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03 Aug 2007 05:34 pm

John "The Israel Lobby" Mearsheimer isn't shying away from controversy. He says he sees four options for Israel/Palestine -- A two-state solution, a binational solution, the expulsion of the Arab population from a Greater Israel, and the construction of a Greater Israel governed along apartheid lines -- and that he thinks the apartheid outcome is the most likely one. He says Israeli leaders, despite agreeing to the UN partition plan, have never been interested in seeing the creation of a viable Palestinian state and he includes Yitzhak Rabin (though he says the Palestinians got "tantalizingly close" to a viable state at Camp David and Taba) in that category.

To Mearsheimer, the key point is that the mainstream Israeli view would create a Palestinian state that doesn't control its own airspace, its own borders, or its own water supply -- conditions that he says don't create the basis for a viable state. I don't imagine you'll see any of the Democratic politicians stopping by the conference tomorrow endorsing these views or anything like it.

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Comments (81)

While we're playing fantasy foreign policy, why not consider retroceding the West Bank to Jordan, and provide some sort of considerations for getting to the Gaza strip? Wouldn't that be preferable to the "apartheid state" solution?

He says Israeli leaders, despite agreeing to the UN partition plan, have never been interested in seeing the creation of a viable Palestinian state and he includes Yitzhak Rabin (though he says the Palestinians got "tantalizingly close" to a viable state at Camp David and Taba) in that category.

Sounds to me like his views on this are pretty incoherent. The Palestinians got "tantalizingly close" in 2000/early 2001 to viable statehood, and yet the mainstream Israeli view won't support giving them one? In point of fact, Olmert's platform for a further unilateral withdrawal/"convergence" in the West Bank in the most recent Israeli election was pretty much the same as what was on offer at Camp David.

Naturally the Palestinians don't think that's enough, and Clinton's parameters in particular offered them more. But if Mearsheimer thinks that those terms on offer under Clinton and Barak were "tantalizingly close" to viable statehood, AND given the fact that they now constitute the absolute minimum baseline for any Israeli offer (which is clearly understood among the center and the left in Israel), then why does Mearsheimer think it's all hopeless?

The 5th Solution: Disbanding Israel and asking the right-wing fundies how they'd mind a few million new immigrants.

The immigrants wouldn't piss them off, since the Jews are the chosen people, but forestalling the Apocalypse as described by Revelations and interpreted by Pat Robertson would induce several million simultaneous conniption fits. The tremors would be so severe they could trigger small earthquakes. it would be a supernatural disaster.

Really, how long before demographics force someone's hand in a radical direction. Aren't we only about a generation away from having a Jewish minority in Greater Israel, prompting Palestinian leaders to just ask for a single state with "one man - one vote"? So, if a two state solution isn't worked out in the next 20 years, or so, how does Israel avoid a single state solution which results in a non-Jewish majority state? I'm really curious here on why people here think this is an unlikely solution. Unilateral withdrawal of the occupied territories doesn't seem to be cutting it as a response.

ISRAELI JEWS: STOP BEING SO RESPONSIBLE AND SHIT OUT SOME KIDLETS. MAYBE DITCH THE SHEET- IT'S CATCHING TOO MUCH SEED!

Re Mearsheimer

"He says Israeli leaders, despite agreeing to the UN partition plan, have never been interested in seeing the creation of a viable Palestinian state and he includes Yitzhak Rabin (though he says the Palestinians got "tantalizingly close" to a viable state at Camp David and Taba) in that category."

Naturally, serial Israel basher Dr. Mearsheimer blames the Government of Israel for the failure to achieve a Palestinian state. The problem which asshole liars like Mearsheimer don't tell their listeners is that the Palestinian concept of a Palestinian state includes all of Palestine with the Government of Israel going out of business. Dr. Mearsheimer is nothing more then a goyim version of Norman Finkelstein and a blight on the Un. of Chicago. When it comes to the Middle East, Dr. Mearsheimer doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

Really, how long before demographics force someone's hand in a radical direction. Aren't we only about a generation away from having a Jewish minority in Greater Israel, prompting Palestinian leaders to just ask for a single state with "one man - one vote"?

It's more like only a few years away--I think it's projected to happen in the next five years. That is, more Arabs than Jews in the overall Israel + Gaza + West Bank territory.

But I'm not sure why people who bring this up always seem to forget about the fact that Palestinian leaders were demanding a one-state solution for about two decades after the Six Day War, and getting absolutely nowhere. Why anyone would expect the situation to change radically overnight upon a switch from a 51/49% split between Jews and Arabs in Israel+Gaza+WB to 49/51% is not something I've ever understood. Even after that balance shifts, nobody in Israel or in the rest of the international community will be any more willing to accept a one-state end-of-Zionism proposal than they have been up to this point. The Palestinians will get nowhere if they ever revert back to that radical a position, no matter what the population percentages are.

The simple fact that continued conflict and occupation is bad for the Palestinians, bad for Israel, and bad for everyone else too is the key driving factor, not population percentages. The only answer remains a two-state solution, just like it's always been.

What the Palestinian vision of a Palestinian state is has no bearing whatsoever on Mearscheimer's point. There is nothing to be gained by this childish attempt at misdirection. I can just see SLC now, jumping up and down, sobbing, pointing, and screaming "IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT! IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT!" while snot dribbles off his chin.

We won't know the Middle East from a hole in the ground if we don't fix the Israel-Palestine problem and soon, and that involves taking away Israel's toys and telling them to for fuck's sake once and for all cut the bigoted bullshit and embrace full equal Palestinian Autonomy.

OH NO! They've just revoked my lifetime pass to Myopic Zionist Fantasyland! The horror- I guess it's Disney for me and all my faggot friends.

There's a fifth option, the Arabs eventually kick the Israelis out.

How long did the Crusaders hold Jerusalem before Saladin kicked them out?

That's just because the Crusaders couldn't stomach tossing Saladin...

Re beowulf

The crusaders didn't have 600 nuclear weapons at their disposal.

Re Gregerio

"We won't know the Middle East from a hole in the ground if we don't fix the Israel-Palestine problem and soon, and that involves taking away Israel's toys and telling them to for fuck's sake once and for all cut the bigoted bullshit and embrace full equal Palestinian Autonomy."

The Palestinians are not interested in full equal Palestinian Autonomy unless it encompasses all of Palestine and the Government of Israel agrees or is forced to go out of business.

Re Gordon Lightfoot

"What the Palestinian vision of a Palestinian state is has no bearing whatsoever on Mearscheimer's point."

Absolute and utter rubbish. Mearsheimer blames the Government of Israel for there not being a Palestinian state. Apparently, the Palestinians deserve not the slightest smidgen of blame according to the self-appointed Middle East expert. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter a tinkers damn what the Government of Israel does or doesn't do, unless it is prepared to go out of business. Ain't going to happen.

@SLC:

Oh the myth of the insatiable Palestine. We don't have to do what's right because they want more than they deserve. I'll remember that one next time my kid gets hungry. "Fuck no you're not getting a PB&J sandwich you sniveling little twat, because I can tell you're lusting after a Sirloin Steak! It's starvation for you until you think within your means!" Who TF is Israel, Alec Baldwin?

Dr. Mearsheimer is nothing more then a goyim version of Norman Finkelstein and a blight on the Un. of Chicago.
Surely, SLC, you recall how Marty Peretz was roundly mocked for calling Kennedy School prof Stephen Walt's career "lackluster". Well, you've just done Peretz one better. John Mearsheimer is, after Kenneth Waltz, the most influential realist scholar of the second half of the 20th century. He is one of the handful of giants that IR theory has, and you dismiss him at your own peril. But don't just take my word for it. Ask international relations professors, who voted Mearsheimer the fifth most influential academic in their field. Say what you will about him, but he's no Norman Finkelstein.

The crusaders didn't have 600 nuclear weapons at their disposal.

Ooh, waving around that big nuclear schlong doesn't quite jibe with the official 'nukes? what nukes?' line.

But naturally, rabid Likudnik SLC is here to cast about strawmen and thinly-veiled smears. It would be more amusing if SLC were a parody troll, because that would allow us to concentrate our scorn on Martin Peretz.

The politics on the ground right now make it easier for people to push SLC's preferred option -- the one that works on the pretense that Palestinian Arab identity is revisionist history -- but that's got repercussions across the region.

You don't know anything, Mr. SLC. Admit it, you aren't even commenting for the purpose of communication anyway. Politics is just a way for you to vent your spleen. It's straight out of Brave New World-you have an adrenal gland, but no giant human eating beasts to flee from. You get your food from supermarkets, and all the risks that used to be associated with living have ceased to play a role in human life. So what do you do? Why you imagine up these evil people, conveniently far away, who you can direct all those negative emotions towards. Those evil, no good Palestinians, for instance. You didn't come to your opinions through careful thought. They are just a way for you to perpetuate your own dysfunctional relationship with outmoded instincts, rendered obsolete by technology, the vestigial remnants of a bestial past. Let it go already.

Have you ever noticed how vastly much more attention is paid in the America press to Israel, a country of 6 million an ocean away, than to Mexico, a country of 109 million that shares a 1,952 mile border with us?

For example, last year a popular leftist uprising seized control of the big Mexican city of Oaxaca, a common destination for American tourists, but this seemingly interesting news created barely a ripple in the American media compared to the tsunami of reporting on Israel.

Why is that?

Re Gregerio

Apparently, Mr. Gregerio thinks that what's right is that the Government of Israel agree to go out of business. Not going to happen.

Re Gordon Lightfoot

So far, Mr. Lightfoot has conspicuously failed to show that my characterization of the Palestinian demand that the State of Israel go out of business is inaccurate and unreliable. OK Mr. Lightfoot, tell the readers, what is it that the Palestinians want. And don't give us the same old crap that all they want is an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel. They could have had that on several occasions, starting in 1948 and have rejected it each time.

Re pseudonymous in nc

"The politics on the ground right now make it easier for people to push SLC's preferred option -- the one that works on the pretense that Palestinian Arab identity is revisionist history -- but that's got repercussions across the region."

I don't have the slightest idea what Mr. pseudonymous is talking about. I haven't described any option, preferred or otherwise.

Steve, I think you know the answer to your own question. I can't figure out your motivation for asking it, though, so may I ask you why you did?

The answer to is quite simple: none of Mexico's problems could result in a war that might kill hundreds of thousands of people.

The Oaxacan ... uh ... well ... tumult certainly doesn't. The strikers didn't really seize control of much of anything outside the central square and the university. They couldn't even get the governor to resign.

The continuing demonstrations and occasional riot makes for a mess --- but it's not the intifada. It certainly isn't the Hamas-Fatah civil war. I recommend you go and check it out personally if you're interested ... that's not advice I'd give about, say, Gaza.

Anyone who googles my name will realize that I've got a strong stake in greater attention to all things Mexican. Which means that if I don't understand the point of your question, Steve, I'm probably not alone, and it might be worth explaining why you asked it.

... and the construction of a Greater Israel governed along apartheid lines -- and that he thinks the apartheid outcome is the most likely one.

I think he is probably right, in the short run. But some day there will be a major regional war in the Middle East, possibly even a world war in which the Middle East is only one theater. And during that war, Israel will finish the job of expulsion it began in 1948. Since the conflict in Palestine will only be one episode in a much larger and more diverting global story, there will be no effective international resistance to the expulsion. And following the war, when the dust settles, there will be little political will to reverse the expulsion, and the new facts on the ground will be recognized and legitimized, as a postwar status quo usually is.

No, Steve wants you to say that we just don't care about no dirty rotten Mexicans. Your answer is disappointing and uninsightful. How dare you suggest that rational grounds undergird the difference in coverage between these two regions; the real answer is White Hypocrisy.

Noel,

"The answer to is quite simple: none of Mexico's problems could result in a war that might kill hundreds of thousands of people."

Then what's the answer to why Israel-Palestine gets so much more attention than the India-Pakistan conflict? Certainly the potential casualties there are far greater, no?

Steve Sailer pays to perform fellatio on undercover cops. The proof is here: http://wonkette.com/politics/bob-allen/

PS: No shocker here, the undercover cop was black!

Whoops! I meant to say McCain campaign co-chairman Bob Allen. What an awful mistake! It must be my inferior messican heritage acting up again! With me, the enlgish, it ees almos to hard.

@Fred: Because FOR SOME FUCKING REASON, YOU NUMBSKULL, PALESTINE ISN'T EVEN A COUNTRY! CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?! THAT'S WHY STATEHOOD GETS SO MUCH PLAY IN THE LIBBYRAL MEDIA!

AS FOR PAKISTAN, THERE ARE TWO OF THOSE, EVEN IF ONE IS ALL UNDERWATER AND SHIT.

You see, that's the real problem with Republican homosexuals. It isn't that they are traitors. It's that they are so repressed they don't even know where to go when they feel like handing out free blow jobs. Did no one clue him in to Craigslist? What a pity.

I love how SLC calls me "Gregerio." It's like he refuses to deny me the glory of my god-given fake ethnic name or something— for shame, you Mormon- Zionist pigdog!

@Gordon: Perhaps Allen just wanted to get the taste of AIPAC out of his big fat ugly mouth.

In point of fact, Olmert's platform for a further unilateral withdrawal/"convergence" in the West Bank in the most recent Israeli election was pretty much the same as what was on offer at Camp David.

Assuming you mean Camp David and not the Clinton parameters (as nebulous and mendacious as those could be read) or Taba the operative word would be "viable".

Noel Maurer asserts the lack of coverage in the U.S. of Mexico relative to Israel is due to:

"The answer to is quite simple: none of Mexico's problems could result in a war that might kill hundreds of thousands of people."

According to Wikipedia, the range of estimates of the death toll in the Mexican Revolution of 1910-1920 is 300,000 to 2,000,000 and that was when the population of Mexico was roughly the size of Israel's today, not 109,000,000.

Now, I'm not saying that a new Mexican Revolution is likely -- the Mexican government, for all its sins, seems pretty good at not overreacting: it hasn't gunned down a lot of people all at once since the 1968 Olympics -- but I am saying that Mexico is an important country in any objective global sense and is vastly important to America because of the 1952 mile border.

It's an easy country to report upon: you can drive to Oaxaca. And there's very little language difficulty in reporting: Spanish is taught in every high school in America, virtually. And it's a very interesting country, with a long connection to American history, such as the Mexican-American war.

But the prestige media in America just aren't very interested in Mexico relative to Israel. Why?

The reason the Israel/Palestine conflict gets so much press, of course, is that Israel in its present form exists because of the support of the United States. We give Israel-- by an enormous margin-- more money, military support, intelligence sharing, diplomatic backing, and other kinds of access and support than any nation on Earth. As much as Steve Sailer and his sock puppet-- I mean, "Fred"-- want to pretend that theres no reason for American media to cover Israel beyond anti-Semitism, the fact is that we are more invested in Israel than we are in any other part of the world (excluding perhaps our forward operating base, Iraq.)

Now, to interject some knowledge here, there has been a general framework for a two-state solution, which is supported by the vast majority of the international community, supported by the large majority of Palestinians, supported in most polls by a large majority of Americans familiar with the issue, including American Jews. Despite what SLC seems to think, this plan (again, supported by the Palestinian authority, as well as the major Arab states) leaves 80% of greater Palestine in the hands of Israel, and only 20% in the hands of Palestinians. This plan has been blocked, one way or another, by America and Israel. So what's the issue? The issue is contiguity.

Palestinian lands are now divided-- by the wall, by Israeli settlements, by Israeli checkpoints, by highways and roads. People hate to hear that the point of the wall was for anything other than keeping out suicide bombers. But whatever the intention was, the effect of the wall, from a Palestinian point of view, has been to further divide Palestinian communities, separating residences from infrastructure, roads, retail and services, and water (in an arid climate.) That's the condition across much of Palestine; the entire country (or whatever you want to call it) is so chopped up it becomes almost impossible for regular life to go on. People criticize the Palestinians for not developing a viable state. But if you divided Los Angeles up the way Palestine is, the city would simply cease to function. You can't have a functioning community when people literally can't get to one another or where they have to go.

The proposal at Camp David promised a non-contiguous Palestinian state. Palestinian lands would continue to exist in a cantonized state, including a complete divide between Gaza and the West Bank. That is a demand that the Israeli government has never backed down from. And it is a deal breaker. Israeli supporters like to suggest that Palestinians accept "artificial contiguity", where a train line or highways are built to connect Palestinian lands together. But these things don't begin to address the problems that come with non-contiguity. No one in their right mind would try to create a state that way. I wouldn't be so foolish as to ask whether the Israeli's would accept it for themselves.

Matt,
As a commentator I want to say that I really really like you. Apparently you have not been feeling the love for some time. (TPM video 7) Hope you get connected for a good party soon.

Unfortunately your commentators have a talent for hate and vindictive that only the over educated can possess. Mostly we direct it at each other.

I don't know what the solution is either.

As much as Steve Sailer and his sock puppet-- I mean, "Fred"-- want to pretend that theres no reason for American media to cover Israel beyond anti-Semitism

That's not what Sailer was hinting around at. Quite the opposite in fact.

That's not what Sailer was hinting around at. Quite the opposite in fact

Ah. On second thought it seems you're right. I was wrong, sorry.

The point stands, though-- the United States has made Israel our issue. There simply is no other country that enjoys nearly as close a relationship with the US as Israel. That makes Israeli issues newsworthy.

We live in a country where many support/demand some kind of reparation for slavery - which ended more than a century ago. Don't Palestinians who were driven out of what is Israel deserve some compensation? And what kind of Palestinian state was it offered to them - e.g., with what water rights?

To me the only theory under which Israel has a right to exist is that the World employed Eminent Domain to give the Jews a homeland. That is perfectly fine by me - but IMO, Palestinians were never given the fair compensation that is due when Eminent Domain is exercised.

BTW, as a good pagan/heathen, I'm so sick of the three monotheisms fight over the "Holy Land" while really important problems in the world get ignored that if by some chance I was US President, I'd tell the folks there - you have one year to make peace, otherwise, I'm forcibly evacuating the place and bulldozing it flat or nuking it uninhabitable, till it is a flat featureless desert. Everyone involved needs to grow up.

Please note, in my Eminent Domain theory - it would be the whole world, not simply the Israelis, who would have to make compensation to the Palestinians.

Also please note, I do not recognize any "historical" claim of European Jews to the land of Israel. Otherwise, turns out my ancestors wandered through there on their way to India 60,000 years ago. Kindly turn it over to me.

Having been accused of both anti-Semitism and anti-anti-Semitism, along with much else, for asking why the prestige media is more interested in far-off and small Israel than in adjoining and big Mexico, let me point out that I find the _reporting_ on Israel in the NY Times and other major media outlets to be admirably even-handed. (The punditry, of course, is often another story.) I certainly haven't read all of it -- I don't think that's humanly possible -- but the reams I have read strike me as as a model of journalistic fairness.

Similarly, I don't see a lot of bias in the news coverage of Mexico, either -- I just wish there was more of it. For example, a few weeks ago, the title of World's Richest Man appears to have changed hands from Bill Gates to Carlos Slim, who bought the national telecom monopoly from the U.S.-backed Salinas government 15 years ago. That seems pretty interesting to me, but it's not a topic of much interest, apparently, in America.

Similarly, the long history of connections between the Bush family and various corrupt Mexican power brokers, which was uncovered by the small Mexican-American intellectual magazine El Andar in 2001, has aroused virtually no interest in the American press. El Andar is now pretty much out of business, and nobody cares.

Sorry Noel, you just got owned by Sailer.

Those casualties numbers are astonishing. I knew Mexico had a revolution ( Viva Zapata is one of those movies I've heard of but never seen) but that is about two orders of magnitude greater casualties than I would have guessed.

We're a much more populous country than Mexico, but a million war dead is what America lost in the Civil War and World War II combined.

Yes, the Mexican Revolution was horrible -- various armies wandering around, killing and raping and stealing food for almost a decade. It explains a lot about why Mexico was run the way it was for so long afterward -- the political system, with a term-limited elected dictator, that emerged in 1928 helped Mexico stay pretty peaceful for a long time, relative to what the rest of the world was up in the middle of the 20th Century.

The Mexican Revolution was probably the worst thing in Latin America since the Conquest and its subsequent epidemics (other than, maybe, Paraguay's two crazy fight-to-the-death-of-most-of-the-males wars). In general, Latin America avoided most of the really vast kill-for-a-cause slaughters like WWI, the Holocaust, the Ukrainian famine and so forth that Europeans and East Asians went in for in the 20th Century.

Lots of excitement here while I was gone. A few points.

1) I never mentioned anti-Semitism. Rest assured, Steve Sailer doesn't lay awake at night worrying about anti-Semitism.

2) Noel raised the issue of potential casualties, WRT an Israel-related war. The comparison to the India-Pakistan conflict over Kashmir was salient because

A) Orders of magnitude more people have been killed and made refugees in previous India-Pakistan conflicts and

B) India and Pakistan are both nuclear powers, thus the potential casualties in a future conflict are far greater than before.

3) Unless you read The Economist, you are unlikely to read much at all about India, Pakistan, and lots of other important parts of the world in most news magazines here.

4) Gregorio, the zeal with which you and other Dems resort to gay-baiting helps explain to me how gay marriage amendments were so resoundingly defeated at the ballot box, even in putatively liberal states like Portland. I guess there are more gay-haters on the Left than lefties like to admit publicly, but this sentiment is more freely expressed in the anonymity of the voting booth or a blog comment thread.

Freddie,

Do you really think there is "no other country that enjoys nearly as close a relationship with the US as Israel"?

We have no treaty obligation to protect Israel as we do with NATO, Korea or Japan and the US works far closer on national security matters with Britain, Canada and Australia than any other country (New Zealand used to be in the club but we canceled our treaty with them when they booted the US Navy).

Reportedly, those are the only three countries in the world where we never run intelligence operations without the host country's cooperation. In contrast, Israel spies on us and we spy on them-- the Defense Language Institute out in Monterey doesn't teach Hebrew to help girls prepare for their bat mitzvah.

Back in the day, we let the British test nuclear weapons out in Nevada. Allowing a foreign power to detonate nuclear weapons on your soil, now THAT's friendship.

Alright, so what's your hypothesis, Mr. Sailer? I for one, am absolutely certain that there is a large swathe of international news that is not effectively covered by the US media, including what goes on in Mexico and Central/South America. I wouldn't say that Israel is covered too much-rather, that other regions are covered too little. Why do you think that is, hrm? Is there some, specific, single reason you have in mind? I'd love to hear what it is.

Time to calm down the usual Mideast hysteria, and who better to do it but Edward Luttwak? As he wrote, the Mideast isn't worth worrying much about, certainly not to the extent everyone writes about it. It is, in his memorable phrase, "The middle of nowhere"

The long-term prognosis for Israel is not good. I think that the window of opportunity for a two-state solution may already have closed, even if no one realizes it yet. That, in turn, means that the ultimate outcome will be a one-state solution. Israel is not going to give up de facto sovereignty over the West Bank and Gaza. They control the borders and the water supplies and settle their citizens there whenever and wherever they want. They show no signs of being willing to give this up. That means that, ultimately, the Palestinians will transition from demanding a separate state to demanding political equality within all of Mandatory Palestine. In other words, a binational state. For demographic reasons, that would mean the end of the Zionist dream.

Such demands, in the long run, will be irresistible, for the same reason that they were in South Africa. The apartheid nature of policy in the occupied territories is becoming more and more clear. Israel wants the land without the people, but its greed will ultimately lead it to lose both. Virtually no one in the world except the United States supports Israeli intransigence, and the Iraq misadventure has dimmed U.S. public support for Middle Eastern adventurism. Furthermore, Zionist lobbying groups like AIPAC have harmed their long-term position by hewing ever closer to the Republican Party. An increasing number of younger Democrats, even those who are Jewish, are tired of the uncritical support for Israel and on how closely Israeli policy is tied in with apocalyptic religious fanatics. It's not difficult to imagine a future in which Democrats blow off AIPAC the way Bush blows off the NAACP, or where the Democratic Party decides that Muslim votes in Dearborn (in a swing state) are more important than Jewish votes in New York City (after all, we're going to win NY anyway).

Israel has locked itself into a position that can only be maintained with hyperpower support. That support will not last forever, and when it ends, it will be too late for compromise.

What killed Israel? Future historians will identify several primary causes:
*Rabin's assasination and his replacement with Netanyahu
*Barak's cowardly and idiotic decision to continue land theft in the territories during the peace process, which caused Palestinians to understandably accuse him of negotiating in bad faith
*Arafat's cowardly and idiotic decision to cut off negotiations in favor of terrorism, which caused Israelis to understandably accuse him of negotiating in bad faith
*Clinton's unwillingness to act as a truly honest broker, due to domestic political considerations and the fact that his negotiating team consisted of plenty of Jews but no Muslims

As much as Steve Sailer and his sock puppet-- I mean, "Fred"-- want to pretend that theres no reason for American media to cover Israel beyond anti-Semitism

That's not what Sailer was hinting around at. Quite the opposite in fact.

Posted by Ed Marshall

Agree. It is that Jewish backers of Israel(and some Israel-centric Jewish detractors that fixate on Israel above all else)have money and clout and also have heavy presence in in the prestige media. And over the years there has been a successful effort to cast Israel as "Our Special Friend and Best Ally" - both in Zionist and Evangelical quarters which has never really been the case. Financially and diplomatically, unfortunately, and with all the spying, it is more accurate to characterize Israel as "Our Special Burden and Unusable in Any Conflict Semi-Ally".

I remember seeing a map that graphically showed all the countries on a map scaled to size of their number of mentions in articles over 3 months time in 4 major US newspapers, inc. NY Times, LA Times, Wash Post, and either a ST Louis or Chicago newspaper.

The US was kept to scale.

The map showed Mexico as a tiny sprout coming off Texas. The rest of Central America and South America shrunk in their media non-coverage to Bahama-sized islands.

Europe and Japan looked almost normal-sized, but Russia shrunk to Scandanavian dimensions.

Africa was an afterthought under Europe, sort of like looking at a map of Australia and looking again and finally noticing the smallish island under it called Tasmania. Except for Egypt, which was big because it was next to the Really Important Country - which was bigger than Latin America, Africa, and Russia combined in terms of news coverage. Bigger than Japan or China on their own - Yes, Mighty Israel - It was huge!
By the number of articles, more interesting and important than India, Russia, or China.

In fact, it was the lack of coverage of 3/4s of the world that led me to get international papers, then go online to get more balanced international news about Africa, Asia, Latin America, and the Middle East. Not just local stuff in a paper like Delhi Online or Pakistan's The Dawn or Beruit Star or Tokyo Ibun...
Oddly, one of the better papers for Africa, Asia and ME coverage is Ha'aretz in Israel.

Gordon Lightfoot - I wouldn't say that Israel is covered too much-rather, that other regions are covered too little. Why do you think that is, hrm?

Limited space, limited time for news stories. You cannot lavish undue, disproportionate effort on one country's coverage without severely limiting news about other nations.
Something is wrong when a small nation with 1/1000th of the world's population and 1/300 of the global economy consistently gets 40% of the international news, outside Europe, that Americans see. You may think the Israel coverage is "just about right" but most nations or regions outside Australia, Japan, China or Europe get little or no coverage unless something is going wrong and there are dead bodies for the media to feast on.

IMO, the counties and areas that are most important, and ignored way too long, are Latin America, India, Indonesia, and SE Asia.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-resist1aug01,1,884561.story?coll=la-headlines-world

"City officials say measures by the Israeli army to keep Hebron's 150,000 Palestinian residents physically separated from about 700 Jewish settlers in the historic center have forced the closure of more than 1,800 Palestinian shops, about three-fourths of those that once operated in the Old City."

I've never really thought about it before. I don't know how much it matters, really (basically, if Israeli coverage were reduced to a level proportionate to it's relative importance in the world, I still don't think coverage of, say, Africa or Mexico, would rise to fill the void). US unwavering support for Israel has always seemed problematic, especially when it's been billed as necessary to keep a foothold in the Middle East. It always seemed like, if all we cared about was the furtherance of our own influence in the region, selling out Israel could work out quite well for us. Not that I would suggest such a thing, of course. However I remain skeptical that the interests of Israel's security really demand our unconditional support. As far as the Jewish influence on the media, I wouldn't dispute that too much, although I wouldn't go so far as to impute Zionist conspiracies upon it. And I would also note that Evangelicals in this country have a particularly morbid fascination with Israel, so it isn't merely that there is a disproportionate Jewish representation among the media elite, but that a fairly large number of Christians are for their own reasons extremely pro-Israel and anti-Muslim.

Israel may well do a cost/benefit analysis and withdraw from the West Bank, as it withdrew from the Gaza strip.

The notion that this will reduce the level of violence is laughably naive.


"To Mearsheimer, the key point is that the mainstream Israeli view would create a Palestinian state that doesn't control its own airspace, its own borders, or its own water supply -- conditions that he says don't create the basis for a viable state."

Well, duh! Given Palestinian behavior to date, who in their right mind would give them a viable state, right off the bat? They get a state with training wheels on, and if they manage to not go on a murderous rampage for a decade or so, THEN it is allowed to become viable. I thought everybody understood that part of it.

Ok, it's true, what I said about Steve Sailer's motivations was one of the dumber things I've written.

Well, duh! Given Palestinian behavior to date, who in their right mind would give them a viable state, right off the bat? They get a state with training wheels on, and if they manage to not go on a murderous rampage for a decade or so, THEN it is allowed to become viable. I thought everybody understood that part of it.

No, not the non-racist elements among us.

Brett Bellmore, always a nasty idiot.

Re Freddie

\Mr. Freddie repeats the same old lie that the proposed West Bank territory was not contiguous. I have posted a link to the map that was proposed at Taba which included 95% of the West Bank, including land transfers from Israel and it was perfectly contiguous. Anybody who wants to look at the map can do a Google search over Dennis Ross and Taba. I'm not going to bother to post the link for the umpteenth time.

Re Ann

How about compesentation for the Jews who were expelled from Arab countries such as Iraq? I guess to the Anns of the world, they don't count.

Re Jennifer

"Brett Bellmore, always a nasty idiot."

To the Jennifers of the world, anybody who is knowledgeable about the subject matter is an idiot. Its Ms. Jennifer who is the idiot.

Re Howard

Is this the same Edward Luttwak who claimed that Saudi Arabia could produce 18 million barrels of oil a day?

Re Gregorio

Sorry about the misspelling of Mr. Gregorios' name.

Re SLC on Mearsheimer...I met the man once, at a wedding for one of Werner Dannhauser's daughters. Jewish wedding, lots of stuff going on not found amongst goys, and lots of long standing friendships about. Mearsheimer in the midst of it all. And all at the UofC, naturally.

Now I know having Jewish friends doesn't mean someone can't also be an anti-semite.

But being a philo-semite, in the sense of holding opinions close to those of Jabotinsky et al, does not mean one can't also be a racist. It may just mean that one is a racist.

So as with all propositions, the point is to examine them rather than calling people names.

Re jerry

Excuse me, I don't recall that I accused Prof. Mearsheimer of being an antisemite. I accused him of being an Israel bashing ignoramus about the Middle East.

SLC, the problem is you as well. Completely crazy and meaner than any snake. Every other sentence is a vile smear.

SLC, you can't write without calling someone an anti-semite. Goyim what?????

Dennis Ross's book, of course, conspicuously ends before Taba. You'd think that kind of intellectual dishonesty would prompt people to stop citing him as a source.

Look, the idea that the settlement proposed at Camp David included a viable, contiguous state for Palestine is routinely denied even by virulently pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian advocates. For just one example, Alan Dershowitz freely admitted at his debate with Noam Chomsky at Harvard in November of 2005 that Israel is not proposing a contiguous state for Palestine. The idea that the proposal at Camp David was this benevolent gift to the Palestinians, which they rejected because they're so mendacious and stupid, will eventually be abandoned like other canards such as "Palestine was unoccupied before the Israeli settlers!" and "the refugees left of their own free will!".

But, look. Rather than once again getting bogged down by debating what happened at Camp David, let's move forward. Say you're right, and the Israelis offered a viable, contiguous state. And say Mearsheimer is incorrect, and the Israeli's will give the Palestinians real self-determination and control of their own borders, their own airspace, their own water. Then I've got no complaints. As long as we're talking about a truly contiguous state (and I'm talking about a Gaza to West Bank corridor as well as intra-territory contiguity), with true self-sovereignty and control of their own political institutions and resources, I'm satisfied with that plan. So what's the problem?

The problem is that it's not on the table, and it never has been.

Didn't take you long to whip out the 'racist' card, did it?

How can you aggregate 'the Palestinians' together for purposes of demanding that 'they' get a state, and rule out aggregating them together for purposes of noticing how 'they' behave? You think noticing groups turns on and off as you find convenient?

Most people understand that, if the Palestinians get a state, it's going to be controlled by a band of murderous thugs, with the only real question being which band of murderous thugs will be in control at any given moment. This, not Israeli intransigence, is the real obstacle to Palestinian statehood.

Here, let's play a little game. Let's pretend for fun that there's no Israel, and someone proposes we create one. Now let's imagine I said the following:

"Most people understand that, if the Jews get a state, it's going to be controlled by a band of murderous thugs, with the only real question being which band of murderous thugs will be in control at any given moment."

What do you suppose would be said about me? How do you think that would go over? I'm guessing not very well.

Re Freddie

1. As usual, Mr. Freddie obfuscates the subject. It is my understanding that the map I referred to does not appear in Mr. Rosses' book but can be found on the web using the search items I suggested. I have posted a link to the map on at least two occasions on this blog.

2. A corridor such as Mr. Freddie proposed was a part of the Taba proposed agreement. Mr. Freddie, while blathering around about the parameters of the proposed Palestinian state fails to mention the item which killed the proposal as far as the Palestinians were concerned. That item was the demand by the Palestinian negotiators that all Palestinians currently residing in refugee camps be allowed to resettle in what is now Israel. At no time have the Palestinians taken this demand off the table. Until they do, there is no proposal which can be proffered by Israel, the US, or the EU which will fly as the Government of Israel will never accede to such a demand. Mr. Freddie may not like it but that's the way it stands. And if Mr. Freddie wants to argue that the Palestinian demand is reasonable and proper, he should address himself to the issue of the Jews kicked out of Arab countries like Iraq as a result of the 1948 war. That little tidbit is always left out of discussions by Palestinian apologists.

Re Jennifer

"SLC, the problem is you as well. Completely crazy and meaner than any snake. Every other sentence is a vile smear."

Well I guess Don Williams and I have at least one thing in common, Ms. Jennifer doesn't like either one of us.

I suppose it wouldn't go over very well because it's not, at least today, nearly as true.

And if Mr. Freddie wants to argue that the Palestinian demand is reasonable and proper, he should address himself to the issue of the Jews kicked out of Arab countries like Iraq as a result of the 1948 war.

Yeah, you're right. A Palestinian 12 year old really should be made to pay for the actions of the Jordanian government in 1948.

I suppose it wouldn't go over very well because it's not, at least today, nearly as true.

So in simple terms you're saying that Jews are superior to Palestinians, right? Don't mince words. Say what you mean.

In simple terms, I'm saying that Israeli political culture isn't nearly as violent as the political culture found in the Palestinian territories. I have no opinion about who would be superior to who, if you could somehow set aside all the cultural baggage.

"Most people understand that, if the Palestinians get a state, it's going to be controlled by a band of murderous thugs, with the only real question being which band of murderous thugs will be in control at any given moment."

Yeah, always rotten and always crazy. Always spewing hatred.

Re Minipundit

The fact that Prof. Mearsheimer has been anointed as a smart fellow by some of his peers doesn't mean that he knows his ass from a hole in the ground relative to the subject of the Middle East, anymore then Prof Brian Josephsons' Nobel prize in physics means that the latter is an expert on such topics as cold fusion, ESP, and PK. Or for that matter that Linus Paulings' Nobel prize in chemistry means that he was an expert on the curative powers of vitamin C.

"Yeah, always rotten and always crazy. Always spewing hatred."

Excuse me, but have you been paying any attention to what Palestinians have been doing to each other recently? Followed what passes for politics in the PA at all? Or is all of that simply irrelevant in your view?

I suppose it wouldn't go over very well because it's not, at least today, nearly as true.

Right! Of course, it would be true if Palestinians or Lebanese were human beings. But of course they're not, so Israeli leaders are free to kill as many as they wish without qualifying as murderous thugs.

"Excuse me, but have you been paying any attention to what Palestinians have been doing to each other recently? Followed what passes for politics in the PA at all? Or is all of that simply irrelevant in your view?"

Insane viciousness, because that is all rhat you are capable of reciting. Let's have more of the same insane viciousness, now.

Re Jennifer

Apparently, all Ms. Jennifer can do is trash Mr. Bellmore without in any way, shape, form or regard responding to his comment. How about posting a substantive comment refuting Mr. Bellmores' claim.

"Excuse me, but have you been paying any attention to what Palestinians have been doing to each other recently? Followed what passes for politics in the PA at all? Or is all of that simply irrelevant in your view?"

Yeah; the insanely vicious never recognize the insanely vicious. Imagine my suprise, SLC. Hard to know who is more insane and more vicious. Likely a tie with Brett.

SLC, you wallow in hatred and are too stupid and mean to understand.

A corridor such as Mr. Freddie proposed was a part of the Taba proposed agreement.

Yeah, and Barak freaked out and ended negotiations. Of course, Mofaz had hinted that a coup d'etat might be in the offing before this.


In fairness, the Palestinian team probably was dragging it's feet. It was dubious that the Barak government was in a position to actually offer anything, and Bush was incoming and there was a perception that he would have his Father's worldview which was more sympathetic to Arabs than Clinton's. Either way, it was Barak that formally walked away from Taba.

have never been interested in seeing the creation of a viable Palestinian state and he includes Yitzhak Rabin

Rabin proposed what he called a "state minus
".

Fred ses: 4) Gregorio, the zeal with which you and other Dems resort to gay-baiting helps explain to me how gay marriage amendments were so resoundingly defeated at the ballot box, even in putatively liberal states like Portland. I guess there are more gay-haters on the Left than lefties like to admit publicly, but this sentiment is more freely expressed in the anonymity of the voting booth or a blog comment thread.

Fred, I am as much of a Democrat as David Vitter is a non-diaper-wearing, non-hooker-hiring monogamous family man and Bob Allen is a well-adjusted, healthy, happy, mature, out gay man. All this blatant Democrat-baiting is the reason why you don't even realize you just called Portland a state, you fucking drooling, moronic GOP attack wiener. Don't try to tell me I have internet cojones, cuz I will jump thru this series of tubes right through my firewire port and scurry about like a greased Groundskeeper Willy till I find your ugly face staring at the monitor and leap out of your clunky Dell and clout you on your pasty white noggin.

In short, BOOYAKASHAH!

Not to take away from this discussion, could we at least agree on the fact that Mearsheimer is almost as unfair as grader as Robert Pape O:)

My interaction with Prof. Mearsheimer has been purely academic, and he's always conducted himself in a professional manner. At the same time, I think you all should realize this about my school.

U of C has one of the most right-wing, pro-Israel, and dare I say it, Neo-con faculties in the country. Furthermore, due to Rockefeller's emphasis on equality, the U of C has always possessed a strong connection to the US Jewish population. If you look at our greatest lights, many, if not most, of them are Jewish, including Hanna H. Gray, Milt Friedman, Gary Becker, Bob Fogel, Leo Strauss, Allan Bloom, and so on.

Nevertheless, after the uproar stemming from the Walt-Mearsheimer paper, UChicago supported Mearsheimer, despite our history of pro-Zionism.

Therefore, condemning him as a nut fails to take into account the fact that my school usually castigates those who deviate from pro-Israeli viewpoints. I admit that I retain my respect for him despite being a proud Zionist. So before you condemn him as an anti-semite or racist, please recall the fact that he is highly regarded at a place not known for pro-Palestinian thought.

The United States could use some cold calculating offensive realism.

Mearhsheimer for undersecretary of Defense in '08...General Clark for Sec. of Defense.

Regarding Brett Bellmore's comments on the superiority of Israeli political culture, over that of the Palestinians:

So, this suggests that having been driven from their homeland into refugee status, followed by nearly 60 years of Israel and the US playing "keep away" with the bits of what they once owned, might all of this have had some negative impact on political life in the "occupied territories"? Isn't this just a little like the stories of German concentration camp guards who once laughed it up at the "depravity" of the Jews, based on the spectacle of starving Jews fighting each other over handfuls of food, which the same guards had just thrown in among them? Germans would never squabble over crumbs like that...

Or, regarding rule by murderous thugs, and the suggestion that this is characteristic of the Palestians: Could this also not be said of the Israelis for once having Begin as their leader? The same Begin who was wanted by the British as a major criminal for his part in the terrorist murders perpetrated in blowing up the King David Hotel?

I'm not entirely persuaded that Israeli political culture was, long ago, as bad as Palestinian political culture is today, but one thing I'm quite certain of: I wouldn't want to make an argument that depended on the Palestinians winning a pissing contest with Jews over who has suffered worse oppression.

There are some very unpleasant things going on in this thread. But I'll respond anyway.

First, Beowolf, did you google my name? I have written two books on the Mexican Revolution. One of them asks the question why, if the Revolution was so bad, Mexico's economy just kept ticking along. I'll leave the implication for you.

I'm a bit annoyed here, in fact. I got "owned," Beowolf? On the precise topic about which I'm an expert? Christ almighty. You can email me if you really care about the topic, or read my book with Haber and Razo. You know, the one with sources and evidence.

Second, Steve is, in fact, implying that it could happen again. It can't, and using Mexico's instability in 1910-29 to claim that the country's politics doesn't receive enough attention in 2007 is ridiculous. It's exactly as silly as claiming that we don't pay enough attention to Germany because of the events of 1933-45. It could all happen again, you see!

Third, I've spent a significant chunk of my life living in Mexico, I've been to Oaxaca, and as I said, my career would only benefit if Americans paid more attention to the country. So I'll repeat: the Oaxaca story is unimportant in Mexico City, let alone Boston. It's exciting. It's annoying. It's problematic. But it's not particularly important to anyone who doesn't live there.

Unless you believe that the country is about to collapse in chaos. You know, the way Russia is on the verge of repeating its revolution, or the way you're all terrified that the United States is about to refight the Civil War.

Gah.

Enough, already. I won't make the mistake of posting here again. Rarely have I seen such a huge gap between the quality of the blog and the quality of the comment threads.


Comments closed August 17, 2007.