« Time to Update the Website | Main | The Baghdad Focus »

Bad Odds

09 Sep 2007 08:26 am

George Packer's latest article on Iraq comes as close as anything I've seen from the "the Iraq War is terrible but we have a moral obligation to continue occupying the country indefinitely against the will of the Iraqi people" crowd to dealing with the basic problem that their proposed solutions are unlikely to work:

Toby Dodge admitted that anyone arguing against immediate withdrawal has to face the “killer question: Why should American troops continue to die when the chances for success are so low?” He offered his answer “with an honest recognition that it doesn’t sound very plausible.”

Now wait for the answer, and note that Dodge is right, it really doesn't sound plausible:

Dodge’s approach would bring the maximum pressure to bear on Iraqi politicians by persuading the region and the world—Iraq’s neighbors, the European Union, the United Nations—to come into the Green Zone, not as tools of American policy but as equal partners in an effort to force a political deal, not unlike the U.N.’s role in creating a government in Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban. This would imply an American confession of failure. Instead of pursuing more ambitious goals for democracy in the region, the U.S. would offer security guarantees to Iran and Syria in exchange for coöperation. “We then turn to the Iraqi government,” Dodge went on, “and say, ‘You’ve got to reform your government, make it more inclusive, less corrupt, more coherent, less sectarian.’ So the Iraqi government is reconstituted within a multilateral framework where the E.U., the U.N., and the U.S. are all singing from the same hymnbook.”

What I don't understand is why Packer and Dodge don't draw the obvious conclusion -- it's not a good idea to do something incredibly costly like staying in Iraq for many additional years on the basis of a not very plausible plan that's unlikely to succeed. Instead, we get this:

For Dodge, the only reason to give this long-shot strategy a chance is the awfulness of the alternative. “I wouldn’t bet the house on it succeeding,” he said. “But I would bet my hopes and fears for Iraq on it.”

A costly, likely to fail strategy, however, isn't an alternative to failure. Most likely, your likely to fail non-plausible strategy is just going to fail. And if Dodge wouldn't "bet the house" on his plan succeeding, then what are we supposed to say to the National Guardsman whose family is going to lose its house if he's injured in Iraq and can't work anymore? If Dodge won't "bet the house" on his plan, then why should our troops risk their lives for it? I couldn't possibly imagine looking someone heading off to war in the eye and giving him this account of why his service is vital and necessary.

Share This

Comments (73)

One of the things making the plan implausible is that it includes things Bush would never do--America stepping out of the lead role, admitting defeat, and giving security guarantees to countries Bush hates. It would be nice if the fact that Bush was unable to sacrifice his ego to improve things in Iraq sufficed as an argument against sacrificing lives under his command to improve things in Iraq, but apparently it doesn't.

The starting point really is Bush taking full blame/responsibility (or at least SOME) for everything. And as that's not going to happen, I don't see the point of any of these discussions.

I don't know why people are incapable of understanding this principal: yes, a short-term spasm of violence is likely in Iraq after an American withdrawal. But that spasm is going to happen whether we withdraw in 6 months or a year or 3 or 5 or 10, and it's better for us to leave now because a) we can avoid more American costs and casualties and b) perhaps the Iraqi people will begin to forge a meaningful civilian social, economic and military infrastructure when they no longer have the crutch of American help, and when they don't have an occupying army making people absolutely fucking crazy.

I couldn't possibly imagine looking someone heading off to war in the eye and giving him this account of why his service is vital and necessary.

I gather that part of the point of an all volunteer force is that it decreases that likelihood that you (or, really, the political leaders) will ever have to have that conversation.

The reason Packer and Dodge cannot draw the obvious conclusion is that for them, the Iraq war is all about us. It isn't about the Iraqis, it is about the Americans having hopes and fears about Iraq and desperately trying to do something, anything to control the situation and make Iraq into what we Americans want it to be.

You would think a Brit would be less cavalier with the consequences of withdrawal. Re Iraq in the '20s. The "Get Out of Mesopotamia Now" coalition forced a retreat, by the time of the
second MacDonald term. This led to the Assyrian
massacre and the Golden Square quasi fascist
movement of the '30 which culminated in the Ghailani coup, the second Mesopotamian expedition
the subsequent 'farhud' of the remaining Jewsih citizens of Baghdad, which would be topped off by the death of Nuri Al Said in '58, and the rise of
the Baathists. This was at a time, when events in one corner of Near Asia were not directly tied to the rest. If this happens in the midst of the apogee of Saudi Wahhabism and Iranian adventurism
; the consequences are much greater.

I would submit that the look-a-19-year-old-in-the-eye test is not a totally ideal rubric for evaluating military policy. I'm not sure any 19-year old soldiers in the late 1850s would've been particularly eager to fight for the cause of, ahem, asserting the right of the Federal Government to contain the territorial expansion of slavery . . . especially at the cost of 600,000 American fatalities. Still, I generally think it is a good thing that the Union contested the civil war.

Joseph has it right. This is all about the world's top gun. To bring the Europeans, Iranians and Syrians in will mean that the US has lost. Bush will never admit that, even to himself. So the substitute is hype, macho talk (kick ass), massaged statistics and misleading talking points. He has a crew ready to fan out to say the same things over and over again. There is nothing so pathetic as the self-deluded. No brains or brawn needed,just plain ole bullshit.

One more thing: If this administration is one of the most incompetent in American history, as I believe, shouldn't the inauguration of pretty much any new president in 2009 dramatically improve our chances in Iraq? If the consequences of withdrawal are so fearsome, isn't there some small case for sticking around at least until we can see what capable leadership would do for the place?

The US can stay and bleed our resources to death or the US can leave and many more Iraqis may die in the on-going civil war.

Good money after bad or stay the course?

If the consequences of withdrawal are so fearsome, isn't there some small case for sticking around at least until we can see what capable leadership would do for the place?

No.

What capable leadership would do for the place has been crystal clear for years: withdraw entirely.

Freddie, here's the thing:

a short-term spasm of violence is likely in Iraq after an American withdrawal.

Packer and Dodge are arguing that we're not talking about a short-term spasm here, but a long-term collapse into failed-state territory, a la Afghanistan and Somalia. This seems like a very plausible argument: there is no reason to think the Shiites will ever decisively "defeat" the Sunnis on their own ground, no reason to think they will ever give the Sunnis a share of oil wealth, and no reason to think the Sunnis will ever stop fighting for such a share -- especially with the bloody shirt of the Shiite ethnic cleansing of Baghdad to wave. And there's no reason to think that Shiite movements themselves will hold together internally; not to mention there are already at least two major Shiite groups which will likely fight to the death for control once they finish killing or expelling all the Sunnis from their territory. Packer's argument is in part that we really are looking at the possibility of a no-man's-land of violent chaos which could last decades, like Somalia, but right in the middle of the Gulf, which, unlike Somalia, is economically and politically significant. It's silly to think that Iraq won't become a haven for and breeding ground of anti-Western terrorism in those circumstances, and it's obvious that the US will continue to be blamed by most everyone for creating the disaster (notably because it's true).

So what he's saying is that as colossal a mess as we've made, we are still the only thing standing between this, and a truly epic and dangerous mess. And that our only chance to avoid that epic mess is to stay for a good 10+ years, admit defeat, and hand the country over to the Iranians and Syrians to create security. This is obviously not a playbook for the Bush administration, which would never go for it; it's for a Democrat who wins in 2008.

Thing is, I still think it's impossible. The rest of the world, especially the Muslim world, will not tolerate US troops in Iraq for 10+ years; that will generate as much anti-US hatred and terrorism as leaving would. The Europeans and the UN can't be expected to make any serious effort to contain this kind of horror; they lack one of the chief US motivators, which is our feeling that we are responsible (and will be the targets). And, finally, the American public is never going to put up with this. America already wants out. The idea that they will be willing to keep 80,000 US troops in Iraq for 10 years at a minimum $6 billion a month -- forget it. This may be what Packer feels is required as American penance for having laid waste a country, but it is a penance which will not be forthcoming, whether or not it is wise. And no smart political party should put itself on the side of such a doomed strategy.

Yesterday by chance I saw a remarkable conversation between Tim Russert and Andrea Mitchell and David Gregory.

Mr. Russert, acting as the judge of the desirablity of any Iraq policy proposals, demanded that he would like to hear from the Democrats the details of any proposals to withdraw the troops from Iraq, and studies on the consequences of such a withdrawal. Mitchell and Gregory piled on, wondering how much genocide the war opponents were willing to accept.

To be fair, he did mention in passing that he wanted Bush to define success as well, but that was just an afterthought.

Would that be that Mr. Russert was so inisistent in March 2003 on the details of the proposals to send our kids to die in Iraq.

brooksfoe is correct, we are looking at the possibility of an intractable, spreading long-term disaster right in the middle of the ME oil patch. It's also right that there's no realistic possibility of the U.S. staying deployed in Iraq to stave this off.

A couple of silver linings to this. First, this catastrophe (and the electoral armageddon awaiting the war's cheerleaders) will make further ill-conceived U.S. military interventions less likely in the future - nothing like losing to school you in the hazards of thoughtless warmongering. Second, spiking oil prices will put some urgency behind efforts to wean ourselves off cheap oil.

I think in the middle-term, Iraq, however bad it is, will cease to be an american problem because the U.S. will not have the capacity to intervene any more, militarily, economically or morally. Someone else will have to solve it. Eventually the U.S. may do enough penance to be seen as something other than a rogue superpower, but that's a good way off.

If the argument is that we have a moral obligation to stay, then the odds of success don't really come into play.

If I impregnate my girlfriend, assuming she decides to take the baby to term, many would say I, as the father, have a moral obligation to care for the child. Even if I suspect that it is highly likely that it will bankrupt me, that does not eliminate my responsibility.

I think the only difference here is that the Administration is demanding that a small group (i.e. the military families) shoulder the burden of its responsibilities for us all. The fact that they are volunteers is convenient, but it's still, on the whole, wrong. If Bush really believes that staying in Iraq is important, he needs to start asking all of us to do something besides go shopping or put a magnet on our car.

Even if I suspect that it is highly likely that it will bankrupt me, that does not eliminate my responsibility.

A better comparison might be when my kid turns 21 and I realize that I've totally screwed up their life and therefore I must keep them locked in my house to fix it.

Iraq isn't our child, and at some point it has to take responsibility for it's own internal political problems. If a couple factions refuse to come to terms, I can't see how it could possibly be our responsibility to babysit them until they do.

Mr. Russert, acting as the judge of the desirablity of any Iraq policy proposals, demanded that he would like to hear from the Democrats the details of any proposals to withdraw the troops from Iraq, and studies on the consequences of such a withdrawal. Mitchell and Gregory piled on, wondering how much genocide the war opponents were willing to accept.

It's obvious that the debate is easily abused for political gain and that the administration doesn't have much of a plan - still I expect the Democrats in favor of withdrawal to formulate a feasible and comprehensive medium term policy towards Iraq and the already existing and anticipated humanitarian crisis and now would be the right time to do so. In fact a constructive post-withdrawal Iraq policy would easily translate into a political advantage since it could be contrasted favorably with Bush's insipid stay the course mantra. But only focusing on withdrawal just doesn't cut it.

If I impregnate my girlfriend, assuming she decides to take the baby to term, many would say I, as the father, have a moral obligation to care for the child.

No, your responsibility would be to pay child support until the child reached a certain age. You wouldn't have a responsibility to be in the kid's life. And unless you are really low-paid, child support isn't likely to bankrupt you. You would not be assessed a level of support that was far in excess of your ability to pay.

The U.S. probably has some responsibility to work toward resolving Iraq's problems and trying to prevent it from sliding into failed state status. This isn't the same as having an occupation army in place. We need to move ourselves from being like an abusive live-in father to being an absent father who pays child support.

First question: Why should I trust the predictions of people who have been wrong in every significant prediction they have made since the buildup to the war began 5 and a half years ago?

Secondly-- Iraq may become a failed state? May become? What world are you living in? There is no hope for this Iraq. The people who could have rebuilt the society are gone. The doctors, the lawyers, the teachers, the bureaucrats, the architects, the contractors, the pharmacists, all o the educated and skilled class, the people who actually make a civil society happen, are gone. They either were killed or fled. The infrastructure is gone. The roads are a shambles. The electricity situation is still deplorable. The hospitals are worse than under Saddam. Access to potable water is irregular and undependable. They don't have even the most basic tools necessary to make a society. And even if they did, the tools would get blown up.

I'm sorry that Iraq is a failed state. I'm sorry we fucked it up so bad. But we've fucked up a lot of places. I am so, so tired of it being told that the only Very Serious position is to stay. To all the people who are saying that we have a moral obligation to the Iraqi people, let me ask you this question: is there simply no limit to how far that responsibility extends? Is there simply no price that's too high for us to pay? What about their responsibility to us? Does there never come a time when we say enough is enough? How long should we stay? 10 years? 15? 25? It is absolutely baffling to me that people for whom no amount of money spent on social programs for the poor here is acceptable also think that there is no limit to the cost that should be spent on Iraq.

Yes, I am very sorry for the Iraqi people, just like I'm very sorry for all of the people who live in failed states, and just like I'm sorry for all of the people who's countries have been fucked up by, and are currently being fucked up by, US foreign policy. But we are not helping the Iraqi people now. If it was a question of making a sacrifice in helping them and paying a high price, then it would be a harder moral equation. But we aren't helping, and we're still paying an incalculable cost. And at that point I think we have to default to the very sensible position "Some of the people here are nuts, lets get the hell out of here."

Freddie, I take it that you are sincere, when you say you feel sorry for the Iraqis, but to be blunt it doesn't matter and nobody cares if the US feels sorry, if that's not backed up by actions trying to rectify the situation. And no, these actions are not equivalent to occupying Iraq - it's not: either we continue the occupation as is or we leave Iraq and ignore it for the next ten years, hoping that something less bad will evolve there eventually. You have listed the dismal state of Iraq yourself in great detail, it is a failed state: how on earth can you expect the Iraqis to get out of this mess without international involvement?

Freddie, one of the issues one has to consider is this: accepting for the sake of argument that when we pull out of Iraq the government will disintegrate, the Army and Police will crumble along the lines of their militia loyalties (taking the weapons we gave them), and a phase of slaughter and expulsion will ensue in which the Shiites kill or drive out the rest of the Sunnis in Baghdad, Sunnis retaliate with truck bombs and massacres, etc. This seems pretty likely. What will the international response be to this -- what will be the storyline? Something along the lines of "US lays Muslim country waste, leaves it to rot."

Additionally, the removal of US forces from Iraq will eliminate the US's ability to ride shotgun over terrorism developments inside the failed state.

So here's the question: does this development in the international narrative, in international and especially Muslim attitudes towards the US, increase or decrease the likelihood of a nuclear bomb being set off in Manhattan in the next 5 years? How does it compare to the option of leaving US troops in Iraq to ride shotgun over terrorism developments and perhaps half-heartedly pretend to be salvaging the country?

Personally, I still the US will do better by bugging out and saying it's sorry, and perhaps trying to address the problem at the level of refugees (and encouraging Syria and Iran to stabilize the place). But I think people like Packer make a fair argument about what the effect on world opinion and on US security will be of ending the Iraq war with a bug-out. After Vietnam, the Vietnamese forgot us; they were busy consolidating their country. It's not clear that the same will be true in Iraq after we leave.

Yeah, developing a plan (or just handing over a ton of money to people who know how to deal with such a crisis) for doing something to better the situation of the refugees would be a great start. Asking Bush what he is doing for the refugees and the 1/3 of Iraqi people without access to basic resources and services would also be great politics.

Note: 'paying child support' is not the individual analog for 'killing tens or hundreds of thousands of people'. The equivalent would be finding out that your girlfriend was pregnant by you, due to you raping her, and then locking her in the basement for regular beatings.

Bush will never concede that he has screwed up in any way. Concede failure or defeat? Double never.

Would Iraqui factions behave any better under the watchful eyes of Syrians and Iranians? I think not. After all, there are at least 2 major Shiite factions and numerous splinters. The Sunni are a mixture of tribes, foreign AQI and various indigenous religious radicals. Plus there is a very serious criminal element in play. Who is stupid enough, aside from the Bush administration, to get in the middle of this? There is no upside for Syria and Iran to participate in this fiasco.

Most Iraquis with means have picked up and moved. We need to get out as well. Iraq will be partitioned and it's the Bush administration's fault.

And it is shameful to bet the lives of thousands of our troops for a strategy that does not rise above a sucker's bet.

Actually, Nat, I think you're wrong. Iran and Syria have to get involved in this mess purely out of self-interest; Iran already is heavily involved, and that makes perfect sense. Syria ended the Lebanese civil war in the '80s for much the same reason Iran would end the Iraqi one: having a nightmarish violent hellhole on your border screws up your own country.

They'll be involved whether or not we try to broker a deal. The main upside to our trying to mediate how they get involved would be to try and effect a little bit of influence on the terms; we might get acceptance of a US diplomatic presence and financial aid, that kind of thing.

And if Dodge wouldn't "bet the house" on his plan succeeding, then what are we supposed to say to the National Guardsman whose family is going to lose its house if he's injured in Iraq and can't work anymore?

Unfortunately, the "poor National Guardsman" ability to finance his house if injured is unrelated to whether or not Iraq is a victory, a craven "cut 'n run" or something inbetween. Same if his ability to pay for his house is affected by injury in a training accident in Alabama, in a car crash or major medical problem on his civilian time, or if he throws his back out waterskiing.

Though banks and the politicians he writes if his house is threatened would be far more likely to cut him a break if he was maimed in Iraq than maimed driving to the store.

And, in the Lefty belief system, aren't National Guardsmen the worst sort of cowards and shirkers because Bush was one?

Unfortunately, the "poor National Guardsman" ability to finance his house if injured is unrelated to whether or not Iraq is a victory, a craven "cut 'n run" or something inbetween.

Actually, the number of U.S. military casualties is dependent on our military policy. Who would have guessed?

And, in the Lefty belief system, aren't National Guardsmen the worst sort of cowards and shirkers because Bush was one?

In the Righty belief system, is Bush's draft dodging and Guard duty dodging retroactively justified by ending the draft and sending the guard into combat decades later? Or just Quayle's?

[....]still I expect the Democrats in favor of withdrawal to formulate a feasible and comprehensive medium term policy towards Iraq and the already existing and anticipated humanitarian crisis and now would be the right time to do so.

Of course, in a rational world devoid of political games this is a laudable and rational expectation. However, for the GOP asslickers like Tim Russert to expect anything from the opponents of the war is quite another matter. All he is owed is a kick in the behind, if not the total and complete banishment from the airwaves, for uncuriously and blindly supporting the neocons and enabling the Bushies to send our kids to die in Iraq.

All he is owed is a kick in the behind

that certainly is also true

A subject that remains elusive in the Serious Iraq Debate is whether it is worth it to us as Americans (or as human beings) to essentially spend American lives and capital to reinvent a country that doesn't want to exist. If Iraqis generally want to either leave the Geographic Area Formerly Known As Iraq or live in separate Kurdish, Shiite, and Sunni states, then we are clearly failing these people by offering neither of their preferred outcomes. It's stupid, hopeless, and insulting. Let's be honest: We remain mired in GAFKAI because of where it happens to be, not because we are especially sympathetic to Iraqis. It's about the land, the oil, and the surrounding nations. And, of course, the egos and hubris of Bush and Cheney, and our collective inability to say "We, as a nation, were wrong." The logic that this war's supporters have used since the WMD rationale evaporated is "We have to fix what's broken" or "finish what we started" lest things get even worse or as bad as they probably will if we aren't there. Well, by this logic, we could literally invade any country on Earth for whatever fraudulent reason we want, and then, as long as things appeared grim in the aftermath of our invasion––a likelihood, dontcha think?––we could stay there forever in order to maintain peace, install democracy, build schools, plant trees, etc. All we have to do is launch an invasion, fuck things up, and then stay put under the auspices of making things right.
This is absolutely crazy.

This guy Dodge is obviously a complete and utter moron.

"Dodge’s approach would bring the maximum pressure to bear on Iraqi politicians by persuading the region and the world—Iraq’s neighbors, the European Union, the United Nations—to come into the Green Zone, not as tools of American policy but as equal partners in an effort to force a political deal, not unlike the U.N.’s role in creating a government in Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban. This would imply an American confession of failure. Instead of pursuing more ambitious goals for democracy in the region, the U.S. would offer security guarantees to Iran and Syria in exchange for coöperation"

In other words, he's presuming that George Bush and Dick Cheney have been impeached and are no longer in office, that all of the neocons are no longer influential anywhere in the White House, State Department and Pentagon, and that ALL of the Democratic candidates for President have AGREED that Iran is NOT a "nuclear threat" and that Iran does NOT need to give up uranium enrichment AND that Syria AND Iran should be given security guarantees CONCERNING AN ATTACK FROM ISRAEL.

Right? Those ARE the prerequisites for that plan working.

NOW do you want to reconsider the probability of that plan working?

The chances are slim, Chinamen's and none.

Which makes Dodge a complete idiot who's just handwaving and babbling about stuff that can't possibly occur given the realities of the people involved.

Now let's deal with the other stupid arguments.

1) We have a "moral obligation" to fix what we broke.

No, we don't, if it can't be fixed and the cost of any attempted fix exceeds the benefit of any possible outcome - which is the case. End of argument.

2) Brooksfoe: If Iran and Syria get involved, they will end up running the place, even given Iraqi nationalism. At this point, sectarian divisions appear to outweigh nationalism as a motivation for the violence, although whether that is either permanent or part of the majority of the population is unclear.

More importantly, the US will get ZERO influence on the results if Iran and Syria take the lead. If the US tries to take the lead, Iran and Syria will not participate, and nobody will listen to the US, because the US has ZERO credibility in the Middle East and especially in Iraq.

Not to mention that Iran and Syria have ZERO motivation to be involved because they won't get anything out of it but minor results - such as MAYBE the Kurds stop attacking Iran, or less refugees in each country. Those results are not sufficient to get Iran and Syria to participate more than they are doing now.

Iran and Syria - especially Iran - are ALREADY getting what they need out of the situation - influence with the majority of the Iraqi population. An alliance with Iraq against the US and Israel. Why should they put more effort into this just to bail the US's chestnuts out of the fire. What has the US done for them lately except threaten them with regime change?

So which Democrat do you see changing that? Obama or Clinton, who want the military option on the table for dealing with Iran's nuclear ENERGY program?

And then you say, we might get a diplomatic presence and the chance to pump MORE MONEY into Iraq - to a corrupt government? Oh, please...

"Additionally, the removal of US forces from Iraq will eliminate the US's ability to ride shotgun over terrorism developments inside the failed state."

The US HAS NO ABILITY to "ride shotgun" (whatever the hell that actually means) on "terrorism developments" inside Iraq NOW, let alone with a reduced presence, "Quick Reaction Teams", or anything else the US might do.

Your arguments boil down to exactly the same crap that Dodge's arguments do: betting the farm on situations that cannot happen, and results that are at best absolutely nebulous, and an end result that basically is irrelevant to the future of the US and the region in any event.

In other words, it's ALL speculation on your part to be paid for by the lives of US troops and Iraqi civilians and the dollars of the US taxpayer and the Iraqi economy.

It's ridiculous. It's a clear example of what I said in another thread: Make a mistake, then make MORE mistakes to cover up the FIRST mistake, then refuse to discuss the first mistake.

The ONLY thing the US needs to do in Iraq is get out as soon as physically possible. If the US THEN wants to ASSIST the Middle East in dealing with the results, we can do so - which is highly unlikely since the GOAL of the neocons and the Israelis IS disruption throughout the Arab and Persian world.

And the Democratic candidates are ALL perfectly willing to go along with that neocon disruption. So don't expect any electoral changes to mean anything in that regard.

No, we don't, if it can't be fixed and the cost of any attempted fix exceeds the benefit of any possible outcome - which is the case. End of argument.

Yes you do: the US is morally fully and alone culpable for the disaster they've created. What can be done to rectify it is another question, suffice it to say that there is a middle ground between "winning the war" and forgetting about the Iraqi people. But there is something the US can do now and that is to at the very least take care of the 2 million refugees that were lucky enough to make it out of the country. They have lost almost everything, live in horrible circumstances and Syria, Jordan and Iran and others are currently footing the bill and not very adequately so. Even Sweden is doing more to help these people than the US has. But I suspect you with your cost benefit mindset are just too cheap to even think about that.

I think the problem with the Packer, Dodge, and Huckabee argument is that it contains paradoxical assumptions.

It assumes that Iraq post-withdrawal will collapse into sectarian violence because of the deep and unmitigated hatred between Iraqis.

But if the assumption that the sects in Iraq hate each other enough for genocide to occur is true, then there is no reason to assume that we can do anything productive if we remain.

It seems to me that if the Iraqis are reasonable enough human beings to solve their political and sectarian problems, they can do so without the US. And if they aren't reasonable enough human beings to solve their political and sectarian problems, holding out false hope that a continued US occupation can accomplish something is nothing more than a cruel and murderous deception.

The pro-war forces can't have it both ways. We can't be on the verge of success in Iraq, but also just barely holding unreconciliable forces at bay from each other's throats.

Sorry, novakant-Huckabee, but moral responsibility doesn't work that way.

The moral responsibility for the aftermath of the Iraq war relies with George Bush and George Bush alone. He even relieved the Congress of that responsibility, by making sure that his enabling legislation wasn't a DoW but left the ultimate war decision to him.

When a successor administration takes over, it will not bear the moral responsibility for Bush's errors and can alter his policies at will and as the law allows.

The alternative is to assert that persons who opposed the war are still morally responsible for it, and such a claim would of course be absurd.

Democratic republics get to change their policies.

One more thing: If this administration is one of the most incompetent in American history, as I believe, shouldn't the inauguration of pretty much any new president in 2009 dramatically improve our chances in Iraq? If the consequences of withdrawal are so fearsome, isn't there some small case for sticking around at least until we can see what capable leadership would do for the place?

improve what 'chances'? chances of what? NO! no matter WHO is President of the United States by Jan 09, Iraq will still be in the midst of a civil war brought about by our invasion and occupation. no new President will change those facts. our chances of leaving Iraq will hopefully improve yes, but "leadership" on this issue is only represented, both before the war and currently, by the point of view that we have no business doing any such thing.

the consequences of withdrawal are not "fearsome", really. yeah, they're going to have it out. which happens in various countries pretty frequently. let them have it out, let's just not be in the middle. all we can do is offer major $$ to people who are willing to craft a solution and rebuild. no great display of "leadership" on this side of the Atlantic is going to help Iraq's civil war. this isn't some PR stunt. the damage has been done, there's no undoing it.

I think we also have to recognize the fact that the US involvement in even Dodge's plan is likely to work to the detriment of peace in Iraq, because we are very likely to not like the leadership that ultimately emerges there.

Picture the situation if we were attempting to use occupation to prevent "civil war" in Palestine. What that would probably mean in practice is that we would select politicians we define as "moderates" and would support their attempts to fashion a state. We would reject the involvement of, say, Hamas, because we would define them as "extremists" or "terrorists". The problem with this approach is that when the extremists have the support of the population, your choices are to allow them to be the government or keep forces in place to support your puppets forever.

In Iraq, it is pretty likely that the fastest way to a truly stable state that could provide security would be to acknowledge that the groups supplying most of the current violence would probably have to become the legitimate government of Iraq. The fact that they have successfully mobilized violence that our puppets can't manage on their own pretty much proves this, in a rough and Hobbesian way. But junking the existing state and security apparatus and rebuilding it using the militias, tribes, and insurgent groups as a basis would not be politically acceptable to the US. We can't just point at these groups and, because they don't favor our own interests, declare them anathema to the future Iraq. But that is exactly what we would do, and exactly why we would fail.

How about getting out of the business of trying to decide how other countries should set up their governments, and stop putting our thumb on the scale in favor of "moderates" with no real local constituency? So-called radical groups would look a lot less radical, and would hate us a lot less, if we announced that we no longer really care who runs Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Algeria, Turkey, etc., and will deal fairly with anyone who comes into possession of the government.

its all about Saving Face; period.

When a successor administration takes over, it will not bear the moral responsibility for Bush's errors and can alter his policies at will and as the law allows.

Rubbish. By your logic Germany was freed of all moral responsibility towards the Holocaust victims, the slave laborers, regime critics and whoever else suffered through the madness of those 12 years, when it elected elected a new government made up of unencumbered politicians in 1949 - a clean slate, the past is the past, let's move on. There were some who would have liked it this way (and indeed it was the founding myth of the GDR) but it just doesn't work that way with historical guilt.

Yea! ANOTHER PONY PLAN!

"By your logic Germany was freed of all moral responsibility towards the Holocaust victims, the slave laborers, regime critics and whoever else suffered through the madness of those 12 years..."

Well, no. My logic is that regime critics, slave laborers, and others who suffered under the Nazis did not share the moral responsibility of the Nazis. That seems pretty noncontroversial to me. As a result, Bush regime critics and war opponents will similarly not share responsibility for the war merely because they come into possession of the apparatus of the state. I don't accept a "deep pockets" theory of moral responsibility.

Dodge’s approach would bring the maximum pressure to bear on Iraqi politicians by persuading the region and the world—Iraq’s neighbors, the European Union, the United Nations—to come into the Green Zone, not as tools of American policy but as equal partners in an effort to force a political deal, not unlike the U.N.’s role in creating a government in Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban.

And what miracle politician is going to get this ball rolling?

Bush? Cheney? Rice?

They couldn't persuade anyone to piss on them if they were on fire.

You fail to see the difference between personal and collective moral responsibility. Of course vocal critics of the Nazi regime were not personally responsible for the crimes committed and anti-war protesters are not personally responsible for the illegal war they were against. Then you have those not actively opposed but critical and those who contributed to or enabled the crimes, but may or may not have wished them to be committed. In Germany it was those who were least involved and actively opposed to the regime that kept pushing the country to live up to its collective moral responsibility after the regime had collapsed and they certainly accepted the fact that they would be paying for other people's crimes with their taxes. Even several decades later, when nobody involved was still active in the German companies and Swiss banks that had profited from the these crimes, they forced them to finally pay reparations to the laborers these companies had exploited - and that was a good thing.

The US has ruined the lives and destroyed the infrastructure of millions of Iraqis and will have to pay the price for that. I'm surprised that this is even an issue among Democrats.

Brooksfoe: let me make it a little clearer: Iran and Syria have zero interest in 'coming into the Green Zone' and trusting the Bush administration. All they need to do is ask Reid and Pelosi how that power sharing thing is working out with this administration. I think we can all agree that Syrian and Iranian leaders are smarter than Democrats. (I am not joking...)

Syria and Iran are currently enjoying a situation with a very high bang for the buck, so to speak. War by proxy has its benefits.

We had our chance with Iran several years ago and blew it. Productive negotiations with them would require concessions impossible for this administration (and Israel) to contemplate. The Dodge proposal is just so many ponies.

Ultimately, Iraquis control Iraq's future, and I cannot see how it can end with anything short of sectarian partition and the US out of Iraq completely, sooner or later.

The Bush administration will stay the course until January, 2009. The Democratic Congress will be incapable of mustering the votes to change this. If a Republican takes over the White House I think we are guaranteed 4 more years of this stupidity. We might get lucky if a Democrat wins. And that is the ugly reality.

Let's face it. It's the Democrats who are taking the gamble. They think it is politically wise to let the war go on, bleeding support from Republicans, so Dems are sitting pretty in '08. If they push to withdraw the troops and things go badly there (and that is a strong possibility), then the Republicans will pound them with cut and run talking points. They have little to gain politically and no children of their own to lose there, so they will just ride it out. I have to admit that it is the best bet for them politically, just as it was Hillary Clinton's best bet to support the war at the outset, proven by the fact that she is the frontrunner in the primary. We can talk about what is right, moral, decent and honest all we want, but if it doesn't translate into votes, these politicians aren't buying.

Hey, if you want to set up some sort of international claims tribunal to allow individual Iraqis who have lost property or loved ones to the war to press claims for damages for events up to the day of withdrawal, that's one thing.

But after the day of withdrawal, our further obligations for continuing events in Iraq would be nil.

To press your Nazi analogy further, essentially Dodge is saying that the successor West German regime should have restarted the war, to live up to the moral responsibility the Nazis had incurred to their Hungarian, Romanian, and Bulgarian allies.

Just a thought, but I find it very hard to believe that Iran and Syria would welcome an Iraq that had become little more than a geographical expression while warlords and others fought for control. Those warlords would be trying to make all sorts of alliances (some of them might even be anti-Iranian or -Syrian).
Once the U.S. leaves Iraq, it will be in the interest of every country in the Middle East that Iraq be calmed down. Iran and Turkey are worried about Kurdistan; the Sunnis are worried about Iran; the Shiites about Saudia Arabia (not a huge population, but a lot of financial power).
None of them trust the others and all would most likely see some sort of independent Iraq as the least dangerous to themselves.
If the UN should become involved in humanitarian and repatriation efforts there is no reason the US shouldn't provide funding.

The political class is now brain dead. They stand solidly on the ground unaware that the earth has shifted beneath their feet. Iraq is only part of the story and not the biggest part.

The credit system and thus the financial system are freezing up. Sub prime mortgages are only the tip of the iceberg. Look at the chart on this page. this is the chart of asset backed commercial paper. Most don't know what asset backed commercial paper is, but anyone with any economic acumen will notice that this chart spells Panic.
http://bp3.blogger.com/_nSTO-vZpSgc/RuOYR1gHhXI/AAAAAAAABSk/zS2G8MtfVjg/s1600-h/09_06_07+asset+backed+cp.gif

Like the blithe assumptions that the cost of 5, 10 or 20 more years in Iraq are not worthy of discussion the credit crisis is thought to be well contained. That the Fed will save us. That ponies are on the way. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are in Black Swan territory now.

The commenters here invoking the idea of moral responsibility as a case for occupation seem to assume that the United States is a neutral arbiter, disinterstedly seeking the best result for Iraq, rather than an interested party, seeking to maximize the best results qua the United States govt. Same commenters also seem to assume that the United States plays a policing role, rather than an offensive one, aimed at destroying certain elements within Iraq, with predictable collateral casualties. I don't think either assumption survives scrutiny.

The standards of moral responsibility in the case of invasion are actually fairly simple, and applicable to all aggressors: 1) cease aggression; 2) abide by the will of the victims; 3) pay reparations in compensation for property lost and misery inflicted. Of course, in order to uphold such standards it'd first be necessary to acknowledge the fact of aggression, something I think many of the liberals here are unprepared to do.

Sorry, novakant-Huckabee, but moral responsibility doesn't work that way.

The moral responsibility for the aftermath of the Iraq war relies with George Bush and George Bush alone. He even relieved the Congress of that responsibility, by making sure that his enabling legislation wasn't a DoW but left the ultimate war decision to him.

George Bush was re-elected by a majority in 2004, after it was clear that the Iraq war was dishonestly and disastrously prosecuted. From that point on the citizens of the United States bear full responsibility for Iraq. Period.

this was a particularly moving post, and a really perfect closing paragraph. kudos, m.y.

Like I said Mark, it's all about us. You just have to look through the article to see how thick it is with folks that talk about how America needs to "control" the situation, and how they are afraid that we might not get the outcome that "we want."

Also note this lovely bit:

While serving on the assessment team, Kilcullen drew up a list of core American interests in Iraq, which he later gave to senior officials at the White House and the State Department. In order of priority, the list contained the following items: maintain the flow of oil and gas in the region; prevent the establishment of an Al Qaeda safe haven in Iraq; contain Iranian influence; prevent a regional war; prevent a humanitarian catastrophe on the scale of Rwanda; and restore American credibility in the region and in the world (which Kilcullen called "the master interest," and which doing all the others would go a long way toward achieving). Some interests, he acknowledged to me, might be incompatible: for example, undermining both Sunni-led Al Qaeda and Shiite Iran.

So. Top priority is to keep the oil and gas flowing. This comes before preventing an al Qaeda safe haven. And preventing Iranian influence? That comes before preventing a regional war. The "preventing humanitarian catastrophe?" That stuff that includes actually helping the Iraqis? Near the bottom of the list.

Again, for these people, none of this is about the Iraqis. It is about them (and by extension, us).

What they are really arguing for is a Final Solution style occupation where our troops are forced through legal shenanigans and presidential decrees to stay there killing anyone who acts out against them. This gives time for intergroup tit for tat at an expanding rate until enough momentum develops for an Armenia style genocide plus diaspora. In the meantime, it becomes a political football for lame politicians in the US and a distraction for tedious and obsequious pundits and bloviating Irish and German American tv hosts.

"that is to at the very least take care of the 2 million refugees that were lucky enough to make it out of the country. They have lost almost everything, live in horrible circumstances and Syria, Jordan and Iran and others are currently footing the bill and not very adequately so. Even Sweden is doing more to help these people than the US has. But I suspect you with your cost benefit mindset are just too cheap to even think about that."

Wrong. I have no problem with the US sending a few billion bucks TO SYRIA and elsewhere to help with the refugee crisis.

Email me when this happens.

Get serious. Bush wants to overthrow Syria. Do you think he gives a damn about Iraqi refugees there. He wants to make MORE refugees in Syria, Iran and Lebanon!

It's not even clear that the US COULD offer humanitarian assistance at this point! It would be "tainted" by the US war. Anybody accepting it inside Iraq would probably get killed. Those outside Iraq - how could they get it? Is Bush going to send aid to Syria? Iran? Jordan?

That subtopic, however, has zero to do with whether we need to keep US troops in Iraq or anywhere NEAR Iraq for any reason at all, or do anything OTHER than offer US humanitarian assistance.

It is irrelevant whether we have a "moral duty" to fix what we broke. The fact is, we cannot. Even aiding the refugees we created will not change what is happening in Iraq. Many of those people will not be able to return to Iraq at all, or not for years or decades until the society stabilizes in some manner. We can set them up with assistance, sure, but they're still broken. And they are but a fraction of the damage done.

The REST of the damage can NOT be fixed.

You want to hand over the $140 billion we plan on spending for this war over the next 12 months to the Iraqis? Feel free. That's as close to fixing this as we can ever get. Do it for the next four years and at least in dollars and cents, we might approach "fixing" it.

Of course, none of that money would end up anywhere but in somebody's pocket - just as none of it in actuality for the last four years ever ended up but in somebody's pocket - or pissed away in bombs and bullets that killed at least 300,000 Iraqi civilians.

You want to FIX THAT? HOW? By assisting two million refugees?

southpaw you're civil war analogy total crap.

"3) pay reparations in compensation for property lost and misery inflicted."

That would be fine by me, but how do you get the money into the hands of the Iraqis who actually suffered?

Hand it to the Iraqi government? I think NOT!

Hand it to NGOs NOT associated with the US in any way? Maybe. Give it to the UN and let them do it.

I got no problem with taking a quarter of the US military budget for the next four or five years and giving it to the UN to spend on Iraq reconstruction, rather than on the next war in Iran.

Except of course, we'd need to spend half of THAT money on making sure it actually got there - DIRECTLY to the people.

And THAT is the problem with all notions of "humanitarian assistance" or "reconstruction." If the "assistance" doesn't go DIRECTLY to the people, it will be stolen by somebody and the people will get no assistance.

Look at New Orleans. We STILL have thousands of people in FEMA concentration camps with no place to go! Did the emergency money help THEM?

Hell, look at everything the US has done in Iraq to date pertaining to "reconstruction". It's been an unmitigated failure - and not merely because of the insurgency or the sectarian violence. It was corruption through and through - on the part of the Iraqis, on the part of the US contractors, on the part of just about everybody who touched the money.

So how do we do this in a Third World place like Iraq? Anybody got a good example where this has actually WORKED?

If not, it's just ruminant evacuation.

Spend the money somewhere where it will be useful.

improve what 'chances'? chances of what? NO!

Chances of saving some Iraqi lives, I suppose.

southpaw you're civil war analogy total crap.

cal1942 you're critique devastating

But after the day of withdrawal, our further obligations for continuing events in Iraq would be nil.

I'd be interested to know if this is the majority opinion among Democrats.

Wrong. I have no problem with the US sending a few billion bucks TO SYRIA and elsewhere to help with the refugee crisis.

Um...you have a problem with US aid in a post-withdrawal Iraq because the government would be corrupt, but you have no problem sending that money to Syria? Wha?

All American citizens share some responsibility for this Iraqi mess. We are responsible for what our government does. It's a democracy; you don't get a get-out-of-guilt-free card, not in the eyes of the world. It would be both politically wise and morally correct for the US to assume in the aftermath of disaster in Iraq a responsibility for remedying some of the damage it caused.

One lesson of the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza is that a unilateral withdrawal followed by demonization of the people who take over is worse than a negotiated withdrawal, if such can be arranged. I see no reason other than wounded pride and pique why the US could not reach accommodations with all of the major forces in Iraq as part of a US withdrawal, as well as with Iran and Syria. We have plenty to bargain with, notably which faction gets the stuff we leave behind. Note that in Saigon in '75 we had no cards to play with; the new guys were the unified North Vietnamese. In Iraq, we can sit at a table and negotiate with other players.

Chris Ford wrote, "And, in the Lefty belief system, aren't National Guardsmen the worst sort of cowards and shirkers because Bush was one?"

No, because the National Guard of Bush's era and the National Guard of our era are hardly the same institution.

novakant wrote, "The US has ruined the lives and destroyed the infrastructure of millions of Iraqis and will have to pay the price for that. I'm surprised that this is even an issue among Democrats."

But we _haven't_ paid such a price in the past, so what makes you think we'd be willing to pay it in the future?

We destroyed Nicaragua's economy through terrorism and military actions. Have you been pressing your congressional representatives to pay reparations?

brooksfoe wrote, "It would be both politically wise and morally correct for the US to assume in the aftermath of disaster in Iraq a responsibility for remedying some of the damage it caused."

But you're assuming that the US would operate with a reasonable amount of good faith in such a circumstance. I don't see any evidence from the history of great powers that this would likely be the case.

Talk of moral responsibility is nothing but a political weapon. It's the fetus of Iraq.

One of the many used to divide and manipulate us. While we have any reason left, if we ever had any to begin with, remember this:

"Kilcullen drew up a list of core American interests in Iraq, which he later gave to senior officials at the White House and the State Department. In order of priority, the list contained the following items: maintain the flow of oil and gas in the region; prevent the establishment of an Al Qaeda safe haven in Iraq; contain Iranian influence; prevent a regional war; prevent a humanitarian catastrophe on the scale of Rwanda; and restore American credibility in the region and in the world..."

That's all you need to remember right there.

I'll ask General Electric how they "feel" about their moral responsibility for the war in Iraq next time I see "them"...

Pooleside, the politics of abortion do not provide a good metaphor for your point of view.

Everyone in this debate is making a claim about moral responsibility. Some of us think we have a moral responsibility to stay in order to protect Iraqis and mediate a better outcome than would result from withdrawal. Others think we have a moral responsibility to leave in order to protect our own countrymen and end a period of criminal interference in another nation's affairs.

Making this into a choice versus life debate would, I think, tend to make your case less persuasive.

"Everybody in this debate is making a claim about moral responsibility..."

My claim is that most of us have as much moral responsibility for Iraq as we have for having been born.

When America goes to war, it isn't our choice. It hasn't been since the beginning.

Oh, gotta go to work now, but my point of bringing in the abortion issue is exactly what I meant to do. The locus of the morality of abortion is within the individual, not in society. In my opinion.

If you agree with that, you may agree that we have the choice to be a conscientious objector or to fight in a war, but that actions of the subset of people who can and do decide the policies of this country have no moral implications for us personally.

Pooleside,

Apologies if I misunderstood your first post. I've seen the point you make in your 7:26 post fairly frequently, and while I agree with the premise . . . I don't really understand what it has to do with anything. Of course, no one holds you personally responsible for the war; i doubt anyone would hold you personally responsible for a withdrawal either.

For most of us, our personal responsibility for the policies of the US government is too minimal to be worth talking about. We don't make the ultimate decision. But it doesn't follow that we should therefore feel entitled to advocate amoral or immoral policies.

The United States as a whole, ultimately, is ultimately judged on the morality of its actions--a fact which provides many powerful arguments for the left and the right. We care about the choices the US makes, and the morality of the nation as a whole, I think, for reasons other than our own personal liability. And each choice counts. If withdrawal is morally wrong, then pursuing a withdrawal will be wrong regardless of the moral culpability of George Bush for policies which preceded it.

Why make this argument? It's because I think it's a mistake to make any decisions regarding Iraq based on moral considerations. It's because I believe that arguments about moral responsibility for this occupation are irrelevant. You may as well argue about who is responsible for Wounded Knee.

We all wash in the blood of the murdered. We get used to it.

That being said, perhaps we can debate the real issues involved- do our "national interests" require our continued occupation of Iraq? If so, are we being well served by those in power? If we are not being well served, who might do better?

Or, if we would like to change what is considered to be in our "national interests", how best can we do that? Do any of the candidates for office offer us this sort of change?

"If withdrawal is wrong..." There is no possibility that we can know the answer to this. It is like the question of when human life begins. It can never be definitely decided, and can be used to keep us "occupied".

What I'm suggesting, I guess, is that moral considerations are not divisible from a proper understanding of our national interest. The US is unusual in this regard because it was founded on a set of ideas about the rights all people hold and the way they should be governed. I'd submit that it is in our national interest to uphold some conception of those ideas (though we'll always squabble about what that conception should be).

I'll allow that it's certainly reasonable to disagree with me.

I'm enjoying the dialogue.

What bothers me about moral considerations is that they are often evoked to excuse the most immoral of acts.

Especially lately.

I would suggest that the moral thing for us to do would be to remove our troops from Iraq as rapidly as possible, while making reparations to the Iraqi people. Perhaps if we were sincere in our desire to set them aright again, rather than pursuing our stated goals (listed above), we would stand a better chance of actually, you know, succeeding in a moral sense.

But the policies of this nation are not now being set by moral considerations (if they ever have been- which is a different argument). We could never, as a nation, do what I would consider to be the morally correct thing with regard to Iraq. I mean, are we capable of sending our war criminals up for trial?

Our conceptions of the moralities obviously differ. I think the US has a responsibility to see an end to the widespread violence before we leave. I know that isn't a popular opinion, so I won't belabor it. The larger point, I think, is that our disagreement doesn't invalidate the use of moral considerations in political debate. Neither of us, most likely, will see our preferred outcome here. But if we abandon the project of advocating our ideals in the public discourse, we'll set the policy debate adrift in lots of dangerous ways.

Today, both your moral vision and hard-headed realism (I'll admit it) dictate a hasty withdrawal from Iraq.

Tomorrow, they may not be in such close agreement. You or I might wish to advocate that the US take a stand for interests larger than its own, sacrificing its own interests to some extent e.g. human freedom or international justice or saving lives or what have you.

Without moral considerations, you're right, we'd be crazy to ever bring our war criminals to justice.

The actual truth of 'you break it, you bought it' is "You break it, you submit to the policy of the store.' i.e., the desire of the person you've wronged.
The policy is not determined by the breaker.

But we haven't paid such a price in the past, so what makes you think we'd be willing to pay it in the future?

That's true and as this thread indicates, there is a possibility that after withdrawal the US will just turn its back on Iraq as they have done on occasion in the past. All I'm saying is that this would be wrong, counterproductive in the long term and that the US will pay a price either way, a financial price or an even more ruined international reputation.

But you're assuming that the US would operate with a reasonable amount of good faith in such a circumstance. I don't see any evidence from the history of great powers that this would likely be the case.

I am very skeptical about US hegemony and my general misgivings about US foreign policy are well sourced in history. But I also do acknowledge that on occasion the US was able to have a positive influence on parts of the world, especially when neither the freedom-fighter winguts, nor cynical "realpolitik" people like Kissinger were in charge of policy. Wouldn't it be great if a Democratic president could revive this tradition? I have no illusions but it's n ot impossible either.

Talk of moral responsibility is nothing but a political weapon. It's the fetus of Iraq.

One of the many used to divide and manipulate us.

See, I've been against this war since it was announced in August 2002. I'm a center-left European, which puts me well to the left on the US political matrix. I'm also a human rights zealot. So I'm not advancing my arguments with any sinister motives, but rather because it simply breaks my heart if the people I tend to agree with most in the US suddenly go all Pat Buchanan and Kissinger on me.