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Very Serious Samantha Power

09 Aug 2007 02:52 pm

I dunno if Kevin Drum's just being grumpy here, but if you can't see any daylight between Samantha Power's views and those of the dread Very Serious People, I think you're probably not looking very hard. I don't think this (in The New Republic, no less; PDF) was the standard VSP view of things in March 2003:

The exceptionalist impulses behind Bush's choices have been with us for a long time. What distinguished this round was that by 2002 the checks that could usually be counted on to rein in a president's militant moralism had vanished. On Capitol Hill, the House International Relations Committee and the Senate Foreign Relations Committee had gone out of fashion; Banking and Appropriations were in, and the globetrotting internationalists of yore had been replaced by a younger, untraveled, uncurious lot. They wouldn't challenge a wartime president's worldview. Congress nodded or whimpered. It did not meaningfully dissent, a devastating abdication for the branch responsible for investigation, legislation, and financial control. The media withered as well, becoming the home for Bob Woodward-style stenography rather than Woodward and Bernstein-style scrutiny. And the American people remained relatively insulated from the vitriolic anti-Americanism bubbling abroad.[...]

In this assessment, intentions, because they are unknowable and untrustworthy, are irrelevant. Abroad, they judge what they can see: means and results; and our policy choices in other arenas have harsh ripple effects on perceptions of our Iraq policy. The multidimensional picture is less persuasive than the single-issue picture: The U.S. foreign policy has to be rethought. It needs not tweaking but overhauling. We need: a historical reckoning with crimes committed, sponsored, or permitted by the United States.[...]

But, in using hard power, it is essential for the long struggle that the United States win international support and demonstrate its legitimacy. This requires giving before we demand. Doubling foreign aid is progress; proposing $15 billion for AIDS is extraordinary--but none of these gestures gets at the contradictions at the heart of U.S. foreign policy. [...]

Embedding U.S. power in an international system and demonstrating humility would be painful, unnatural steps for any empire, never mind the most potent empire in the history of mankind. But more pain now will mean far less pain later.

And, recall, again, this was before the Great Disillusionment with Bush and with the Iraq War. It's true, as Kevin says, that Power's not an isolationist or a pacifist and believes the United States should play a large role on the world stage. But it's silly and counterproductive for those of us -- people like me and people like Kevin -- to agree with the VSPs that pacifism or withdrawal from the world are the only viable alternatives to knee-jerk militarism and foreign policy by cliché.

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Comments (22)

Speaking of Very Serious People, check out Hilary's flip flop on discussing use of nuclear weapons:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2007/08/clinton_discussed_use_of_nukes.php

What a sleazebag she is.

Don't talk about your future nominee like that. Let's keep things civil.

BTW, let me ask again: Why is there no interest here in Kucinich's candidacy? He was against the Iraq War from the beginning too (even better than Obama, he was around to vote against it), and his domestic policy ideas are at least as populist as Edwards's, no? So why no love?

Because Kucinich is a nut, has lots of bad policy ideas mixed with a few good ones, and has absolutely no chance of winning anything outside of his Ohio district.

if you can't see any daylight between Samantha Power's views and those of the dread Very Serious People, I think you're probably not looking very hard.

Haha Matt, you are in love. I think Kevin's scoring is about right.

She has a pretty expansive view of the use of American power overseas (bad) but believes it should be harnessed to humanitarian goals (good). She kinda sorta opposed the Iraq war (good) but only because George Bush hadn't gotten the world community on board (not so good). She speaks out against the conventional wisdom (good) but makes reckless and disingenuous charges about what other presidential candidates have said (bad).

I'd vote for Kucinich, but then I'm an unreconstructed Euroweenie.

I think Power does take a somewhat different view than many in the Washington establishment. My problem is that because she is an Obama advisor, her differences with the establishment are being read into his Pakistan comments, which I think is giving him more credit than he deserves for fighting the establishment on this issue.

As for Clinton's earlier remarks being almost the same as Obama's, I'm not surprised. I'd only note Obama has done the same thing. The full text of his response to the AP on nukes read almost exactly like Clinton's "I won't answer hypotheticals" response - he refused to discuss a hypothetical re nukes, then when pressed started to, then "scratched" his comment and said it wasn't on the table. The AP only quoted the last part and not his initial refusal to respond to hypotheticals. Obama then issued a memo touting his "different" approach, when in fact it's exactly the same as HRC's, just taken out of context by the AP. Similarly, what he's said about his speech on Pakistan is somewhat different than his actual speech, he's been backpedaling for days about attacking al Qaeda in Pakistan without Musharref's agreement even as he goes after HRC/Biden/Dodd.

This entire "debate" is all heat and no light as far as I'm concerned. HRC and Obama have almost exactly the same position on Pakistan and Iraq. It's about each of them trying to seem different (more experienced, new) rather than them actually being different. No matter how various bloggers and spokespeople try to spin it, there's just not a whole hell of a lot of difference between Obama and Clinton on these issues - they are both within the mainstream Washington establishment, for better or worse.

Where's Kevin? Home Alone? Power had it just right. She (and I) were dead-set against invading Iraq what w/ the fiascos at the UN and all the bailing allies, but we're not pacifists or noninterventionists; I suspect that she (and I) would have been on board if there had been a big, hairy consensus force, an actual, politically heavyweight coalition of the willing--with NATO and/or a majority of the UN Security Council with us. That's just historical realism.

It still would have been a big mistake, I guess--but I have to admit that I would have been on board. Seriously: Kevin wouldn't have?

if you can't see any daylight between Samantha Power's views and those of the dread Very Serious People, I think you're probably not looking very hard.

Haha Matt, you are in love.

Can you blame Matt for falling for such an intelligent and attractive Irish lass?

She had me at "globetrotting internationalists of yore had been replaced by a younger, untraveled, uncurious lot" (actually, even before then), but those green eyes seal the deal.

BDB

"I think Power does take a somewhat different view than many in the Washington establishment. My problem is that because she is an Obama advisor, her differences with the establishment are being read into his Pakistan comments, which I think is giving him more credit than he deserves for fighting the establishment on this issue."

Can you explain this. I do not understand. Did Power approve the Obama argument on attacking Pakistan? I would like to know where the argument came from in the Obama camp.

BDB- Absolutely right. The meta-nature of the Pakistan Invasion/Bombing/Covert Ops/Hand Holding/or whatever debate is beyond silly. Everybody agrees, but they're not sure what they agree on, but in any case their meta-substance is much better than their opponents. To the extent that Power is contributing to this silliness, she is indeed "very serious."

"Seriously: Kevin wouldn't have?"

Wasn't Drum in the hand-wringing-but-mostly-pro contingent at the time of the war?

Anyway, I'm a liberal interventionist, and I wouldn't haven't been pro-war if we had magically come up with a real international coalition based on the data available at the time.

Drum quotes Power saying

"When asked whether he would use nuclear weapons to take out terrorist targets in Pakistan and Afghanistan, Barack Obama gave the sensible answer that nuclear force was not necessary, and would kill too many civilians."

Does Drum disagree?

"Conventional wisdom held this up as a sign of inexperience."

Hillary and other senators if I remember correctly. They said everything should be on the table.

"But if experience leads you to make gratuitous threats about nuclear use — inflaming fears at home and abroad, and signaling nuclear powers and nuclear aspirants that using nuclear weapons is acceptable behavior, it is experience that should not be relied upon."

Obama/Power 1 CW 0. Yes in fact Mr. Drum, saying everything is on the table is a gratuitous threat to use nukes.

What's bizarre is that Kevin has it out for VSPs, liberal hawks, etc., and here he's bashing an advisor to Obama, who was against the war at the time, while Hillary, etc voted for the war!

Whoever contributed to Obama comment on attacking Pakistan is at fault and has seriously harmed Obama. This was a serious foreign policy mistake. What is not clear is whether Power is simply covering for Obama or contributed.

Sorry for way OT and sorry for picking on AJ, but I am grateful that Aristotle and Descartes did not live to see "meta-substance".

I took K-Drum's meaning to be that Power's a hard case if you're trying to draw a bright line between VSPs and non-VSPs. And as far as I can tell, he's right about that.

Her memo from a few days ago strongly implied the US should withdraw from Iraq. Her LA Times peice from a few months ago said the US should be consdering a partition of Iraq and supervision of the de-mixing of ethnically mixed parts of the country. I.e., in her persona as Scourge of Genocidaires, she's advocated that the US mediate--in the most robust possible sense of "mediate"--the Iraqi civil war. And that's not going to involve withdrawl.

I like Power. I'm glad she, and not any more straightforward VSP, is advising Obama. But right now, I can't quite figure out what her views on Iraq are, and I don't have a good sense of what she thinks the take-home lessons of Iraq should be for a humanitarian interventionist. That's not to say her views are incoherent, just that *I* haven't been able to make sense of them. But without a clear sense of those views, I'm forced to agree wth K-Drum that she's kinda sorta a VSP and kinda sorta not.

"The AP only quoted the last part and not his initial refusal to respond to hypotheticals. Obama then issued a memo touting his "different" approach, when in fact it's exactly the same as HRC's, just taken out of context by the AP."

That's true, but symbolic disagreements have a funny way of becoming substantive ones. It's pretty clear to me that Obama at one time, like say a month ago, was trying to appeal to the Very Serious Person crowd. Thus his (in context) response to the AP on Nukes. But since it was taken out of context, and since Clinton tried to deck him over that as well as over Pakistan and over negotiating preconditions, Obama's totally abandoned his Very Serious Person outreach out of political necessity and now has to pave his own way forwards.

I think it's quite plausible that from here on out Obama's policy positions as well as his rhetoric will increasingly reflect his political rejection of the Washington consensus. And that would be a very good thing. So no, the whole dustup these past few weeks isn't particularly substantive--yet. But it could very well be the start of something quite important.

Just to add on to the above comment, Obama ain't gonna win the primary by trying to out-Clinton Clinton. He's always needed to chart his own path, needed to draw real and important policy differences between their two candidacies. He hasn't done that yet. But the dustup these past few weeks presents a perfect opportunity for Obama to create those differences. I hope he takes it. He has a good shot of winning the nomination if he pulls off such a feat successfully.

HRC and Obama have almost exactly the same position "on Pakistan and Iraq."

What's far worse is they are almost exactly in the same position on Iran. MAYBE Obama wants to talk more before attacking Iran. MAYBE.

I'd only trust Obama's position if he came out and said explicitly that there is NO - repeat NO - evidence of ANY Iranian nuclear weapons program existing.

Even then, even if such evidence became clear and convincing to even the skeptics, there would STILL be no legitimate reason to even consider a military strike on Iran absent a credible immediate threat to an ally such as Saudi Arabia.

And he hasn't even come CLOSE to admitting that.

Which makes him a war hawk just as bad as Hillary and the rest of the "VSP" - and not much better than a neocon.

"Can you blame Matt for falling for such an intelligent and attractive Irish lass?"

I prefer Andrea Corr whose new song "Shame On You" is an antiwar song that criticizes military recruiting of the young to die in war.

You can see the video here:
http://www.myspace.com/andreacorrofficial

You can download acoustic versions from her recent appearances on various radio shows from my minimal Corrs site, http://www.corrsamerica.com/

She's careful not to state that the song is directly against Bush and Blair. She says she read a book about WWI and looked around and found it all relevant today.

The video uses images of war orphans and child soldiers to condemn the waste of war.

Personally I think the song title, "Shame On You", is perfect as a Bush-Cheney impeachment theme song.

Foreign adventurism is dead as a policy, no matter how many of you war-hawk dems don't want it to be the case.

Steve, no it doesn't. It is very troubling, but he is not a war-hawk on anything approaching the level of Hillary Clinton. That would be as insane as saying that for all the things she believes, Hillary Clinton is as hawkish as Lieberman. I would truly love to be able to say that it's true, but the actual facts just bear it out.

I see (and hear) what you mean, Richard. Thanks for the tip.

"Foreign adventurism is dead as a policy, no matter how many of you war-hawk dems don't want it to be the case."

I don't see the U.S. attacking Iran, either. Also I see the people of Darfur abondaned to the slaughter by the pacifist "left." "Nothing to do with me." Ignorance. Complacency. Indifference.


Comments closed August 23, 2007.

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