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DCPS's Vanishing Students

19 Sep 2007 06:25 pm

cardozo.jpg

Catherine's link to Washingtonian's profile of DC's new and much-hyped schools chancellor Michelle Rhee reminded me that I only recently learned about one of the odder issues with the DC school system -- what you could only call undercrowding of the schools.

Catty-corner from our house, for example, is Cardozo High School (home, hilariously, of the Clerks) and it's extremely imposing multi-story building. The school grounds as a whole are enormous, and the building itself is several standard city blocks. I'd lived in its shadow for years, but only last week learned that the school only has 749 students. And that's very typical. The student population served by DC public schools is way down from its peak, so the system's oldish buildings are too big for their current populations. This, in turn, makes the system's facilities inefficient to maintain and adds another problem onto an already very troubled system.

Indeed, despite Rhee's popularity and good press coverage, one has to wonder on some level if DCPS isn't in a death spiral. The basic demographic trends in the city point in the direction of declining public school enrollment, and the system is legendarily crappy which has led to burgeoning interest in charter schools and very rapid declines in enrollment which, as it leads to school closures, can open up more facilities to be used for charters. You could easily imagine the city transitioning to an Andrei Cherny-style model where all the schools are charter schools.

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Comments (108)

Aren't you leaving out a pretty big contributer to this 'undercrowding': the dropout rate?

On the bright side, this should mean that the teachers get the small class sizes their union usually harps on as the solution to their schools' shitty state. Let's see if that helps DeShawn learn.

Aren't you leaving out a pretty big contributer to this 'undercrowding': the dropout rate?

On the bright side, this should mean that the teachers get the small class sizes their union usually harps on as the solution to their schools' shitty state. Let's see if that helps DeShawn learn.

I really wonder what it's to be so incredibly predictable. I think I'll start a game where I see how closely I can predict Fred's posts. Ten letters of? Maybe seven?

I can't wait for Steve Sailer. "It's a rather predictable function of black DNA, school undercrowding... multiculturalism killed the American family."

Quick predict Chris Ford it is a dc post after all-

DC is becoming whiter, but DC's white women have extremely low fertility, barely half that in the most liberal, low fertility states like Massachusetts.

The same thing is going on in LA. The LAUSD is in the midst of a $24 billion school building frenzy triggered by the huge Hispanic baby boom in California that followed the 1986 illegal immigrant amnesty as amnestied men brought their women up from Mexico. This caused huge overcrowding, year-round calendars, and the like in LA public schools for the last 15 years. But the amnesty baby boom is starting to reach the age where the kids drop out of high school now in huge numbers, and there aren't enough kids in the lower grades to justify the giant new high schools.

Illegal immigrants from south of the border are now mostly avoiding LA because the standard of living (low average wages - high cost of living) is so low.

Most of the new immigrants in my part of LA look like the cast of "Eastern Promises" -- Russians, Armenians, Turks, Georgians, Persian Muslims, Persian Jews, Lebanese Christians, etc. They can make a lot of money in small business (and in organized crime, if they choose to go in that direction), and they don't mind crowding an extended family with 3 to 5 paychecks into one suburban house. So, they can outbid in the housing market typical American nuclear families with only two paychecks.

Freddie:

You can't predict what I'm going to say because you know many facts about much of anything. You just know what you hate.

same thing is going on in san francisco.

i assume it is somehow the same in DC, but a huge problem in san francisco is that schools get money on a per student basis and as enrollment declines, so does the money the state gives the district. but schools are mostly fixed cost, so the decline in variable costs due to fewer students is way less than the decline in state money. the not surprising result is that the school district's funding (like most, always close to being not enough as is) is insufficient.

San Francisco is of course a negative poster child for my theory of "Affordable Family Formation." It's surrounded by water and mountains so there's little land for housing, so housing prices are extremely high, so people don't have children there very much. So, it's turning into a theme park for childless adults, which, of course, means its politics are extremely liberal.

i don't comment here much so i'm less familiar with mr. sailer's style but i must say he uses oddly derogatory language. and i'm not real sure how one can determine who is more worthy of a suburban household.

i was also surprised by his description of the cast of Eastern Promises. i must have walked into the wrong theater last night. i saw lots of actors playing russians, one ukrainian and brits. no armenians, persians (jewish or muslim), turks or any of the others he lists. i would've thought i'd have noticed the darker complexions most of those nationalities tend to have amongst the otherwise lily-white cast.

maybe it's just easier to lump them all together. maybe mr. sailer could save some time and just use "Them."

DC is getting whiter, but the people with kids tend to be isolated in Ward 3 (extreme Northwest DC) and although a sizable number send their kids to the neighborhood elementary schools, there is a pretty big opt out by middle and high school.

A lot of us opt for the extraordinarily expensive private schools because of lack of faith in the school system here. It is unfortunate, but it is hard to deal with a school system that literally cannot tell you how many teachers or employees it has and where the physical plants of the schools have been allowed to deteriorate to a shocking degree.

I hope the new mayor and chancellor can make strides, but it is a very difficult battle.

Right, white liberal parents don't apply their anti-racist theories to their own children, thank God. When puberty is looming and young Madison can't go to the local elementary school in Georgetown anymore, it's time for white flight to the suburbs or the private schools!

Sailer professes expertise in so many areas of human social (or anti-social) behavior that you might be tempted to say his knowledge in any subject is equal to his knowledge in any other subject.

Actually, I guess I'd agree with that assessment :)

No wonder all those hollowed out schools and districts are deathly afraid of vouchers. If everyone who can afford to refuses to send their kids to a school, the administrators accurately assume that those with children in the school would, given a voucher, make the same choice. The school district would be irretrievably lost, many campuses consolidated and real estate sold off.

I get their self interest, but why do others oppose the voucher system (i.e., the funds to opt out and choose among a menu of other schools)?

One of the good things about Matt's blog is that he talks about the mundane realities of real estate as if it has at least some vague relation to the higher world of public policy discourse. In contrast, the vast majority of pundits have erected a mental Chinese Wall between their daily reality such as choosing a neighborhood to live in and a school to send their kids to, decision-making where race plays a huge role, and their professional thinking about the Big Issues such as race, where they ignore how they think about their own families.

I think Klein's tiny left nut made it clear that folks like him are opting for "extraordinarily expensive" private schools due to their concerns about the administration and physical plant of the D.C. public schools, not because of their racial composition.

Of course he's full of crap though.

On a more serious note, the obvious implication for public policy here is school consolidation (and teacher consolidation), right? Sell off the other property to renovate the schools you're going to use, etc.

Fred, at the risk of taking you seriously, for your first comment to make any sense you'd need an increasing drop-out rate that more than compensated for the increase in the number of children in the DC area during this time, not just a high drop-out rate.

But I'm sure you knew that, and the drop-out comment was made ironically, because you then accused klein's left nut of being the actual racist.

I believe that Minneapolis during the 1990s took exactly the route Matt recommends (close some schools in order to devote more resources to the rest), with the result that Minneapolis public schools, or at least some of them, remained notably better than other large urban school systems-- people with options more often chose to send or keep their kids there, rather than relocating or shelling out for private schools. (That "result" is anecdotal-- comes from having lived in Minnesota from 2000-07.)

IIRC Minneapolis could do so only because all its school board members were elected at-large; as one of them said last year when she retired, the number and kind of school closings required to move resources around in the way Matt recommends would have been politically impossible had each school board member represented a district (as is the case in some other big city systems).

Fred,

You must have been looking in the mirror and thinking of me.

The school my son attends has a sizable number of African American and Hispanic kids, although it clearly is majority white and highly affluent. If my son were more of a self-starter and a different kind of kid I might have even tried for the local high school (Wilson). I have friends who have made this choice with success. But shockingly, I made my decision based on what I thought best for him and I am lucky enough to be able to afford it.

The voucher approach is a pipe dream. The private schools here run $26,000 a year. Charter schools are not a panacea by any means and indeed can be the source of both quackery and corruption - we have had both here.

This is an extremely difficult issue to deal with -- there are intense problems associated with poverty, crime, corruption, ill-equipped parents -- you name it, we've got it. I am a product of public schools and support them wholeheartedly. It is extremely unfortunate that I don't feel comfortable with the schools here. It's not really cause for crowing among the white sheet crowd.

So when the students all go away, what can be done with the Cardozo building? It's actually an impressive looking building.

Is that a picture of the school? It doesn't look all that big to me. Where is the student parking lot? The baseball diamond? Tennis courts? The Driver's Ed course? No wonder it only has 700 kids, there's nothing for them to do but sit in the crumbling lead-painted asbestos filled building. The football team gets 30 yds to practice on, the band gets 30 yds, and the rest of the track and field is apparently used to park cars. I wouldn't send my kids to a school like that.

I am a product of public schools and support them wholeheartedly.

Except when it comes to my own children, then I can't because {fill in excuse}.

Matt,

I mentioned the high dropout rate as "a" contributer, not "the" contributer to the declining school population. I never wrote that it was the sole cause; I just pointed out it's one that MY neglected to mention.

Left Nut,

Relax, you made the right choice. Had you acted consistently with your liberal views, like my parents did when they sent me to nearly all-black schools, your kid might grow up sharing my views instead of yours. You wouldn't want that.

Is that a picture of the school? It doesn't look all that big to me. Where is the student parking lot? The baseball diamond? Tennis courts? The Driver's Ed course?

ha ha. you don't live in a city, do you? drivers' ed driving courses!!!

Steve: where are the Turks living? 'cause I live in Little Armenia, and nothing brings those guys together like hating Turks. Thing being, I never actually see any Turks, so the whole effect is a little comical.

Just Karl,

The kids don't drive to school here in the city. They walk, take the bus or ride the subway. It's one of the best parts about raising kids in the city. They don't need to drive cars while teens. As someone who remembers well his time as a suburban teen, this is a good thing.

Re: the public schools - I at least fork over some pretty serious local tax money here in DC to help support them. Probably as much as they pay you at the Domino's in a year.

Cardozo is not only a huge, beautiful old building, it also sits on some prime real estate smack dab in the center of the revitalized U Street corridor, right on the point where flat DC rapidly climbs a steep hill, so the views at the top of the incline offer amazing 180-degree panoramas of all the monuments ... a developer's wet dream. Those folks would love school consolidation if that freed up this land for development.

As for DC schools, I have been here since the mid-80's and the schools have improved, but not by much. I hope Rhee succeeds and it lures some of the professionals' kids back (both white and black - both sides send their kids to private schools once they make dough) ... only then will things snowball and get better.

PS: Those on this discussion making stupid racial remarks and judgments obviously don't live in DC, and probably never lived in a diverse town - all of us who live in DC know we are in it together.

Here in Ohio, most charter schools aren't performing too well. Of 330 charter schools, only 24 were identified (by the state) as "excellent" or "effective," according to a Cleveland Plain Dealer article, the link to which I just lost -- sue me, I'm an old lady and not all that computer literate. The article also said the HALF of the state's schools in "academic emergency" (the lowest rating) are charters.

There have also been all sorts of, er "financial irregularites" among the charters. The attorney general is suing some of them (another lost link -- you whippersnappers can do the googling).

So, no, charter schools are not panaceas. Doesn't Matt's girlfriend work for an outfit that promotes charters?


I haven't been inside Cardozo, but if it's an old building, it probably means that it has regular classrooms with walls and doors connected by hallways. It would be a shame to abandon a building like that in a consolidation. Other schools like Shaw Junior High were designed with an open floor plan. There are just clusters of desks in different sections of each floor that form each "classroom." Teachers have tried to create some more private spaces by using movable blackboards and bulletin boards to create makeshift walls, but it's really a poor environment and I've heard young teaching applicants try to make sure they get schools with actual classrooms.

However, I can imagine that the older schools are ones with nicer buildings in choicer locations and thus the most valuable to developers during any real estate sell-off that might occur.

The Driver's Ed course?

Is that a joke? Schools have driving courses that students can drive in during driver's ed classes? You have to be kidding me.

I'm surprised no one complained about the browning grass field, but then, it doesn't look like it's in any worse condition than the National Mall.

I at least fork over some pretty serious local tax money here in DC to help support them

No doubt you sleep well at night knowing you've done your civic duty without actually having to get involved. Just like the Clintons, you "wholeheartedly" support public schools by paying your taxes. Gee whiz, sorry that I'm not impressed. I don't mean to take it out on you, Left Nut, but it's really all too common a dodge by the very parents who could greatly help to improve the public system if they would just get involved and actually support it with their own kids. You claim to be affluent. It's a free country. You can live in whichever state/city/district has acceptable public schools for your children. You choose not to, therefore it must not be very important to you. So please, spare us the platitudes.

Schools have driving courses that students can drive in during driver's ed classes?

Yeah, you didn't have that? We had 10 Chrysler K cars on our course. The best part was the front passenger seat had an extra brake pedal. The 10 best drivers got to be car "leaders" and they would ride shotgun with the other 3 student drivers assigned to each car. Should anyone get out of control the leader was expected to keep the car from running off the course.

I choose to live in the city, which I support with my taxes, (9.5% of income here and about $8,000 in property taxes) however trivial that may seem. I don't claim I need a tax cut or bitch about all the unworthy people laying claim to that which I deem my own. If an additional 10% of my income would turn the DC public schools into a model system, I would do it in a heart beat.

I don't clog the roads, we own one car, I often walk to work, my spouse takes the subway, my kid is a mile from his school. We live a block from the best book store in the country. I work for causes I believe in, and though I'm well paid and feel fortunate for that, I bill at half the rate or less of my corporate counterparts.

In short I try and be a decent citizen -- but my kid is not a prop or a pose. I'll do what's best for him while trying not to short change others.

the system is legendarily crappy

My kids go to a DC elementary school which is not crappy. Reading this sort of thing from people who don't have experience with the schools pisses me off. Frankly, it's part of the problem.

Senescent asks:

"Steve: where are the Turks living?"

There's a Turkish nightclub on Ventura in the East San Fernando Valley. Weekends are Turk nights, while other ethnic groups each have their own weekday nights, so, clearly, there aren't many Turks here. (But don't tell the Armenians about it!)

What we're getting in the East Valley now are lots of immigrants from this huge swatch of land that doesn't have a name, from Russia in the north down to Yemen in the south -- Caucasian men with deep voices is about the best I can come up with as a common denominator.

I flirt with favoring school choice but I find the prospect of a Dutch outcome - a majority of American kids attending small, publically-funded, religiously-based schools - slightly depressing.

A plurality of families choosing large public high schools (although I see no reason to think any school should be larger than 749 students) befits the American character: extraverted, diverse, competitive.

I don't know that that would happen though. Maybe almost everyone would retreat to their denominational ghettos.

PS Someone should investigate the founders of those Hebrew charter schools in Florida (which according to NPR the other day were recent Israeli immigrants). A consensus on publically-funded religiously-based schools is one thing. Getting taxpayers to fund your religiously-based school under the radar is something else. If these people are ex-settlers who spent recent decades stoking sectarian anger at American taxpayer expense in the West Bank I'll be especially ticked.

Let me unveil my one-point plan for how to keep your kids from disliking blacks and Hispanics:

1. Don't let your children get beaten up by underclass minorities.

Do what wealthy liberals do with their own offspring: insulate! Move to an expensive suburb where the schools have good students, or finagle your children into a magnet program, or homeschool them, or pay for private schooling. Do what it takes so that the minorities they come in contact with are predominantly middle class.

In 1977, when Jimmy and Rosalyn Carter arrived in Washington D.C. from Georgia, they had to subject their daughter Amy to a D.C. public school to prove they weren't Southern racists.

But by 1993, when Bill and Hillary Clinton rolled into town from Arkansas, everybody who was anybody accepted that the D.C. public schools were awful (even if you had Secret Service bodyguards).

So when the Clintons enrolled Chelsea in an expensive Quaker private school, Sidwell Friends Academy, they didn't pay a political price for their hypocrisy.

Howard Kurtz wrote in the Columbia Journalism Review in 1994:

"Equally revealing was media response to the Clintons's announcement that they were sending their daughter, Chelsea, to Sidwell Friends, an $11,000-a-year private school in northwest Washington. When columnist Mark Shields praised Sidwell on The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour, he had to note that his children went there, as did Jim Lehrer's and Judy Woodruff's. Woodruff's husband, Al Hunt, made a similar disclosure while defending Clinton on Capital Gang. Carl Rowan touted Sidwell on Inside Washington, pointing out that his grandchildren attended the school. Howard Fineman, whose daughter was in kindergarten at Sidwell, said he "shamelessly lobbied" the Clintons to choose the school."

So don't worry about being duplicitous. Do what the Clintons and all those media liberals, white and black, did -- put your children's welfare first!

the very parents who could greatly help to improve the public system if they would just get involved and actually support it with their own kids.

I hate this idea that parents (and the students) need to "support" poorly performing schools with their presence. Cripes. Students (and their parents) are not resources to be exploited.

The best support anyone has given to the schools has been to elected a mayor whose biggest ambition is to disband the school board and who appointed a chancellor whose goal is to start firing the incompetent patronage hires in the central office.

This happens in Canada, too. Last time I was in Toronto, the woman I stayed with lived right next to a perfectly good school that had no students because there just wasn't a need for it. Coming from Los Angeles, it seemed as though I had entered a strange otherworld....

Right, parents should have to do nothing more than pay their taxes to ensure that children receive the highest quality public education. They have no responsibilities to get to know the principal or faculty. They shouldn't demand a challenging curriculum or fight to see their child put in the classes with the best teachers. They shouldn't have to check homework or chaperone field trips or help with projects and fundraisers or even attend parent/teacher conferences. That's the mayor's job.

I won't play games with the education of my child but with your child, I'm willing to support every crackpot scheme that promises improvement.

Fred - I mentioned the high dropout rate as "a" contributer, not "the" contributer to the declining school population. I never wrote that it was the sole cause; I just pointed out it's one that MY neglected to mention

There are other things MY neglected to mention. Besides white flight, (1)there is black flight. Middle class blacks and Democrats once thought throwing money and surplus teachers at schools dominated by underclass black denizons would fix the litany of problems. When it was clear that school amenities, highly qualified teachers. small class sizes had no effect on the core dysfuctionalism and poor performance of the "knuckleheads" and the degraded, violent culture they brought to school - the black taxpayers began fleeing for suburbia.(2) Fortunately, as welfare became not a lifetime entitlement, the worst of the black underclass began breeding less and less thugs and poor performers for school enrollment, pushing enrollment down further. (3)The School Administration was dominated by incompetent black appointees of the Dem Party machine, with major scandals every other month - helping solidify resident's impression that DC school's were hopeless once lack of discipline, apathy, and thug behavior take over after elementary school. Which drives all who can to have kids in private school. (4)The fact that most of the DC elites white and black would not consign their kids to being educated alongside dysfunctional, violent, disruptive underclass means they have less stake in how the schools can fix their problems. (5)When academically gifted, disciplined blacks are discovered from constant scouting, they are given the Obama treatment - free or almost free scholarship to private schools so the private schools can display their commitment to diversity with high performing blacks that don't drag down the performance of other private school students. (6)White & Asian Yuppies, there to be either Fed employees for a few years after college or as courtiers to big Beltway Bandits dealing with the government as a career step before moving on to jobs in the States - have almost no kids because they can't afford private schools yet, worry about kid's safety - so they defer having a family until they leave DC, if then...

DC is just like NOLA, Detroit, parts of NYC, LA - hundreds of cities. They once had stellar public schools, but couldn't stop the kids of the black underclass and post civil-rights era liberal thinking on matters such as tracking and discipline from dragging the whole show down.

The problem may be spreading to certain Hispanic immigrants who have accepted the cultural values and low regard of education of their underclass black peers as "cool and emulatable". Though they are less likely to WANT to go to school with such blacks or have them as friends...
Fortunately, few Asians, Indians, Muslims, Africans, E Europeans are falling in that trap.

Fred,
Your change of tone from the first comment, in which DeShawn's education seemed like a real concern of yours, is in my opinion striking. But we'll consider that a miscommunication.

Nevertheless, you missed the crux of my point - a high dropout rate is a level effect, not a trend (duh). So your point is meaningless even as a contributory effect. And given its overtones, dubious as well.

Matt,

DeShawn's education is a real concern of mine. If he gets educated, there's a better chance of him being a productive citizen versus being a drain on society. If he wants to learn, and it were up to me, he would be given the opportunity to do so in a KIPP school where they have a track record of success in educating low income black and Latino students. If he doesn't want to learn, I'm not sure what you can do for him.

"Nevertheless, you missed the crux of my point."

Sorry for missing it, it was poorly made.

"a high dropout rate is a level effect, not a trend (duh). So your point is meaningless even as a contributory effect."

The "duh" is a little gratuitous, but let's assume for the moment that the dropout rate remains constant, bearing in mind that it's also possible the dropout rate has been trending higher. Let's say it's a flat 50%. If you have high schools built to handle X students because the local elementary and junior high schools have X students, and then you only end up with 1/2 X students in the high school because 50% of the freshman dropout, wouldn't this contribute to "undercrowding" at the high school?


"Schools have driving courses that students can drive in during driver's ed classes?

Yeah, you didn't have that? We had 10 Chrysler K cars on our course. The best part was the front passenger seat had an extra brake pedal. The 10 best drivers got to be car "leaders" and they would ride shotgun with the other 3 student drivers assigned to each car. Should anyone get out of control the leader was expected to keep the car from running off the course.

Posted by Just Karl | September 19, 2007 10:08 PM"

Even the New England prep school I went to didn't have this, but the school would let a local driving school (who also didn't have their own track) use a classroom after hours. Ironically, my prep school probably had a higher percentage of African-American students than the public school I went to before that.

By the way, that football field looks like crap.

I'm amazed that someone would call the Clinton's hypocrites for sending their child to private school. Where did Clinton say that everyone ought to send their children to public schools? So far as I can tell, never. Yes, Clinton believes that every child should have a good public school that they can attend . . . but that's not at all the same thing as believing that they should be compelled to attend public school. Yes, Clinton is not a proponent of spending taxpayer's money to fund private education . . . but that is not at all the same thing as believing that individuals can't spend their own money as they see fit.

There are a lot of nice things that I can't afford to buy. The government isn't obliged to give me a voucher for them. Private schools are nice, but they aren't obliged to accept every student and they aren't accountable to the taxpayers. Unless they are following NCLB and IDEA, we shouldn't be funding them.

William:

The point is not public vs. private schools, its black vs. white schools.

Chelsea Clinton attended only public schools in Arkansas, but when her parents moved to black-run Washington D.C. in 1993, rather than enroll her in the local black-dominated public school, as Jimmy Carter had done to his young daughter 16 years before, the Clintons sent her to an expensive Quaker school. Quakers were not as big a part of Bill Clinton's coalition as blacks were, but Washington D.C.'s liberal media elite approved of the Clintons' hypocrisy because they all sent their kids to similar white-dominated schools, too.

Steve,
While I am not entirely sure where Chelsea Clinton went to school in Arkansas, I can say by experience of living in Little Rock, most of the public schools in that city are majority black (though again my experience is from a more recent time where lots of parents send their kids to private schools, I don't know what it was like in the early 90s. So if Chelsea went to public schools in AR, then it was probably majority black. I would imagine it was not a white v black issue, but rather a question of quality education.

Steve,
I did some researchand Chelsea Clinton atteded Horace Mann Arts & Sciences Magnet Middle School. A school originally founded as Horace Mann School for Negros. I suspect it is located in a part of town that is majority black. Again I do not know what the demographic information for it was when CLinton went to school there, but for the current year, http://www.muninetguide.com/school.php?school=90000062160 it is majoirty black. Your argument seems to be falling apart.

When I advocate for improving the Amtrak's Northeast Corridor infrastructure to make it feasible for me to get a train from DC to Boston, no one complains that I'm "not supporting the trains" because I opt to fly, instead. It's not that much different in the schools. It's hardly the fault of parents for "not supporting the schools" when the textbooks don't show up.

)The School Administration was dominated by incompetent black appointees of the Dem Party machine

Correction: the Marion Barry Machine. I challenge you to find any incompetent school appointees, of any race, in Fenty's administration.

By the way, that football field looks like crap.

As I said, no worse than the National Mall, sadly enough.

1. Don't let your children get beaten up by underclass minorities.

Well, at the 65% black public school system I went to, I was never beaten up by underclass minorities. Probably because I didn't go around treating them like Morlocks, but actually was, you know, a kid, doing kid stuff with other kids.

I really hope people will start to understand that Sailer and Fred are just unambiguously, unashamedly racist. They both think black people are predisposed to stupidity, violence and criminality. They dance around it, because they want to be taken seriously, but that's the case.

According to greatschools.net, Horance Mann Magnet School has the lowest percentage of free lunch students out of any school in the Little Rock School System. It is also the whitest middle school in the system.


According to wikipedia, the DC schools are less than 5% white in a city of about 35% whites. The only high school that has any measurable number of white is School Without Walls in Foggy Bottom. Anecdotal evidence does not replace the data that the white liberals in DC will just not send their children to public schools with large number of blacks.

If white liberals want their children to go to public schools, they move into Bethesda and send their children to Bethesda-Chevy Chase High School where the school is 70% white or Asian.

Anecdotal evidence does not replace the data that the white liberals in DC will just not send their children to public schools with large number of blacks.

Since you're in the habit of asking for hard data, demonstrate evidence that these people are liberals.

The entire "hypocrisy" argument about going to Sidwell is absurd. All you have to do is compare the tuition of going to Sidwell with the the typical voucher payment.

Minimum Sidwell Tuition: $26,790
A standard voucher payment: $2,250.

Vouchers would do practically nothing to help the normal DCer go to Sidwell. And we aren't even factoring in the likely tuition rise for private schools which would occur because of the vouchers.

Freddie,

The District of Columbia voted over 90% for Kerry in 2004. The media does not ever bother to report on the general election because the only relevant election in DC is the Democratic Primary. There are almost no Republicans in DC are very few in the counties that actually touch DC (Arlington, Montgomery, or PG). See http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/DC/

DC is the bluest political body that awards Electorial College votes.

Freddie,

Since your in the habit of asking other people for hard data, demonstrate evidence that I am a racist.

@superdestroyer

So, the only counties in the DC metro area with any Republican base at all are PG, Montgomery and Arlington? Aren't those the very same counties that others on this board are claiming that white liberals move to in order to avoid educating their children together with ethnic minorities?

So, your point is basically that white Republicans don't even do lip service to supporting integration, they just move immediately to the outlying suburbs?

Somehow the moral superiority of that position eludes me.

&chik

I wrote that there are very few Republicans in Arlington, Montgomery, or PG (PG county has about the same percentage as DC).

the elite whites in Montgomery want as little to with blacks and the elite whites in DC.

My experience is that about half the whites in DC tend to be Republicans. The thing is that the reason this gets distorted in the vote-totals is that many whites in DC keep their registration in their home states.

That said, the "Republican elite" in the metro area, such as it is, has moved to Arlington.

superdestroyer is funny because he's not saying that Hillary and Bill sent Chelsea to a "white school" in Arkansas which, obviously, they didn't, but is only claiming they are racists because the school was more white than the other public schools. Yeah, real good comeback there, superdestroyer.

Tyro,

Are you claiming that the racial makeup of Mann Magnet had nothing to do with the Clinton's decision or that the racial makeup had nothing to do with it being the best public middle school in Little Rock?

I would also suspect that Mann functioned like every other public school with large numbers of both black and white students in that certain classes and electives were associated with the white students and certain classes and electives were associated with black students. Even the Washingotn Post has had stories about how the 25% of the students at T.C.Williams in Alexandria who are white function in a school with large black and hispanic populations. They stick to the AP classes and the the crew team while the football team is all black and the non-advanced tracks have almost no white students.

Ok, so the new argument by those who call (liberal) supporters of public schools and opponents of charter school who send their own children to private schools are hypocrits is now that it's not public vs. private schools but black vs. white school.

But again, the reason why these parents are supposed to be hypocrites eludes me. Because it's only hypocritical when it's proven fact that if only there were loads of charter schools and/or vouchers, the quality of (publicly funded) education (for blacks) would dramatically improve and suddenly, in some magical way, all black children would go to mixed-raced schools (which liberals would hate because they are racists and want to trap all blacks in sucky public schools).

But as studies have shown (I think I remember one by the US Dept. of Education), charter schools are not, generally, much, if any, better than public schools. And vouchers would not nearly be high enough to get the beneficiaries into "normal", that is, very expensive (and therefor dominantly white) private schools (if you ignore the fact that there are not nearly enough of those schools for even an modest proportion of school children.

So what the conservative proponents of charter schools and vouchers are asking for is

a) sucking up a huge proportion of the public education budget (which, by the way, if anything, conservatives would like to cut, because baah, big government!) for a parallel school system that is not, by and large, superior to the public one they detest and which would be, in dominantly black areas, again be overwhelmingly black, and

b) thus making the combined system more expansive in principle because there has to be a public school as default option if the charter school fails (which, if memory serves, they frequently do).

If liberals do not want this, they are pragmatists, not hypocrites.

Conservative seem to argue that liberals are supporting public schools for the sake of them being public and thus, per definitionem, better.

But IMO, if anything, it's the opposite: Conservatives support vouchers and charter schools for the sake of them going to/being not public schools (not to mention them being preferably conservative christian schools many supporters would love to funnel public money to).

Funny thing is, conservatives have preached to us (not completely without merit) for decades that the dismal economic and educational state of large parts of the minority communities is (at least to a great extent) the result of destroyed family structures, largely immune to social engineering by public programs, and which has to be cured with the tough love of self-reliance. Why, then, charter schools are somehow the magic bullet is a mystery for me.

By the way, I don't see many afluent white conservatives sending their children to the (dominantly black) charter schools they profess to love instead of the the white private schools they can afford. But of cause, they are not hypocrites, while liberal supporters of public schools have to prove that they are not racist hypocrites by sending their children do public schools, may these schools be sucky or not.

superdestroyer, if the Clintons were determined to keep Chelsea away from black people, they clearly would have found some all-white evangelical school for Chelsea created during the desegregation era, of which I'm sure there are many. As it is, they seem to have found a high-quality public school. It stands to reason that, if such a thing were available in DC, they would have done the same.

Patrick, my support for charter schools and (to a limited degree) vouchers is entirely cynical-- they may not, in the aggregate, produce better outcomes, but they may create the feeling of greater satisfaction among the parents, which makes them less motivated to move out of the city in favor of a better school district. Keeping those families in the city likely has positive externalities which are worthwhile.

Tyro,

I don't know too many white Republicans in DC. (One of the joys of living here.) They tend to opt for Fairfax County and the outer suburbs I think. Bush didn't break ten percent in either election here.

tyro,

A governor in the South would have a huge political problem if they send their children to private schools. Clinton and Bush both sent their daughter to the best public school in the area (of course, those schools happened to be the whitest). If President Clinton had wanted to set a new standard for leadership he could have sent Chelsea to a school in either Arlington, Fairfax, or Montgomergy County (such as Thomas Jefferson High School in Annendale) to demonostrate his commitment to public schools. However, in DC, elite, white Democrats are given a pass on their back handed racism. They send their children to private schools that are almost all white.

I found it humorous that Justice Ginsberg wrote an opinion that raced based busing in Louisville and Seattle were just not legal but good public policy when her own daugher and grand daughter had attended a virtually all white private school in NYC.

"Patrick, my support for charter schools and (to a limited degree) vouchers is entirely cynical-- they may not, in the aggregate, produce better outcomes, but they may create the feeling of greater satisfaction among the parents, which makes them less motivated to move out of the city in favor of a better school district."

Cynicism aside, I am sceptical if vouchers and charter schools are attractive to parents who have the option to move to a better school district. I whould get they are attractive only for those for whom the public schools in the area they currtenty live are the only alternative.

I don't know too many white Republicans in DC.

Strangely, I know a lot. Though I will concede that (a) I'm younger than you are and thus know a lot more single young people, including hill staffers and political appointees, and a lot of them are Republican, and (b) come to think of it, many of those same Republicans live in northern Virginia.

superdestroyer, now you're just making stuff up and inventing non-existent hypotheticals for the purpose of axe-grinding. Frankly, in a city as screwed up as DC, everyone gets a "pass" for avoiding the public school system. No one criticizes republicans for refusing to sent their kids to charter schools or urban catholic schools of which they are so enamored.

tyro,

Are you saying that Montgomery County could not have found a seat for Chelsea at Bethesda-Chevy Chase High School or Arlington County could not have found a seat at Washington-Lee High School if President Clinton had ask. Remember, during the 1992 election, Clinton had stated to the NEA that public education was vital to the U.S. If it is vital to the U.S. then why was it not important to the leaders of the Democratic Party who get 100% of the donations from the public schools unions.

At least the Clinton could have found a private school that had a unionized workforce but I doubt one exist in DC.

I see the Clinton's as hypocrites because they sent their daughter to a school with admissions testing when they opposed high stakes testing, they sent their daughter to a school that had a non-unionized workforce, and Chelsea did not have to sit next to a single child of illegal aliens, the children of blue collar families, or even children who would have to attend a public university.

superdestroyer, as I remember, Bill Clinton allocated plenty of money for transportation funds, despite the fact that he flew around in a private jet here and there. I support better levees for new orleans even though I'd probably never raise my children there. And I'd like to see better rail transit between Boston and DC even though I don't use it at all, now, because it's more efficient for me to fly.

Chelsea did not have to sit next to a single child of illegal aliens, the children of blue collar families, or even children who would have to attend a public university.

You rabidly and irrationally discount the fact that she did do so when she lived in Arkansas. Furthermore, those of us who did go to private school remember plenty of people who attended public universities after graduating. As I said, you're just mindlessly axe-grinding.

Super,

do you have any evidence that the Clinton's motivation was anything other than sending Chelsea to the best school they could afford? Do you honestly think they would, if they had to choose between a "white" school and a "black" school both offering the same educational quality, have choosen the "white" school just because they are such racists?

tyro, Chelsea went to a public magent schools where every student had to opt into the school. I doubt that there were many spanish speakers in her advantage science and math class.

Also, DC is so competative that any parent of a child who attended Sidwell Friends and went on to public university would probably be veiwed as a total lower and just one step away from child abuse. If you are attending Sidwell Friends, then Duke and Brown are probably your safety schools.

Tyro,

I do think there are younger Republicans who live in DC, but don't necessarily vote here. Older Repubs head for the hills, except maybe for Phil Graham who I had the pleasure of flipping off one day while leaving work. (No not on ideological grounds -- he was driving like an asshole in his Suburban with his Texas plates saying US Sen 1.)

superdestroyer,

Yes - I am sure that everyone in Bethesda would have been grateful to have Chelsea's motorcade coming up Connecticut or Wisconsin Avenue every morning. Because traffic isn't bad here at all. And what exactly would have been the point of sending her to B-CC?

Latly, some of the private school faculty are most definitely unionized in DC. Can't specifically vouch for Sidwell Friends in this regard, but the notion that all of them are non-union is wrong.

Almost all of the private schools have scholarships and diversity policies, so that, in fact, your kid will sit next to kids of other races and economic backgrounds. It is not anything like the demographics of a DC public school, but the private schools are not monochromatic. And my son goes to school with a lot more African American kids than I did at my large public high school in Massachusetts.

Fred, you (and Sailer) can defuse me quite easily. Just tell me that you don't think that black people are predisposed to lower intelligence, more aggression, or criminality. Then I won't have much to say, will I? Except that Sailer, for one, certainly believes that, and he has blogged and written about it at length. But how about you, Fred? Since you seem to think it's self-evident that white students in largely black schools will be beaten mercilessly by their black peers, tell me if you think that black people are fundamentally violent. And if not, how does that square with a lot of the things you've said here in the past?

"...the building itself is several standard city blocks."

Doesn't the picture show me, rather conclusivly, that the building is about 100 yards by 50 yards (or maybe 120 by 60)?

How small are the city blocks on D.C., anyway?

The whites who live and vote in DC are so liberal that in 2000, Bush barely beat Nader among them. The exit poll showed that Washington D.C. has by far the most liberal whites in the country (compared to any state) voting 67% for Gore, 20% for Bush, and 12% for Nader.

And yet, they almost never ever send their precious children to DC's black run public school system.

Left nut,

Are you saying "Politics and Prose" is the best bookstore in the country? Where did you send your kid: GDS? Field? Maret? Edmund Burke? St. Anselms? Wilson is actually a very good school and several of my Ivy League classmates went there.

You'll notice Sailer doesn't deny the things I've said about him. Because they happen to be true.

Terence,

I was indeed claiming P&P to be the best bookstore. Alright, maybe hyperbolic, but it's a pretty damn fine bookstore and we here in Forest Hill don't really have many cultural claims to make, so you have to forgive me.

If you came in late, you might not have noticed, but I indicated that Wilson had worked well for several people's kids that I know, but that I didn't think that it would work for my son (more him than Wilson). Many kids in the honors program at Wilson get into Ivy League Schools and generally do quite well. But yes, Burke is where he and my money go.

Salier,

Your unabashed racism is really remarkable. The lack of any filter or qualms about revealing yourself in this repugnant way is quite retro. That you think we share your ugliness but just won't reveal it says a lot more about you than it does about us.

"But how about you, Fred? Since you seem to think it's self-evident that white students in largely black schools will be beaten mercilessly by their black peers, tell me if you think that black people are fundamentally violent. And if not, how does that square with a lot of the things you've said here in the past?"

I'm not a scientist, Freddie. I can't tell you what percent, if any, of the violence, behavioral problems, and poor academic performance common in many black-majority schools is due to nature or nurture, or a combination of both. But I don't need to know the causation to recognize the obvious correlations and act accordingly. This is how honest people apply their common sense and powers of observation in the real world.

"You'll notice Sailer doesn't deny the things I've said about him. Because they happen to be true."

The guy does have a wife and kids, you know. It's possible he's actually doing something else related to that right now, and hasn't had a chance to respond to your last comment.

Getting the refreshments for the Klavern meeting?

The guy does have a wife and kids, you know. It's possible he's actually doing something else related to that right now, and hasn't had a chance to respond to your last comment.

Except that he posted since then. Anyway, so there you go. You admit to that prejudice, and you're entitled to it. I just wish you two wouldn't dance around it so much. Just let your bigot flag fly and let everyone know how you really feel.

Mr. Klein, who spends a vast amount of money each year to avoid sending his children to the black-dominated, black-run Washington DC public school in his neighborhood, is denouncing me as a Ku Klux Klanner for endorsing his thinking that led to him deciding to do what's best for his children. My crime is that I explain in public why white liberal DC parents like him almost universally make the decisions they do about schooling for their kids. So, he hysterically smears me for saying out loud what he, and everybody else likes him, thinks in private.

For the sake of his children, I'm glad he's a hypocrite.

Now, the crucial question for the good of America is this: Wouldn't it be better for America as a whole if the D.C. elites would discuss in public the knowledge they all act upon in private when it comes to deciding where to send their kids to school?

Because you aren't allowed to publicly state -- unless you are willing to put up with the kind of mindless smear jobs that I put up with -- what everybody in DC acts upon when making decisions about their own loved ones' welfare, the country gets idiotic laws like No Child Left Behind, which mandates that every single public school student in America be above average by 2014.

I don't think I'm hysterically smearing you Steve -- you attribute the problems with the DC school system directly to the fact that there are a majority of black students in the system and that the system is "black run." No other reasons are suggested by you as to why the system has difficulties -- it is racial essentialism.

As much as you may think so, I do not subscribe to your views, even in private.

So, he hysterically smears me for saying out loud what he, and everybody else likes him, thinks in private.

Ok! Ok here! Let's figure this out. Steve, why is it a smear to accurately describe your views? You unapologetically say that some races are inferior to others, right? You certainly have said that black people are predisposed to being less intelligent, right? I'm not lying when I say that, correct? And you think black people are more prone to violence, right? You've said as much here.

So this is what I don't get: why are you then angered by people calling you a racist? Those are, by any definition, racist views. If you think any one race is inferior to any other, you're engaging in racism. So why should the term bother you so much? Why not just stand up for it? It seems you think the term is what's wrong. But I absolutely struggle to imagine a definition of racism that doesn't include thinking black people are stupid and violent.

If you just don't like the stigma, well, sorry. Your opinions change the way people think about you. People maybe not taking you so seriously is the price you pay for your bigotry.