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Desperate Ploy to Get Atrios to Link to Me

14 Aug 2007 09:18 am

One underappreciated subject that came up researching my book was the extent to which segments of "liberal hawk" opinion not only endorsed the invasion of Iraq, but also some of the "incompetent" approach to occupation-management, that they tended to later portray as Bush's blunders, responsible for screwing up the glorious wars that existed in their head. Here, for example, is the DLC's Steve Nider on the brilliance of Don Rumsfeld's light, small force theory of warfare:

The swift three-week victory in Iraq was a vindication of a vision of military transformation that began with pioneers like former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff William Owens, was picked up and championed by Sen. Joseph Lieberman (D-Conn.) and former Sen. Dan Coats (R-Ind.), and is now being taken up by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. What we witnessed was a new kind of warfare based on lightning speed, precise targeting, total information dominance and the adaptability and flexibility to react quickly to changing realities on the ground. [...]

The United States should accelerate the transformation it has pioneered. With the world's most powerful industrial-age military, we have a buffer of capability that allows us the freedom to change. Even with an accelerated transformation, we could easily sustain and support enough old-era tactics to deal with any conceivable military challenge that might emerge during the transition. And, as the war in Iraq has shown, transformation brings more capability, not less. It might mean somewhat higher defense budgets in the near future to kick the defense establishment into a higher transformational gear. But once acceleration began, savings would emerge that are inherent in transforming a massive, slow-moving institution designed for attrition warfare into a smaller, faster, more agile force designed for quicker, decisive warfare -- as we saw in Iraq.

I promise you that there's nothing in there about how Bush obviously needs to send more troops to Iraq. Ken Pollack and Daniel Bynum, also writing for the DLC, envisioned "as many as 200,000 troops" that "should be replaced by a multinational force of 50,000 to 100,000 troops, including American and foreign forces" within one or two years.

This business, in short, short, about how maintaining security in an Iraq-sized country requires 450,000-550,000 troops, while it was something you could tell from the historical evidence, was ignored not just by Don Rumsfeld, Doug Feith, and George W. Bush, but by essentially all war proponents across the political spectrum. The reason is pretty clear -- there would have been no war had its advocates made accurate forecasts about the levels of resources required. Among other things, someone might have noted that the US Army doesn't have enough soldiers to deploy several hundred thousands troops to Iraq on anything resembling a sustained basis.

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"One underappreciated subject that came up researching my book was the extent to which segments of "liberal hawk" opinion not only endorsed the invasion of Iraq, but also some of the "incompetent" approach to occupation-management, that they tended to later portray as Bush's blunders, responsible for screwing up the glorious wars that existed in their head."

The Bush blunder, of course, wasn't going into Iraq with too light a force. It was going into Iraq with a light force while having maximal policy goals.

If the policy goals had been to merely depose Saddam while leaving the same power structure in place, now chastened from being hostile to America, a light force would have been perfectly sufficient.

The blunder was the mismatch between force and goals, not the simple fact of going in with a light force.

Speaking of resources, don't forget that no one ever would talk about accurate forecasts of what the bill was going to be.

Someone (hint) should ask Bill Nordhaus how many of the really serious folks paid any attention to his NY Review article outlining what this little adventure was going to cost. I believe that he got it pretty much right.

Yes, it can still make one's skin crawl to realize how clueless the Washington establishment--not just the Bush regime--was about the occupation of Iraq (not to mention Afghanistan). This after watching the Soviets in Afghanistan and also the, in retrospect, amazingly sensible and efficacious policing in the wake of the Balkan conflict, which offered numerous caveats for those who were paying attention--not the least of which is that you had damn well better have enough boots on the ground.

But suddenly, in Iraq, the looting of the National Museum wasn't a red flag because--ha, ha!--the good stuff had already been hidden! (Never mind the fact that it was a high-profile and paradigmatic display of the incipient anarchy gripping the country). There was a video-game psychosis to the proceedings: Shock and awe, y'all! It was as if, given Google maps and virtual computer models of Iraq's terrain, the whole enterprise could be shrunken down into Paul Bremer's laptop....

The Bush blunder, of course, wasn't going into Iraq with too light a force. It was going into Iraq with a light force while having maximal policy goals.

If the policy goals had been to merely depose Saddam while leaving the same power structure in place, now chastened from being hostile to America, a light force would have been perfectly sufficient.

Permit me to observe, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, that this strikes me as just a mite pie-in-the-sky. Especially the "chastened" part.

I also don't think the Iraq debacle should be an argument against the kind of military transformation that Rumsfeld was seeking. I don't know much about it, but its possible there was some merit in it.

In general, I'm in favor of a smaller military, with emphasis on technology R&D rather than on "boots on the ground".

The fact that our current Commander in Chief happens to be a moron is neither here nor there with regard to what kind of military we should have in the future.

"Permit me to observe, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, that this strikes me as just a mite pie-in-the-sky."

I'm not sure how hindsight would enter the issue, since this road was not the one we headed down.

And while matching force to goals would have avoided the main blunder committed by the administration, that doesn't in any way imply that going in light with minimal goals would have been strategically wise. It just would have avoided the tactical insanity we've witnessed.

What I do not understand is what is stopping the administration from increasing the size of the army, to say end-of-Cold War levels? Why not bring the size of the AVF back to 800,000? This would solve your "resources" issue.

So I guess Matt will start heaping praise on the judgement of the the king neocon, Bill Kristol, who also favored the 500,000 troop scenario?

In general, I'm in favor of a smaller military, with emphasis on technology R&D rather than on "boots on the ground".

Jim W--I used to think there was some merit to this as well, not leastwise because I may have once thought that a smaller military might limit the likelihood that we would get ourselves mixed up in overseas clusterf**ks because, in turn, we lacked the forces to think we could pull them off in the first place.

However, recent history leads me to believe that if we ever put someone like the Bushbots in charge again (and re: stuff like this, there's depressingly little space between the Bushbots and Hillary et al), simple lack of actual resources to fight a war 'properly' may, sadly enough, not amount to much of a brake on the ambitions of The Very Serious People.

Petey--

The 'hindsight' I refer to relates to the ability of the US (or anyone, for that matter--see, e.g. the IDF in re: Hamas) to 'chasten' the kind of enemy that we really ought to be concerned about. Taking Saddam down didn't (and wouldn't have, even in the scenario you envision) do a damn thing to 'chasten' the people who fly airliners into buildings or blow up subway trains. It's a destructive and hubris-soaked waste of money and lives, even if it would have been a smaller waste the way you would have done it.

The mismatch between force and goals also applies to the War on Terror in general. We're told this is a major existential conflict as vitally important as World War II or the Cold War, but we're also told to go shopping. Where's the draft? We cut taxes instead of raising them, as has been done in every previous war.

It's rather futile to look for an HONEST idea in the Neocons' writing. In my opinion , they are whores who make a middle class living by developing misleading sophistry to justify whatever agenda their wealthy patrons want to promote. Sophistry which has cost 3600+ American lives alone.

It's kinda hard to get people to give their lives for the campaign donations of Israeli billionaire Haim Saban or the wealthy shareholders of Chevron.

So military operations for private interests always have to be cast as a war to defend the Motherland. Which requires adept distortions of reality.

We are the modern day incarnation of the Roman Empire -- and ancient writers note that Empire was built under the pretext of wars for "national defense".

A British chiefman described the real nature of the Roman empire:
"To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a desert, they call it peace."
--Calgacus

Such empires tend to bankrupt the nations who create them , of course. The US Comptroller recently noted that point -- and suggested that we are headed toward a Roman style collapse:

From http://www.ft.com/cms/s/80fa0a2c-49ef-11dc-9ffe-0000779fd2ac.html

"The US government is on a "burning platform" of unsustainable policies and
practices with fiscal deficits, chronic healthcare underfunding,
immigration and overseas military commitments threatening a crisis if action
is not taken soon, the country's top government inspector has warned.
....
Drawing parallels with the end of the Roman empire, Mr Walker warned there
were "striking similarities" between America's current situation and the
factors that brought down Rome, including "declining moral values and
political civility at home, an over-confident and over-extended military in
foreign lands and fiscal irresponsibility by the central government".

"It's a destructive and hubris-soaked waste of money and lives, even if it would have been a smaller waste the way you would have done it."

The way I would have done it?

Go Cheney yourself. And pick up some basic reading comprehension while you're at it.

Petey--sorry.

Not being completely sure what you were proposing, I mentally transcribed 'If the policy goals had been' into 'A more reasonable policy would have been'.

But No, I will not 'Go Cheney myself', thank you very much.

Re: "The mismatch between force and goals also applies to the War on Terror in general. We're told this is a major existential conflict as vitally important as World War II or the Cold War, but we're also told to go shopping. Where's the draft? We cut taxes instead of raising them, as has been done in every previous war."

I think this is a common misconception. The error isn't that Bush didn't put us on a war footing. The error is the idea that we are at war in the first place. The terrorists are small potatoes. I don't know why people are still buying into the myth that they are a huge danger to us.

The danger is modern technology. As long as we keep terrorists from possessing nuclear or biological weapons, we'll be fine.

It seems that this has been a cycle on a lot of issues regarding the Iraq war. For instance, in early '06 (I think, my memory is hazy on this), there were some rumblings about Iraq descending into civil war. The right-wing noise machine's response was to slam and smear and tar war critics as, well, you know the drill by now. At present, I don't see a whole lot of MSM or right wingers giving props to Arianna Huffington or Jack Murtha for predicting correctly, and I wouldn't expect them to, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside the white house who wouldn't admit that Iraq is, to put it delicately, having some sectarian issues. The problem is, those who were slamming war critics before as useful idiot a**holes for the terrorists are now acting as if any fool can see that Iraq has been in a civil war for years. Well, yes, a lot of us fools have seen it for years, when they were hollering that anything less than giving the white house blowjobs in print was treason.

Dave,
Kristol might have wanted 500,000 but he had to know that they'd never get that amount to invade. There is no way a draft would ever pass. Kristol is just trying to play CYA.

Iraq-sized country requires 450,000-550,000 troops ... was ignored ... by essentially all war proponents across the political spectrum. The reason is pretty clear -- there would have been no war had its advocates made accurate forecasts about the levels of resources required.

What makes you so sure that they were arguing in bad faith? (That is what you're saying here about "essentially all" Iraq war supporters, isn't it?) It could just as easily been faulty reasoning in good faith, wishful thinking, or simply overestimating the power of a high-tech military.

What makes you so sure that they were arguing in bad faith? (That is what you're saying here about "essentially all" Iraq war supporters, isn't it?) It could just as easily been faulty reasoning in good faith, wishful thinking, or simply overestimating the power of a high-tech military.

Insert, long, erudite discussion of the Powell Doctrine here, which I can't be bothered to write unless someone offers me money to do so.

I am clearly not part of the foreign policy establishment, posting as I am anonymously on your blog, but *I* said you'd need 450,000 to 500,000 troops, and *my* estimates were based not on pie-in-the-sky, look-at-our-light-army b.s., but the same established Army doctrine that General Shinseki relied upon when he went before Congress and said *the exact same thing.* Where's my WaPo column, or sinecure at the Brookings Institution?

Incidentally, I also predicted that the who de-baathification and disbanding of the army would take place before it was ordered, and that it would be a mistake. It's the same thing that had been done after WWII (the de-nazification policy). In Germany, however, the problem was corrected in a few years, as de-nazification rules were eased, and we had enough troops on the ground, and the entire German populace was weary of war after 5 years.

Is this sort of thing the reason why they are trying to keep kids from learning about Darwin's theory of evolution?

Darwin's theory indicates that evolution occurs when the less fit are weeded out. That's the basis, e.g., of genetic algorithms. OTOH, in our punditocracy and among "serious foreign policy" and "military policy" "thinkers", we keep seeing opinions being sought from the same people who were already wrong.

People talk about performance testing for teachers? How about performance testing for pundits, professional policy kibitzers, etc.? If you are right more often than most, you get rewarded with commentator positions, cushy think tank jobs, etc. If you are wrong too often, you get laid-off (and because, I'm a nice, liberal sorta feller who doesn't wanna see people starve ... let's say, give 'em maybe not golden parachutes, but silver, or at least copper ones).

If only the fittest survive, then we'll see increasingly optimal policies being produced from our punditocracy.

Of course, those who would deny evolution would deny this strategy and prefer the way things work now with our (un-)intelligently designed system of "serious thinkers" giving policy advice and setting the bounderies of "reasonable debate". And maybe that's the plan. Some certainly do benefit from the current system and hence want to deny any evolutionary thinking that might undermine that status quo.

Last Liberal Hawk: what follows is intended to be deadly serious. It will sound like snark. I assure you that it is not.

Why haven't you enlisted?

Therefore, the answer to your question is in that one.

For more discussion, and (I must warn you) a bit of vitriol, I suggest you pose your question on the comment threads at www.intel-dump.com. You will probably not get a great deal of respect, but liberal hawks who aren't in the reserves invite that upon themselves. You will get very serious and thoughtful answers to your queries from professional recruiters, current and former.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one, Matt: Rumsfeld's "light, small force theory" is maneuver warfare at its finest, and was probably the only part of the whole misadventure that performed to spec. The problem is, we understood that the aftermath of removing Hussein was going to be far more important than the initial war itself.

However, if one's priority is, as Rumsfeld's was by accounts, to simply eviscerate an enemy state, the "thunder runs" to Baghdad proved that America's military can concentrate more bang for its buck than any other modern force. By even refusing to consider the occupation, the military force was, as you note, critically light on manpower. But that doesn't invalidate Rumsfeld's force-deployment theory; it just shows that you need to not give a crap about the people in the enemy country afterwards if that's the whole of your plan.

These new tactics--smaller high tech forces--might well work, for the purpose for which they were designed, beating another army on a battlefield. Iraq might not have been the best test of them, because the Iraqi army was not a particularly competent opponent.

The new tactics were never designed to accomplish a military occupation or counterinsurgency. If we want to do military occupation or counterinsurgency, we need an army configured to do those things, not an army configured for a high tech battlefield.

If you want to make fried chicken, a deep fryer is a very useful tool. Less useful if you're trying to bake a pie, though.

It could just as easily been faulty reasoning in good faith, wishful thinking, or simply overestimating the power of a high-tech military. - Soro

Suppose they were arguing in good faith. The writing was on the wall for all to see. Someone who was so dense as to believe these things in good faith, we should simply not listen to in terms of their suggestions because they have proved themselves to be too dense to meaningfully contribute. And yet these are the people who are considered the "experts"?

Noel Maurer,

Not sure if I understand what you are getting at. I suggested raising the strength of the Army component of the all-volunteer force to 800,000 -- the level maintained at the end of the Cold War -- as a means to solve the inadequate military resources issue referred to in the post.

Why should that suggestion require my enlistment?

Are you just relying on a variaton of the chickenhawk argument? I can't propose an increase in the size of the armed forces unless I myself am willing to enlist?

If there are other obstacles/barriers to recruting the additional 300,000, I would be interesting in hearing about them.

Matt, a completely excellent point. Michael O'Hanlon completely obfuscated this point in his interview with Greenwald - he claimed to be a Shinseki fan, but he was either being uncandid or clueless, since his idea is that Shinseki was worried that the invading force was too small. Shinseki said frankly that the force was going to have to occupy Iraq and that it should be at least 400,000 troops.

Now, one of the questions should be: why was Shinseki resisted so much? I think the answer lies in your quote from Nidler. The Iraq adventure was supposed to ease the way for a much more aggressive policy of military interventions. But the only way this could get off the ground is if those interventions could be so cost-lite as to be, as it were, hidden behind the back of the American public. Cost-lite military intervention would be a perfect executive tool - we'd get rid of that cumbersome legislative overviewing of the military. We were halfway there during the cold war, having trashed the idea that the Congress had to declare war before the president committed troops. Going all the way would make the military a neat executive mercenary force.

The fly in the ointment would be resourcing such a force over the long haul. That would mean the American people would sorta notice what was going on. The people were only required, in the optimistic all war all the time scenario, as extras at the pageant. They'd love the mission accomplished photo op. They'd rave at the president with balls of steel. And they'd go back to their adjustable rate mortgages and think nothing of it. Iraq, Iran, Syria - the world was our oyster.

Although it is ever so tiresome to evoke the Nazis , this kind of warfare has its origins in the way the Nazis devised an economic system in Germany in the 38-42 period that would continue to produce prosperity for the Germans - the first country out of the worldwide depression, via military Keynesianism - while producing victories for the Fuehrer. The war without sacrifice divorces war from the state it is supposedly waged for. However, the German version was rooted in an economy that was much too shallow. One needs a good fifty years of routinizing a war economy, which gives people the feeling that giant military budgets are good. You need that time to create a discourse in which war is routinely held up as a good, necessary and normal part of the state's function. However, the down side is that the war machine you build is path dependent. If the war you chose actually lasts for any length of time and requires resourcing that the population is going to feel, you start down the path to defeat.

Iraq-sized country requires 450,000-550,000 troops ... was ignored ... by essentially all war proponents across the political spectrum. The reason is pretty clear -- there would have been no war had its advocates made accurate forecasts about the levels of resources required.

What makes me so sure that this was a dodge is the fact that it is still going on. O'Hanlon and Pollack are assuring us we just need to wait 5/6 of a Friedman Unit to stay in Iraq, just as they did six months before. The hawks never give you the full price, just the introductory rate to keep the country strung along.

Only in the gaffs such as Ptraeus's nine year projection or Lutes invocation of draft is the real price of a "victory" revealed.

LLH,

I think the idea is that by contemplating your personal reasons for not enlisting, you will gain some insight as to "what is stopping the administration from increasing the size of the army .... back to 800,000?"

Weichi,

My reasons for wanting to enlist or not wanting to enlist at this time or at any other time, have absolutely no bearing on this argument.

My point is that in the not too distant past, our armed forces -- without the assistance of a draft -- were much larger. Compared to the last time the Army was at the 800,000 mark (1991), the US population is now 50 million people larger. But, if you think that it would be impossible to recruit a larger force than why don't you make that argument?

This is new? Didn't the Germans already try this?

"a new kind of warfare based on lightning speed, precise targeting, total information dominance and the adaptability and flexibility to react quickly to changing realities on the ground"

Re: "But, if you think that it would be impossible to recruit a larger force than why don't you make that argument?"

Ok, I will. Anyone who would join the military right now would have to be crazy. If you join now, there's a good chance you'll end up in Iraq, under the leadership of Commander-in-Chief Chimpy. What more argument do you need?

Jim W,

You caught me there. I forgot for a second that "the President is an idiot" is supposed to be the answer to ALL questions.

Good catch.

My reasons for wanting to enlist or not wanting to enlist at this time or at any other time, have absolutely no bearing on this argument.

Sure they do, in so far as they're representative of the rationale of the other several million individuals capable of serving in our military who are not. Rationale, or in your case, rationalization.

If the policy goals had been to merely depose Saddam while leaving the same power structure in place, now chastened from being hostile to America, a light force would have been perfectly sufficient.

Sure, but that would have been a stupid policy goal.

Err, actually most neocons, especially Kristol, were arguing just about from the beginning that we needed more troops in Iraq. In fact, they'd been arguing for years that this notion that technology could somehow replace manpower was ridiculous. See Donald and Frederick Kagan in While America Sleeps, written even before Bush came into office let alone the war in Iraq.

"Idiot Bush" isn't a magic mantra here. The military serves Bush now, not the country. His goals. His intransigence. Someone enlisting now would be enlisting in Bush's army not the army of the United States.

The chief reason -- even beyond his corruption -- that he should be impeached.

jonathan, Joe Strummer, DAS, AJ,

The thing that bugs me here is that it seems like war opponents are not being fair to war supporters (reformed or otherwise). Having been wrong about an important question doesn't prove that someone is an idiot (because the answer was obvious), or that they are nefarious (because they knew the real answer but lied). What you are basically saying here is that 60% of the country (or whatever the number supporting the war was) is of low moral and/or intellectual fiber. What you are saying is that everyone who supported the war is evil or a moron. I think only some of supporters were arguing in bad faith; the rest just made a bad call in good faith.

This has the feel of post-revolutionary bloodlust. "She initially supported the war! Off with her head!"

Dan, is that the reason Kristol vehemently opposed the Iraq war? I didn't know! Having scoped out the fact that it would be a huge failure with his friend Kagan, of course he was out there, with Michael Moore, trying to warn people. I remember now. His advocacy of Howard Dean. His putting Shinseki's face on the cover of the Weekly Standard. His guffaws about the mission accomplished photo op. The man was just a radical. A shame nobody listened to him.

"Err, actually most neocons, especially Kristol, were arguing just about from the beginning that we needed more troops in Iraq"

Well that didn't seem to include many neocons in either Cheney or Rumsfield's shops or those in and around the Defense Policy Board. Take a little look at Salon's compilation 'Cakewalk' and note the names:
http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/feature/2003/03/28/cakewalk/index.html

Perle, Adelman, Cheney, Rumsfield, Wolfowitz. Not exactly out of the neocon mainstream. Could you point out the names of some of these "most neocons" with some links. Sorry not everything just goes down the memory hole anymore.

When Shinseki testified that it would require "several hundred thousand" troops he was saying it could not be done at all, at least not in 2003, and the costs of actually getting a force structure to the point that we could keep that number of troops on the ground would have killed any prospects of tax cuts. So they decided to punt and get their war on while keeping their tax cuts and figuring they could find some way to fool the public later. And it worked for a while.

If there was any substantial pushback from neocons in real time then I just missed it. And I was paying attention, being among the few who actually listened to the subtext of Shinseki's testimony. If neocons really knew this was heading for disaster where the calls of "stop" and "wait"? Instead anybody who even raised their voice was labeled a traitor. And I don't remember Kristol jumping to our defense.

The most important line in the blogsphere: "...there would have been no war had its advocates made accurate forecasts about the levels of resources required."

Iraq hawks weren't dumb or unlucky, their assumptions actively rejected every lesson of prior human experience. The proclaimed brilliance of their theory of warfare was in its declaration that the old lessons of history no longer applied in our new era of computerized information systems.

Their attitude toward time-tested reality was summed in this comment: "...when we act, we create our own reality. We're history's actor's, and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do"

Dramatically speaking, they played "the fool," and at least two nations are the victims of their folly.

Rumsfeld's smaller, quicker, more tactical army wasn't designed to acheive the strategic goal in Iraq. He crafted a screwdriver when we needed a hammer, then came up with a theory that said a screwdriver could do the job better than a hammer ever would.

Who endorsed this sentiment in a open letter by the PNAC on March 13th, 2003?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraq-20030319.htm

"For the next year or more, U.S and coalition troops will have to comprise the bulk of the total international military presence in Iraq. But as the security situation permits, authority should transfer to civilian agencies, and to representatives of the Iraqi people themselves. Much of the long-term security presence, as well as the resources for reconstruction, will have to come from our allies in Europe and elsewhere"

Okay there are some caveats here and there, but no sense of urgency that we were sending too few troops, no strategy about how to get allies in Europe to sign on board after months of vilification, nope the quite literal bottom line was this:

"We offer our full support to the President and Congress to accomplish these vitally important goals."

Ronald Asmus Max Boot Frank Carlucci Eliot Cohen
Ivo H. Daalder Thomas Donnelly Peter Galbraith Jeffrey Gedmin Robert S. Gelbard Reuel Marc Gerecht Charles Hill Martin S. Indyk Bruce P. Jackson Robert Kagan Craig Kennedy William Kristol Tod Lindberg Will Marshall Joshua Muravchik Danielle Pletka Dennis Ross Randy Scheunemann Gary Schmitt Walter Slocombe James B. Steinberg R. James Woolsey

The notion that any part of the neocon movement was putting up any amount of resistance during the immediate runup to the war or at any time before Mission Accomplished is rank revisionism. When the good ship Bushwreck went on the rocks some or all of the rats scurried off certainly, but they were all on deck and saluting smartly when it left port.

Meant to fix that, as the link clearly indicates the letter was dated March 19th.

Re "Having been wrong about an important question doesn't prove that someone is an idiot (because the answer was obvious), or that they are nefarious (because they knew the real answer but lied). "
-----------

1) Well, PROOF is kinda hard when the President buries every memo under several layers of SCI classification. And is allowed to drag his feet in suppressing info from investigating committees.

2) But lets take a shot. In Sept 2002, several Democrats serving on the House and Senate Intelligence Committees (Nancy Pelosi, Senator Bob Graham, Diane Feinstein ) -- with full access to all intelligence -- stated that they had seen no evidence that Saddam was an imminent threat. So why didn't the Neocons address this point. When Richard Perle was asked by Tim Russert on Meet the Press re this, Perle mumbled something about "they haven't seen the intelligence". So how about Fat Richard produce the info now?

3) What puzzled me at the time was why some prominent Democratic leaders --John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards -- just went limp on this subject. Even though they --as Senators -- had enormous power to investigate and to halt the rush to war. It started to make sense only after I looked into who had destroyed Howard Dean's Presidential campaign -- and into who are the biggest campaign donors to Democratic leaders.


4) Look, for example, at Senator Bob Graham's description of how the Administration manipulated the intelligence process in the run up to war -- see http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/interviews/graham.html

5) Here is a more detailed timeline of how America was conned into the war:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.net/context.jsp?item=GrahamAngreyCIAWhitePaper

6) But the BIGGEST indictments against the war supporters is the way in which they have refused to seriously investigate and unearth HOW we went into war. In my opinion, That's not the behavior of people devoted to the national interest -- it's the behavior of people with something to hide.

Re Soro's complaint about being "FAIR", how about we look at WHY the Energy Dept didn't side with the State Department dissent re Iraqi nukes in the NIE used to promote the war? DOE's TOP experts thought the whole aluminium tubes argument was bullshit -- but were told to "sit down and shut up" by a FUCKING human relations asshole.

Said asshole subsequently received a $20,000 bonus from Republican DOE Secretary Spencer Abraham. See http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34042

Guess who's on tap to run Fred Thompson's Presidential campaign?

I'll tell Soros what I consider "fair". If some grieving parent who's lost a son in Iraq picked up a deer rifle and blew William Kristol's brains out, I would not convict that parent if I was on the jury.

"So I guess Matt will start heaping praise on the judgement of the the king neocon, Bill Kristol, who also favored the 500,000 troop scenario?"

You can favor anything when you know it's not going to happen and then turn around and look serious. The troops were never there. If Kristol knew this, then he's dishonest. If he didn't, he's an idiot who has no business being a professional commenter on foreign and military affairs.

Noel Maurer:

"or more discussion, and (I must warn you) a bit of vitriol, I suggest you pose your question on the comment threads at www.intel-dump.com. You will probably not get a great deal of respect, but liberal hawks who aren't in the reserves invite that upon themselves. You will get very serious and thoughtful answers to your queries from professional recruiters, current and former."

Why aren't you in Afghanistan? Why aren't you patrolling our inner cities with other cops?

Self-righteous hypocrite.

The is the thing peaceniks always throw around, because they can't admit that yes Saddam wasn't a very good person. At least in Vietnam, there was an anti-colonial movement.

In Baathist Iraq it was a minority tribe of a minority clan of the minority Sunnis who ran the country. Peaceniks know this, among other inconvenient facts, so they always resort to personal attacks about enlisting. Not a good sign.

"The is the thing peaceniks always throw around, because they can't admit that yes Saddam wasn't a very good person. At least in Vietnam, there was an anti-colonial movement.

In Baathist Iraq it was a minority tribe of a minority clan of the minority Sunnis who ran the country. Peaceniks know this, among other inconvenient facts, so they always resort to personal attacks about enlisting. Not a good sign."

Everybody knows Hussein was bad. No one denies it. However, just because a leader is a bad person doesn't mean you should throw away your nation's strategic and financial position on that. If we tried to overthrow all the bad governments we helped install or (directly or indirectly) backed up during the Cold War alone - Suharto, Mobutu, the Khmer Rouge (supported once they came to power to please China), etc. we would go broke before even getting to Soviet-backed bad governments. This is why we had the no-fly zone in Kurdistan, after all and that actually worked. However, the war was a fundamentally stupid idea partly because of the huge gap between ends our our means to reach those ends. We wouldn't need more people in Afghanistan if we had left the people we already had in Afghanistan instead of sending them to Iraq. Iraq and Iraq War supporters like you are the reason we're backsliding into Afghanistan. Blaming the people with no power - the peaceniks - is just a way for your to project your own inadequacies onto others.

Although violently opposed to the war, I agree with Peter K on the chickenhawk accusation. Far better to spread out and strangle the recruitment of soldiers to feed the vanity war by pointing to the universal application of the pro-war argument that you can, as the Vice President said, have other priorities than going to fight in the war you support. For instance, while other people are over there, you can get a head start on them in education and jobs, and by the time they come back they will be hopelessly behind while you will be their boss. And later on you can cut their health funding and make sure that there are strict criteria so that they don't suck off your good tax money. Thus, combine patriotism (we support the suckers, or volunteers, that went to Iraq) and success by not signing up for the army: it is the American way. On this, I think, we can agree with the so called chickenhawks.

If anyone still wants to try to argue that the Bush Administration did not mislead America in the runup to the Iraq War, I would suggest they address this:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100304A.shtml

Ah, Peter. I have a few minutes; I suppose I'll get down in the mud with you. I do not, of course, expect that I will change your mind.

First, you seem to know nothing about me, and I find it a very sad comment about American society that you immediately made assumptions about whether I have been in the military or been to Afghanistan. You might want to rethink them. Better yet, you might want to refrain from making them in the future.

Second, and this is where I'm reduced to getting into the mud with you, the job of soldiers is fundamentally different from that of policemen.

Policemen are not expected to use violence in the course of their jobs. When they do, the people they use violence against enjoy the full panoply of constitutional protections.

Neither is true of soldiers. In fact, neither can be true of soldiers, if they are to perform their jobs. The use of military force, therefore, is fundamentally immoral. It kills and maims innocent people, and it doesn't matter if those people are wearing uniforms or not. Most of them didn't do anything to the people doing the killing, and none of them have the protections from arbitrary force that any decent government grants to its citizens. It is just plain evil.

But maybe, sometimes, on occasion --- or even often, what do I know? --- doing something evil will prevent a greater evil. The rub is that if a government is going to do something evil in the name of its citizens, then those citizens would damn well share the moral responsibility in any kind of decent society.

We're not such a society, and rarely have been. We outsource evil, and make our cost-benefit calculations in a way removed from the culpability.

Worse yet, we treat the military as just another profession, self-selected on the principle of comparative advantage. That can screw the military, of course --- an absolute advantage is an absolute advantage --- but the real problem is that it's morally wrong. Soldiers aren't police or firemen or EMS workers or crazy-ass academics whose research takes them into free-fire zones. They hurt people in the course of doing their jobs.

So it's not spreading the burden of waging war that really bothers me. What really bothers me is not spreading the responsibility for waging war. It's why I believe that there is something wrong, seriously morally wrong, with countries that lack anything resembling universal military service yet deploy their militaries in ways other than as a true self-defense force or a genuine police service.

A friend of mine once said to me, a long time ago, in the context of a decision that I imagine you all can guess (and which occured before Gulf War II ), "So you're saying that you want to be a human hostage to American foreign policy?"

To which the correct answer is, "Yes. We all should be."

I also agree with the more standard arguments regarding sacrifice, but they are not the argument that I made above.

Third, Peter, regarding this particularly conflict, I'm lost as to why you believe that human suffering has been reduced as a result of our decision to wage it. Is that you believe that such suffering will be reduced in the future? That seems to be a thin reed upon which to base a decision to order men and women to kill and die ... or suffer in ways that can be far worse than death.

As for Liberal Hawk, "dob" answered your question. I'm a bit surprised that you didn't see that. (Thank you, dob!)

Assuming that you are in decent physical shape, then the current Reserve system will allow you to pursue even the most demanding professional career or family responsibilities and still stand ready to assume the moral burdens concurrent with your political opinions. If you are not prepared to assume such burdens, then it would appear that you find your own arguments unconvincing. So, in fact, do most of the Americans that the AVF is attempting to recruit. That is why the AVF is facing such trouble.

800,000 soldiers, by the way, would still be insufficient to field an occupation force of 500,000 for any but a highly-limited span of time. But that's a different issue, which you're free to raise at Intel Dump. Look for the posts by IRRSoldier.

Sorry Noel, you started the food fight with your "chickenhawk" name calling and your queries as to why people aren't in uniform. You personalized. First of all recognize this.

Secondly, you didn't answer the question of why you happen to be typing arguments on a blog and A) not fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan or B) not combating violent gangs in the inner city.

Why force the cops to do it when you don't have to sacrifice to keep the streets safe??? Don't think it's worth it? Got better things to do?

Huh?

I just don't think people in uniform should be the only ones allowed to make foreign policy decisions either. Smells like fascism.

LLH,

As others have pointed out, the point is that your personal reasons are likely representative. Not necessarily representative; you may have personal constraints that most fighting-age men don't face that would make enlisting a very difficult choice to make.

"But, if you think that it would be impossible to recruit a larger force than why don't you make that argument?"

Not impossible, I guess, but I think very unlikely. On the one hand our population is greater, so the pool of recruits is larger. On the other hand, the recruits will be facing a certainty of seeing combat in Iraq, and so they are going to have to ask themselves very seriously whether the risk they are taking with their lives is worth it (the risk of combat and death was of course there for those considering enlisting in in 1991, but I think clearly less immediate than today). Given the unpopularity of the war, I think this effect is going to shrink the pool sufficiently that recruiting an additional 300k is going to be very difficult.

As evidence for my view, I would point to the widely-reported difficulties the Army has had meeting recruiting goals over the past few years. This indicates to me that the pool is shrinking, not growing.

Peter, first, I suggest again that you rethink your assumptions about whether I have been to Afghanistan or in uniform.

Second, I did not insult anyone or begin a "food fight." I simply pointed out that Liberal Hawk's reasons for not enlisting are probably not unrepresentative, and show the difficulties inherent in expanding the AVF.

Third, you appear not to have read what I wrote. I suggest you re-read it. When you do, you will understand why it is immediately clear that you did not bother to read what I wrote.

I find that quite aggravating.

More generally, you would be served in the future if you would refrain from putting arguments in people's mouths. I find that even more aggravating. I hope it's not deliberate, for that would be rude.

Noel,

Peter K is dead on -- the chickenhawk argument is a particularly vile form of facism.

You have no idea if my reasons for enlisting or not enlisting are "representative." Indeed in a country of 300 million people, where 298.5 million people do not enlist, can there be any "representative" reasons? By far, the average American does not enlist. Stastically, the default is to be a civilian, it is only the exceptional that chooses to serve.

Now if you wanted to engage in an intelligent debate we could talk about how people from certain states are more likely to enlist than others, or people from certain family backgrounds, or political persuasions. But that does not seem to be the debate you want to have. You would rather indulge the easy chickenhawk impulse and ask whether I have in fact enlisted.

And that is pretty sad.

You're right, I stopped reading after

" I suggest you pose your question on the comment threads at www.intel-dump.com. You will probably not get a great deal of respect, but liberal hawks who aren't in the reserves invite that upon themselves. "

Kind of heavy tone, loaded with disrespect. Looks like beginning of a food fight I say.

For the sake of argument, say you got a guy who's served and is wearing a uniform arguing for the war and questioning the patriotism of guy who says bring the troops home. Just b/c a guy has experienced war, doesn't make him right. If the guy was arguing this during the Vietnam war, I'd say he was wrong, and that questioning someone's patriotism is besides the point. Just like calling someone a chickenhawk is besides the point, but perhaps an understandable reaction to having one's patriotism questioned.

I'd agree there is definitely a class element to those who decide to "volunteer" for the defense of the homeland and freedom and all that. I totally agree that we need to tax the rich more to get these kids better equipment, more breaks, etc. I find the Republicans miserly behavior in this regard appalling. (while at the same time, you have corruption scandals galore in Congress). I'm glad they lost Congress in 2006. And as everyone predicts, they'll get pasted in 2008.


I give up. LLH, Peter K. is rude and inattentive. You are simply inattentive. Why did I bother making an argument, if nobody will read it? This is worse than a waste of time.

What you are basically saying here is that 60% of the country (or whatever the number supporting the war was) is of low moral and/or intellectual fiber. What you are saying is that everyone who supported the war is evil or a moron.

Are you implying that there is some kind of flaw in this logic? It holds up quite well for me, assuming that "the war" refers to the one in Iraq specifically.

Let me say it for you, verbatim and snark-free:

Everyone who supported the war is evil or a moron.

Peter, I assume that's half a mea culpa for ignoring what I wrote? Assuming that it is, and that you read what I wrote, then consider that the situation you propose is not symmetrical.

It is not hypocritical to refuse to take personal responsibility for maiming and killing in pursuit of specific policy goals if don't think that those goals are worth maiming and killing for. It is hypocritical to to refuse to take personal responsibility for maiming and killing when you do believe that people should be maimed and killed in pursuit of them.

Forgive my language, but maiming and killing --- blowing off people's genitalia, blinding them, removing their limbs, making them live in permanent pain --- is what war entails.

Now, Peter, but it's obvious that fascism does not follow from that position. Hypocrisy is not a crime. You have no idea how annoyed I am that I need to write that explicitly.

If LLH doesn't believe that he should enlist, then he clearly doesn't think that this war is worth maiming and killing people for. That obvious hypocrisy is his own problem, as is the fact that people generally discount arguments given by hypocrites. If you want to call that fascism, then you're just being gratuitous.

Here's the bottom line, ignoring the food fight above:

Rumsfeld was "right" in the sense that we need a much lighter, smaller, AND MORE EFFECTIVE military.

Unfortunately he left out the "more effective" part in his notions. He also left out the part where said military is ONLY used to defend the United States against direct or imminent attack.

If you're going to go around invading other countries - especially if you intend invading MORE THAN ONE - you need a BIG military like we had in WWII. We occupied Germany AND Japan - and how many troops did we have? A few MILLION?

Further, Rumsfeld was, however, totally wrong when he emphasized all the expensive high-tech weapons systems. What you want in a small, light military are supremely well-trained soldiers equipped with just the weapons and logistics they need to get to the enemy and disable that enemy. You don't need a lot of fighter jets, aircraft carriers, or nuclear submarines, let alone anti-missile systems. They're only good against conventional forces and civilian cities. You need high-tech, yes. You don't highly complicated expensive crap.

As for the military in general, anybody who joins a military and places himself in harms way on orders from someone he doesn't know whose situational intelligence he can't judge for reasons he doesn't know deserves to get his butt shot off.

It's nature's way of eliminating the stupid.

And I say that as someone who enlisted in the US Army in 1967 and got sent to Vietnam. I enlisted to avoid the draft, because if you were drafted, you were infantry - and I wasn't that stupid. Unfortunately, I wasn't smart enough to be a draft dodger and go to Canada. But I learned.

Which is why I have no sympathy for the US troops getting killed in Iraq and elsewhere. Well, if they learn and come back and vote never to do it again - which is hopefully the case - then I have some sympathy. The only advantage we may ever get from this war is hundreds of thousands of vets who will never vote for this sort of war crime again.

Or am I giving them too much credit?

Don Williams,

Your posts at 1:46 and 2:02 are amazing when read together. The first one is a helpful, constructive argument citing actual evidence. The second incites the murder of one of your opponents. I guess you got pretty worked up in the course of finding all the links for your 1:46 post, eh?

What I take from the first post is that you think "Iraq war supporter" = "President Bush" in terms of dishonest, culpability, etc. I disagree. At least some of the people who initially supported the war were thinking and arguing in good faith, and I think your refusal to acknowledge that comes from triumphalism (at having been "right all along") and anger (at what Bush has done to the world).

Noel,

One last time. If you think -- as you clearly do -- that the only way one can be in favor of a war and not be a hypocrite is to "enlist" -- than you are a definitional fascist. So start getting comfortable with the label.

LLH, why are you reduced to insults? And stupid ones at that. Facist? "Get used to it?" Like, from you?

I'm sorry that you're defensive about your hypocrisy on the issue of war. By definition, you're a hypocrite if you support a war that you are not willing to fight. It's not a cardinal sin. Everyone is a hypocrite about something. I happen to think that being a hypocrite about foreign wars is a mighty big something, but YMMV.

You do know about the reserves, right? You can enlist straight into them, and stand ready to go if needed for some operation. That would ease your conscience, or at least reduce your urge to call people names.

I will sign off, for this does not end well for anyone.

I'm sure that you will be very persuasive on your anonymous blog, LLH.

"By definition, you're a hypocrite if you support a war that you are not willing to fight."

Which is why I asked if you support the efforts in Afghanistan. The fact that you never answered is why I suspect you do, despite the fact you aren't willing to "kill and maim" for the cause there.

I think the fascist mentality is refected in thinking only the military can make foreign policy. If you're not in uniform, your opinion doesn't matter. The U.S. has something called "civilian control" where the military reports to the President, a civilian, not vice versa.

To give one example, Colin Powell was against doing anything to stop the Bosnian genocide, because the military didn't want to risk anything to save the Bosnia Muslims who had no strategic importance.

Another relevant example. General Douglas MacArthur's public insistence on the need to expand the Korean War, over the objections of President Harry Truman, led to the termination of his command. By Noel's logic, MacArthur trumps Truman, because MacArthur has served.

FWIW, Truman *did* serve. Saw combat in France during WW I.

Weichi,

FDR did not serve. Neither did Lincoln -- unless you count militia service and willingness to "kill and main" Black Hawk indians. Clinton didn't serve.

Do you want to compare these Presidents, who all did not serve but did take the US to war against the presidencies of some of our presidents who did serve:
Nixon, Grant, Taylor, Garfield . . .

Some pretty impressive presidencies . . .

LLH,

I was not making the argument you seem to think I was making. Can't a guy even correct a factual error around here?


Comments closed August 28, 2007.

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