Props for this. I recall having read somewhere, though, that most African-American Muslims these days actually aren't NOI and don't necessarily like it when people assume they are.
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The Case for the Nation of Islam
17 Aug 2007 06:09 pm
Comments (45)
I like what the NOI guy said. However, as is so often the case with the Nation of Islam, the palatable parts of their message -- keep clean, keep straight, look after your family, strive to improve yourself -- are available elsewhere, thereby freeing one from the requirement to sign on with a flying saucer cult led by a bigot who talks to dead people in outer space. And you're right -- Muslims are offended by the way the Nation appropriates their religious trappings. The most serious Nation acolytes tend to abandon NOI and move into mainstream Islam.
Great guys! Too bad about the little stuff like their track record of political murders in the Bay Area -- a journalist recently, at least 14 white people in the 1970 and probably more than 60 in total killed by at least four Black Muslim in the Zebra serial killings.
Here's the Wikipedia entry on the almost completely forgotten Zebra killings (which are much less famous than the earlier Zodiac serial killings, subject of a recent movie):
"The Zebra murders were a number of connected murders committed by a black supremacist serial killer ring which took place in San Francisco, California from 1973 until 1974, and which left at least 16 people dead ... The Zebra murders were the work of the Death Angels, a group within the black nationalist group, the Nation of Islam. According to the NOI's beliefs, the white race was created by a black mad scientist named Yakub, who, some say, wanted a race of inferiors to rule over. Furthermore, the Death Angels believed that they could earn "points" towards Paradise when they died if they killed as many whites as possible. The NOI's teachings presented whites not as human beings, but variously as "blue-eyed devils," "white devils," and "grafted snakes."
"Candidates would be invited to secret meetings at the NOI-owned Black Self-Help Moving and Storage; to attain the status of Death Angel, each man was expected to kill either nine white men, five white women or four white children. After attaining this goal, a pair of black wings would be attached to his photograph and pinned up in an upstairs room of the self-help building. Although killing was their main goal, death angel candidates would often use machetes to torture victims over long periods, and some women were also the victims of rape. ...
"While the Zebra killings were officially solved, some members of the Zebra task force suspected that up to 71 murders in California could have been the work of various Death Angels squads. Since many victims were drawn from the ranks of the homeless or hitchhikers, there is no certainty about the actual numbers. Today the murders have been largely forgotten — even within San Francisco — despite the enormity of the crimes when they happened and the great effect they had on the city. Only two books on the subject have been published, Zebra (1979), by Clark Howard which is currently out of print and The Zebra Murders: A Season of Killing, Racial Madness, and Civil Rights (2006) by Prentice Earl Sanders and Bennett Cohen."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_murders
And of course there's the NOI rubbing out Malcolm X in 1966, but at least that's well-remembered, such as in Spike Lee's movie -- unlike the spectacular but forgotten Zebra killings, which just show once again that there's no market in the modern media for non-cursory interest in black-on-white violence. Man bites dog white-on-black violence is of course gigantically fascinating to the prestige media, even when it never happened, as the NY Times falling hook, line, and sinker for the Duke Lacrosse hoax demonstrates once again.
Think about black people much, Steve?
Yes, I actually have learned a large amount of African-American history, which Matt, for example, obviously hasn't, as his "The Case for the Nation of Islam" shows.
Fair enough. I retract the earlier jab, which after hitting the post button, I immediately regretted.
I don't agree with you on this one, but that was dumb of me.
If anybody is interested in learning about the topic Matt brings up -- how the Nation of Islam persuades men from the bottom of society, especially felons in prison, to behave more morally toward other blacks, there's a short chapter in John Updike's 1978 novel The Coup that brilliantly depicts the essential appeal of the Black Muslims: racial hatred. Hate toward somebody else can be a quite powerful tool for getting people to behave better toward each other.
"I read somewhere that most African American Muslims aren't NOI" ... and most Mormons aren't Catholic either ! This post is really embarrassing.
To follow up on Steve, see immigration debate as an example of hating others leading to unity. Unifying for a certain group of people, but also creates serious divides in the GOP (as true in the black muslim community), and, as Karl Rove knew, sort of demolishes the ability to maintain a voting advantage as demographics change (and change rather rapidly).
I believe Matt was holding up the Irony Sign.
I was expecting corner guy to offer nation of islam guy $20 and a blow job.
I was expecting gorgeous girl to tell nation of islam guy to stop patronizing and disrespecting her, because as a proud feminist and rational adult she could take care of herself. And then I expected gorgeous girl to thank corner guy and smile.
I was expecting Kriston to apologize to everyone for a post filled with stereotypes and unbelievable dialogue. I was not able to suspend my disbelief. I was also expecting Kriston to have caught a picture of this on his iPhone, but not a movie, because at $600 the iPhone isn't capable of taking movies.
"However, as is so often the case with the Nation of Islam, the palatable parts of their message -- keep clean, keep straight, look after your family, strive to improve yourself -- are available elsewhere, thereby freeing one from the requirement to sign on with a flying saucer cult led by a bigot who talks to dead people in outer space. "
* substitute Christianity for the Nation of Islam
* substitute "flying saucer cult led by a bigot who talks to dead people in outer space" with "cults led by bigots of every stripe (the Pope, Pat Robertson, those Nigerian Anglicans who think gays are going to hell, etc) who believe that virgins can give birth, that people can rise from the dead, and who speak to people up in the sky"
Look, I'm as big a supporter of religious bigotry as anyone, I just prefer an equal-opportunity bigotry that treats all religions with the mockery they deserve.
I think it's the bigotry, not the belief, that folks find objectionable. I may be projecting....
I'm a non-believer, but I certainly don't have a problem with belief, I have a problem with bigotry. So I guess I agree with Maynard on one point, but don't find it all that objectionable that people develop beliefs in things that, taken without the bigotry, don't matter that much. You like the idea of heaven...fine with me.
As a pre-empt, I would also argue that a religious belief system does not necessitate bigotry. There are plenty of examples on both sides of this issue, of course.
Like you press a button, and the insane racist Stevie Guy comes alive.
Jennifer, are you writing about Steve Sailer? What was it that Steve wrote that was racist? (I assume you're not writing about Matt or Kriston (I think Kriston came the closest here to racist writing.))
I wonder if your knee is jerking so hard that it is keeping thoughts from completely forming.
Doesn't matter. A certain large segment of the American population will always find some reason or another to be scared of them.
mmmmm, bean pies.
What's truly precious is when Steve's fans all follow him here.
Steve, your ego is making assumptions that your body can't cash.
As always, it is important to point out that Sailer is a racist, in any definition of the term. He believes that black people are genetically predisposed to stupidity and criminality. Of course, he doesn't like the word racist, even though he likes the iconoclast pose that actually comes from being a racist.
Of course, soon we'll get the speech about how he's not a racist, cause he means black people no harm, and blah blah blah... but make no mistake. He thinks black people and Mexicans are inherently inferior. Don't get lost in his rhetoric.
He may believe that, but I don't think he has written that in this thread.
On the other hand, I have in this thread seen Kriston Capps and Matt make some embarrassingly ignorant and stereotyped remarks.
Am I missing something?
He may believe that, but I don't think he has written that in this thread.
Sailer is a blogger and a national columnist. He is one of the leading lights of the "race realist" movement. He has written in this space time and again about his beliefs. He is unapologetically a supporter of the view of blacks as being genetically predisposed to being less intelligent, more violent and more criminal than whites. Just Google his name.
Assume I have googled his name and the guy is in fact worse than David Duke.
Aren't you still giving Matt and Kriston a pass?
Posts about black people on this site always make me shutter because they inevitably bring out a guy who has gone on the record with his beliefs that blacks are genetically inferior.
Having said that, the argument that hate explains the NOI success is, to put it charitably, incomplete. You must remember that at the time the NOI boomed in membership, racist violence against blacks was coded in the fabric of the society. This "hate" didn't appear out of thin air. People salute MLK for his nonviolence and high moralism etc., but from the perspective of many blacks it simply burned us up to have to get our heads kicked in for the simple right, as Malcolm once put it, to sit on the toilet next to white people. The idea, for instance, that Jackie Robinson had to, not just be great ball player, but take the racist taunts of fans and hecklers and not respond, just seemed amazingly unfair. Here was a man who had to sacrifice basic human rights, for civil rights.
This was the appeal of the NOI. They posited a world--no matter how fanicful--in approval came from within, as opposed to from people who evidently hated you, and relied on your wretchedness to define themselves. Hate is clearly part of the NOI's appeal--but much more is a sort of psychic liberation, that frees black people from the burden of having to appeal to white people for thier humanity.
It's reductive--and seductive--to simply black people and thier prediliction. Sailer loves to do it, and is quite good at it. Still, it's sad to me that this racist who carries an ugly veneer of legitimacy has found a home here. I don't believe in quashing debate. But there's got to be limits. We don't entertain the arguments of Holocause deniers, afterall.
The Zebra Killers are pretty fascinating. Future SF Mayor Art Agnos was one of those attacked and barely survived,
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/zebra_murders/index.html
Did you know that there was also a Black Hebrew cult in Florida that involved a similar murderous rampage?
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/yahweh_cult/index.html
"Did you know that there was also a Black Hebrew cult in Florida that involved a similar murderous rampage?"
This doesn't surprise me too much. Another Army Reserve anecdote for today: there was a particular African American, a fellow NCO, who filed his finger nails to points for some reason. He also wore a Jewish star around his neck. Curious, I asked him if he was Jewish. His response: "No, I'm an Israelite". He then went into some brief, incoherent explanation of how blacks were the real Jews, and most Jews who thought of themselves as such weren't. I nodded and moved on.
How I would have handled this as the Corner Guy:
Corner guy (to passing woman): Damn, you look gorgeous. [Note: Practicing the Mystery Method of Pick Up Artistry...][Note: Relative sociocultural demographic and race of the Corner Guy and woman were not specified.]
Nation of Islam: I don't think you need to be saying something like that to her.
Corney Guy: Really? And who the fuck asked you to butt your ass in, homes? Is she your girl? If not, fuck right off! It was just a compliment.
Nation of Islam guy: She's not my girl. In my faith, the best compliments are kept in the heart.
Corney Guy: I do not give a rat's ass about your faith. And if you want to get laid, you pass out compliments. [Note: actually, the Mystery Method says you withhold compliments, but there's a time and place.]
Nation of Islam guy: I know this. But compliments shouldn't creep people out.
Corney Guy: Who the hell creeped anybody out? I said she looked gorgeous. She does! She got a problem with that, that's not my problem. What creeps people out is people butting their nose in to other people's business by throwing their weight around like they're some kind of "tough nigger" just because they're part of some "organization".
[Later, I saw the Nation of Islam dude again, and the woman clearly was his girl—I conclude he was feigning otherwise in hopes that the corner guy might learn the larger lesson.]
No, he was a goddamn hypocrite using his NOI membership to intimidate someone. Fuck him.
"I was expecting gorgeous girl to tell nation of islam guy to stop patronizing and disrespecting her, because as a proud feminist and rational adult she could take care of herself. And then I expected gorgeous girl to thank corner guy and smile."
Agreed. This PC crap that men can't come on to women is unbelievably stupid.
Granted, "Corner Guy" in reality was probably some street asshole himself and probably did creep the woman out. But he gets props for trying to pick her up (if he really was trying and not just being a street asshole.) In which case the NOI guy might have been trying to educate him without getting into a fight.
But that's not how it reads.
I really hope Matt wasn't taking this BS as some sort of "positive lesson" from the NOI. I'd have to seriously doubt his intelligence or his sexuality.
substitute Christianity for the Nation of Islam
Oh, please. Cults/New Religious Movements are pretty distinct from traditional organized religions. There are obviously Christian groups that have similarities to the Nation of Islam, but neither Christianity as a whole nor many of its more visible organized groups (Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, the mainline protestant churches, even crazies-in-their-own-way like the Southern Baptists) can really be compared to cults. Just because one disagrees with both the tenets of Catholicism and the tenets of the NOI, and dislikes the leaders of both, doesn't mean that the two are in fact very similar.
I really hope Matt wasn't taking this BS as some sort of "positive lesson" from the NOI. I'd have to seriously doubt his intelligence or his sexuality.
Perhaps I lack the fine understanding of how the Nation of Islam subjugates their women.
Perhaps the flip side of chivalry is a patronization.
But I don't think so.
A large portion of street comments are not genuine compliments to be taken at face value. In fact, 99% of them aren't. They're catcalls. Women do not appreciate them. To aver otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of the way the world works.
Has "Damn, you look gorgeous." ever succeeded? No, it hasn't. Street corner men do not comment on an unfamiliar woman's attractiveness in order to make her feel good. They do it because it makes them feel good. The Nation of Islam man understood that. I'd wager all women everywhere understand that. The only one enjoying the exchange is the Corner Guy. Nothing about this is innocent.
"I was expecting gorgeous girl to tell nation of islam guy to stop patronizing and disrespecting her, because as a proud feminist and rational adult she could take care of herself. And then I expected gorgeous girl to thank corner guy and smile."
To cloak this brand of harassment in the language of feminist empowerment is rank bullshit of the first order. Ask a feminist.
This PC crap that men can't come on to women is unbelievably stupid.
It ain't PC crap. Quite the contrary: it good manners, and I don't care what culture you're from. There's a time and place to initiate sexual interest and a variation on the wolf whistle is not appropriate. Men are conditioned to selectively ignore sexual disinterest from women. That 's why the Nation of Islam man's censoring was so commendable. A pound of feminist carping isn't worth an ounce of a fellow male saying, "Knock it off".
Capps established that the woman was, in fact, NOI's partner. The NOI didn't clarify this precisely because he was trying to avoid being dismissed as a guy who didn't want someone hitting on his girlfriend. He was trying to send a bigger message on how to be respectful of women in our society. Even if his motivation for doing so was coming from some religio-militaristic place, it doesn't matter. He was right.
Punk.
Has "Damn, you look gorgeous." ever succeeded? No, it hasn't.
That's how I met my wife!
And we still have never established if Nation of Islam guy is in fact, Nation of Islam, or if Kriston is just making some sort of stereotyped assumption.
"There are obviously Christian groups that have similarities to the Nation of Islam, but neither Christianity as a whole nor many of its more visible organized groups (Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, the mainline protestant churches, even crazies-in-their-own-way like the Southern Baptists) can really be compared to cults."
Fair enough. After all there are no cults with armies, let alone nuclear weapons. (Not yet, anyway.)
Actually, studies of local news show that black-and-white violence gets a disproportionate amount of coverage than intra-racial violence even though almost 90% of violent crimes in the US involves a victim and a perp of the same race. This is why when a victim of a murder is found, the preliminary profile tends to have police assume that the victim shared the same race as the perp.
That's how I met my wife!
On a street corner. Uh-huh.
Context. Learn it. Love it.
And we still have never established if Nation of Islam guy is in fact, Nation of Islam, or if Kriston is just making some sort of stereotyped assumption.
What are you smoking? Nation of Islam adherents are easily identifiable. Or are all black Muslims wearing suits and bow-ties these days?
How do you even know he's a Muslim? How do you know he was wearing a suit and a bow-tie? You seem to have assumed quite a bit. I suspect that's your privilege and speaking.
And regardless of what your mother may have taught you, it's not at all clear that all, or even most women hate wolf whistling.
Context, learn it. Love it.
I do admit I find it hilarious that you said "a pound of feminist carping."
And regardless of what your mother may have taught you, it's not at all clear that all, or even most women hate wolf whistling.
Um, actually, it is. It really, really, is.
Or As the poet saith,
A few times I've been around that track
So it's not just gonna happen like that
Cause I ain't no hollaback girl
I ain't no hollaback girl.
Perhaps the African-American variant on this sentiment is superior, perhaps not.
How do you even know he's a Muslim? How do you know he was wearing a suit and a bow-tie? You seem to have assumed quite a bit.
Are you daft? Mr. Capps indicated the man was a member of the Nation of Islam. They have a well-known dress code. Again, the men are easily identifiable and distinguishable from other African muslims, and indeed other African-Americans as well. I assure you, they're not the moneyed class straight from a black cotillion circuit.
But of course, this is the the crux of the matter: your moral and social antennae are grossly mistuned. You cannot see the identification of a uniform for what it is. Lacking context, you call it racism. Lacking gender-sensitivity, you regard a wolf-whistle as part of the natural tug & pull of the courtship ritual. You suspect that I am the beneficiary of privilege, which is laughable. You're batting 0-for-3.
And normally I wouldn't waste the time on one of Steve Sailer's trolls --except for the painfully conspicuous fact that you're the guy on the corner.
props to godoggo
Those bean pies were so good i
didn't even mind the racist pricing structure.
Me: "What do you mean whitey can't get 3 for $5."
Beanpie Retail Outlet(BRO): "For you my friend, 2 for $4."
Me: "Dude, I just saw you move like 12 pies at 3 for $5. Hook me up."
BRO: "Okay 3 for $6"
As to that fine, clean, old-fashioned “Christianity as a whole”, their followers have a lot to be proud of, don’t they?
Like the Crusades, slaughter of the Natïve Americans, etc….?
And regardless of what your mother may have taught you, it's not at all clear that all, or even most women hate wolf whistling.
Um, actually, it is. It really, really, is.
Or As the poet saith,
A few times I've been around that track
So it's not just gonna happen like that
Cause I ain't no hollaback girl
I ain't no hollaback girl.
Perhaps the African-American variant on this sentiment is superior, perhaps not.
How do you even know he's a Muslim? How do you know he was wearing a suit and a bow-tie? You seem to have assumed quite a bit.
Are you daft? Mr. Capps indicated the man was a member of the Nation of Islam. They have a dress code. Again, the men are easily identifiable. At the risk blowing your mind, may I suggest that in the inner city, an African-American so attired is probably not on his way to a black cotillion?
But of course, this is the the crux of the matter: your moral and social antennae are grossly mistuned. You cannot see the identification of a uniform for what it is. Lacking context, you call it racism. Lacking gender-sensitivity, you regard a wolf-whistle as a legitimate method of courtship.
And normally, one of Steve Sailer's trolls wouldn't be worth the time--except for the obvious fact that you're the guy on the corner.
Ha Ha, I like this one Sangfroid on the site you approve of.
Some anonymous asshole takes a picture of a guy sleeping on a train, and then posts it at a site and says, "he was staring at my chest.!"
Ha Ha! Sangfroid, I hope you enjoy the world you are creating.
This old feminist, a once-long-ago hot-pants wearing main girl of a "doctor of the streets" owner of a nightclub in a not so fine neighborhood, who even tho menopausal, now still occasionally has to suffer the humiliation by "corner guys,"
totally agrees with sangfroid826's interpretation.
Those of you who disagree all seem like highly protected people who don't know what it's like to be "on the streets."
I must add that I think the NOI guy in the story acted relatively favorably feminism-wise, for a member of a patriarchal cult. Gives me hope.
Will also add that there's a whole generation of men getting released from prison, a lot of them black, who haven't been trained therein in the "new" way to find mates, but are still thinking 1970's. It's not a small problem.
"A large portion of street comments are not genuine compliments to be taken at face value. In fact, 99% of them aren't. They're catcalls. Women do not appreciate them. To aver otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of the way the world works."
I said that explicitly in my post. Go back and reread it - if you can read.
Here, I'll quote it for you since you probably are too stupid to use your up and down keys:
"Granted, "Corner Guy" in reality was probably some street asshole himself and probably did creep the woman out. But he gets props for trying to pick her up (if he really was trying and not just being a street asshole.) In which case the NOI guy might have been trying to educate him without getting into a fight.
But that's not how it reads."
By the way, the "new way to find mates" is to allow women to walk all over the wimps males have become. It's a wonder the human species hasn't died out. It's becoming like the Victorian days - which generated probably more porn fiction than any time before the '70's.
Go read "The Game" and get an education about the reality of male-female relations.
In response to "punk": bitch.
By the way, the "new way to find mates" is to allow women to walk all over the wimps males have become. It's a wonder the human species hasn't died out.
Only narcissists are comfortable being treated like an aesthetic object. It's very simple: guy on corner who really really wants to meet a girl, instead of putting in a place as an object there for his judgment, actually goes up to her and says "hey, lady, I find you really, really attractive" and attempts to start a conversation.
Oh yeah, ye olden days--the Victorian mores of which you speak, an anomaly of a small upper middle class--I doubt many women then enjoyed having their teeth checked to see if they were a healthy specimen. Let me make it clear to the still clueless who have no sisters or mothers: if you want to judge women like cattle, keep it to yourselves, most of us are actual people and feel put down by it.
The "street corner" guy in the story sounds to me like he didn't need it to be made clear, he knew exactly why he was doing it, to humiliate. He's got nearly nothing self-confidence wise, putting someone in a place lower than his own, a mere object, makes him feel better. Here's a picture of the same old humiliation in the good old days, taken in 1951 by Ruth Orkin.
Richard Steven Hack, only a pathetic loser like you would need to read a bullshit book by another loser in order to "understand" women. You have shown by your previous posts that you know exactly zilch about women. You're that desperate that you need to read a "pick-up" book by a dude named "Mystery"?! HAHA.
Also, props to Sangfroid.
Comments closed August 31, 2007.
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Heads in the Sand
I wish all that our (the Bay Area's) Black Muslims did was tell guys not to be assholes. Sure beats extortion, raping 10 year olds and killing journalists. I guess DC has something over the Bay Area.
NB - I'm referring to the entire Your Black Muslims Bakery/Chauncey Bailey fiasco, I don't want to imply that all Black Muslims in the Bay Area are so awful.
Posted by Matt Zeitlin | August 17, 2007 6:29 PM