why restrict yourself to discussions of Israel at all? Why not just call anyone who holds a different opinion than yours anti-Semitic?

Posted by Freddie | July 27, 2007 4:38 PM

Re Don Williams

I think that Mr. Williams has been reading too many John LeCarre novels. The fact is that any number of homicide bombings have been stopped by the Shin Bet in Israel because of arrests of plotters and hangers on who turned out to have information as to the plans and destinations of would be homicide bombers. Most of these clowns spilled their guts with very little pressure being applied (and by the way none of them had "poison pills" on them). The fact is that most terrorists are not professional spys and most of them, like most criminals, are not very bright, fortunately for the good guys.

Re Freddie

As I have stated, I don't know whether Norman Finkelstein is an antisemite. I just know that he associates with a lot of antisemites, like our friend Don Williams here.

Posted by SLC | July 27, 2007 5:38 PM

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Posted by skdif eyrvkncs | August 7, 2007 3:36 PM