According to Mike Crowley, the Anti-Defamation League has decided to make common cause with Turkish genocide deniers out of recognition for Turkey's friendly relationship with Israel. I completely understand that Israel foreign policy needs to be what Israeli foreign policy needs to be, but I completely fail to understand why major American Jewish organizations need to subvert their own commitments to come closer in line with the dictates of Israeli foreign policy.
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Never Again
20 Aug 2007 11:20 pm
Comments (31)
Two things:
1) out of recognition for Turkey's friendly relationship with Israel.
I'm no fan of Abe Foxman, but that's only one of several reasons listed, and, in fact, the second to last one listed.
2) The Bill has a ridiculous 226 cosponsors:
Does this mean "the Lobby" dropped the ball?
Obviously the Armenian genocide is something that we should recognize, but at a time where the Islamist party just won an election, and we've really screwed with Turkey's frontier and their ability to control their own Kurdish terrorism problem, it's not necessarily a simple question - we've antagonized the Turks a lot lately, and this resolution will easily be sold to the "Turk on the street" as disingenuous moral grandstanding by a self-absorbed and troubled hyper-power that has no problem invading Muslim countries under false pretenses.
It's not as cut and dry a decision as it sounds.
This is comepletly wrong, but maybe they are afraid of Islamists killing Turkish Jews.
http://research.lifeboat.com/turkey.htm
You understand just fine.
I wonder if Matt will also chronicle all the Jewish groups involved in remembering the Armernian genocide. For example
http://www.flholocaustmuseum.org/press_room/Release.cfm?PressID=42
I guess that doesn't fit with his "see, I'm a real progressive, I criticise Israel and Jews more than any other country/people too" agenda.
How about criticizing the Turks for, you know, actually commiting the genocide and being the ones really responsible for the US not recognizing the genocide, but I bet Matt's "progressive" readers wouldn't get as much titilation if he criticised someone other than jews.
Dave,
What is www.lifeboat.com, and why does famed insane wingnut blogger "Pamela 'Atlas' Geller Oshry" have a seat on their "Human Trajectories" board?
Its gotta be the wackiest group I've ever heard of!
Simply a site that had a yahoo news article saved. I had never heard of it before.
"I completely fail to understand why major American Jewish organizations need to subvert their own commitments to come closer in line with the dictates of Israeli foreign policy."
Come on. You don't really mean that.
In subsequent days, Tarsy has drawn support from members of the ADL's New England regional board and the Jewish Community Relations Council of Greater Boston. In addition, several prominent Jewish communal figures in Boston -- including, a former AIPAC chairman, the chairman of Americans for Peace Now and Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz -- have either voiced support for Tarsy's side or directly criticized the ADL.
And I didn't see this (from the same article):
"Foxman has said that the genocide question should be resolved by historians"
What a prick. He should be retired immediately.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/08/18/a_painful_truth/
Matt had a post up about Gideon Rose that he pulled. A point he had made about Gideon Rose and liberal bloggers/conservative bloggers does seem to fit Dave's point. Awful lot of Israel bashing posts and not too many pro-Israel posts. I am not making any sort of claim here, just noting how similar that seems to your upset with Rose not ever criticizing conservative bloggers.
What happened to that post?
Dave -
(1) A real progressive criticizes America/Americans more than any other country/people. Israel and the Jews run a respectable but distinct second.
(2) Matt rather pointedly does *not* criticize Israel here.
(3) Atrios used to tag some of his posts (maybe he still does, and I don't know that he originated this) with a sentence or two labeled "Troll Prophylactic", in which he explicitly said something like "Of course I don't advocate lynching people" or "Needless to say, Stalin was not a good guy" - comments that a reasonable reader assumes as part of the background information we all bring to everything we read, and doesn't need spelled out for them. Perhaps Matt assumes that a reasonable reader of his blog doesn't actually *require* him to denounce the Turks for refusing to acknowledge their role in the Armenian genocide in order for it to be taken as a given that he thinks they're in the wrong on that. (Let alone, natch, the whole initial genocidal act.) Official Turkish (and American) behavior in this regard is in a real sense "noteworthy," but it's not necessarily "newsworthy", and I don't need Matt to tell me the Turks are wrong in order for me to assume he thinks so, since I generally assume that Matt is not an evil fucker. On the other hand, the apparent decision of a prominent American Jewish organization to, as Matt puts it, "subvert their own committments", *is* timely (it happened on Friday!), informative (I didn't know about it until Matt posted this link!), and surprises me: I haven't merely learned something I didn't know, I learned something I wouldn't have otherwise guessed at. I'd rather Matt spend his energy on stuff like this, serving his personal interests and the reasonable reader, than catering to every possible contingency of uncharitable interpretation, feverishly doling out hot items like:
"I just want to be clear that committing genocide is worse than firing somebody who thinks we should acknowledge that it's bad to pretend genocide wasn't committed"
and
"Holocausts: Objectively Horrifying"
plus not to mention
"Who got the rawest deal in the Armenian Genocide?: the Armenians!"
It's not as cut and dry a decision as it sounds.
True, the decisions of the US government about how it should conduct its relations with Turkey are inherently political. If governments decide not to press some past human rights issue because there are currently more important diplomatic fish to fry, that may or may not be justified. But isn't it part of the ADL's self-ascribed purpose that it should stay above this sort of power politics fray? The ADL is not a state conducting diplomatic relations, after all.
For example, I don't think you would find a group like Amnesty international announcing that it was not going to issue a report this year on political prisoners in China, for example, simply because China had been helpful to Amnesty International in other areas, or had contributed aid to some poor African nations.
Interesting oped SoCalJustice, thank you for the link.
I had really liked Dershowitz, then I really disliked him, and now damn you, I have to look at him all nuanced like.
"I wonder if Matt will also chronicle all the Jewish groups involved in remembering the Armernian genocide."
Why shouldn't Matt criticize the holy Abe Foxman for being an asshole? What do these other groups have to do with anything?
Matt wasn't saying anything at all about Jews in general, he was making a point about a bizarre stance taken by a specific very prominent Jewish activist who apparently has decided that some genocides can be denied if the price is right.
Ah, the sweet smell of genocide exceptionalism. At some point, the other people employed by the ADL -- it does employ other people, according to the Form 990 -- need to pension off Abe Foxman.
(When Americans discuss Iraq, I do wonder how many know that the area now described as 'Kurdistan' or variants thereof was once also populated by Armenians.)
Dan Kervick beat me to the punch. For what reason then should we ever listen to the Abe Foxman on moral issues anymore? Isn't it the point of the ADL to attack hate and anti-Semitism, not to promote Israeli foreign policy? Isn't the ADL supposed to be an American organization? It's sad how some people like Foxman forget that being Jewish, especially abroad, and being Israeli are not the same thing.
"How about criticizing the Turks for, you know, actually commiting the genocide and being the ones really responsible for the US not recognizing the genocide"
Just when I thought the anal sphixter could not possibly eject language, Dave came along to prove that it could.
Think about it. By your great moral standard, one should not cast scorn on those who deny the Holocaust, since had the Holocaust not actually occured, then these poor souls would not have to challenge its authenticity.
Another thing - the Turks massacring people did not "FORCE" America or the ADL or anyone else to NOT recognize the massacre. Such a judgment is up to those groups, and if they are too cowardly and too sordid to make it correctly, then they should be held accountable.
Really, this is one of those epic non-sequitors you cannot imagine even coming from a person's mouth. The ass, perhaps. Not the mouth.
Is there some particular reason why the US needs to make a point about a genocide that occurred whenever the hell in the past? Was the current Turkish government involved? Was anybody in the current Turkish government involved?
Then why do we care? Other than that it makes it easy for people like Dennis Hastert to get $50,000 bribes to kill the bill?
I recall reading somewhere something about how some major Turkish criminals, politicians and other high-ranking Turkish individuals ended up in a car crash. The fun thing is - they were all in the same car - indicating a major conspiracy cutting across party lines and indicating a depth of corruption in the country barely matched by that of Dick Cheney.
So why is it that we need to be passing bills about events in Turkey? Does the US need to be "remembering" every genocide that ever happened in human history?
Or is this in some way or form merely another attempt by the Israeli Lobby to get something from the US? What, I can't imagine, but aside from Dershowitz, the usual suspects seem to be lining up. And the only reason I can think of for Dershowitz being against the ADL on this issue is that he views the Holocaust as his personal baby and wouldn't like to see it become less useful as a weapon against "anti-Semites" if other genocides become conversational faire.
As for the ADL stepping out of their bailiwick, haven't you heard? The "New Anti-Semitism" is anybody who criticizes Israel for any reason. Look it up - it's in Wikipedia, as well as in the legal code of the European Union.
I'm waiting for it to be codified into law here now that Bush has decided that anybody who opposes "democracy in Iraq" is a "terrorist". Having the US DoJ arrest anybody who criticizes Israel would be heaven for the Israeli Lobby.
Think about it. By your great moral standard, one should not cast scorn on those who deny the Holocaust, since had the Holocaust not actually occured, then these poor souls would not have to challenge its authenticity.
Ouch. Dave just got pwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwned.
I'm sure Marty Peretz will find what the ADL is doing to be just peachy.
Are you guys sure that this news item isn't just a sick joke by Mel Brooks?
"Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Deutschland is happy and gay!
We're marching to a faster pace
Look out, here comes the master race! "
Shorter ADL:"I was not an Armenian"
"Is there some particular reason why the US needs to make a point about a genocide that occurred whenever the hell in the past? "
So that the next time someone like Hitler asks a room full of people, "Who remembers the Armenians?", the answer will be "The most powerful nation in the world does, in writing, voted on by the representitives of their people."
Re Njorl's comment "So that the next time someone like Hitler asks a room full of people, "Who remembers the Armenians?",
------------
Note to nonhistorians: Njorl is referring to the fact that Hitler often cited the genocide of the Armenians as realpolitik justification for his extermination of populations.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide#Influence_of_the_Armenian_Genocide_on_Adolf_Hitler
Would anyone like to ask the World Jewish Congress what their position is re Reparations for the Armenians?
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_reparations
How about the Palestinians?
I completely understand that Israel foreign policy needs to be what Israeli foreign policy needs to be
horrifying. Matt, provide some fucking context. What COULD that statement mean?
If this thread isn't entire dead, Harvey Silverglate of FIRE, a free-speech advocate has a clarifying perspective:
http://thephoenix.com/TheFreeForAll/PermaLink,guid,81db9893-bb68-43b7-9518-ef261fe0bef4.aspx
According to today's Ha'Aretz, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/895920.html
Foxman and the ADL have released a statement calling the Armenian massacres genocide.
Matt may want to update his post.
See the blog post by the Ha'Aretz columnist Shmuel Rosner for details:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerBlog.jhtml?itemNo=895975&contrassID=25&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=1&listSrc=Y&art=1
The ADL backpedaled a little but only where it had no cost. The ADL resolution ends with the following:
"Having said that, we continue to firmly believe that a Congressional resolution on such matters is a counterproductive diversion and will not foster reconciliation between Turks and Armenians and may put at risk the Turkish Jewish community and the important multilateral relationship between Turkey, Israel and the United States."
-------
The elephant in the room that is not being discussed is that Israel is in dire need of water, especially if the population grows further , she faces severe droughts from global warming , and she has talked with Turkey about running a big pipeline from the headwaters of the Euphrates to Israel.
Saddam Hussein objected to that diversion --which was one of the reasons why the Israel Lobby felt Saddam had to go.
So my guess is that the leaders of ADL will sit down over pork barbeque with David Duke before they will piss off Turkey.
As aways, citations and references available on request.
Who said water would ignite the 3rd World War? I'd like to buy that man a sammich. Perhaps a reuben.
" Perhaps a reuben."
---
Try Rein's Deli just east of Hartford on the Interstate. Only spot in Connecticut I care for -- they should give the rest back to the Indians.
It's sad how some people like Foxman forget that being Jewish, especially abroad, and being Israeli are not the same thing.
Posted by Reality Man | August 21, 2007 1:44 AM
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But if a non-Jew (goy?) like myself wonder whether Jewish American interests and Israeli interests are the same, we are of course anti-semitic in the eyes of Foxman.
Comments closed September 03, 2007.
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Heads in the Sand
So if Germany is sufficiently friendly with Israel, Abe Foxman will deny the Holocaust ever happened?
Wow.
Posted by Jon H | August 20, 2007 11:41 PM