Looks like the Anti-Defamation League is now acknowledging that the Armenian genocide was "tantamount to genocide" (which, admittedly, has a kind of partially pregnant ring to it, but whatever).
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Good News
22 Aug 2007 10:09 am
Comments (34)
Well fine. But next week when Turkey has invaded northern Iraq, abrogated its alliance with Israel, and embraced clerical rule, don't say Foxman didn't tell you so.
I don't have my copy of Power in front of me right now, so I can't look it up, but IIRC "tantamount to genocide" sounds like the dodge used by Baker or Warren Christopher or some Sec. State or other to call spade a spade in Bosnia without actually triggering the legal consequences of calling it a "genocide" per se.
Whatever the details, it's lame. Really lame.
I think the big concern Abe Foxman and ADL have is Israel's water shortage -- a problem that will grow more intense with global warming and which will severely constrain Israel's population growth.
The solution to this problem is one or more pipelines to divert waters from the Euphrates' headwaters to Israel.
Needless to say, Saddam Hussein was NOT happy with this project. An Iraq caught up in a civil war ,on the other hand, will have other issues to worry about.
In fairness, the statement does go on to say:
If the word genocide had existed then, they would have called it genocide.
Which is either an odd sort of semantic relativism, or, more charitably, a clumsy way of saying there was no crime of genocide at the time.
My Grandfather recently died and in going through stuff I found an old rural Iowa paper. I can't remember the exact date but it was from the time of the Armenian genocide. How do I know it was from that time? There was an article about it on the front page. I'll get it out and put up some highlights.
Don, you're saying that Israel provoked the war in Iraq so it could steal Iraq's water without anybody noticing? And that the ADL is somehow involved? And the Masons? And Craig T. Nelson?
1) Some info on Israel's severe water shortage:
a) http://www.jnf.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Water_facts (note mention of deal with
Turkey)
b) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1999/10/06/wgal06.html
c) http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts%20About%20Israel/Land/Israel-s%20Chronic%20Water%20Problem
2) Turkey, conversely, has lots of water and can help Israel out on a matter of national survival. A little bit of geopolitics that our omniscient news media never gets around to telling us.
3) So Abe is in a bit of bind.
Me, I'm just a goyim but even I can see the difference between circumcision and cutting off your yingyang to spite your wife.
Don,
Me, I'm just a goyim but even I can see the difference between circumcision and cutting off your yingyang to spite your wife.
First of all, you can't possibly be "a goyim."
Secondly, I think you're right, just like there's no difference between the Iraq war and Jews drinking the blood of christian babies.
SoCalJustice, you left out this part of the quote:
" Of Jewish babies also, come to think of it."
Or do you think no Jews have died in US military service in Iraq?
*insert witty comment about being a little bit pregnant here*
Don,
That really doesn't make it any better.
I know you can't see that.
A good overview of water rights as a driver for war in the Middle East is here:
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0516-07.htm
This article talks about a water purchase agreement Israel signed with Turkey in 2004:
http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?enPage=ArticlePage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Article^l3386&enZone=Diplomacy&enVersion=0&
My understanding is that the water purchase was recently put on hold due to the high cost:
http://www.uswaternews.com/archives/arcglobal/6israturk4.html
Any minute now, he's going to suggest resettling the Jews in Michigan.
What Scott E. said. Why all the caveats instead of just saying "it was genocide?" Is that so hard?
Re Don Williams
Once again, Mr. Williams demonstrates that he is a schmuck of the first order. His notion that Israel can solve its water problems via a pipeline from Turkey ignores a couple of pertinent facts. Turkey and Israel don't have a common border so the pipeline would have to run through either Syria or Lebanon. Somehow I don't think that either Syria or Lebanon is anxious to solve Israels' water problem. Ultimately, Israel (and Jordan and the PA) will have to address the water shortage problem by undertaking a massive water desalination project. The real reason that the Israeli Government is reluctant to criticize Turkeys' actions vis a vis the Armenians is because Turkey is the only Moslem country having friendly relations with Israel and the latter is reluctant to jeopardize that relationship. This relationship is based to some extent on Turkish dislike of the Arabs (which is, by the way reciprocated) going back to the interactions during the Ottoman Empire which controlled what is now Lebanon, Syria, and Israel/Palestine.
Re "That really doesn't make it any better.
I know you can't see that."
----------
SoCalJustice, why don't you take your dishonest ,posturing prosecutatorial attitude and shove it?
My point in my posts is that ,throughout history, small groups of wealthy elites have brought disaster down upon the greater Jewish community through selfish pursuit of their own ends.
I have made it clear that the majority of America's 6 million Jews are not responsible for the malign acts of the billionaires in the Israel Lobby. But the Israel Lobby is laying the basis for the American Jewish community to be scapegoated in the future for a disaster caused by the greed of Big Oil.
It's happened before.
Most of the German Jews who died in the Holocaust
were loyal to Germany. There were German Jews who held the Iron Cross.
But when wealthy Zionists in America threw their support to Great Britain at a critical point in WWI , in exchange for David Lloyd George's creation of Israel, they deliberately tarred German Jews with the taint of disloyalty. By alienating German Jews from their fellow German citizens, they laid the basis for the future rise of Hitler. This in a country which had welcomed Jews for centuries.
British Prime Minister David Lloyd George explained the Zionists acts in his Memoirs:
"The Zionist leaders gave us a definite promise that, if the Allies committed themselves to giving facilities for the establishment of a National Home for the Jews in Palestine, they would do their best to rally to the Allied cause Jewish sentiment and support throughout the world. They kept their word in the letter and the spirit, and the only question that remains now is whether we mean to honour ours. Immediately the declaration was agreed to, millions of leaflets were circulated in every town and area through - out the world where there were known to be Jewish communities. They were dropped from the air in German and Austrian towns, and they were scattered throughout Russia and Poland. I could point out substantial and in one case decisive advantages derived from this propaganda amongst the Jews. In Russia the Bolsheviks baffled all the efforts of the Germans to benefit by the harvests of the Ukraine and the Don, and hundreds of thousands of German and Austrian troops had to be maintained to the end of the War on Russian soil, whilst the Germans were short of men to replace casualties on the Western front "
During the years of starvation caused by the Versailles Treaty, do you think Germans forgot those WWI propaganda pamphlets?
Some Jewish Leaders in Great Britain, like Lord Montagu and Lord Curzon, had opposed David Lloyd George's deal with the Zionists for this very reason.
I'm not even sure what "tantamount to genocide" is supposed to mean, except in a strictly legalistic sense. Genocide is pretty much a binary affair.
"But when wealthy Zionists in America threw their support to Great Britain at a critical point in WWI , in exchange for David Lloyd George's creation of Israel, they deliberately tarred German Jews with the taint of disloyalty. By alienating German Jews from their fellow German citizens, they laid the basis for the future rise of Hitler. This in a country which had welcomed Jews for centuries."
Wow. Did he just blame "wealthy Zionists in America" for the Holocaust?
Re SLC's comment "Once again, Mr. Williams demonstrates that he is a schmuck of the first order. His notion that Israel can solve its water problems via a pipeline from Turkey ignores a couple of pertinent facts. Turkey and Israel don't have a common border so the pipeline would have to run through either Syria or Lebanon. Somehow I don't think that either Syria or Lebanon is anxious to solve Israels' water problem. "
------------
1) Once again, SLC demonstrates that
(a) A putz shouldn't call people schmucks
(b) Especially when said putz evidently doesn't know how to Google
2) From the Boston Globe, Jan 2007:
"Turkey to extend pipelines to Israel
January 16, 2007
ANKARA, Turkey --Turkey and Israel have tentatively agreed on building a network of pipelines to ship oil, natural gas and water from Turkey to Israel, the Energy Ministry said Tuesday...
..Turkey would also build a new fresh water pipeline to carry Turkish water from the Mediterranean region to Israel.
Turkey and Israel have been discussing fresh water supplies to Israel for several years. However, Turkish plans to transfer oil and gas outside Turkey is a sign of the
country's desire to become a regional energy hub for routes bypassing Iran."
Ref: http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2007/01/16/turkey_to_extend_pipelines_to_israel/
3) The pipelines go under the Med, SLC. Harder for bomb them that way.
God , this is so easy. "High Ashkenazi IQ" my ass. The one spot in the Middle East with NO oil and dry as a bone.
SoCalJustice, why don't you take your dishonest ,posturing prosecutatorial attitude and shove it?
Wow, Don, you really got me there - you are indeed very tough and scary.
Having said that, I'm not in the habit of taking advice from ignorant bigots, so I think I'll pass.
Best of luck to you, though.
PS to SLC
Recall that the huge US-sponsored pipeline to carry oil from the Caspian Sea goes across Turkey from Baku. You know-- the Caspian Sea where CHevron has invested a $Billion plus in oil exploration and drilling.
You know --Chevron. The Chevron who named one of its oil tankers after you know who:
http://www.aztlan.net/oiltanker.htm
In view of the above, how many of you still think Abe Foxman should piss off the Turks over a moral principle??
Going once. Going twice...
A Voz De Aztlan link. Nice.
Starting to make more sense.
http://www.aztlan.net/koshernostra.htm
http://www.aztlan.net/eradicate_israel.htm
Don,
Here are two clues to help you out.
1) Goyim is a plural word, so you can't be a goyim.
2) If you're truly interested in having people come around to your side, maybe you should do it without invoking the blood libel. Or at least try to figure out why that might harm your overall "point(s)."
Just a thought.
Re "A Voz De Aztlan link. Nice."
---------
First link Google puts up for a search on
"Condoleezza Rice Chevron tanker image"
But there is an vast international conspiracy, SCJ.
Only it's not Jewish or German or American --it's monetary -- and you don't have a piece of the pie.
How are you going to explain that to your mother?
What am I supposed to explain to her?
That there's a vast international monetary conspiracy? Or that I'm cut out of it?
I think she'll survive the latter and is aware of the former, although I doubt she views it in exactly the same way you do.
Wow. Did he just blame "wealthy Zionists in America" for the Holocaust?
Sometimes I blame wealthy Zionists in America for the Holocaust. But it's only when I'm wearing my underpants on my head and saying that my mom's a mushroom.
Re Don Williams
1. The article in the Israelinsider describes a plan to ship water by tanker, not a pipeline.
2. The Boston Globe article is rather premature in that the project is currently undergoing a feasibility study (see attached link). The big question is whether the project is cost effective. My suspicion is that desalination plants will be found to be more cost effective (see attqached link).
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1145961328841&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
http://www.uswaternews.com/archives/arcglobal/6israturk4.html
Some Jewish Leaders in Great Britain, like Lord Montagu and Lord Curzon
Moontagu was a younger son of the Scottish Duke of Buccleuch, an illegitimate descendent of King Charles II, and Curzon was an English aristocrat of Norman extraction who had occupied his ancestral lands since at least the 11th century. Anything else you'd like to clarify?
"Curzon was an English aristocrat of Norman extraction who had occupied his ancestral lands since at least the 11th century"
You sure his name's not really "MacLeod"?
1) The Lord Montagu to whom David Lloyd George referred was Edwin Samuel Montagu -- 2nd Baron Swaythling. His father was the Jewish banker Samuel Montagu, 1st Baron Saythling.
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Samuel_Montagu
2) In his Memoirs, David Lloyd George noted:
"Mr. Montagu urged strong objections to any declaration in which it was stated that Palestine was the "national home" of the Jewish people. He regarded the Jews as a religious community and himself as a Jewish Englishman. He based his
argument on the prejudicial effect on the status of Jewish Britons of a statement that His Majesty's Government regarded Palesline as the national home of Jewish people. Whatever safeguarding words might be used in the formula,
the civil rights of Jews as nationals in the country in which they were born might be endangered. How would he negotiate with the peoples of India on behalf of His Majesty's Government if the world had just been told that His Majesty's Government regarded his national home as being in Turkish territory? "
3) I wonder what Lord Montagu would have thought of the British soldiers being killed by the terrorist bombing of the King David's Hotel in Palestine?
As I recall, Democratic leader Rahm Emmanuel's father belonged to the Irgun, no? Wonder what he thinks when Rahm talks about the US "war on terrorists"??
On the other hand, I made a mistake re Lord Curzon. Curzon was Irish, not Jewish.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Curzon
I was thrown by Curzon's memo --listed in Lloyd George's Memoirs -- in which Curzon noted that
"If this is Zionism there is no reason why we should not all be Zionists, and I would gladly give my adhesion to such a policy, all the more that it appears to be recommended by considerations of the highest expediency, and to be urgently demanded as a check or counterblast lo the scarcely concealed and sinister political designs of the Germans "
Comments closed September 05, 2007.
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Heads in the Sand
Never underestimate the political prowess of the Watertown, Massachusetts Armenian community. They have mad pull.
Posted by owenz | August 22, 2007 10:23 AM