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Attacking Iran

19 Sep 2007 03:34 pm

Salon publishes Steve Clemons' "Why Bush Won't Attack Iran". It's an interesting piece, but as Brian Beutler points out the conclusion is actually that we should . . . worry about a war with Iran! Specifically, "an engineered provocation" that "would most likely be triggered by one or both of the two people who would see their political fortunes rise through a new conflict -- Cheney and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad."

That said, I've become a bit of a skeptic about the short-term prospects for war. I see very little political interest in such a war from anyone. At the same time, the Iran hawks have succeeded in getting every major political figure to agree that all options, including war, must be "on the table" and that a nuclear Iran is unacceptable. And they've also succeeded in preventing everyone in practical politics from talking about the sort of things that would go into a serious diplomatic settlement. Under the circumstances, the medium-term prospects for war seem to me to remain decent, and from an Iran hawks' point of view it'd probably be better to have any military strikes happen under a less discredited future president than under the unpopular incumbent.

Along those lines, Moira Whelan observes:

Bushies know Democrats want to look tough on terrorism—so if Iran is helping the Taliban, why are they being allowed to get away with supporting it? They know the progressive commitment to non-proliferation, so why is Iran escaping scrutiny? Then, of course, there’s their drum beat on Iran’s involvement in Iraq.

All of these arguments will be part of the neocons attempt to tie the hands of the next President. This benefits them in two ways. First, they use it as a domestic political issue to attempt to make Democrats look weak on critical national security issues if there is no action. Second, they attempt to get what they want--an attack on Iran—without the resulting mess on their hands. Either way, they spend some time driving the debate and acting as “deciders” of handling Iran being right or wrong (newsflash: it will be wrong). In the meantime, the Democratic administration will say things like “its complicated” and “we’re working it diplomatically”—a position that may be right, but is always a tough sell.

And, of course, there are some fairly committed Iran hawks on the merits inside the broad Democratic coalition.

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Comments (27)

Speaking of engineered provocations, President Bush could just dust off his plan to paint an American spy plane in UN colors and send it over Iraq so they'd shoot it down and the war would be their fault. (Hmmm...sounds familiar.)

"At the same time, the Iran hawks have succeeded in getting every major political figure to agree that all options, including war, must be "on the table" and that a nuclear Iran is unacceptable."

Have you ever bluffed in Poker, Matt? When doing so, did you want your opponent to think that all you had was crap?

Frankly, since big swathes of the American government considers external reality an afterthought, I'm pinning my hopes on Putin. I'm hoping that he sells shiploads of SAM's and surface-to-ship missiles to Tehran. I'm hoping that he can make Iran bristle with so much effective defensive missilery that even the Douhet groupies among our aviator set (of whom Gen. LeMay and Don Rumsfeld are only the most notorious examples) have second thoughts about "getting our hair mussed". Deterrence.

There seems to be a general behavioral comprehension problem affecting the commentariat. The Cheney gang have been almost 100% successful in getting what they want. That's because they have mastered the art of Washington infighting. They now want war with Iran. Why should they not get it?

Reason has been no barrier to Cheney's madness in the past. Why should it be a barrier now? Wishful thinking is no substitute for insight. Cheney is a menace to world peace, and the refusal to remove him from office makes the rest of us complicit in his bloody actions.

Who bears the greater responsibility: the madman Cheney, or the fools who enable him?

I don't think Bush will bomb Iran - I'd vote with Scowcroft in Stephen Clemons scenario. But if the Bushies do, there might be an unexpected benefit: the majority that wants to withdraw from Iraq would finally lose patience. In Vietnam, when Nixon and Kissinger decided to actually spread the war, going into Cambodia and Laos, the payback in the drop in support for the war - cashed out in a number of ways, not least of which was a Dem majority Congress - blocked N. and H. from extending the American presence in South Vietnam. In the case of Iraq, given the chaos that will come across the border, as well as the increase in petroleum prices, the bombing of Iran would have a good chance of making it much harder to support any troops in Iraq. It would reveal that face saving plan as a continual provocation. And since, most likely, the Iraq situation, from the American perspective, is going to get worse and worse - we have all the makings of a Sadr spring coming up - illogical aggression combined with the five years of catastrophically stupid planning ought to bury the hawks politically.

Not that that news will get to the braindead beltway until election time. In the beltway, bombing Iran is probably the favored option, the one endorse by Republicans and serious, Lieberman and Hiatt style 'liberals'.

I suspect that the entire left is bereft of people who have played any games - cards or otherwise - that involve bluffing.

I don't think Bush will bomb Iran - I'd vote with Scowcroft in Stephen Clemons scenario. But if the Bushies do, there might be an unexpected benefit: the majority that wants to withdraw from Iraq would finally lose patience. In Vietnam, when Nixon and Kissinger decided to actually spread the war, going into Cambodia and Laos, the payback in the drop in support for the war - cashed out in a number of ways, not least of which was a Dem majority Congress - blocked N. and H. from extending the American presence in South Vietnam. In the case of Iraq, given the chaos that will come across the border, as well as the increase in petroleum prices, the bombing of Iran would have a good chance of making it much harder to support any troops in Iraq. It would reveal that face saving plan as a continual provocation. And since, most likely, the Iraq situation, from the American perspective, is going to get worse and worse - we have all the makings of a Sadr spring coming up - illogical aggression combined with the five years of catastrophically stupid planning ought to bury the hawks politically.

Yeah, sure, swell. But I think you persist in the notion that an Iranian war will be much like Vietnam and Iraq -- something that happens over there, that we follow (or not) on the tube and in the papers. But this next war will be the first one in at least a couple of generations that touches Americans directly. At best the effects will be a severe economic downturn; at worst -- hey, maybe Tehran really does have some commandos squirreled away here, eh?

I expect that an Iranian war will make our political life very, very interesting, but not in a way that has anything to do with Republican/Democrat sparring matches.

I don't think the Pentagon would let him. Beyond that with oil over $80 and inflation looming as a serious issue ,just as the Fed did a panic rate cut the possibility of one hundred and who knows how much more dollar oil would scare the crap out of the financial world.

Bush will do everything God tells him to do, except scare the money men and heighten the risk of recession. In other words I don't think God is going to be in Bush's ear about bombing Iran. He would probably even get some spine with Uncle Dick.

Iran is not helping the Taliban. It would make no sense for them to do so, since the Taliban relish killing Shiites, and committed a democide of Hazara Shiites last time they had control of most of Afghanistan.

I don't think the Pentagon would let him.

I dont know about "letting" him but I agree there will be resignations before such a strike does occur. Enough people are so strongly against it that there is NO WAY it will happen without some protest resignations.

If & when you hear/read that multiple members of the Pentagon brass have resigned, possibly including the SecDef, you will know that an attack on Iran is definitely coming soon.

"Iran is not helping the Taliban. It would make no sense for them to do so, since the Taliban relish killing Shiites, and committed a democide of Hazara Shiites last time they had control of most of Afghanistan."

One, similar things have happened before. Sunnis and Shias put aside their differences (briefly) during the Crusades era, under Saladin.

Two - you know, the whole "enemy of my enemy" thing.

sglover, I don't really think we are disagreeing. Although I don't think Iraq is "over there" or on the tubes for a significant number of Americans. While I have strong doubts the Iranians have sleeper cells in the U.S. - that, I think, would be a foolish and expensive move, when making trouble for the U.S. could be done a lot more thoroughly throughtout the Middle East - I think a war with Iran would have the effect of making the burden of Iraq that much more stark and unbearable. It isn't that I want to solve an internal U.S. problem - a hyperactive military sector that needs to be cut by about 2/3rds - on the back of dead Iranians. But, in the speculative game of "will Bush do the last supremely stupid thing he wants to do", one should project scenarios.

But here's the thing - if Bush does bomb Iran, will he try to turn that into a "war" - or will he claim it is a kind of one off, like Reagan bombing Libya? I'd bet that he'd go for the Reagan model.

The people who want the US to attack Iran are members of the Israel Lobby like Haim Saban -- who are afraid future administrations might leave Israel holding the bag. Even future administrations elected with Haim Saban's money ( cough Hillary cough).

The attack on Iran won't happen until after the Defense Appropriations Act for 2008 --with the $146 Billion Iraq supplemental -- is passed. Once that Act is passed, then Bush has no incentive to give a hairy rodent's posterior what Members of Congress think.

"One, similar things have happened before. Sunnis and Shias put aside their differences (briefly) during the Crusades era, under Saladin.

Two - you know, the whole "enemy of my enemy" thing."

Except that the Taliban issued a fatwa against Tehran. Tehran also gave us intelligence during the early days of the war in Afghanistan. The Taliban and Tehran would likely have no real ability to trust each other even if they both hated us. The Taliban is no longer a state and is becoming more of a Pashtun chauvinism movement. As such, it is not constrained like a state and is much harder to control.

And amazingly, the same kinds of Fatwas and internecine attacks occurred during the 11th and 12th century - but Sunnis and Shia did cooperate against the Latin kingdoms.

sglover - I'm pinning my hopes on Putin. I'm hoping that he sells shiploads of SAM's and surface-to-ship missiles to Tehran.

Nothing like being a traitor, rooting for your nation's enemy to be better-armed.

No doubt your parents were rooting for the Chinese and Russians to get better weapons to the VC to kill US GIs in that conflict and "force an end to running dog imperialism over the correctly aligned Red masses".
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Speaking of Vietnam, Roger repeats the Lefty trope of "America expanding the War" - In Vietnam, when Nixon and Kissinger decided to actually spread the war, going into Cambodia and Laos, the payback in the drop in support for the war - cashed out in a number of ways, not least of which was a Dem majority Congress

It was the Grand Lefty Cause of it's day, claiming we "expanded the war" when what Nixon did was attack North Vietnamese regiments that had invaded Laos and Cambodia and were using them as staging areas for attacks on S Vietnam and logistics (the Ho Chi Minh Trail ran mostly trough Laos and Cambodia). Nixon "expanded the War" in the same way FDR "expanded the War" by rooting out Nazi regiments from N Africa and Jap regiments from Guadacanal instead of having more limited objectives than the enemy did..If we only attack the Nazis in France, we will successfully limit the War!

After the war, General Giap expressed amazement it took so long for America to go after his supply routes and reserve NVA weapons depots & bases in what the American Left Democrats called "Sanctuary". He credited Chinese threats, China's pawn Cambodian Prince, and "our socialist, progressive allies in Europe and in the enemy nation itself..." for forestalling it.

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r4d20 - I dont know about "letting" him but I agree there will be resignations before such a strike does occur. Enough people are so strongly against it that there is NO WAY it will happen without some protest resignations.

Agree that everyone in America wants Iran to end it's nuclear weapons program. And that if war is necessary, it happens under a new competent President, rather than Bush II. But I think it will come from a realization by Democrats and Republicans that war is absolutely unavoidable. And realization by our allies and key regional players - namely Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Russia via Azerbaijan...that war is absolutely unavoidable and they will join. Plus the do-nothing ever for UN, do nothing but suck up the economic benefits paved with the global security sacrifices of others - Chinese - will please themselves so much by remaining "neutral" and not sell Iran anymore weapons while a war is on.

That would be either the nuke bomb issue - OR - it could be something unexpected - like Revolutionary Guard doing a kidnapping raid like with the craven Brit sailors, or start launching Chicom-made antishipping missiles at US warships or commercial Gulf traffic.
The Guard is Shiite religious fanatics with the same weapons as regular Iranian military, but not under their chain of command.

IF a War starts, I believe the public will back ending permanently the Iranian threat to Gulf oil, which means wiping out all Iranian military assets in or near the Gulf, the remnants of their AF, plus enough of a chunk of the nuke weapons and missile project
to set them back 5-10 years.
And people the public, except the Hard Left, will accept the need to end Iran as a threat, they will accept Hezbollah cells here killing infidels as part of that price and ask the US to go at Iran even harder.
We may even need a Draft if we decide Iran can't be within 100 miles of the Iranian coast. We may have to wreck Iran's modern infrastructure to win a war. So be it. We may even have to use nukes if Iran uses its biowar or nerve gas on us, or allies. I doubt they will dare in a war, but if they do, so be it...

Actually, there isn't really any mystery about who is supporting the Taliban. It was and is supported by Pakistan. It also reputedly has a good source of arms from the Saudi elite that financed the Sunni insurgency in Iraq.

If American reporters wanted to, they could report on these connections every day. But... it wouldn't be in the interests of the administration. So they won't. Instead, they will magnify what is at best speculation, and ignore the obvious. Hilariously, this means, on the one hand, reporting feel good stuff about our guy in Kabul, Karzai, and on the other hand, ignoring everything Karzai has to say about Iran and Pakistan. But what would the Afghanistan government know about the Taliban, after all, compared to various relaible neo-con unnamed sources?

I mean, pretending that the reality is different to flatter the vanity and the hypertension of the D.C. brainless set has always worked so well in the past, hasn't it?


Voice of America and Fiasco at Persian Service.

As a native born Iranian, I would like to suggest that there is no need to attack Iran militarily if the Bush administration pays attention to those who know the situation and use the awesome power of publicity instead of military.
Millions of dollars are spent in Persian Service of Voice of America but the end result is nothing but scandalous way of management and programming.
It is hard to believe but the Persian Service which supposed to be an organization to convey the policy of the U.S. has become a free platform for hard-line terrorist group of communists who attack the United Sates!
I have the documents in writings to prove that these were done with the knowledge of the management.
I used to work there and as I said before, I have all the documents in writings.
The manager is a woman called Sheila Gandji who can not read and write Persian. Therefore, in order to hide this shortcoming from the higher management, she has hired an eighty something man called Kambiz Mahmoudi who has a lengthy background as crook and in charlatanism.
Don’t think that this is a personal vendetta.
Let me quote you a view from another media:
"The Iran Steering group concluded that much of the anti-American perspective that is broadcast is the result of decisions made by station managers in Washington D.C. and Prague. Sheila Gandji, the manager of Persian service has faced sharp criticism, particularly for her decision to stop VOA shortwave radio program in July, 2006 in order to focus on television broadcasts, which are more susceptible to censorship, since the government regularly confiscates satellites dishes in order to prevent the infiltration of foreign broadcasts."
The bizarre situation at the Persian Service of Voice of America caused the Republican Senator Coburn to write a long letter to President Bush about the fiasco there.
It is only in America where the government pays to be insulted.
Really, why Voice of America is doing this harm to our nation?
Do you want more information? Write me: ijadi14@yahoo.com

Re: Bush will do everything God tells him to do, except scare the money men and heighten the risk of recession.

And add to that: "Destroy any possibility the GOP has of eking out a presidential win or holding their own in Congress next year". The Bush administration has been about policy in the service of politics from day one. Last year they got caught with their pants down. Even if Bush is stupid enough and Cheney crazy enough not to know or care what the political fallout from an Iranian War would mean, I don't think the rest of the GOP is out to lunch there.

Re: The Guard is Shiite religious fanatics with the same weapons as regular Iranian military, but not under their chain of command.

Mao's Red Guards were not under the command of the People's Army, and they were at least as fanatically looney tunes as Iran's Guard. But I don't recall the Great Helmsman ever letting them off the leash long enough for them to start any wars. Nor did he entrust any nuclear weapons to them. Iran's Revolutionary Guard makes for a good vicious dog with which scare enemies both foreign and domestic. But the Mullahs have the dog on a short chain. It can bark and snarl loudly, but it isn't allowed to bite anyone who doesn't intrude on their property first.

Hey, Chris Ford -- I said deterrence. You wanna measure treason by damage to the country, Bush & Cheney and their accomplices are the traitors, fuckwit.

I will personally donate $1,000 to the cause of sending Chris Ford to Iraq to fight. This bloodthirsty NeoCon warrior should not be held back any longer by the limitations of his parental allowance. Assuming he is at least 18 years old, I think Chris will make a fine addition to the occupation forces. How about it, Chris? When will you be ready to ship out? I know you want to see blood, and I am sure the Iraqi insurgents are ready to oblige.

"I've become a bit of a skeptic about the short-term prospects for war. I see very little political interest in such a war from anyone."

Christ, Matt, I give up.

You are simply clueless.

You have finally graduated to that ultimate step of becoming a "Very Serious Person" - you've become totally fucking clueless.

Fine. Whatever.

It's clear to me that, just so you don't get caught supporting another stupid war like you did with Iraq, you're just going to safely deny that any war is possible. Then when it happens, you can say you were blameless.

I guess you learned this sort of intellectual cowardice from Josh Marshall, the master of it.

Sure, you say that the "medium term prospects are decent". What the hell does that mean? War in December 2008? Okay, fine, that IS possible.

But you continue to believe that this whole business is somehow nothing but politics.

When are you going to answer the fucking question, Matt?

Do you believe these assholes are just political cretins with NO interest in a) seizing oil, b) destabilizing the ME for the benefit of the US and Israel, and c) lining their fucking pockets with war profits for their cronies?

Because if that happens to be a correct reading of the situation, we might actually be in luck and there will be no war in Iran.

My opinion is that if you really believe that, however, you are fucking clueless.

Bush and Cheney are WAR CRIMINALS and WAR PROFITEERS and NEOCONS. They do NOT make US foreign policy just to fuck with the Democrats!

Get a fucking clue, Matt! THIS IS NOT ALL ABOUT YOU AND THE DEMOCRATS!

But the Mullahs have the dog on a short chain. It can bark and snarl loudly, but it isn't allowed to bite anyone who doesn't intrude on their property first.

Err, that would be the Guard, the Pasadran - that helped blow up the Israeli Embassy in Argentina, that armed Hezbollah, that assassinated Iranian dissidents all through Europe and the ME? That Pasadran? Same chaps who sent 8-year old kids into minefields to blow them and the mines up, armed only with a page of the Qu'ran and a plastic key they were told opens the Gates of Paradise?

Those guys on a tight leash?

Same ones who have given Iraqis Iranian-made RPGs, mortars, and EFPs that have killed 300 servicemen and maimed over 800? That almost started a war already by trying to kidnap some Aussies, some Americans along the Border (we killed several in driving them back into Iran), and did kidnap some craven Brits?

No, these guys are not on a tight leash. That or the orders to kill Americans in Iraq with EFPs came right from the Supreme Leader. Lefties can't have it both ways. Either the Pasadran are reckless, or they are carrying out Kahmenei's
direct commands....
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I will personally donate $1,000 to the cause of sending Chris Ford to Iraq to fight.... This bloodthirsty NeoCon warrior should not be held back any longer....How about it, Chris? When will you be ready to ship out? I know you want to see blood, and I am sure the Iraqi insurgents are ready to oblige.
Posted by HH

Already did my time, and got some nice commendations for personally helping kill Iraqis in the Gulf War. Even shook hands with a Kuwaiti Prince congratulating us and issuing letters of praise..

But in your case, it does turn out that the military does need Lefties like you. They are having difficulty interrogating Iraqi and Al Qaeda prisoners and current incentives don't work well.
That is where an enemy lover like you could be so valuable. We could reward cooperative captured combatants with sex. They all favor "camp boys", and all the blowjobs and occasions where you are rump-ridden by the Muslim fighters you sympathize with - will no doubt be pleasurable for you and reveal good info to America's side. You only need a month's training - things like learning Arabic for "Bend over", how to "baaaa" like the finest Yemeni ewe would and you get instructions in fleece wearing to boot.

As a Lefty, no doubt you feel bad that the military doesn't take open gays. Consider you being a boy toy giving radical Muslims Happy Endings as an, "ahem", back door way where the military would want more of your kind...

Re: Those guys on a tight leash?

Yep. A few minor terror attacks do not mean that the Guard is rampaging all over the world starting wars where they please. Also, whatever they did during the Iraq-Iran war was in defense of their own homeland. Presumably we should not criticize a nation, even one we dislike, for defending itself from invasion? As for the mullahs they are corrupt and cynical old men who have profitted quite well from their position-- rather like the USSR's Politburo. Do you really think they would do anything (like start a war with America) to endanger the power and perks they have gained?

Chis Ford provides a clinical demonstration of the connection between support for American military aggression and the protection of his "manliness," something that is under steady assault from the homosexual fantasies that creep into his thoughts.

To return to the subject of war in the Mideast, I find it strange that an experienced veteran like Chris Ford would not be eager to rejoin the military at a time when America, nay all of Western Civilization, is threatened by the Jihadi menace. Instead, Chris Ford wants tens of thousands of OTHER Americans to bleed and die in the Mideast.

I wonder how many young Americans are prepared to die for Chris Ford's manliness?


But in your case, it does turn out that the military does need Lefties like you. They are having difficulty interrogating Iraqi and Al Qaeda prisoners and current incentives don't work well.
That is where an enemy lover like you could be so valuable. We could reward cooperative captured combatants with sex. They all favor "camp boys", and all the blowjobs and occasions where you are rump-ridden by the Muslim fighters you sympathize with - will no doubt be pleasurable for you and reveal good info to America's side. You only need a month's training - things like learning Arabic for "Bend over", how to "baaaa" like the finest Yemeni ewe would and you get instructions in fleece wearing to boot.

My, you do seem a tad, ahem, over-interested there, eh, Chris? Anyway, you've revealed probably more than you intended. Now I know that I can simply skip past your remarks henceforth. Thanks for the time-saver!

Is this guy Ford for real, or is it some giant piece of snark?

In any case, by design or by accident, the war between Israel and Hezbollah was a dress reharsal for a war between USA and Iran. Hezbollah managed to maintain firing missiles for more than a month, they fired, succesfully, a single anti-ship missiles, and direct attacks on their position were strangely ineffective, in spite of total air superiority and a monopoly on heavy weapons.

So, can Iran mantain to lob effective anti-ship missiles for months, blocking traffic in and out of Persian Gulf, while sustaining bombardment and confining Marines to small beachheads? The ratios do not look too good. Iran should have 20-50 times more resources than Hezbollah, and better missiles to boot, while we have perhaps 10 times the military resources of Israel.

So suppose that it is already 3 months of blocked traffic in and out of Persian Gulf, and Iran vows to keep going until they get apologies and reparations. What do we do?


Comments closed October 03, 2007.

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