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The Suburbanist Paradox

05 Jul 2007 08:42 am

Whenever I say that one key pillar of a viable strategy to curb global warming ought to be efforts to promote high-density living arrangements, I'm invariably confronted by a kind of circular argument that Ross captures well here, channeling Joel Kotkin but with my emphasis added:

The traditional unipolar urban downtown isn't going to make a comeback: Young couples with families can't afford to live there, and aging Baby Boomers don't want to. The American city of the future will be more of an archipelago of suburbs than the kind of one-downtown organism bred by the Industrial Revolution: "We aren't creating more New Yorks and Chicagos; we're creating more Los Angeleses.

There's the paradox. The urbanist proposal isn't "hey, jerks, why don't you all move to dense downtowns." Rather, the proposal is something like "why don't we impose carbon taxes so that things like driving long distances and heating or cooling large detached structures are priced in accordance with their social cost? Why don't we stop having the federal government heavily subsidize driving cars as the preferred mode of transportation? Why don't we have more areas that allow for high-density zoning, thus reducing the cost of urban housing?" It's not that we urbanists are unaware that many people live in low density areas because its cheaper, it's precisely that we are aware of this fact that makes us believe that the "traditional unipolar downtown" could make a comeback.

Now, will it come all the way back? Of course not. Douglas Rae's City quite brilliantly explains the connection between the high-tide of urbanism and a particular technological moment when the availability of fast, cheap rail and water transit and the total unavailability of cars encouraged very dense settlement patterns. Quite naturally, the combination of cars being invented, cars being massively subsidized, and governments being successfully lobbied by car companies to dismantle mass transit systems led to a massive shift in the direction of sprawl. But by that same token, if we step away from those policies to some extent we'll see a rebalancing in the direction of urbaism.

Neither Ross nor Kotkin cares to deny that the future will entail less driving. Instead, they rely on this aperçu "Telecommuting, not mass transit, is the wave of the future" (combined with the nonsensical observation that "if you take New York out of the equation, there are already more Americans telecommuting today than taking mass transit"; by the same token if you ignore the three percent of Americans who do the most telecommuting very few people telecommute!), but why choose? It seems to me that the thing to say is that the cost of driving should be priced more appropriately and that people will respond to that policy shift in a variety of ways.

This is all, I should say, a bit irrelevant to the issue of whether or not cities should have unipolar downtowns. Contra Kotkin, New York City, for example, is strongly multifocal just like LA. The cities have very different development patterns, but the existence or lack thereof of a unipolar downtown isn't the issue.

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Comments (115)

Right, I mean, I think if Europe can do it then we can do it too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Revised_petrol_use_urban_density.JPG

Of course there's some path dependency, and partly we're just richer, but a city like Amsterdam is ridiculously better for our health and our environment than a city like Houston, and it's not beyond our reach to make our cities more like Amsterdam.

Why not also focus on suburbs with decent mass transit systems? It's harder to implement on places where much has already been developed, like where I live, which is Long Island, but on communities that are just popping up, I imagine it'd be a lot easier. And then, if enough of these are built, perhaps the damage done by where I live won't be as bad.

I think that the result of the policies you encourage won't be moving into urban areas, but rather employers moving out of them.

It's already the case that much of the work which is done in office buildings in downtowns can be just as effectively accomplished from office parks in the suburbs. The fact of having large employers located in urban areas is largely a legacy of that "particular technological moment when the availability of fast, cheap rail and water transit and the total unavailability of cars encouraged very dense settlement patterns," and as incentives for workers change, I think you'll see changes in not just worker behavior, but employer behavior as well.

This is already happening to some extent, and making it more expensive/difficult to get into downtowns will certainly accelerate it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "governments being successfully lobbied by car companies to dismantle mass transit systems". High density areas in the country still have subsidized mass transit, and even Metro Detroit has a bus system. Detroit even has an elevated light rail that runs on a loop between the convention center, casinos, etc.

The first paved roads in this country were created because of the political pressure of the middle class and upper middle class, not because of car companies. Paved highways were partly created for military reasons.

Second, suburban living is popular with the middle class and upper middle class. The car only created the means to get to the suburbs, it did not create the urge. It may be difficult for an urban person to understand why people might like to live in a suburb or in a rural area, but it's definitely not a creation of the car companies.

Um, Kotkin is wrong. One of the largest demographics in revitalization of urban centers are aging baby-boomers who want to be near activities and amenities without having to drive everywhere (and don't want or cannot afford the Sun City-style golf cart driven communities). Anecdotally, the vast majority of my 30ish friends wish to marry and have kids in a more walkable urban communities, and not re-live our parents escape to a big home in the relatively faceless burbs.

Matthew largely misses the point.

Dense urban living requires MASSIVE Central Planning and Control to work --because of the large, complex systems required to make it secure: water, transport, electricity, heat, communications etc.

That , in turn, requires a government with strong powers which is also not corrupt. A largely infeasible proposition.

Massive amounts of UPFRONT capital investment are required -- vice the decentralized, evolutionary, market driven real estate development in which local government controls zoning and more powerful government entities focus largely on regional problems --pollution, water, regional transport corridors,etc.

No one risks such huge amounts of capital without assurance from a fascist government with dictatorial powers that all outcomes will be controlled for the benefit of the investors.

Plus dense cities are very inflexible -- if you've devoted enormous planning time, upfront capital etc to build such a structure, you don't want to tear it up a decade later to adjust to changed conditions. For example, to disperse the stock market across a wide geographical area and away from downtown because someone has left a big smouldering hole in the Manhattan area -- and threatens to leave more.

A mobile home is not as elegant as Monticello -- but it's easier to assemble a bunch of trailers together -- and later, tear them apart and send some of them elsewhere -- than it is to do the same with the Empire State Building.

I should mention that I loathe the environmental destruction caused by sprawl and the massive stupidity of our oil-driven systems -- as I've noted in some of my earlier posts. Plus anyone who's spent time in an European city like Rome tends to share Matthew's fondness for such living.

But to some extent, our real estate development is driven by our wish for decentralized government -- our wish to have control over decisions which influence our local environment and our childrens' schools. Decentralized government --> sprawl. Because real estate developers/corporations moving into an area can cherry pick between several local governments.

Color me skeptical, but I don't see how re-zoning is going to make most cities affordable. Isn't the problem not so much the lack of housing but rather the demand? A harsher tax on people with larger homes would be helpful to curb higher energy use, but how's that gonna get me into an apartment in Brooklyn? Are we gonna subsidize housing for upper-middle class families? We can't afford the city, the expense of which goes well beyond housing (day care!).

One of the interesting things about urban growth these days is the extent to which the "suburban archipelago" is reconfiguring itself to look more like traditional urban areas. Many booming sunbelt cities are beginning to pay more attention to their downtowns. Los Angeles is growing denser and recommitting itself to the development of rail transit, and the centers of suburban job growth here in Washington can't develop walkable, mixed-use developments fast enough.

I also think that the most amazing thing about telecommuting is how little of it there actually is. Businesses aren't stupid; it would be very easy for many or most office workers to work primarily from home, and the fact that this remains a fairly uncommon arrangement tells us something about the productive importance of a physical office environment. I'd also be interested in seeing what percentage of those who work from home nonetheless live in a central city.

Finally, I'd deny Ross' main contentions. Central cities are only expensive if you don't count the time and expense of long commutes for suburban residents. And boomers are returning to cities in large numbers in their old age.

But you're right, Matt. The key isn't necessarily a monopolar downtown arrangement--it's pricing transportation and housing correctly, thereby allowing cleaner and more efficient residential patterns to emerge.

Dense urban living requires MASSIVE Central Planning and Control to work --because of the large, complex systems required to make it secure: water, transport, electricity, heat, communications etc.

Umm..the suburbs and exurbs don't need planning for water, transport, electricity, heat, communications? Do only Amish survivalists live in these places? I never knew.


Plus dense cities are very inflexible

Yeah, we all know how multipurpose a Burger King structure on an outparcel is. The standard urban style building -- shops, etc. on street level, light-industrial loft space or apartments above, what the Romans called an insula or taberna, NOT the Empire State Bldg. -- is ridiculously flexible and repurposable: that's why it's been the standard urban style building in the West (and elsewhere?) for 2,500 years and they are hardly ever torn down.

"Douglas Rae's City quite brilliantly explains the connection between the high-tide of urbanism and a particular technological moment when the availability of fast, cheap rail and water transit and the total unavailability of cars encouraged very dense settlement patterns."

Plenty of high-density cities before the 19th century.

Repricing's not going to do it -- that's the tail end of the problem. Unless people have the opportunity to live in walkable communities, they won't. Infrastructure investment is what's going to do it.

I fail to see how you're going to unwind the employment situation. Take the DC metro area: the jobs are strung out in office parks all around the beltway. Car pooling is difficult because:

1) People don't all live in a central spot
2) People don't all have similar work times
3) People's needs for child care vary a lot

It's simply not feasible for most people to carpool, even when their neighbor works at the same place - children's activities make it too hard to coordinate.

There's a simple reason people live in suburbs and exurbs - and anecdotal "there's a move back!" evidence aside - the census numbers don't show such a move happening. Suburbs are cheaper, and they aren't going to get more expensive anytime soon. Again, where I live, you would have to be insane to move into Baltimore. Between the absurd property taxes, the high crime rate, and the crappy schools, it's a losing proposition. The downtown area is probably a draw for 20 somethings who are unmarried. As soon as they marry and think about kids, out they go, to Howard and Carrol counties.

If you could get the US use the tax system to force suburbanites to internalise the social costs of their activities, you would find urban living relatively cheaper. But the US middle classes have made enormous fixed investments in suburban living and no US politician is going to take it away from them. It can't be done.

Color me skeptical, but I don't see how re-zoning is going to make most cities affordable. Isn't the problem not so much the lack of housing but rather the demand?

There are different problems. Richer (i.e., middle class areas) tend to drive the price of housing up through zoning density caps (housing is going to be more expensive if you can only put four houses on every acre than if you can put in thirty "units" per acre). Poorer (i.e., inner city areas) are affordable, but rife with problems that drive demand down, such as school quality and crime. Which is why education, crime, police relations, and inequality in general are (to my mind) environmental issues, in addition to being issues in their own right.

Also, I'd say that one other problem is that the boom we're seeing now is going to lead with expensive housing, since it's new. But as that housing stock ages, it's going to become more affordable.

And, of course, it's not just zoning and transportation costs. Suburban malls, for instance, boomed not when cars became prevalent, but when the tax code changed how fast they depreciate, which made them quick investment opportunities and *waves hands* tax shelters, or some such.

Matt, it's not just that "governments [were] being successfully lobbied by car companies to dismantle mass transit systems." Rather, companies like GM took matters into their own hands, buying up street car companies and then actually destroying the streetcars.

Years later, GM was fined $5,000, while the CEOs of other companies found guilty were fined $1 each.

See the Great American Streetcar Scandal entry from Wikipedia for more:
"The Great American Streetcar Scandal, also known as the General Motors streetcar conspiracy refers to General Motors, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California and Phillips Petroleum forming National City Lines (NCL) holding company, which acquired most streetcar systems throughout the United States, dismantled them, and replaced them with buses in the early 20th Century. The scandal alleges that NCL's companies had an ulterior motive to forcibly gain mass use of the automobile among the U.S. population by buying up easy-to-use mass light rail transportation countrywide and dismantling it."

It should be fairly obvious that the reason we subsidize driving is the same reason why we have middle class entitlements like social security -- it's really popular! This doesn't make it good public policy (at least in the case of driving), but that's one of the downsides of elected government -- it's prone to doing unwise but popular things.

An interesting article on the urban development approaches and problems of Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver.

To a degree people worrying about the Beltway or Baltimore would seem to be missing the point as the first wave of policy is to tackle places like Houston, where things are *really* spread out...

There's no planning that can get ride of inner city pressure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUiM1Ixp6K4

The average American spends 20% of his income on car travel (purchase, maintenance, insurance, fuel). The more our built environment is oriented to low-density development, the more inflexible this system becomes. Can this be sustained over the long run? Even if suburbanites switch to Priuses, the cost to lost farmland, enviromental degradation, and the general loss of community will be profound.

Conservatives used to like conserve things (no more) but there is a reason for actual conservatives to take this debate away from libertarians like Wendell Cox, Joel Kotkin, Randal O'Toole, etc. If the cities we're building are basically garbage (sticks, stucco and tile), there will come a point when the nullity of this value system becomes apparent. Phoenix is a massive experiment in suburbanization, and many of its original housing pods from the 1950s are slums.

We can't grow Manhattan, Boston, Seattle, and San Francisco much but we ought to think about making places that are actually valuable. Instead of settling for the absolute lowest common denominator, we ought to build cities worth of our pride and ideals. Ceding this debate to philistines and ideologues of the right is like allowing decibel levels to determine the most important civic functions in our lives.

But the US middle classes have made enormous fixed investments in suburban living and no US politician is going to take it away from them. It can't be done.

And not just suburban v. urban: soon there'll be bumperstickers like "You Can Have My Gasoline When the Atlantic Comes and Gets It."

Lots of "overhead" associated with +6 billion people.

We need a significant gas tax and use the tax receipts to help cut payroll taxes and help mass transit OPERATING EXPENSES.

Then Adam Smith's magic will help push people into higher density living spaces.

New Urbanism is an aesthetic. It's annoying when people who should know better pretend it's something more, like good policy, good for the environment, etc.

What is amusing to me (in a sad way) is that if we as a nation started right now (7 years ago would have been better, but now isn't impossible) working on living arrangements, automobile fuel economy, fair pricing for externalities, etc we could probably figure out a way to save most of the features of exurbia that its proponents claim to love so much [1]. But if we wait until gas skyrockets to $5-$10/gal and our economy collapses we won't be able to save that or anything else.

So - will we as a nation be proactive? Naaaaw.

Cranky

[1] As opposed to the features that housing developers and highway builders love so much.

True enough, Cranky, but as a knowledgeable insider you can position yourself best for the high-priced gas collapse by moving back into the city center before everyone else wants to do so. Or have you already done so?

I'm moving from college-town-in-New-England to Big City myself, and did wonder for about a minute if this was the wrong decision if from the point of view of gas price upside and possible general rises in global temperatures...

What's with this "suburbia is cheaper" claim? Where I live, suburbia is more expensive (which is why low income people live in cities and older suburbs). Zoning laws usually mandate a certain size lot, which makes it only feasible to build large houses which are unaffordable for many people.
Same with commercial development- so many square ft. for parking, which means stores placed far apart, which are unreachable without a car.

Maybe in a sense that you live miles from an urban core with an hour or longer commute- but see above.

I agree that New Urbanism is largely an aesthetic movement and is largely BS. However, plain old urbanism has clear environmental and social benefits.

People keep thinking that a move away from suburbanism toward urbanism means moving to downtown Baltimore and being surrounded by dark skinned folk pushing drugs (yes, I am implying that fear of urbanism is driven by racism), or moving to Brooklyn where it's hard to find a decent apartment for a decent price. Actually it means something quite different. Everyone, obviously, can't live in the existing urban centers. There's not enough housing. But when, inevitably, we build new places to live, if we build them following a traditional urban model (which involves no more, and in many ways, substantially less government regulation than the suburban model) wen can achieve profound benefits. And, to the extent that urbanism means moving the middle class back to cities like Baltimore, well, that would make such cities less the basket cases they are today. In fact, just this sort of thing has happened on a small scale in many urban neighborhoods.

The sunk costs in suburban areas are no greater than the sunk costs in urban areas that were largely written off by the middle class following Brown vs. the Board of Education. Things can change. It just takes time. If it becomes to expensive to live in a suburb where you must drive everywhere you ever go, then people will change their behavior.

Rising gas prices will not, in the near or medium term, cause people to abandon suburban/exurban living. Too much low-hanging fruit around in the form of more fuel efficient vehicles and more telecommuting. As hard as it may be to believe, people like living in these kinds of places. And the fact that they're popular means that public policy is unlikely to be a useful tool for making them less popular.

What's with this "suburbia is cheaper" claim? Where I live, suburbia is more expensive (which is why low income people live in cities and older suburbs).

Suburbia is cheaper when compared to roughly equivalent (wrt the luxuriousness of fixtures, etc.) urban housing stock. Suburban homes usually have much more space, larger lots, and 'better' schools (IMO this benefit is often overstated, but class homogenity apparently equals 'good'). Most people dismiss the increased energy & transportation costs IME, because they often can't imagine driving less regardless of where they live.

Personally, I'd love to have a great urban-- well, as urban as a southern city allows-- bungalow in a neighborhood with sidewalks & service alleys, but they've been priced out of my range over the past few years. So I still rent, because the appeal of home ownership doesn't outweigh my distaste for suburban housing, no matter how much more affordable.

I think a few people are missing the point. No one is arguing that for most middle class families the suburbs isn't a better choice. Rigth now, due to bad policy, it is a much better choice. What Matthew is arguing (and I agre with him) is that subsidizing suburban and exurban living is bad policy. The issues people complain about with the city (high crime, crappy schools, high cost of housing, availability of child care) ought to be solved, rather than everyone just running away from the city when they have kids.

If you could get the US use the tax system to force suburbanites to internalise the social costs of their activities, you would find urban living relatively cheaper.

Then people who disagree with your ideal living arrangment will only pressure the government to use the tax system to force urbanites to internalize the social costs of urban life. For example, gay men tend to live in urban environments. Gay men have higher infection rate of HIV than straight suburban dwellers. HIV and AIDS put increased cost pressures on the medical industry. Therefore, urbanites should be taxed more for facilitating the gay lifestyle which spreads HIV. Do you really want a tax war amongst your fellow citizens because of the lifestyle choices they made?

Anecdotally, the vast majority of my 30ish friends wish to marry and have kids in a more walkable urban communities, and not re-live our parents escape to a big home in the relatively faceless burbs.

You are probably friends with these people because you like the same things. If you like to live in a more walkable urban community, wouldn't they as well?

Look, suburbs are popular because you can have a plot of land around you. You don't have have people not related to you live above you and below you. Nor do you have to share a wall. Many people find that appealing. Apparently, that doesn't matter to you. Why can't you all just enjoy the urban life you live without forcing others to do likewise? Sheesh, talk about your idealogues.

No sane human being actually likes living in the suburbs. Anyone who claims otherwise is lying.

The sunk costs in suburban areas are no greater than the sunk costs in urban areas that were largely written off by the middle class following Brown vs. the Board of Education.

On that basis, we need a shock equivalent to desegregation imposed by authorities outside the elected political process to get suburbanites to abandon their sunk costs. You'll be waiting a long time...

Is the argument that un-urbanites are subsidized because car companies are subsidized? How else are un-urbanites subsidized? Is this the only way?

I agree that New Urbanism is largely an aesthetic movement and is largely BS.

What's so wrong with an aesthetic movement? Shouldn't trump economics, but econ trumping livability is stupid too.

Dan wrote:

"No sane human being actually likes living in the suburbs. Anyone who claims otherwise is lying."


Wow. Good bet that the author of this line thinks of himself as:

1) Open minded
2) Knowledgable about the world and human nature
3) Non-parochial
4) Tolerant of diversity
5) Intelligent enough to appreciate subtleties

Irony frolics.

Do you really want a tax war amongst your fellow citizens because of the lifestyle choices they made?

That war is on-going and perpetual.

If you think people should be taxed to internalise health costs of life-style choices, that's a different discussion, but many would agree with you to some degree: internalise all social costs. It's not usually applied to sexual behaviour for a variety of reasons, including a mix of practicality and what might be called the right-to-a-sex-life. In any event, the relationship between suburbs and driving is vastly more direct than that between urban areas and HIV.

What Matthew is arguing (and I agre with him) is that subsidizing suburban and exurban living is bad policy

Do you have any hard numbers on what suburbs are subsidized as opposed to cities? My bet is that cities beat out suburbs far greater. It costs far more to subsidize light rail than a road.

People keep thinking that a move away from suburbanism toward urbanism means moving to downtown Baltimore and being surrounded by dark skinned folk pushing drugs (yes, I am implying that fear of urbanism is driven by racism),

Funny, in my Chicago suburban community there are plenty of dark skinned folk living there but they don't push drugs. I'm willing to bet they want to escape those same "dark skinned folk pushing drugs". Are they racists too? Do you project much? How often do you indulge in stereotypes?

Dan, you're insane.


> Look, suburbs are popular because you can have a
> plot of land around you. You don't have have
> people not related to you live above you and below
> you. Nor do you have to share a wall. Many people
> find that appealing.

Sure, but the inner-ring railroad suburbs of the 1880-1920 period had all those things and also had a layout and density that was mostly walkable/bikeable and livable (even in modern society) with one car per family. It was the "1/3 acre of land and no through traffic under any circumstances" meme that really did the damage, and that didn't start spreading extensively until 1975-1980 or so. Identifying exactly where that meme originated would be a useful addition to the dicussion.

Cranky

> Do you have any hard numbers on what suburbs
> are subsidized as opposed to cities? My bet
> is that cities beat out suburbs far greater.
> It costs far more to subsidize light rail
> than a road.

When I was a kid we used to go for drives in the "country", which could be found just west of where I-294 is today. Complete with farms, barns, corn, cows, orchards, etc. Even after 294 was built it was 5-10 years before Naperville, Orland Park, etc started mushrooming. The money to build all that infrastructure (including roads) came from somewhere, and it wasn't the land because even a profitable farm doesn't pay that kind of taxes. Hence it came from what had been the economic engine of Illinois since 1850: the (inner) City of Chicago.

Once the money was drained out of the City and the exurbanization was fully underway the tax base started moving west too of course (or to Mexico in the case of the factory jobs). But that wasn't the situation in 1970.

Cranky

...combined with the nonsensical observation that "if you take New York out of the equation, there are already more Americans telecommuting today than taking mass transit"; by the same token if you ignore the three percent of Americans who do the most telecommuting very few people telecommute!

It is fair to exclude an outlier like New York, and your point about ignoring frequent telecommuters does not establish that this is a nonsensical observation. If you ignore the three percent of Americans who do the most telecommuting, then it will probably be true that, on average, Americans do very little telecommuting. But the number of telecommuters will decrease by only three percent. A more apt comparison would be to ignore the industry in which the most telecommuting is done, whichever one that is.

Telecommuting has been the Next New Thing for many many years. It's never come remotely close to living up to expectations and is at best a very limited solution to the country's traffic and energy problems.

The rancor on this thread just goes to show that it's not worth engaging Ross Douthat and his ilk, on any level. The major mental driving force of any young, well-educated Republican, like Douchehat, is eliminationist: they want as many of their annoying fellow citizens dead as possible, as soon as possible, so that they can return to the Good Life of sailing around on William F. Buckley's yacht without having to listen to the cries of the drowned. I am not exaggerating at all. Douchehat, like Glenn Reynolds, like Jonah Goldberg etc, is too smart not to recognize the environmental problems that trail in the wake of their preferred policies, but these are, to steal a favored warblogger riff, features rather than bugs. Just stockpile enough guns and money, recruit enough like-minded asswipes, and sit back and wait out the apocalypse. There will be lots of cheap land and gas on the other side!

Normally a debate on this topic attracts rightwing gadflies, though strange to say not so much on this thread, who express a few common misperceptions.

One is that we are a rich nation and will continue our quaint ways because the people like it. Actually we're racking up debts like the big loser at the casino- a trillion for the war, a trillion needed for deferred maintenance of our essential infrastructure, and on the personal level the doubling of the cost of fuel in the past five years- with no end in sight as we continue our bellicose role as 'policeman of the world'.

A second is the idea that the suburbs are a sort of low-cost development. In actuality, suburbs are very expensive, starting with building roads and providing services over large distances, and eventually including the loss of farmland, environmental degradation of the waters from runoff in coastal regions, which kills the fisheries, and the needs to deal with storm runoff in large areas with a lot of roofs and roads.

The results of all of this routinely show up when the world nations are ranked on some metric and the US, far from being number one or two, routinely clocks in around number fifteen or number twenty.

Balancing these unfortunate facts is the fact that when rail transit is built and people get to see it in action they almost always vote for more. And transit-oriented development (TOD in the lexicon) is a very strong mover in markets.

There is in fact an opportunity to deal with several problems here with one major policy thrust. The Boomers are arguably the largest demographic group- if they could be moved into houses that required no energy for heating or cooling, located where no driving was required to interact with society and social services, this would provide substantial follow-on economies, most notably in the provision of healthcare services.

As most of us dimly know, global warming will in the near future place most of these issues at the center of our national life. And at least one Dylan hit single will again have a chance to top the charts.

No sane human being actually likes living in the suburbs. Anyone who claims otherwise is lying.


Posted by Dan


Fuck yeah!
I despise sitting out on the deck under huge pine trees in the evenings, listening to the crickets, frogs and birds. Clear unlit sky over head.

It really sucks when I can take the dogs on a walk down the middle of a sidewalkless road, greeting neighbors on their evening walk.

I hate my 2 mile car trip to the Grocery/Video store/Bank/Package Store/Restaurant and yes! the damn gas station!

Idiot.

.

Re: Anecdotally, the vast majority of my 30ish friends wish to marry and have kids in a more walkable urban communities

You can certainly have a more walkable environment without everyone being stuffed into high-rise latter-day tenements. I grew up in a subdivision (built mainly in the 50s) where there were a surprising number of amenities within walking or biking distance: my grade school and middle school, two parks, four (later five) churches, a K-Mart, a pharmacy, a barber shop and beauty salon, a grocery store, a convenience store, a medical clinic, a dentist, a pizzeria, a greasy spoon restaurant, a shoe store, a ladies' clothing store, a hardware, a laundromat, a dry cleaners, a lawyer's office, a full service gas station, two banks, a Hallmark store. All of that less than a mile (most of it less than a half mile) from my front door. And yes, people did walk and bike places albeit this was Michigan and weather sometimes mandated auto use instead, even for short trips. So it is possible to have a fairly limited need to drive places (and to require only short drives when driving is necessary due to weather or the need to transport passengers or cargo) without everyone moving back downtown.

Re: I also think that the most amazing thing about telecommuting is how little of it there actually is.

There are three reasons for this, IMO: 1) Management feels it is losing control when workers are not visibly at their desk 2) Workers feel they are isolated and losing touch with one another if they do not have face-to-face contact with co-workers and bosses and 3) Both management and workers need to make the argument that on-site work is necessary lest upper management decide that if workers can telecommute from the burbs, they could just as easily hire workers to telecommute from Bangalore.

I actually know a fair number of people who telecommute at least 3 days/week, but they end up driving a heck of a lot more than if they worked in some sort of centralized office (even an exurban one). Every 5-minute discussion with a client or vendor becomes a 2-hour drive-and-park.

Cranky

serial catowner wrote:

"There is in fact an opportunity to deal with several problems here with one major policy thrust. The Boomers are arguably the largest demographic group- if they could be moved into houses that required no energy for heating or cooling, located where no driving was required to interact with society and social services, this would provide substantial follow-on economies, most notably in the provision of healthcare services."


(Its worth the Godwin's Law violation.)

Well, we could put them into forced labor camps. No need to use any energy for heating or cooling - they can muddle through. And no cars if you can't leave! We can save even more on providing healthcare if we don't.

And to think, just one post upstream Professor Booty accused Rous Douthat of stmuping for genocide.

Do you have any hard numbers on what suburbs are subsidized as opposed to cities? My bet is that cities beat out suburbs far greater. It costs far more to subsidize light rail than a road.

Your 'bet'? Speaking of 'hard numbers'....

There are many more roads than light rail systems in this country by a huge factor, obviously. Roads are subsidized on a MASSIVE scale. And you have to look at the total costs and benefits; don't think it's expensive, in a broad, aggregate sense, to have tens of millions of people driving their own cars everywhere - and I do mean 'everywhere' - they go? You don't even need hard numbers to suss that one out.

Cranky is right, BTW. I'm from 'Chicagoland' too, and it is Textbook - line of least resistance all the way. The key comment here, it seems to me, is Don Williams' tirade against planning. Can't have any of THAT now, can we? Planning = bad. Lotsa luck with the anarchist tip.

It really sucks when I can take the dogs on a walk down the middle of a sidewalkless road, greeting neighbors on their evening walk.

Fuck! You're the asshole I keep almost running into!

Sidewalkless roads are for driving.

It is asking a lot of politicians to raise the price of driving. As some of the comments to your blog shows, raising the price of gas gets the peseants out waving their pitch forks.

Rick

Are we really debating road subsidies? I'm not sure we're gonna be able to get around this whole "road" thing even if we all move in together. Cities sort of need these roads as well...so you can, you know, bring things into - and out of - cities.

Re Professor Booty's comment "The major mental driving force of any young, well-educated Republican, like Douchehat, is eliminationist: they want as many of their annoying fellow citizens dead as possible, as soon as possible, so that they can return to the Good Life of sailing around on William F. Buckley's yacht without having to listen to the cries of the drowned."
-----------
You talk as if there is something wrong with that.

Our population has soared from 260 Million to 300 Million in just the last 20 years. If you fly over this country and look below, almost ALL of the landscape looks like a rotting loaf of bread being devoured by mold.


almost ALL of the landscape looks like a rotting loaf of bread being devoured by mold.

Malthus is willing.

Fuck! You're the asshole I keep almost running into!

Sidewalkless roads are for driving.


Posted by Consumatopia


These are 25 mph residential roads with more foot traffic than car.

.

So we can add Don Williams to my list of eliminationist day-dreamers? Although, earlier, he made some noises about loathing environmental destruction, so I guess he can't join Douchehat and the others on the right. Instead, he appears to be proposing self-elimination for the benefit of the planet; so long as he is first in line, I heartily second that emotion.

Re Professor Booty's comment "Just stockpile enough guns and money, recruit enough like-minded asswipes, and sit back and wait out the apocalypse. There will be lots of cheap land and gas on the other side!"
--------
1) You don't stockpile DOLLARS for Christ's sake-- there are far better substitutes for the possible uses. Gold is a FAR better store of value and telephone books are far better source of toilet paper.

2) It's "guns and AMMO" not "guns and money"
Plus books, lots of antibiotics, non-hybrid seeds for Indian flint corn, beans and squash. Oil and parts for the Ford Pickup. Lots and lots of boots. Farm tools (axes, mattocks, shovels, scythes,etc.) A pair of vise grips to remove those wisdom teeth you still have and some fishing line to sew up your large intestine when you get appendicitis. Etc etc etc.

The simple life costs a shitload of money.

PS Don't follow all the superrich "asswipes" to Montana, Idaho,etc. The Indians there never got above Hunter/Gatherer stage -- real estate agents never discuss "random climatic events" like droughts,etc.

"People keep thinking that a move away from suburbanism toward urbanism means moving to downtown Baltimore and being surrounded by dark skinned folk pushing drugs (yes, I am implying that fear of urbanism is driven by racism)"

Sure. The neighborhood I live in is much more diverse than the city of Baltimore is, and I moved into it of my own free will. To the person who said racism is what drives fear of urban environments? Maybe in the 50's and 60's, but not anymore. To Dan, who called me insane for liking suburbs? Yeah, I hate having large gardens, a large patio with a grill, and a room large enough to put a big screen TV in.

Here's the thing - if the suburbs are a long term losing proposition, as many of you here seem to think, then those of us living here will be the ones paying. Why don't you just enjoy your urban living, and let me take the damage you're sure is coming my way?

And obtw, I suspect that I personally drive less than many of the urban dwellers here. I've worked out of a home office for 15 years now.

mishu, you're really mixing up issues and not paying attention to what people are writing. It's entirely possible for a neighborhood to have both single family homes and have those single family homes be walking distance from a diner, grocery shop, and drug store.

There's also going to be a difference in perspective from those of us who grew up in old-time suburbs, for which the above scenario is more likely to be true, and those who grew up in the exurbs of Atlanta or Houston, where any commercial activity is MILES away from a sprawling housing development. People, generally, DON'T want to live in such places. It's just that they do because (a) the houses are more affordable, and (b) the schools are better (or perceived to be better).

But WHY is such housing more affordable? Well, there's less access to amenities, and it's more isolated, making it a less desireable place to live. Those living in Maryland can simply compare home prices in Bethesda to those in Germantown and you can easily figure out which sort of community people would PREFER to live in. However, there are so few places like Bethesda that the housing prices are extremely high. Make more "urbanist" communities, and prices of living in such communities will be more moderate because there will be more of them.

Also, if sidewalkless roads are for driving, why do they build sidewalkless roads along blocks of houses where people actually live?

Re " There will be lots of cheap land and gas on the other side!"
--------
And broads. Lots and lots of broads. Enough that even someone like Glenn Reynolds can get laid.

Also, if sidewalkless roads are for driving, why do they build sidewalkless roads along blocks of houses where people actually live?

You mean where they live with their garages?

These are 25 mph residential roads with more foot traffic than car.

Okay, that makes sense.

It's crazy though how many people think 45-55 mph curvy rolling rural roads are the ideal place to walk their dog around here...

"Then people who disagree with your ideal living arrangment will only pressure the government to use the tax system to force urbanites to internalize the social costs of urban life. For example, gay men tend to live in urban environments. Gay men have higher infection rate of HIV than straight suburban dwellers. HIV and AIDS put increased cost pressures on the medical industry. Therefore, urbanites should be taxed more for facilitating the gay lifestyle which spreads HIV. Do you really want a tax war amongst your fellow citizens because of the lifestyle choices they made?"

A couple of points:

1) HIV rates among gay men have been going down for over a decade.

2) HIV is a lesser threat than global warming. To be killed by AIDS, you need to be infected with HIV. If global warming gets bad enough, to be killed by it, all you need to do is live on Earth. We are right now in the top three in per capita emissions of global warming gases (with small countries like United Arab Emirates along with us) while also having a large population. China and India, where per capita people cause a small fraction of our emissions, are going to be industrialising and putting out my gases. We can either become more efficient and pollute less or just burn up and die. It's sad Americans are busy defending suburbanization and its related pollution because it is supposedly good for raising children at the same time that lifestyle threatens their children's future. This is far past Nero fiddling while Rome burned; this is Nero saying how pretty the fire is.

Ah, I know that the message isn't working any other way when someone (left or right, both use it) pulls out "for the children".

We need to create a new Godwin's law for that.

A couple of comments:

1. Instead of taxing carbon, why not un-tax un-carbon? For every action people take to make their lives less carbon-intensive, allow a tax break or credit so that carbon friendly building renovations and other changes don't take decades to pay for themselves.

2. Taxing carbon-heavy activities by their "social cost" only indirectly affects the massive wealth urbanite lawyers, bankers, and other professionals accrue from our carbon top-heavy economy. I.e., it hurts people who can't afford to live in the city, and it rewards people who can. And ironically, many of these wealthy people can afford to live in the city precisely because of their work or investment in carbon-heavy industries.

Constantine has it right. Build more walkable environments, and they will come. Fix the urban schools, and they will come. But also don't allow so much large-lot zoning so that new urban centers can be created.

Sure, some people will prefer suburban living. And of those, some fraction can afford the true cost (i.e. without the subsidies) and will stay out there even when gas is $20 per gallon. But others won't. Why is the urban real estate in NY, Boston, and SF so otherworldly-expensive? Because people WHO HAVE A CHOICE want to live there and the supply of such areas does not meet the demand. As things are, the free market cannot fix the imbalance because of zoning laws.

We don't need everyone to live in walkable communities. Just more than we have now.

"Ah, I know that the message isn't working any other way when someone (left or right, both use it) pulls out "for the children".

We need to create a new Godwin's law for that.

Posted by James Robertson | July 5, 2007 2:11 PM"

I'm just responding to the fact that the core argument behind the suburbs is that "it's good for the children" is bullshit. American suburbia is a Potemkin village. It cannot last because it contributes too much to global warming, so either policy or global catastrophe will end it either way as the "mainstream" American way of life. You can engage in this or you can misrepresent my post by focusing on a single line while ignoring the very real problem of global warming or you can face up to the fact that America's suburbs are contributing more to global warming than well-run cities (basically not Dallas) and thus putting us all in danger.

"I'm just responding to the fact that the core argument behind the suburbs is that "it's good for the children" is bullshit. American suburbia is a Potemkin village. It cannot last because it contributes too much to global warming, so either policy or global catastrophe will end it either way as the "mainstream" American way of life."

Well, I'm not the least bit concerned by global warming, so I'm not planning to engage that aspect of your argument. Contrary to Al Gore's fantasy life, there's nothing that vaguely resembles a scientific consensus on the issue.

Which leaves me with which is safer for children. I can send my daughter out in my neighborhood on a bike and not worry about the kinds of violent crimes that are relatively common in urban areas.

If you want to actually fix those issues, stop worrying about nonsense (global warming), and start advocating for the end of the stupid "war on drugs". A large proportion of urban crime is a direct fallout of that failed policy, just as the gang wars of the 20s were a result of prohibition.

Also, the "good government" types have inadvertantly contributed to the rise of the SUV and Minivan. The CAFE standards made the station wagon impractical, while leaving a hole for the SUV and minivan. The need for a multiple child carrying vehicle didn't disappear, and demand forced something to fill the vacuum.

Additionally, if you ever have to transport three children under the age of 6, you have to have car seats. This is generally a good thing, but again - it makes small cars mostly impractical for families. Many people here are probably the sort that reflexively rail against SUVs and minivans, without ever wondering about some of the unintended consequences that led to their popularity. Contrary to the received wisdom, it's not all about a burning desire to waste more.

applecor wrote:

"Why is the urban real estate in NY, Boston, and SF so otherworldly-expensive? Because people WHO HAVE A CHOICE want to live there and the supply of such areas does not meet the demand. As things are, the free market cannot fix the imbalance because of zoning laws."

Two points:

1) The fact that real estate prices are very high in a handful of urban areas does not in any way prove that there is pent up demand for more dense urban living spaces. There are tons of things people like about our legacy cities that simply cannot be replicated because they are part and parcel of the fact that these cities have been growing organically for hundreds of years. You can build ultra-dense neighborhoods in Nashville but they won't have The Met, Fenway Park, views down the hill into the SF Bay, etc. People live in NYC, Boston, SF and other dense cities in spite of, not because of, the fact that they have to live in 500 sq ft apartments.

I myself live in Chicago, just a short distance from downtown. I like where I live, and wouldn't move to the suburbs if you paid me. But if you gave me the chance to live in my current neighborhood on a 1/2 acre lot I'd jump at the chance. Problem is, a 1/2 acre lot in my neighborhood would cost several million dollars (if such a thing existed, which it doesn't). So I accept the density as a neccessary cost of being close to bars, restaurants, old shady parks and museums that I like. If you built a dense grid of housing in far suburban Naperville it would be hell on earth - all of the crowding and noise of the city with none of the vibrancy, charm or history.

2) The idea that the free market "can't" build dense communities because of zoning laws is laughable. As if developers who saw a market opportunity couldn't possibly influence city council decisions. With rare exceptions (i.e. when a particular zoning issue captures the imagination or ire of a community) its developers who attend those boring zoning reviews and who fund the election campaigns of local officials. If there was money to be made in building dense communities the zoning laws would allow for just that.

Global warming, even assuming it is going to be a large problem, is not as large a near term threat to suburbia as (1) wars for oil, which are going on already, and (2) just plain running out of oil. Google Matthew Simmons and James Kunstler to read more than you want to know about the latter.

Assuming for the sake of argument that urban crime rates are higher than suburban crime rates, the question is why? It's not the density that causes high crime; that's actually a deterrent to crime. Suburbia has become a strategy for race and class segregation, but assuming large numbers of people will always want that, it isn't necessarily the only or the best strategy.

We agree on the war on drugs.

It's not the good-government types who have failed to fix the obvious problems with the CAFE standards. It's the bad-government types.

> If you built a dense grid of housing in far
> suburban Naperville it would be hell on earth -
> all of the crowding and noise of the city with
> none of the vibrancy, charm or history.

Except that that is what Naperville, Downers Grove, Wheaton, and quite a few others originally _were_, and that the old 1910 era 4-squares in downtown Naperville within walking distance of the train station are now going in the $1.5 million range (or were the last time I looked).

Cranky

SD,

I don't really understand your first point. If everyone had a 1/2 acre lot, no one would be close to bars, restaurants, etc. It's a tradeoff. If you're saying you want a 1/2-acre lot and everyone else lives in an apartment, well OK. Aside from that, I don't believe that it takes 300 years for an attractive urban physical setting and culture to develop. Chicago and SF have recovered pretty nicely from huge, relatively recent disasters. Yes, if you are on a coast, you have an advantage in that regard.

As for point 2, I'm happy to be educated on this but I just don't buy it without any backup. NIMBY-ism is a very, very strong counterweight to what developers want. And by the way, developers are not always such geniuses about what kind of project will make them the most money because they assume that the housing stock we have is the only viable type.

Amen! Enough already about the zoning laws. Normally developers just get a variance or get the law changed. The main reason that wouldn't happen would be that somebody with more money or political clout didn't want it to happen.

The whole zoning law thing has never been anything other than a rightwing meme about repealing all zoning laws, which became a big issue for them when Growth Management reared its ugly head. Far too many would-be liberal bloggers have swallowed this baited hook.

Also, some on this thread don't realize that the large minimum lots are not intended to spread suburbia, but to curb it. My county has huge amounts of 5-acre minimum to preserve the woodlands and encourage development in existing developed areas.

In some of the areas developed before this policy was adopted, you can see the truly horrifying result- housing several steps below a run-down trailer park in quality, and social statistics to match.

Look - getting rid of suburbs is simply not on the table. Most Americans (myself included) would never agree to live in tiny 500-sq-ft apartments in the inner city. We actually like having a real back yard and plenty of living and storage space. Comparisons to Europe are irrelevant, because Europe doesn't have room to sprawl. It's not a choice for them. If they had the room, they'd have suburbs too.

Realistic strategies for dealing with global warming have to take the American lifestyle into account. Changing that lifestyle substantially will not be allowed. That still leaves several reasonable possibilities for curbing carbon emissions:
*increased fuel economy standards, including a mandatory switchover to hybrids for ~90-95% of new cars;
*switching from coal (which currently generates 50% of our electricity) to nuclear power;
*growing as many trees as we can to absorb CO2

I don't think Matthew and the other commentators who live in urban areas understand just how important suburban living is to the majority of Americans. I simply could not live in a small city apartment; several of my favorite hobbies would be off limits there for noise and space considerations. Families with several children are not going to cram them into tiny apartments where they won't even have a bedroom to themselves. Most Americans would see drowning Bangladesh as a small price to pay for keeping suburbia. If you want to convince them to stop global warming, you have to do so without imposing crippling costs on them.

I think it's important to note that modern suburban/exurban communities are, in a lot of ways, NOT designed around kids, even though the schools are frequently better. The meme that they're better for families is one of the biggest reasons that people move there, but there's as much misconception as truth in it.

Think about it--before they're sixteen, at least, they can't drive, and many states are implementing increasingly strict driving age restrictions/increasing the number of "checkpoints" (like driver's ed, minimum supervised-driving hours, waiting periods before full license) in the licensing process in order to push the effective minimum driving age up. Even after they become able to drive, most kids aren't just handed a car of their very own and need to share their parents, with low priority.

Until a kid gets a car of his or her own, or a friend so equipped, he/she is effectively dependent on his or her parents for transportation to anything. Friends' houses. The local mall. Swim lessons. Etcetera. In the suburbs, having a kid means striking a balance between wasting both your time driving them everywhere or letting them be socialized by homework and video games.

The central environmental problem with exurbs is that to do virtually anything outside of one's home or circle of immediate neighbors, one has to drive or be driven. Some people can minimize the number of activities they do which require leaving their immediate area, and good on them—but most people can't, or won't, and even those who can still need to get groceries somehow. Talking about how much you love your greenery does not change the fact that every time you get in your car to go somewhere--and for most suburbanites, that's frequently--you're doing your small part to destroy the nature you're enjoying.

The large minimum lots are to keep away poor people. serial catowner's example demonstrates this. The only answer is to spread the poor people around so that (a) the middle-class types are not so afraid of them and (b) pockets of "the culture of poverty" are harder to develop. Monoculture is as bad in housing as it is in agriculture.

Re "Until a kid gets a car of his or her own, or a friend so equipped, he/she is effectively dependent on his or her parents for transportation to anything"
---------
Right. And we like that. It lets us keep an eye on the little bastards.

I wrote:

The sunk costs in suburban areas are no greater than the sunk costs in urban areas that were largely written off by the middle class following Brown vs. the Board of Education.

Then otto wrote:

On that basis, we need a shock equivalent to desegregation imposed by authorities outside the elected political process to get suburbanites to abandon their sunk costs. You'll be waiting a long time...

Actually, I would argue that the crisis we face with peak oil and global warming could generate just such a shock. However, it is entirely likely that the government will also bend over backwards to make it possible to maintain the inefficient status quo.

A lot has been said in this thread about lot size and density, as if these are the very things that separate urban from suburban design patterns. I believe that accommodation of cars vs. pedestrians is much more of a factor. Obviously cars need to be accommodated, so please don't jump on me for supposedly trying to ban cars.

From the enormous highways to the setback and parking capacity requirements for retail development, to the zoning laws that separate commercial from residential uses, to the laws governing street width and setbacks in residential neighborhoods, just about every aspect of suburban development privileges cars over pedestrians. The result is a landscape where it is difficult, if not impossible, to walk anywhere. And, of course, it is also incredibly dangerous. (A question for suburbanites who think they are making their kids safer by living where they do: how likely is a child to be injured in a violent crime vs. in an auto accident?)

You can certainly have a walkable, urban environment with access to good mass transit and still have single family detached homes. Where the rubber hits the road in urban design is all in how we structure roads, parking lots, and driveways. The debate is not over whether people are going to live in 1/2 acre mini-ranches or in towering urban tenements. It's whether we'll have wide, curvy streets and all end in cul-de-sacs or an interconnected street grid with crosswalks.

It seems to me that people just want to live as close to where they work as possible. If the suburban office parks are where the jobs are, it's in the suburbs where people will live.

A friend of mine has become a right-wing Republican, and on every level seems more suited to living in the suburbs than the city. But he lives in southern Philadelphia (South Philly as we call it), because his workplace is located in the city.

It seems the primary focus should be on bringing employers back into the city. Do that, and the rest will be a lot easier.

(Of course, I'm using Philadelphia as my anecdotal example. While Philly's dreaded wage tax does keep people outside of the city, it should be noted that even with that tax, Philly is far more affordable than any other metro on the East Coast, particularly for families.)

Good points Rob Mac. The single-family homes in my neighborhood probably average 3-4000 SF but they don't have the huge lawns so there's a good level of density. Meanwhile I and my family don't feel too cramped in our 1700-SF apartment. And I can walk from my home to all needed shopping and even to Fenway Park! Go figure!

> I don't think Matthew and the other commentators
> who live in urban areas understand just how
> important suburban living is to the majority of
> Americans. I simply could not live in a small city
> apartment; several of my favorite hobbies would
> be off limits there for noise and space
> considerations. Families with several children are
> not going to cram them into tiny apartments where
> they won't even have a bedroom to themselves.
> Josh G.

> Obviously cars need to be accommodated, so please
> don't jump on me for supposedly trying to ban
> cars.
> Rob Mac

Since we are using quite a few Chicago examples here, perhaps Josh G. could take a few hours to go _walk_ around West Rogers Park, Beverly, Norwood Park, and any one of two dozen neighborhoods I could name. They are exactly as Josh describes: detached houses, 3-5 bedrooms, a modest yard, and plenty of room for hobbies (at least my friends' fathers who built cars and in one case an airplane in the basements and garages throught so). They also have room for automobiles with both off-street (typically 1 car/house) and on-street (*gasp* *horror*) parking. Nice big parks at regular intervals too. Along with walkable commercial strips, schools, libraries, and easy access to public transportation. Admittedly they don't have 1/3 - 1/2 acre lots filled with kentucky bluegrass that needs expensive watering.

Of course, such things can't exist because they haven't been built since 1970. Only living spaces built since 1970 are real.

Cranky

Nobody has mentioned the social costs of high density urban living it. You know most people just aren't really made to be packed like sardines with hordes of strangers. It causes massive increases in stress, anxiety, depression, etc... You look at almost any case study of urbanization and you see this. This results in stuff like crime (yeah in the US the stupid drug laws don't help) as people get into conflicts easier, are more suspicious of each other, etc...And a decrease in the feelings of communal attachment to the city,instead you usually feel attached to your "street" or "neighborhood", of course input into the politics that affect your "street" or "neighborhood" are minimal. There are other issues that take a a lot more then the comment section of a blog to even mention

Anyway the point is that for a variety of reason suburbs are just gonna remain really popular and people are not gonna tolerate them getting messed with.

Instead of a "new urbanism", people should focus on policies that connect suburbs to zones of employment more efficently and the like.

Is James Robertson crazy, or ignorant? He is not concerned by global warming, because it is apparently just a product of Al Gore's fantasy life (ah, that clever and inevitable distraction, the argument ad hominem). James, I don't know your background, but it doesn't seem to include scientific literacy. I wonder where you get the claim that there is no scientific consensus on global warming, when, you know, there is.... Sure, you can trot out a handful of kooky professors emeriti who claim it's all sunspots or asteroids or the Tri-lateral Commission, but it's shamefully dishonest to say there is no scientific consensus on global climate change. Look at 95 plus per cent of the articles on the subject in _Nature_. Look at the IPCC's recent report, which is refutation enough of your claim.

I think the thing to do with global warming deniers (much like deniers of a heliocentric solar system) is to ask: is there anything that would convince you to accept that anthropogenic climate change is occurring? If so, do tell.

Don Williams, central planning is exactly what healthy cities DON'T need. When developers and micromanaging planners get together to design their utopian urban structures, the results are atrocities like Brooklyn's lifeless Metrotech Center, or any public housing project surrounded by unused or crime-ridden parks.

Healthy, high-density urban communities aren't planned; they're allowed to grow, and all that takes is a respect for diversity (of populations and of uses), the availability of capital with which residents and businesses can make improvements, and the ability to control the urge to chop neighborhoods up with enormous expressways.

mishu, you're really mixing up issues and not paying attention to what people are writing. It's entirely possible for a neighborhood to have both single family homes and have those single family homes be walking distance from a diner, grocery shop, and drug store

Actually, that's quite trendy in Chicago suburbs. Prarie Crossing is a development community in the nortwest burbs where they designed the neighborhoods like that. I was quite interested in it until I found out it was downwind from a landfill. There are other developments in Chicago area as well. It can be easily done if you have the land to do it from scratch. It'll be much harder to cut such environments into existing areas with existing homes and existing businesses. That pesky 5th ammendment may get in the way.

mishu, you're really mixing up issues and not paying attention to what people are writing. It's entirely possible for a neighborhood to have both single family homes and have those single family homes be walking distance from a diner, grocery shop, and drug store

Actually, that's quite trendy in Chicago suburbs. Prarie Crossing is a development community in the nortwest burbs where they designed the neighborhoods like that. I was quite interested in it until I found out it was downwind from a landfill. There are other developments in Chicago area as well. It can be easily done if you have the land to do it from scratch. It'll be much harder to cut such environments into existing areas with existing homes and existing businesses. That pesky 5th amendment may get in the way.

It costs far more to subsidize light rail than a road.

Last I checked you don't have to repave a rail line every year.

...Idiot.

See, this is exactly what I was talking about.

Also I personally love having to drive my dogs to the local park to take them for a walk, cause they keep getting almost run over on these sidewalkless suburban roads.

I think it's important to note that modern suburban/exurban communities are, in a lot of ways, NOT designed around kids, even though the schools are frequently better. The meme that they're better for families is one of the biggest reasons that people move there, but there's as much misconception as truth in it.
************************************************

So the planned community near where I live outside of Denver that is set up for walking-distance schools, parks, community centers/pools and bands of open space, is supposed to be hostile to children?

Where do you live?

I am amazed at the coercive tone here. How dare people live where they want to! How dare they elect city/county governments that let them! They'll live where we tell them to and like it!!

You'll really pull a lot of people to your side with that attitude.

> I am amazed at the coercive tone here.
> How dare people live where they want to!
> How dare they elect city/county governments
> that let them! They'll live where we tell
> them to and like it!!

Well, this "want" to live in a far exurb suddenly sprang into being around 1970, having never surfaced during the entire postwar boom, suburbification, and even integration/resegregation. It only seems to have been "discovered" when (a) that civil engineer from Naperville IL [1] perfected the method for building huge subdivisions without requiring large storm drains (b) real estate developers suddenly realized that there was a lot more money to be made forcing people out-out-out. Before that people seemed to "want" mainly smaller, more managable inner-ring suburban houses and communities.

Cranky

[1] One of those people who will never be named in the history books but did more to change the face of the United States than anyone since Jefferson.

>Last I checked you don't have to repave a rail line every year.

So does everyone who rides the train take turns driving it? Do they also take turns maintaining the train, paying for things like oil, brake fluid and the like out of their own pocket? Or does a government hire people to do that for the riders?

Campesino

It's funny how that attitude comes predominantly from the urban side. Those of us satisfied with suburbs rarely urge city dwellers to move out and join us. I guess it's because deep down we are bad, environmentally unfriendly, racist liars.

Ben Cronin,

What does "consensus" have to do with scientific truth? There was a "consensus" in favor of Newtonian mechanics until Einstein demonstrated the distorting effects of relativity.

If the science is so conclusive that we are facing global catastrophe due to human greenhouse gas emissions, why is Al Gore ducking a globally televised debate on Global Warming?

Re "What does "consensus" have to do with scientific truth? There was a "consensus" in favor of Newtonian mechanics until Einstein demonstrated the distorting effects of relativity "
============

NOTE, however, that Einstein did not prove Newtonian mechanics wrong for the conditions in which they were developed -- he merely expanded Newtonian mechanics to encompass new --largely non-Earth conditions.

There's a difference between showing that a theory is falsehood versus showing that a theory has limitations.

Scientific theories of any age are reality-based -- are based upon many physical observations and extensive peer review. Hence, they tend to be superseded rather than proven to be outright falsehood.

This is what distinguishes them from the perversions of liberal arts weenies -- from things like Neocon political theory or Postmodernism ,for example.

Well, I'm not the least bit concerned by global warming, so I'm not planning to engage that aspect of your argument. Contrary to Al Gore's fantasy life, there's nothing that vaguely resembles a scientific consensus on the issue.

Well, then what about peak oil? Even if global warming turns out to be a false alarm(which I highly doubt) there is still the problem that we aren't finding more oil very quickly, existing reserves are dwindling, and this will only get worse and worse as 2 billion people in India and China attempt to attain a more Western standard of living in the 50 years. We probably won't run out in our lifetimes, but it might well get a lot more scarce and make suburban life prohibitively expensive. There are also major water supply issues looming for a lot of the sprawly areas in the American West, and lots of other sustainability problems.

Which leaves me with which is safer for children. I can send my daughter out in my neighborhood on a bike and not worry about the kinds of violent crimes that are relatively common in urban areas.

I know the raw rate numbers don't look good(looks like 3:1 to 5:1 urban/suburban violent crime ratios), but this is incredibly variable within cities. I don't think kids being raised in Manhattan or most of Brooklyn are really at significantly greater risk than kids in the suburbs, and the upsides in terms of opportunities and access are much greater. Now, not everyone can afford to raise their kids in Manhattan or Brooklyn, but again, that's why people want to push for zoning policies that will reduce the scarcity of such places.

The CAFE standards made the station wagon impractical, while leaving a hole for the SUV and minivan. The need for a multiple child carrying vehicle didn't disappear, and demand forced something to fill the vacuum.

And I'm sure auto-industry lobbying had nothing to do with this outcome. This is typical. Industry and the GOP do everything they can to sabotage attempts at good government and reasonable regulation, and then turn around and say "See, good government isn't possible!" If every other industrialized country can do it, I don't see why the heck we can't.

One problem with transport and city planning is that once you HAVE to buy a car, you tend to use it a lot for everything and to shun mass transport -- because the incremental cost is minor compared to the UPFRONT cost of buying the car and the ongoing DEPRECIATION due to simple aging. (I.E , Car's gonna lose several thousand dollars in tradein value per year even if you park it. ) Plus there's the ongoing cost of insurance.

Plus there's the whole social status thing about having a big new car versus a small, used one.

Well, this "want" to live in a far exurb suddenly sprang into being around 1970, having never surfaced during the entire postwar boom, suburbification, and even integration/resegregation. It only seems to have been "discovered" when (a) that civil engineer from Naperville IL [1] perfected the method for building huge subdivisions without requiring large storm drains (b) real estate developers suddenly realized that there was a lot more money to be made forcing people out-out-out. Before that people seemed to "want" mainly smaller, more managable inner-ring suburban houses and communities.

Cranky
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I'm always amazed at the point of view that says all of us are just tools of the man, with no free-will, choice, individual taste or aspirations.

Maybe when presented with the new choice of exurban living or the smaller inner-ring suburban houses people "decided" that the exurbs looked better. People could have stayed in the city or the closer suburbs, many have. The range of choices expanded and people made their choices.

Your argument is like saying: this "want" to buy a cheap, mass-produced automobile suddenly suddenly sprang into being the 1920s having never surfaced previously since the invention of the automobile in the 1880s. Before that people seemed to "want" mainly horse drawn conveyances they could afford.

Why get an iPod when that 8-track tape player works so well. Stick with the 8-track if you want

A little confusion upthread. The 5-acre minimum lot size is not "to keep out poor people" and in fact there are no 'gated communities' in my county. I can assure you that us poor people are sprinkled about as randomly as can be here.

The 5-acre minimum slows development, helps insure that each house will have adequate septic, helps insure that the groundwater won't be drawn down too fast, helps preserve the forest, and keeps the roads from being overwhelmed by traffic.

There's no big conspiracy or plot about all this. Even little old us could see the handwriting on the wall. We still depend a lot on natural resources and can't afford to build a bunch of new roads, let alone put in sewers or water systems. So we did the cheapest thing and started to use planning as a tool.

Ok, Campesino is just being silly, ignorant, or both.

The 'desire to own a car' in the 20s sprang into existence for two main reasons- the building of more hard-surfaced roads, and the selling of cars on credit. See Alfred Sloan's My Life With General Motors.

The postwar suburban boom was fueled by VA loans, FHA loans, the building of the freeways, and the fact that every city in America was run by corrupt politicians.

In many cases these big-city gangs were in league with the suburban developers and the block-busting was done on purpose, driving the value of the homes down and making it impossible to get home loans in areas that were redlined because black people lived there.

Pretending that everyone moved to the suburbs because they like the green leafy is just silly, as any drive through a few Seattle neighborhoods will show today. Most of them are just as green, leafy, and well-kept as the tonier suburbs, but that didn't happen until the power of the business gang running the city had been broken by citizen revolts.

Ok, Campesino is just being silly, ignorant, or both.

The 'desire to own a car' in the 20s sprang into existence for two main reasons- the building of more hard-surfaced roads, and the selling of cars on credit. See Alfred Sloan's My Life With General Motors.

The postwar suburban boom was fueled by VA loans, FHA loans, the building of the freeways, and the fact that every city in America was run by corrupt politicians.

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You just make my point. If people are offered new choices they are free to make them or not. No one held a gun to their head and made them buy a car when they could have held on to a cheaper horse. VA and FHA loans were used to buy houses in cities as well. I had an FHA loan in a city.

Your Sloan example is backwards. Lets say I own one of the big ice cream parlor chains and I have a great idea to make ice cream in a cow manure flavor. I could spend millions in ad campaigns and price it at a deep discount but still nobody will buy it. People wanted cars

Do you think people were incapable of making a rational choice between an affordable automobile and a horse? Before they didn't have a choice, cars were too expensive. Conditions changed and the choice was then available.
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Pretending that everyone moved to the suburbs because they like the green leafy is just silly, as any drive through a few Seattle neighborhoods will show today.Most of them are just as green, leafy, and well-kept as the tonier suburbs, but that didn't happen until the power of the business gang running the city had been broken by citizen revolts.

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People moved to the suburbs for a wide variety of reasons, don't think I ever said it was just for "green leafy."

Re: The need for a multiple child carrying vehicle didn't disappear, and demand forced something to fill the vacuum.

If I usually saw SUVs and mini-vans carting around a passle of children I would agree. However I rarely see more than one person in these vehicles, so it seems that their use is not primarily for toting around a neo-natalist-sized batch of kids. Indeed, I don't even know anyone who owns such a vehicle who has more than two kids. And you don't need a Hummer, or a Tahoe for two kids! When I was 5 we drove all the way from Michigan to Florida with four of us (parents, brother and me) plus a dachshund in a Maverick, an old 70s car not known for being spacious.

Re: The 'desire to own a car' in the 20s sprang into existence for two main reasons- the building of more hard-surfaced roads, and the selling of cars on credit.

Um, could it not also be that cars were superior to horse drawn vehicles?

It's funny how that attitude comes predominantly from the urban side. Those of us satisfied with suburbs rarely urge city dwellers to move out and join us.

This is actually a falsehood. Cities have typically been the target of demagogues as being the source of the fear of the day in order to scare the masses. Whether it has been cities as the source of sinful ways, crime, drugs, or, these days, you can hear people saying, "Oh, I wouldn't want to live in a city, it might suffer a terrorist attack" (or, in Bill O'Reilly's case, wishing for a terrorist attack on a city of his particular ire). I suppose now we'll hear more about how cities are repositories of liberal yuppies who refuse to sufficiently repoduce in service to the Homeland.

In any case, I would hope that if I end up living in some exurban housing development 5-10 miles from the nearest grocery store, I'd be honest enough to say, "look, I wanted a decent sized backyard for my kids, and I didn't have enough money to afford a house in Chevy Chase/Bethesda/Wellesley/Newton/Brookline, so I settled for this place as an alternative." The last thing I'd want is to fool myself into thinking that what I had was somehow an ideal.

Similarly, I wouldn't blame anyone who bought powdered milk. Yes, it's inferior to fresh milk, but it's cheaper, and when you have children that need a steady supply of protein and Vitamin D, it's a decent, affordable alternative. However, my instinct, if I saw a lot of people dependent on powdered milk, would NOT be to say, "See! This just proves that people PREFER powdered milk!" Rather, I'd ask, "What policies can we pursue to make sure that regular, fresh milk is available to the masses?"

> Re: Anecdotally, the vast majority of my 30ish
> friends wish to marry and have kids in a more
> walkable urban communities

See, this is why the plural of "anecdote" is not "data." Gentrified urban areas (as opposed to "inncer-city" ones) have proportionately very few children. Take a look at the demographics for San Francisco, for example. The big urban loft buildings in downtown (of whatever city you go to) are all marketed toward single adults, childless couples, or empty-nesters.

That's not to say that all families want to live out in the exurbs surrounded by acres and acres of nothing but houses. There are plenty of living arrangements between those extremes, like early suburbs that have single-family housing but are also not within vast tracts of single-use zoning.

"The big urban loft buildings in downtown (of whatever city you go to) are all marketed toward single adults, childless couples, or empty-nesters."

Well, sure. Those people have to live somewhere, and suitable housing is not being built for them in the suburbs. Plus, developers know that families will not buy into an urban school system.

So young adults just leaving home and empty-nesters don't get to live near their families. Another reason to build more varied housing stock in the suburbs. And Adam, you make the main point yourself - new suburbs are not being built the same way those "early suburbs" were. That's a problem to be fixed, not a fact of life to be taken for granted.

The urbanists here are not trying to ship suburbanites off to concentration camps, I mean 500-square-foot apartments. They want to provide more choices, not less.

And on another topic, mass transit benefits everyone, not just the people who ride it. But you can't just build it without the residential density to support it already there or at least on the way.

Of course, none of the anti-urban commenters is mentioning the real reason for the big postwar move to the 'burbs: The big move of blacks up out of the South and into Northern cities in the 1920s and 1930s. World War II temporarily halted white flight, but once the war ended it picked up speed.

Conversely, fear of The Scary Brown People is the real reason the anti-urbanites don't want to move back to the city, which Rush Limbaugh, Michael "Savage" Weiner and their other hate-radio faves tell them is eeeevil.

Of course, none of the anti-urban commenters is mentioning the real reason for the big postwar move to the 'burbs: The big move of blacks up out of the South and into Northern cities in the 1920s and 1930s.
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Here we go again - everything in American life is due to RACISM

Ha ha, very funny. No, cars were not superior to horses until the hard-surfaced roads were built.

Some people who didn't need cars bought them on easy credit- that was part of what the Depression was about.

Other people bought cars to get to new suburbs that you reached by driving on a new road. A process that has gone on for 80 years.

As for the idea you can't make people buy stuff by advertising, maybe you should tip off the drug companies and car companies that, in your opinion, they've got it all wrong. I'm sure they'll thank you later.

And Campesino (as usual?) somehow misses the fact that the continent was stolen by white people from non-white people, and that slavery was the problem the Founders couldn't solve when they wrote the Constitution, and that racism was the problem not addressed when the nation fought a mighty Civil War to address the problem of slavery.

All things considered, it seems fair to say that racism and the results of racism have been very important factors in most aspects of our national life.

How many times does Detroit need to burn down to illustrate that point?

Re: Ha ha, very funny. No, cars were not superior to horses until the hard-surfaced roads were built.

Oh, Don't be absurd. I've driven on dirt and gravel roads. They're not fun to drive on, but a car still beats a horse on them, not to mention cars are inherently more comfortable than horse-drawn vehicles. There's a tale that the royals of England, whose resources ought allow them to purchase the absolute best, refer to their state carriage used on ceremonial occasion as "The Bone-shaker". Moreover city streets were paved long before the 20s.

Re: As for the idea you can't make people buy stuff by advertising, maybe you should tip off the drug companies and car companies that, in your opinion, they've got it all wrong.

I routinely see advertisements for all sorts of products and services that I neither need nor want. And guess what: I don't buy them! Do you?

All things considered, it seems fair to say that racism and the results of racism have been very important factors in most aspects of our national life.

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Won't deny that racism has been an issue in the history of our country. It's just so tiresome to see it trotted out as the unicausal explanation for what are multicausal phenomenon: in your words - "the real reason for the big postwar move to the 'burbs"
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misses the fact that the continent was stolen by white people from non-white people
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Haven't missed that either, but again this appears to be a rather simplistic reduction. Again, to be historically correct and morally consistent - various groups of those non-white people had been stealing parts of the continent from each other for 13,000 years before the white people got here. The whites just ended up being better at it. For example, somehow to many people Navajo appropriation of Hopi land is perfectly okay while Spanish appropriation of Rio Grande Pueblo land is morally abhorrent.

Of course, none of the anti-urban commenters is mentioning the real reason for the big
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"Anti-urban" is an interesting choice of words. Sort of turns the situation on its head - like "pro-choice" or "pro-life" you know. People with the suburbanist approach aren't trying to make people live anywhere - if you want to live in town go for it. The urbanists seem to be the ones taking on the coercive approach to restriction of housing choice.

Cranky Observer --

If you're still around, can you fill us in more on the Naperville (lack of) storm drains? I've never heard anything about this, and Google doesn't seem to be helpful here.

I postulate that the future is smaller cities and large towns distributed across the landscape.... providing local centers of density that provide urban social interactions and density... but sufficiently close to food resources that transportation in a post oil environment is not prohibitive.

This is not the LA or New York model... it is not the current suburban model either.

1. The urbanist proposal, is "Hey Jerks we'll tax the Hell out of you rubes until you go broke or capitulate and move to the city. All the same to us, It's not like anyone west of Jersey is a real American"

2. Suburbs predate the car and the older ones probably can be made to work again with transit.

3. Anything that can be telecommuted will eventually be done in a low wage high skill market. It costs pretty much the same money to wire the data and voice from New Delhi or New Jersey.

I live in Denver and this city is going through an explosion like I've never seen. Buildings going up everywhere and urban redevelopment is popping up all over the place. What about the suburbs? Nothing, nada zip. A bunch of the homes are going into foreclosure in the suburbs and some of the poorer city neighborhoods, but downtown is going nuts. Why? I can't put my finger on it because it's not like any industry in Denver is booming. Oh yes, oil and gas exploration in the western half of our state, but nothing new in Denver. It's like the people in the know are planning for the future and the city is the place to be. So please excuse me for thinking all of you suburban nuts are crazy for thinking that a bunch of "urban" development will occur 40 miles away from the main place of business, but you're completely insane. Lots of people, little financial and energy resources. Whose going to get them? Well I know they are not going to be expanding mass transit 5o miles outside the city. Dream on. Start thinking about how you're going to have to tear down those cute beige houses to make way for land to eat from. Bon appetite with the tumbleweeds.

The suburbs are great ---- all those parking lots and strip malls are convenient


Comments closed July 19, 2007.

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