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Math Fails to Debunk Gender Stereotypes

13 Aug 2007 04:24 pm

Belle Waring hails The New York Times' patient explanation that it's mathematically impossible for men and women to have different numbers of sex partners. Ezra Klein, too, lauds the story for debunking gender stereotypes whereby "Men are relatively promiscuous, women relatively chaste."

Here's the only problem. When I got my Patriarchal Master Narrative card, I was taught that while men are promiscuous, women come in two types -- virgins and whores. This is perfectly consistent with the basic math saying men and women have to have the same mean number of sex partners. The story just as to be that men have a higher median number of sex partners than do women, and it's a handful of sluts who are making up the difference. Is that accurate? Perhaps not. But these stereotypes are a bit more robust than a simple mathematical screw-up.

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Comments (79)

As someone who has spent considerable time pointing out the "same number of sex partners" factoid and feeling smug about it, I've noted that there's a few ways it could be wrong:

1. One gender could be more likely to have had sex partners who are now deceased, giving that gender a higher mean.

2. One gender might be more likely to be gay, meaning the means will come out different if we only count straight people in our denominator.

3. The equality certainly does not hold within a given sample population (like, say, the U.S.), since one gender might be more likely to have partners outside that group. For example, my guess is that women have a higher average than men in Thailand, where the sex tourism industry is huge, and men have a higher average in Japan, because many businessmen go on foreign sex tour on the company tab.

Good point. We also have to assume that the survey was limited to heterosexual sex, because as I recall, the possibility that men might be having more sex with each other was not even raised.

Exactly what I thought when I read about the study. There can be one lady who skews the whole survey. I find it more likely that they both lie to attempt to conform to gender stereotypes.

There can be one lady who skews the whole survey.

... not if she was counted in the survey, no. If we are dealing with a mean here, then where the numbers are distributed are immaterial; they all get added to the same pool. She can only change things if she is not added in the survey-- if many men who took the survey had sex with her, but she did not take the survey-- or if we're talking a median, as MY suggests. But my question is, wouldn't one women, no matter how promiscuous, only skew the data one person up?

I saw a study like this once for college students that used mean instead of median. A friend and I worked out that the issue was the higher % of women in college, which, given the bias towards liberal arts institutions in the sample, was like 60/40 and explained entirely the 1.5:1 male to female ratio found.

But, yeah, your point about median numbers pretty much debunks the entire article. I think that is more about the journalist not understanding the difference between median and mean than the mathematician being confused, though. :-)

There can be one lady who skews the whole survey.

... not if she was counted in the survey, no.

Ahhh, the controversial "hidden slut" theorem rears its head.

The story just as to be that men have a higher median number of sex partners than do women, and it's a handful of sluts who are making up the difference.

Except. . .

Dr. Gale is still troubled. He said invoking women who are outside the survey population cannot begin to explain a difference of 75 percent in the number of partners, as occurred in the study saying men had seven partners and women four. Something like a prostitute effect, he said, “would be negligible.” The most likely explanation, by far, is that the numbers cannot be trusted.

Dr. Gale is troubled because the 7 and 4 numbers were probably presented to him as means instead of medians - he is talking about people outside of the sample, not in it.

If you had 100 men, 100 women, and all the men had had sex with 7 women, while 60 of the women had had sex with 4 men and then 20 others with 11 and the rest with 12, you would get a median of 7 for men and 4 for women with 700 total couplings on each side.

The "mathematical impossibility" gag is ridiculous. Of course it's possible and easily imagined. Hence the "myth". Whether actual behavior fits the myth or not is outside the realm of math.

The article, as written, is ridiculous. The author refers to median numbers, but the disparity between men and women is only mathematically impossible if we're discussing the mean number of sex partners. I'd at least hope that the math professors knew what they were talking about and the flaws in the article are the result of the journalist's ignorance.

While I suspect that the "girlfriend in Canada" factor is in play here, as Belle suggests, it's entirely possible, even probable, that the median number of sex partners is higher for men than women. For starters, I'm not aware of there being much of a market for straight male prostitutes. It also seems to me, anecdotally speaking, that there are almost certainly more men than women who have never had any sex partners at all. A socially awkward woman who decides to lose her virginity to the first available man will almost certainly have better luck than a man who attempts the feat in reverse. (This is the "men have lower standards than women" stereotype, I guess, but some stereotypes are grounded firmly in truth and this is probably one of them.)

Therefore, assuming that the female population has a larger pool of high-achieving outliers, and the male population has a larger pool of low-achieving outliers, given that the mathematical mean must be the same for both groups, then men will have higher numbers in the middle of the curve to make up the difference, and therefore the median male will have a larger number of sex partners than the median female.

If promiscuous women die younger than promiscuous men, and thus become unable to answer surveys about their promiscuity, then it's perfectly reasonable for the mean sexual partners of each gender to diverge.

Biologically I understand that it makes sense that promiscuous women die younger than promiscuous men. No man has ever died of HPV-induced cervical cancer and M-to-F transmission of HIV is much more likely than F-to-M.

Of course, the main difference between the reported numbers comes from misreporting. Women might be more shy about reporting their number of sex partners, or men might brag and lie, or men might tend to count only oral sex as constituting sex more than women do (Bill Clinton excepted), etc.

As for the variance in sexual partner numbers, the genetic data seem to indicate that women have a much lower variance in terms of reproductive success than men - i.e. there's lots more childless men than childless women out there. Or, as the Economist said, "it appears some men have been putting it about quite a lot." Which means that plenty of other men must be at least relatively celibate.

This is perfectly consistent with the basic math saying men and women have to have the same mean number of sex partners. The story just as to be that men have a higher median number of sex partners than do women, and it's a handful of sluts who are making up the difference.

This was my ultimate conclusion as well. It would be nice to be able to say, "See, men and women aren't all that different," but without seeing the data -- Do a large number of low-partner women cancel out a smaller portion of higher-partnered ones? If yes, then it confirm's that -- Matt's conclusion is simply where reasoning must take you.

Hmm. That seems an awkwardly constructed sentence. Bummer.

If you think back anecdotally, weren't there always "those girls," the ones that everyone knew were "easy?" The "town harlot" exists for a reason. I'd be really interested to see the STD transmission rates among men and the "high-value" women, personally. Seems to me there'd be a strong correllation.

It IS mathematically impossible for a sample with an equal number of men and women to have a different mean number of opposite-sex partners from within that group. It's just that when you factor in different unequal numbers, medians instead of means, homosexual partners, and partners outside of your sample, that things start to break down.

The average American has one testicle (within margin of error).

The math that everyone is doing here neglects the fact that societies are not always split evenly between male and female. The US has slightly more females than males (52-48?) due to a slight birth ratio imbalance and the fact that women live longer. China has more men than women due to the desire to have male children and comply with the one child policy. Thailand is interesting in that it has an excess of women in the child-bearing age, but is normal elsewhere. This is due to a high mortality rate among adolescent males, which is due mainly to motorcycle accidents and work related deaths. The ratio realigns itself in older age groups because so many Thai women marry foreigners and move away.

Mr. Noah, how could you hint that men might claim to have more sex partners than they've really had while women might claim to have fewer sex partners than they have really had.

No, no. That could _never_ happen. Ever, ever, ever, in a million years!

This might be my only chance ever to use this and actually be on point:

Higgamus, hoggamus
Men are monogamous
Hoggamus, higgamus
Women, polygamous.

I know it runs against stereotype, but that's the way I learned it.

The article was badly written, in that less than one sentence is given to the mathmetician's dismissal of the "prostitute effect". A much better title would be "Mathematically Improbable" which can often mean the same as impossible in statistics.

You're right, Matt. The study the article cited focused on the median while the article itself focused on the mean.
Here's how you'd get a difference in medians, using the prom example. Suppose there were 100 males and 100 females at prom. Five females danced with every man except one (probably me). The rest danced only with their dates. For men the median number of partners is six. For women, one. For both sexes, the mean is 5.9 (if I did the math right).
A statistician would tell you the male distribution is skewed left, while the female distribution is skewed right.
Scary that a Times science writer would confuse the two.
I think the reporter is correct that some of the inaccuracy can be traced to self-reporting bias, but unless the bar scene has changed a lot since I married, there is almost certainly a gap in the true median, though not as large as the gap created by self-reporting.

Suppose at a junior-high dance there are three boys, three girls, and three dances. One boy, Able, dances with each girl once. Baker and Charlie, wallflowers, don't dance at all, so two girls also must sit out every dance. (This is fairly close to my memory of 8th grade.) The mean number of dances for each boy and for each girl is 1, but the two boys and all three girls might find small solace in those figures.

Something like a prostitute effect, he said, “would be negligible.”

What percentage of women are prostitutes? Probably not very high, but if:
(a) an average prostitute has had sex with many times more men than the average woman,
(b) prostitutes lie when surveyed
(c) the number of prostitutes is not vanishingly small

... then prostitutes could certainly skew the findings.

For example, if prostitutes are 1% of the female population surveyed, and every prostitute surveyed has had sex with exactly 100 men, but says she is a virgin, then you'd see an inexplicable delta of 1 more sex partner for men than women.

I think probably most of the effect is women and men not recalling one-night stands equally, and/or having different interpretations of what a "sexual partner" is. This is the kind of thing where you really want to know exactly what the survey format was.

Yes, yes, knowing the mean and median is interesting, but how about the mode?

w00t for the numerically literate.

For example, if prostitutes are 1% of the female population surveyed,

Holy shit.

jenny

While Matt is right to point out the central problem with the article: the discussion is mainly about medians, but the "theorem" proven is about means, it should be recognized that it is possible to have male and female population groups with different mean numbers of sexual partners if the populations are of different size. Suppose X, Y and Z are male; and suppose A, B, C, D and E are females. Suppose X, Y and Z have all had sex with A and B. In addition, X has had sex with C; Y has had sex with D; and Z has had sex with E. Then the average number of distinct sex partners for the males is (3+3+3)/3 = 3. The average number of sex partners for the females is (3 + 3 + 1 + 1 + 1)/5 = 1.8

Fact is there is no word for a male that cooresponds to whore.

How many men have sex with prostitutes? Gotta be really low, right?

Also, can someone who is (unlike me) not an idiot at math please tell me if I'm correct that one outlier can only move a median up one number? Like....

if me (net worth -$15,000), my buddies Matt(net worth $30,000), Ernest(net worth $35,000), Hepzabah (net worth $40,000) and Osirus (net worth $45,000) are in a bar, the median net worth is $35,000, while the mean is $27,000. (Right?) But if Bill Gates (net worth $50,000,000,000) walks in, the mean goes to like 8 billion and change, while the median just goes up one number to $40,000. So how could the slut factor increase by looking at the mean? Even if there are a small number of women who are extremely promiscuous, shouldn't they number rise only slightly, when we're dealing with the mean?

*meant to say how can the slut factor increase by looking at the median, obviously. Apparently my idiocy extends to language too.

An awful lot of people struggling awfully hard to avoid the obvious:

People lie on sex surveys.

Does anyone know the true story on marriage statistics? I heard that the "half of all marriages end if divorce" statistic was misleading for similar reasons - people confuse it for "your marriage has a 50% change of failure" when in reality it is a smaller group of serial wed-ers who are skewing the statistics for the rest of us...

Does anyone know the true story on marriage statistics? I heard that the "half of all marriages end if divorce" statistic was misleading for similar reasons - people confuse it for "your marriage has a 50% change of failure" when in reality it is a smaller group of serial wed-ers who are skewing the statistics for the rest of us...

Right. Also, remember that the nature of marriage makes that reading unsupportable also. Many people marry young and divorce within five years. The majority of them, however, will marry again, and these second marriages are likely to last until death. For these people, the divorce rate is 50%, but that hardly constitutes a failure of marriage.

Biologically I understand that it makes sense that promiscuous women die younger than promiscuous men. No man has ever died of HPV-induced cervical cancer and M-to-F transmission of HIV is much more likely than F-to-M.

Given that we seem to have redefined "biologically" to mean "Based on no examination of any evidence whatsoever":

Biologically it makes sense that men with many sex partners will die younger. Young men who are prone to risky behavior, like sex with lots of partners in the age of HIV, are probably more likely to be murdered or die in accidents, which biologically kill many more young men than young women.

"The story just as to be that men have a higher median number of sex partners than do women, and it's a handful of sluts who are making up the difference. Is that accurate? Perhaps not."

The Denver Broncos - Eric Cartman's Mom Theory of Sex and Gender, eh?

I don't get this mathematical proof.

Suppose that there is only one man on an island which has a hundred women.

The man clearly has a hundred sex partners and each woman has only one. I, of course, make the assumption that he is not a Republican.

Though I find your hypothetical island idea appealing, there is no doubt in my mind that at least half those women would lez out entirely and he would be lucky to bed 50 of 'em, let alone 100.

Of course your supposition is accurate. Haven't you ever watched Maury Povich?

The result is that the ratio of men's average to women's average equals the ratio of women to men in the population. The numbers of men and women in our population are close to even, which means the averages should be close to equal.

Couldn't men come in more than one type as well? We all know someone who can't get laid to save his life, and another guy who seems to constantly be screwing yet another random chick. Does this study take into account those outliers?

I'm no outlier; i like to do it standing up.

PS: I'm trying to kill this stupid thread with a bad pun. If that don't work, I'm posting n00dz of MC ROVE- N THA FRESH FLESH! featuring Jeff Gannon.

"Men are relatively promiscuous, women relatively chaste."

The operative word here is "relatively".

The study of human evolution indicates that males are selected to spread their genes. Females are selected to pick males most able to spread their genes - and to keep other males on the side in case their pick happens to actually be impotent.

So neither sex is "chaste" in any significant way - because evolution almost by definition does not select for "non-breeding."

This is why females have a longer orgasmic curve than males - they're intended to be gang-banged. This ensures that even if the alpha male who got to them first is impotent, they still reproduce by means of the second-stringers.

I'm amazed that people are still talking about cultural norms and cultural stereotypes as if they were laws of nature. However, such norms and stereotypes conceivably COULD skew evolutionary selection by removing certain classes of behavior that would otherwise be normal.

I suspect, however, that over the entire run of the species, such skews would be rare and/or weeded out over the long run - because cultures have an evolutionary pattern as well and don't last forever. They also tend to follow the "bell curve" and be as varied as human behavior is. Only in the last and current century, due to advanced communication technology, is that likely to be different from the rest of human history.


This is why females have a longer orgasmic curve than males - they're intended to be gang-banged.

Sociobiology in a nutshell.


What about my theory that progressives get laid FAR more than wingnuts, and one of the main psychological explanation for incoherent right wing rage is sexual frustration?

Surely it can't be that hard to see. Why hasn't anyone written a book on sexual frustration as the driving force behind republican policy of the last fifty years?

It would also explain all the republican sex scandals.

Who cares about median vs. mean # of sexual partners? Face facts, your girlfriend cheats on you, which makes sense because you sit around blogging all day instead of working out and learning how to give really good cunnilingus.

RSH: "This is why females have a longer orgasmic curve than males - they're intended to be gang-banged."

You're explaining women's typically "longer orgasmic curve" than men as due to the fact that they're intended to be raped (a woman's consent to having sex with anyone is only a recent belief) by multiple men? Um, no. Us females aren't "intended to be gang-banged". According to commonly held scientific theories, I could see how historically a woman might find a "better" man to screw around with if the one she had is not reliable in whatever way, but a "gang-bang" situation as you so elegantly described I do not. It would not be "wise", obviously, to screw a guy other than the one she is involved with, at the same time. She would most likely screw around behind the guy's back because according to blah-blah theory that would be the most advantageous to her and her progeny. That was the probably the norm of a if a woman screwed around with another man.

And aren't there far better and more sound theories already out there about women's orgasm difference compared to men? Really, gang-bang? That's the best you can do?

True Fact: when I learned to properly perform cunnilingus, women started liking me a lot more. All it took was one woman telling me exactly what to do. Men: listen! Stop blogging and pay attention to the clitoris! The only thing better than satisfying a woman sexually is provoking a quote-war with HeiGou, and he's AWOL now, so...

It's almost worth the eventual throat cancer...

Richard "Dick" Stephen Hack— the most accurately named blog commenter in America.

I love thees country!

Don't forget Tiresias and the testimony that got him blinded!

Honestly, I despair for the country. The reason for the different numbers? No woman with the brains of a slow-witted rodent will ever admit to more than four sex partners, and no man will ever admit to fewer than eight. I cannot imagine a population of people that would tell the truth about their sex lives, ergo no study on Earth, Kinsey's included, is remotely accurate on the subject. Please let's go rag on Karl Rove now.

There's a huge number of ways that men and women could have different MEDIAN numbers of sexual partners.

Population of 11 women, 11 men.
Men: 0,0,0,0,0,7,9,11,11,11,11
Women: 4,4,4,4,4,4,7,7,7,7,8

60 sexual contacts total. Median for men is 7, median for women is 4.

There you go. That wasn't freaking hard.

There are other ways to do it, but this accords with my intuition, which suggests that women are more often gatekeepers to sex, and that there is a sizable population of men in the "undatable" category who have very few sexual contacts, and a sizable population of men who have a great many sexual contacts. My example data is more stark than reality would ever possibly be, but the principle still works.

And for the record, the "hidden prostitute" theory doesn't do much to the median of the women's data, and has only a small effect on the median of the men's data. Medians aren't unaffected by the extremity of outliers, only by the number of outliers total.

Freddie wrote, "But my question is, wouldn't one women, no matter how promiscuous, only skew the data one person up?"

Yes. That is precisely how a median works.

I think it's fair to say that people lie about sex. Some of those men only slept with half as mahy people as they claimed, and some women slept with twice the number they claimed.

This isn't fucking rocket science, people lie about this shit from the age of 12 on.

There's a huge number of ways that men and women could have different MEDIAN numbers of sexual partners.

Yes, but these surveys also report wildly different MEANS, and there's no way that can happen, so the data are wrong and the surveys provide no support for the gatekeeper intuition. See Tracy Clark-Flores.

Cited in the NYT article

Drug Use and Sexual Behaviors Reported by Adults: United States, 1999-2002

Available here:
http://www.psc.isr.umich.edu/dis/infoserv/catalog/detail.html?id=144417


From there:

Twenty-nine percent of men reported having 15 or more female sexual partners in a lifetime compared with 9% of women who reported having 15 or more male sexual partners in a lifetime.

Also from there:
Age-adjusted percentage of males by number of female sexual partners in lifetime

0-1 16.6%
2-6 33.8%
7-14 20.7%
>15 28.9%

The same for women

0-1 25.0%
2-6 44.3%
7-14 21.3%
>15 9.4%


The problem as pointed out with this data is akin to "56% of the votes cast went to Republicans and 70% to Democrats".

MY and others here argue that the shapes of the curves are correct, (trust the median) but not the average. Problem is that those who argue thusly need to show that correcting for the average to be equal (which requires lowering male claims or increasing female claims of number of partners) does not push the medians too far.


The average human male is 15% heavier than the average human female.

The average gorilla male is twice as heavy as the average gorilla female.

Those who research primate evolution say that primates with a tendency to monogamy have male/female body sizes pretty close, while those that are not have body sizes also different.

So whatever your "sociobiologist" commentators say, humans evolved with a tendency to monogamy.

There can be one lady who skews the whole survey.

I think you meant to say, "There can be one lady who screws the whole survey."

The median for # of female partners reported by men in the above cited study is 6.8.

In the various bins, the median is as follows

Age
20-29 years 5.4
30-39 years 7.6
40-49 years 6.9
50-59 years 6.9

Race and ethnicity
Mexican American 4.7
Non-Hispanic white 6.2
Non-Hispanic black 12.5

Education
Less than high school 8.1
High school diploma or GED 7.3
More than high school 6.0

Poverty
Below poverty level 6.3
1 to less than 2 times poverty level 7.4
2 or more times poverty level 6.7

Marital status
Married 5.1
Widowed, divorced or separated 11.5
Never married 7.4
Cohabitating 9.7

For those of you fretting about the median, vs mean (vs mode?), there's a little article in Slate (by a math professor no less) that tsks tsks over the lack of journalistic and mathematical rigor, but at the end says the author still came to the correct conclusion--that the results obtained are unlikely to be "true".

Occam's razor in this case would indicate that the reporting (especially if it's self-reporting) isn't terribly accurate and that men err to the higher side while women err to the lower side. It would be interesting, though, to see if there would be a way to study 1) whether these sorts of errors in reporting were happening 2) if the errors were done equally or if men or women were generally more "accurate". I think a survey like this would also get better results if you were very clear and specific in defining what a "sexual partner" is and what you have done with that person to make them constitute a "sexual partner". At that point, I think you'd see the numbers converge more. But would they be closer to 4 or closer to 7?

Right on!

The other issue is, men might tend to want more sex, where women might tend to fight it off, as the stereotype also holds. Therefore, while every sex act requires both a man and a woman, it's fair to say that men are more promiscuous in desire/morality even if they don't get to act on it.

It would be nice if we could see the actual distributions for number of partners for men and women. That would make all of this a lot clearer.

Arun:

How do you have any idea what the average is? It's not given anywhere in the report. It's completely feasible to me that the average of those two distributions is the same, and yet the median is wildly different.

I tend to think that the author of the NYtimes piece just mixed up median and mean.

Good to know all this analysis depends on a mathematics professor emeritus mistaking medians and means.

figleaf

Mathematics aside, why must we revert to a hidden "slut" theory? Men are promiscuous, but women are virgins or sluts?

Note that the analysis does not depend on the professor making the error, only the author. It is entirely possible that the professor was miscommunicated to.

I am as confused as anyone and I long for an explanation as to how this article could be so very wrong.

Wilson asks : "How do you have any idea what the average is?"

My answer - I can't tell you the average, but I can tell you that the average must be greater than 6.46.

Here is how:

Age-adjusted percentage of males by number of female sexual partners in lifetime

0-1 16.6%
2-6 33.8%
7-14 20.7%
>15 28.9%

We take the lower value on each range to get the minimum value of the average.

So the average must be greater than
(0 x 16.6 + 2 x 33.8 + 7 * 20.7 + 15 * 28.9)/100

= 6.46

Notice that the lower bound on the average (6.46) is close to the median (6.8). My guess is that this distribution has its average greater than its median.

We cannot estimate an upper value on the average unless we can bound the >15 partners bucket.

Just for example, if the >15 partners is effectively 15-25, then the average must be less than

(1 x 16.6 + 6 x 33.8 + 14 x 20.7 + 25 * 28.9)/100

= 12.32.

The same exercise for the women -
median (given) = 3.7
lower bound on average = 3.79
assuming >15 effectively means (15-25), upper bound on average = 8.24

___

I'm sure the paper reports the median and not the average because of the logical problem with the data. The question is - how reliable is the median when the data is logically inconsistent?

Notice this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19374216/
reporting on the 1999-2002 report.
"Average man sleeps with 7 women" is the HTML page title headline.

I don't have the reference here, but somebody has actually done a study that explains the numerical discrepancy. The basic reason is that both men and women start to lose count after they have about 10 sex partners (i.e., they give "round" numbers divisible by 5 or 10). When men and women with 10 or more sex partners were then interviewed to determine how they arrived at that figure, the researchers discovered an interesting phenomenon: the men rounded up, while the women rounded down. Basically, the discrepancy is due to gender differences related to rounding error.

Where did you say these sluts are?

"I am as confused as anyone and I long for an explanation as to how this article could be so very wrong."

Try these simple steps:

1) Go read the actual article (Matt has a link, above)
2) Find the paragraph that starts "Surveys bear this out" (note the plural "survey*s*")
3) Strike the next paragraph which begins "One survey, recently reported..."
4) Read the next paragraph that begins "But there is just one problem..."

Astonishingly if you strike that middle paragraph the point of the article stands unaltered and... all median/mean critiques fall on their asses. Or, more likely, people would fall on some other minor flaw and insist *that* invalidated the whole story.

Now... why so many men are investing so much energy in defending a status quo that leaves them feeling sexually frustrated and women feeling beleaguered is beyond me.

But *seriously guys!* (It really is mostly guys, isn't it?) The only way the article is wrong is if the math professor the article is about is, the reporter herself, all the other mathematicians and social scientists she interviewed, her editors, and her fact checkers made the same mistake *and* the reporter deliberately

What did you say about oral sex? Cos I won't turn down a rabid badger in that department, but when it comes to slappin' skins, I'm as choosy as a Mom buying peanut butter. "Sex" is a very grey term, does one or both partner need to achieve orgasm? Obviously not? Just penetration? How long? This data is worthless until I have more answers!

"Those who research primate evolution say that primates with a tendency to monogamy have male/female body sizes pretty close, while those that are not have body sizes also different."

And somehow they have a cause-effect relationship between monogamy and bode size?

I don't think so. Statistical correlations do not necessarily mean cause and effect.

Monogamy (especially long term monogamy - as if "until death do you part" - lots of luck with that one) has not been established as the norm in human evolution outside of culturally induced norms during recorded human history, as far as I know. And those culturally induced norms are unrelated to body size.

Not to mention that MOST cultures in human history have allowed males to have more than one wife and/or sexual relationships outside of marriage. This would to seem to argue against body size being related to monogamy, not to mention against monogamy itself.

To the lady who complained about the "gang bang theory", allow me to point out that this situation is common in "herd" mammals - which includes primates.

I wasn't suggesting that it was some sort of preference - it's merely the effect of mammalian evolution.

Sorry, but as far as anybody can tell, that happens to be why it takes women longer to reach orgasm than men.

Get off it, Richard. As far as gang-bang/delayed-orgasm theory" goes, your theory (I'm not aware of anyone else who subscribes to it) would be a lot sounder if it really took women any longer to have orgasms than it does men. I'm betting the confusion lies in an assumption that orgasms have to come from intercourse.

figleaf

Sorry, but as far as anybody can tell, that happens to be why it takes women longer to reach orgasm than men.

No, it takes women longer to reach orgasm because they're bad at math.

And somehow they have a cause-effect relationship between monogamy and bode size?

I don't think so. Statistical correlations do not necessarily mean cause and effect.

Competition in non-monogamy situations favors larger male size. That argument is on a firmer basis than any of the "sociobiology" stuff peddled around here.

Monogamy (especially long term monogamy - as if "until death do you part" - lots of luck with that one) has not been established as the norm in human evolution outside of culturally induced norms during recorded human history, as far as I know.

What part of "tendency to monogamy" do you not understand? It doesn't mean absolute fidelity.

Recorded human history is mostly **irrelevant** for human evolution. Recorded human history is 5000 years max. Humans have existed for 40 times as long.

And those culturally induced norms are unrelated to body size.

Not to mention that MOST cultures in human history have allowed males to have more than one wife and/or sexual relationships outside of marriage. This would to seem to argue against body size being related to monogamy, not to mention against monogamy itself.

See above.

Sorry, but as far as anybody can tell, that happens to be why it takes women longer to reach orgasm than men.

Would anybody be the imaginary elves living in your underwear drawer?


Comments closed August 27, 2007.

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