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16 Jul 2007 10:44 am

Ezra Klein makes the case for a regulatory guarantee of more vacation. I agree 100 percent with his analysis of the situation, but I'm not totally sure I agree with the conclusion. One reason is that unlike with a lot of other juicy liberal regulatory schemes, the price to be paid in terms of economic growth is real enough in this case. Less work equals less output in a straightforward way.

There's also the basic fact that I'd be pretty pissed, personally, if I were made to accept more vacation days in exchange for less pay. It's clear that the equilibrium that results from the current free market system isn't to everyone's liking, but realistically there's no way you can arrange things to the taste of every citizen of a giant country. What's more, I'm actually not all that worried by the prospect that associates at large corporate law firms aren't getting a fair shake from the labor market -- they have clear opportunities to change jobs if they don't like what they're getting.

Lawyers aside there are, of course, also going to be working class people with fewer economic options who might like more vacation days. They make a better object of sympathy. But at the same time, a working class person forced to go on vacation when he would have rather put in another week on the job to earn the money he needs to complete some home repairs gets more of our sympathy than does the hypothetical professional blogger who wants more salary and less vacation. In a parallel to the climate change case, the crux of the matter is that poor people should have more overall compensation and mandating more vacation time won't accomplish that -- it'll leave working class people with more time off and less money to use that time off doing fun stuff (I can't be the only one who's sometimes been reluctant to vacation not because I couldn't take the time off but because I couldn't afford to spend the money).

Last, one should consider retirement as a factor here. If you worked 50 weeks a year for 40 years and then retired, you'd have 2000 weeks worth of earnings to work with in your golden years. If you wanted 2000 weeks worth of savings on the basis of a 46 week year, you'd have to work 3.5 extra years. Under the circumstances, it's not totally clear to me that additional mandatory vacation necessarily results in more leisure over the course of a lifetime. All-in-all, I'm inclined to say let's take the higher GDP level and the additional tax revenue that implies, and spend the revenue providing people with more services.

Photo by Flickr user Jon Worth used under a Creative Commons license

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Comments (41)

> Less work equals less output in a
> straightforward way.

The statistics have been fairly clear for the last 30 years that the Japanese work 80 hours/week, the Americans work 60 hours/week, and the Germans work 37.5 hours/week and all three cultures have essentially equivalent and very high productivity. Similarly my European coworkers with 6 weeks vacation always seemed to get as much work done per year as the Americans with 2. Taking the other 4 weeks vacation away does not assure more output in any straightforward sense.

In an hourly piecework rate job (which is essentially what you have as a full-time blogger) this _might_ be the case. I stress might because extensive research in the 1920s and 1930s showed quite clearly that without certain amounts of rest and even (gasp) vacation time piecework productivity went down past a certain number of hours per day and per year.

Cranky

The Sandwichman from over at Max's place ought to add his two cents -- I am not sure that

"Less work equals less output in a straightforward way."

is a true statement. Certainly there is some truth to it, but on the edges it is certainly not true -- the reductio case of the hypothetical 24 hour working day proves that. And I there is evidence in our own country that the freemarket is not good at figuring this out on its own, I think, with the 40hr/week regulation.

There is a balance to be struck here, and like you I am more inclined not to regulate this kind of thing with the given evidence, but I would be wary of thining your analysis is straightforward, and as always, continue to analyze the evidence both in terms of productivity and preferences.

"But at the same time, a working class person forced to go on vacation when he would have rather put in another week on the job to earn the money he needs to complete some home repairs gets more of our sympathy than does the hypothetical professional blogger who wants more salary and less vacation." But why make _that_ comparison? Why not compare your first working-class person with another working-class person who would dearly love to spend more time with his family, or, for that matter, would be able to do the home repairs himself (and for cheaper) if he only had the time? And what if there are a lot more working-class persons in the latter category than in the former? (That last question is meant literally, not rhetorically -- I have no idea what the survey data look like for such questions, or if such data even exist.)

"a working class person forced to go on vacation when he would have rather put in another week on the job to earn the money he needs to complete some home repairs gets more of our sympathy than does the hypothetical professional"
It's supposed to be paid vacation. Your working class person would get his pay check and have time to work on the house.

"Less work equals less output in a straightforward way."

Not necessarily so, if phrased a little differently. Sandwichman at Sawicky's did a lot of work on Walras, Chapman, Hicks that I wouldn't wish to mischaracterize, and was a long series that I can't link, but if you're interested, try "I am the Walras" as a search term on the blog.

Umm, I think neo-classical economics considers output per man hour as linear in the models, meaning the 100th weekly hour is just as efficient as the first. Sandwichman, referencing Chapman, shows that both Capital and Labour have incentives to go for more hours per person than is actually optimal for output efficiency.

Etc or whatver. The point is that the efficent choice is to hire a second worker, and provide vacations. Some economist should take over here.

major pwnage

There is definitely a question of what people want here. Put it on the table: see how people respond. You can't argue that one or the other is fundamentally more just. Its a reasonable democratic question.

Just to reemphasize - Matthew is a 20-something person holding what amounts to a piecework job. I too worked long successions of 20-hour days when I was in my 20s because (a) it was what society demanded (b) I thought it was necessary and good.

Like most people who do this, when I hit my 30s and family and personal health issues arrived I had enough perspective to look back and realize I had been taken advantage of quite brutally. This becomes crystal clear when you burn up your 20s and your health to build a career and your employer then does a mass layoff and leaves you standing on the street.

Cranky

OT - I just did a search of the names of all the major bloggers and media figures I could think of in the Federal Election Commission database of contributions over $200 to the presidential candidates. The only one I could find was... Matt Yglesias, $250 for Obama.

Good choice, Matt.

I can't be the only one who's sometimes been reluctant to vacation not because I couldn't take the time off but because I couldn't afford to spend the money

i've never had a problem with sitting at home, for a vacation. i always have a half-dozen projects going on that i'd be more than happy to spend a full week on.

What I'd like to see would be more ability to take unpaid leave. I don't know if there would be a regulatory change that would help, or whether it's simply a cultural problem, but that seems a better solution than mandating more paid vacation.

i think your entire argument here is a straw man. as dc pointed out above, the difference between the u.s. and the other countries is a difference in paid vacation.

there may be loss of productivity for the economy as a whole (though some, like Cranky Observer above, would argue with that premise), but on an individual level we're talking about increased time off with no loss of pay. it's hard to imagine any person being against that. and, in any case, you're always free not to take all your allocated vacation time if you don't want to.

it'll leave working class people with more time off and less money to use that time off doing fun stuff (I can't be the only one who's sometimes been reluctant to vacation not because I couldn't take the time off but because I couldn't afford to spend the money).

You, sir, have just deployed the moose. Thank you for making this completely excellent point! What good does more vacation time do for a person who has less money to spend on fun? I don't take vacation time because I love my job so much; it's because I can't afford to travel, and I don't want to spend a week off sitting around my apartment.

The other thing you're missing here, as also explained by Ezra, is that a lack of paid vacation encourages a situation of a collective action problem. I could take 2-4 weeks of vacation each year, but if my coworker doesn't take any vacation then I'll be passed over for promotion, get smaller raises, etc. The situation has become a race to the bottom for time employed and the like, where people work overtime constantly just to keep up with everyone else working overtime and no vacations are taken.

It seems like the case for shorter work weeks is stronger than longer vacations--fewer hours would mean more time spent with families, cooking meals, getting better nutrition, catching up on sleep--stuff that might actually improve our productivity, whereas vacations could end up just an excuse to waste money doing tourist stuff.

"It's supposed to be paid vacation. Your working class person would get his pay check and have time to work on the house"

So if it's a "paid vacation" the money just appears magically? You really think this working-class person's employer is going to pay him just the same to work 40 weeks a year as he paid when he worked 50 weeks a year?

What cleek said. You don't have to spend money on holiday. You can catch up on things like Civilization IV and your DVD/PVR backlog as well.

Geez, Matt. You need to stop hanging out with so many libertarians. Don't you know any leftist economists?

... the price to be paid in terms of economic growth is real enough in this case. Less work equals less output in a straightforward way.

I suppose. Perhaps we should then support fewer vacations and longer hours to increase output and growth? Was the five-day work week a bad idea? Surely the maximization of total productive output is not the only macroeconomic social goal worth aiming at.

There is also the possibility to be considered that more rejuvenating leisure along with better health care can actually lead to higher productivity, thus offsetting the lost labor hours ceded back in the form of vacation time, and maintaining aggregate production.

There's also the basic fact that I'd be pretty pissed, personally, if I were made to accept more vacation days in exchange for less pay.

Perhaps then we should seek a public policy and regulatory scheme that aims at more vacation time with the same or higher overall pay. Can't be done? Oh, I'll bet you could think of such a scheme if you really tried.

Ultimately, the question is how we direct more of the fruits of our total productive output downward, toward the bottom 70%, say, and away from the tippy top. Whether that redistribution of compensation for labor comes in the form of higher pay, more time off, or both is a pleasant social choice we can be faced with in the context of a bigger piece of the pie for the majority of Americans.

Of course if you believe the compensation arrangements that arise "naturally" are all the work of the genius of the invisible hand, which finds the most efficient equilibrium on its own through the magic of free market prices for labor, and that it is thus impossible to deliberately redistribute compensation without damaging production, then there is little reason for any regulation of markets. To think redistribution makes sense, it helps if you reject market fundamentalism and take seriously the possibility that a good part of what we call the "free market" is a rather inefficient pyramid racket for the systematic and distributed exploitation of others' labor, and that there are many people near the top of our economy who are grotesquely over-incentivized, and would still perform their needed managerial roles in the system of production even if they received far less compensation (or else would easily be replaced with equally talented people who accept those lower levels of compensation).

Finally, one has to consider the fact that increased leisure and pay at the bottom leads to greater demand for consumption, as people find ways to spend their money and fill their leisure time, and that this increased demand stimulates more production and creates more well-paying jobs.

> There is also the possibility to be
> considered that more rejuvenating leisure
> along with better health care can actually
> lead to higher productivity,

Be careful: if you include "old-age pensions" in that mix you are on the turf of a real bleeding-heart liberal politician.

To whom do I refer? Why that would be Otto von Bismark.

Cranky

"Of course if you believe the compensation arrangements that arise "naturally" are all the work of the genius of the invisible hand, which finds the most efficient equilibrium on its own through the magic of free market prices for labor, and that it is thus impossible to deliberately redistribute compensation without damaging production, then there is little reason for any regulation of markets."

That's not true at all, even from an economic libertarian's POV. The reason for regulating the labor market has nothing to do with maximizing production -- it's all about promoting other values. Take the minimum wage -- most economists agree that it probably results in somewhat less efficient labor market. All other things being equal, unemployment is slightly higher than it would be without the minimum wage, although this effect is very small with our minimum wage as low as it is. But that doesn't mean there's no reason for the minimum wage. You have a minimum wage in order to guarantee some base standard of living for everyone who has a job. It's an anti-poverty program, not an economic-growth program.

I'd do a bunch of research to show why MY is all wrong about this, but the truth is I'm too tired b/c I haven't had a vacation in 10 f_ng years.

Too contrarian by half, Matt. In fact, you really should add in some fluff about the protestant work ethic or some such crap and submit the revision to Slate.

One factor that leads employers to disfavor vacation time is per-employee overhead. Get employers out of the health insurance business and they'll be more willing to hire more workers rather squeeze people out of vacations.

_"I'm actually not all that worried by the prospect that associates at large corporate law firms aren't getting a fair shake from the labor market -- they have clear opportunities to change jobs if they don't like what they're getting."_

I'd agree that we ought not cry that much for associates at law firms. Mostly they knew (or should have known) what they were getting. And they _do_ have opportunities to change jobs if they want, but not the sort that most people might think. So, a jr. associate at a top firm in NY now makes between 130-160K/year to start. They will also work between 60 (minimum) and 80 hours a week, at least 50, maybe 51 weeks a year, for several years. The step down from that is a _big_ step. To work closer to 40 hours a week most would have to go down in pay (for a starting person, again) to about 38K/year. Even for that money they might well work 50-60 hours a week. It would be great if there were lots of law jobs around that payed 65-80K/year and had 30-40 hour work weeks, but there are not. (There might be a few, but not for Jr. associates.) So, while we certainly should not feel sorry for these folks, even their choices are significantly more limited than Matt seems to imply above.

Oh oh oh oh applecor that's fricking brilliant.

I agree with boring commenter.

Why does the vacation have to be paid? I'd like to see more opportunity for unpaid leave, and then people could choose for themselves how much vacation they want.

I propose a compromise. Set some relatively high bar, say, 150k per year (and index it for inflation). If your employer is paying you above that rate, there would be no statutory vacation requirement, and the market would decide. Below that, and mandatory vacation minimums apply.

This way, the vast majority of workers would get a guaranteed vacation, and we'd avoid these "race to the bottom scenarios." Moreover, highly paid workers would almost certainly still enjoy pretty generous vacation benefits, because competition for their much sought-after skills would require employers to offer decent vacation benefits.

If you worked 50 weeks a year for 40 years and then retired, you'd have 2000 weeks worth of earnings to work with in your golden years. If you wanted 2000 weeks worth of savings on the basis of a 46 week year, you'd have to work 3.5 extra years.

Working until I'm 63.5 instead of retiring at 60 seems like a tiny price to pay if I get to spend summer vacation hanging around with my daughter instead of being stuck at the office.

Matt, you ought to actually look at the paper on law associates. The whole point is that they can't change to "slacker track" jobs because any law firm that offered those jobs would soon be overrun by crappy hires. The argument for government regulation here (including basics that no one wants to get rid of like the 40 hour week) is that, at least arguably, the market does not do a good job of translating individual preferences into outcomes. One powerful piece of evidence for this is that in the US, just as in supposedly less libertarian regimes, everyone has to accept the same terms of employment, even though appetite for work presumably varies across a broad spectrum.

"Under the circumstances, it's not totally clear to me that additional mandatory vacation necessarily results in more leisure over the course of a lifetime."

Spoken like a 20-something with no responsibilities and no ties to his local community.

Vacation time does not equal leisure. People have families. They have children who get sick, who get into trouble, who need their parents from time to time. They have community responsibilities, like sports teams and PTA and local civic associations. They have parents who become ill and die. They have brothers and sisters with kids, and they would like their own kids to know their cousins.

We're not talking about spending time on the beach now versus time on the beach when we're sixty-five. We're talking about making a life that has some sort of continuity and meaning among family and friends. We're talking about being able to go to a funeral, a couple of teacher meetings, and a four-day out of town visit for Thanksgiving without having to forego a summer vacation.

What I'd like to see would be more ability to take unpaid leave. I don't know if there would be a regulatory change that would help, or whether it's simply a cultural problem, but that seems a better solution than mandating more paid vacation.

This seems like a reasonable solution. Mandating that employers let workers take up to 4 weeks vacation, and leave it up to the employer to decide how many of those they want to pay.

That would allow people who actually want to exchange salary for vacation to do so, but avoid the situation where vacation is forced on people who don't want it.

One problem is that it is not, in practice, possible to contract for a lower salary & shorter hours/more vacation in otherwise comparable positions. Employers: (1) don't tend to offer that, and (2) cannot be held to promises about vacation & work hours for salaried employees.

Also keep in mind that the business model of most law firms (and most other businesses that sell employee time) makes it much more cost-effective to have one person work 80 hours/week than two people to work 40 each. You're essentially doubling the overhead in the latter situation. So the salary would have to be more than halved. Probably reduced by 2/3.

"I could take 2-4 weeks of vacation each year, but if my coworker doesn't take any vacation then I'll be passed over for promotion, get smaller raises, etc."


Life is full of trade offs.

Re: I could take 2-4 weeks of vacation each year, but if my coworker doesn't take any vacation then I'll be passed over for promotion, get smaller raises, et


???
How do you know this. Maybe your coworker has to work more hours because he's inefficient, spends half his time gabbing on the phone, has to redo work poorly done the first time etc. Companies do care about the quality of work not just the quantity, and if you can get more done even with your vacation they'll be happy with the quantity too. So take your vacation, you're not helping yourself, just throwing away time and money foolishly. And you know, you can always make more money, but time once lost is gone forever. It may be a cliche, but no one on their deathbed regrets not having worked longer hours.

JonF, there's been tons of surveys on this. When people are asked why they don't use their vacation time, damage to their career is one of the main reasons given. Maybe a huge percentage of the American workforce are simply paranoid, but not working in their offices personally I'll give them some benefit of the doubt.

I'm with Dan, a refusal to see the way this is a collective action problem of the sort solvable by regulation and the simple-minded assumptions about productivity that fly in the face of cross-national data point to the sort of silly libertarian thinking our host is usually good about avoiding.

"Less work equals less output in a straightforward way."

I'm glad many commenters have taken you to task for this. Because it's out and out false. If you cannot rest, over time, your productivity ends up in the toilet, and "more work equals less output in a not-so-straightforward way." People *need* time off. They are *not* perfect machines that obey the will of their masters!

The argument that we'd be less productive if we had the law require businesses to act a touch more responsibly with regard to employees' need for rest and vacation settles anything if, and only if, we're quite sure that any reduction in productivity from reduced hours of work would for sure be bad. "Unconvinced" doesn't begin to cover my skepticism.

And anyone who hasn't yet checked out the link Bob provided to the Maxspeak piece about how both capital and labor end up advocating too long, unproductive work loads really should. It's dynamite stuff.

Re: Maybe a huge percentage of the American workforce are simply paranoid, but not working in their offices personally I'll give them some benefit of the doubt.

I think they're paranoid, and worse I think they're fools, and I have little sympathy for their whining (and yes, I always use my own vacation time and don't give a hoot who doesn't where I work. And I do by the way have sympathy for people whose jobs do not offer paid vacation, but that's another situation entirely). Moreover my final point still stands: why does it matter? Again: when you are on your deathbed you will not be regetting that you didn't work longer hours. Get your values straight. Money isn't the be-all and end-all of human existence. Quit playing their game. You're part of the problem if you do.

Less work equals less output in a straightforward way.

IIRC, this one was more or less settled in the 1930s after Henry Ford started paying his workers real money and giving them time to spend things. The optimum work week for maximum productivity is IIRC around 40 hours (and job dependent). If you work longer than that you make mistakes which need to be undone - and someone working 60 hours will make sufficient mistakes that they will have less useful output than someone working 40 hour weeks*. It certainly isn't a simple relationship - and doesn't exist in the way you think.

(Some of the research can be found here - but google seemed to be unforthcoming generally).

* This is a long term average - 60 hour weeks will remain more productive than 40 hour weeks for anything up to a month, but then need time off to recover back to the previous level of efficiency.

"If you worked 50 weeks a year for 40 years and then retired, you'd have 2000 weeks worth of earnings to work with in your golden years. If you wanted 2000 weeks worth of savings on the basis of a 46 week year, you'd have to work 3.5 extra years. Under the circumstances, it's not totally clear to me that additional mandatory vacation necessarily results in more leisure over the course of a lifetime."

My grandfather *rarely* took any time off. He was a mechanic and carpenter. My grandparents had many plans for when he retired. They were going to move out of the city, travel, and, spend more time with their family.

My grandmother died at 62. My grandfather never lived to retire. They never did the things they wanted to do because those things were always saved for later. Only there never was a later.

Working class people who do not get paid time off or sick time are more likely to be overworked and neglect their health. While it sounds great to say "I'll have 3.5 years more of my retirement," some may never live that long. Or you may live that long, but, not be physically capable of doing the things you'd dreamed of.


Comments closed July 30, 2007.

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