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More Than Toast, Less Than a Staplegun

02 Sep 2007 02:33 pm

I just saw Superbad last night, and along with Knocked Up it seems to mark a trend (two makes a trend in blog terms) in the direction of a very odd thematic juxtaposition. On one level, these are movies telling guys that what you need to do to get the girl is basically to stop acting like such a fucktard. And in that sense, in addition to being funny movies, they're both movies that have a kind of worthy social message.

On another level, however, both movies seem to imply that there are tons of gorgeous women out there, seemingly intelligent and kind, who are just chomping at the bit for the opportunity to go out with fundamentally unlikable losers if they can just pull themselves together and act like average human beings for a minute. The primary focus is really is on the first theme, but this secondary element is vital to the plot mechanics, and seems to substantially undercut the intended message.

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Well, I'd make a couple distinctions - Michael Cera in Superbad and Steve Carell in 40-Year-Old Virgin were quite likable. They were losers, but they were fundamentally good, caring men, and their respective love interests - Catherine Keener in particular, who got a lot more to do - I thought appeared to be good matches for them.

Seth Rogen in Knocked Up and especially Jonah Hill in Superbad - Hill playing a character written by Rogen based on Rogen, but as a less likable, significantly more likely closeted character - were much harder to accept as particularly good people who were going to treat others, and significant others, as well as they ought.

"there are tons of gorgeous women out there, seemingly intelligent and kind, who are just chomping at the bit for the opportunity to go out with fundamentally unlikable losers if they can just pull themselves together and act like average human beings for a minute"


there are not tons of gorgeous women out there. period. look around. and certainly not tons of gorgeous women who are worth the time. these themes were perhaps necessary to make the films' appeal to lots of people, but the underlying assumptions don't match reality.

I don't think Matthew was arguing that the underlying assumption matches reality. Far from it.

John appears to be a character in Superbad.

Ha Ha! Brooksfoe makes fun of john by saying john is not a nice person for harboring his own thoughts!

john, you have heard the charges, and you have been sentenced. you shall spend five years in re-education camp, after which, you may plead guilty to the charges!

I don't think this is a new trend ... I'm pretty sure movies like this have been made for a while.

there are not tons of gorgeous women out there. period. look around. and certainly not tons of gorgeous women who are worth the time.

I'm not sure what your standards for hotness are, john, but it would really suck to have them.

Socially worthwhile messages?

Those are like the cartoons and movies my kids watch? I thought people stopped watching those once they became adolescents.

Are there any movies that suggest that "girls" that to get socially worthwhile guys they may wish to stop acting like fucktards?

(Actually, the Princess Diaries went along way in that regard, but I am thinking of movies not marketed to the tweens, and mostly marketed to the faux and echo feminist set.)

Seriously Matt, once again, we're so glad to know how enlightened you are.

Self-esteem and getting laid have often been a trade-off Christopher M. Glad that you and I agree, go ugly early.

As a woman, this has bothered me about movies for years, and although it's endemic in movies oriented to teenage boys, it's not limited to them. Paul Giamatti and Virginia Madsen? Bill Murray and Scarlet Johansson? Nicholas Cage and Elizabeth Shue? Rob Schneider and Hanna Verboom? Will Ferrell and Christina Applegate?

Trust me, romantic or sexual scenes with gorgeous women and average-looking (or worse) guys are just not that enjoyable for the women in the audience. It's clear they're satisfying someone's fantasies, and they're not ours.

The trend's name is "Judd Apatow" -- it's not like these two films bubbled up independently.

So rle, it's not clear what you would prefer,

average or worse guys and average or worse women

good looking guys and good looking women

good looking guys and average looking women

good looking women and average looking guys

Given the examples above, I would say the men were made their reputation on talent (most are comedians), and the women made their reputation on looks.

Chris - by all means, GUE, if that suits you. there is nothing i said about women that does not apply to men in general as well. just because someone is good-looking does not make them worth the time. just because someone is interesting does not mean that their looks don't matter. (see rle's remarks about unrealisitic pairings....)

also, there are plenty of female fucktards - they just don't get called that.

On another level, however, both movies seem to imply that there are tons of gorgeous women out there, seemingly intelligent and kind, who are just chomping at the bit for the opportunity to go out with fundamentally unlikable losers if they can just pull themselves together and act like average human beings for a minute.

Indeed. Call it The King of Queens/Every-other-family-based-sitcom rule. Oafish (usually overweight) man with a heart of gold under an external layer of flabby masculinity gets to marry/fornicate with a smoking hot woman.

This dynamic exists, of course, because the target audience (for these sitcoms generally, and Superbad and Knocked Up specifically) is young to middle age men who are supposed to sympathize greatly with the male protagonists, and thus they watch the movies/sitcoms in part for the fantasy fulfillment of the nice guy finishing first.

This works greatly against the credibility of the movies, which is unfortunate in the case of Superbad, which for the most part is a loving recreation of the psyche of an 18 year old man/boy. There's no way a person who looked like Seth in reality would end up with the kind of girl Seth eventually lands. It's nice as fantasy, and it'll make you movie popular with the 18 year old geeks (I was one once myself, not so long ago) who see themselves in Seth and Evan. It makes for a weak ending to an otherwise wonderful comedy.

The only male-oriented movie to avoid this trap that I can think of is Rushmore, in which the oddball male protagonist with a heart of gold buried under layers of bitterness and caustic wit ends up not with his fantasy woman, but instead a girl with whom he could very conceivably fall in love and marry one day down the line. It's a very adult way to look at things--we don't get our fantasies, we get who fits us best(physically, mentally, and all the rest).

Those themes have been present in every nerd-gets-girl movie ever. They're pretty much the defining features of a genre.

The problem with Knocked Up was that Seth Rogen's character was a douche who wasn't even very funny. In most nerd-gets-girl movies, the nerd is nice and innocent. In real life, if a non-good looking guy like Rogen is going to pull off Katherine Hegel, he's going to have to be very funny and charming.

they're both movies that have a kind of worthy social message.

Extracting a workable social message from a comedy where the male lead is an unlikeable, purposefully unattracive illegal alien (whose father mysteriously seems to live in the country quite comfortably) with $900 to his name and whose "job" is working on an unlaunched porn website yet somehow manages to sleep with the hot doctor from Grey's Anatomy and have her fall in love with him after a series of setbacks - not really worth anyone's time.

I hope no one left the theater thinking, "I have a shot with her, if I just clean up my act."

Hysterically funny, though.

In most nerd-gets-girl movies, the nerd is nice and innocent.

Speaking of, a much more disturbing message came from The Transformers, where it seems if you're the geeky kid with the right ancestor, alien robots will come find you and hook you up with the hottest girl in school.

Superbad wasn't about the chicks. It's about a specific time in a specific kind of male adolescent friendship and it worked for me on that level.

Whereas Knocked Up is actually about the hot chick with douchebag thing. And that's a thing that angers me.

I was going to say that I hope this is the first time The Atlantic has published the awesome word "fucktard," but then I realized I kinda hope they've already slipped it into some poetry review.

there are tons of gorgeous women out there, seemingly intelligent and kind, who are just chomping at the bit for the opportunity to go out with fundamentally unlikable losers if they can just pull themselves together and act like average human beings for a minute.

Well, Matt, this probably doesn't line up with your experience at this point in your life, but it is a lot more true of the over-30 social scene.

The fact that it appears in movies about characters in other age demographics is a combination of wish fulfillment and the age group of the script writers.

The trend's name is 'Judd Apatow' -- it's not like these two films bubbled up independently.

True. There was a time in the early part of this decade when every commercially successful comedy seemed to have the Wilson brothers, Ben Stiller, Vince Vaughn, or Will Ferrell (Old School, Wedding Crashers, Dodgeball, Zoolander, Starsky and Hutch, Anchorman, Talledega Nights, Blades of Glory). Some of these were funny, but some of them were profoundly unfunny attempts to cash in on previously established formulas. Thankfully, this era of cookie-cutter comedies seems to be coming to an end. We have entered the Apatovian period.

Speaking of which, did anyone else see The TV Set? It kind of flew under the radar, but it was a pretty solid satire.

Haven't seen Superbad yet, but Knocked Up was absurd not because the guy was ugly or unemployed but he was a jackass. There was just so much wrong with that guy and he was so lacking in social skills that the only way he's getting a girl like that in bed is with a chloroform and duct tape.

Now the real world solution (or perhaps sequel) to both movies' plot question is--- go younger. In real life, someone as maladaptive as Ben in Knocked Up in will be dating high school girls, and a teenager as obnoxious as Seth in Superbad (from what I gather from the trailers) is going after middle school girls.

The majority of teenager mothers in this country are impregnated by men 20 or older-- guys go after jailbait when they don't have the social skills or status to pull girls their own age.

The most impressive thing about Knocked Up, to me, was how likable the Seth Rogan character was, despite various things that should have made him unlikable. I guess it's because I'm biased in favor of good-natured stoners, or maybe it's because his friends were all even bigger losers, but I liked the guy.

"there are tons of gorgeous women out there, seemingly intelligent and kind, who are just chomping at the bit for the opportunity to go out with fundamentally unlikable losers if they can just pull themselves together and act like average human beings for a minute."

It worked for me - we've been married for three years now!

Sounds like rle has a point. I'll add that this trend deprives the non-glamourous male viewer of the chance of imagining himself as, say, Cary Grant.

Huh? What is her point? That casting decisions and movie plots are made by corporate fucks based on what will sell the most tickets and very little else?

That's news?

I don't know, the average 25 year old woman is a lot better put together than her male counterpart.

Matt's GF looks out of his league too.

Michael Cera is way better looking than the girl he was paired up with. Apatow movies are notable for relative (underline relative) lack of insane hotness you see in other films and TV.

as far as physical attractiveness is concerned, I've seen a lot more "unlikely" pairings in which an unattractive or average man was together with an above average or very attractive woman than the other way around - one such attractive woman, who is very close to me (it's a pretty touchy subject to ask someone about), and had been involved with (some , but not exclusively) objectively far less attractive men, told me that, as long as the sex was good and the relationship was interesting and enjoyable, she didn't really care about male attractiveness

so I don't think Knocked Up is all that unrealistic

I hated Superbad.

I hated, hated, hated, hated that movie!!! HATED!!!

As David Alan Grier and Tommy Davidson would have said in "Men On..." in In Living Color, "Hated it."

I may be the only person who has seen it that never laughed once during the entire film - and I am sort of in the target demographic. But I am glad that other people thought the Jonah Hill character was a complete and total jackass.

I HATED this film!!!

Oh, and if you want to see the reverse scenario, where somewhat pudgy girl (although I think she's cute) dates hot guy, see Hairspray. Which is a much, much better film, and one of the most enjoyable films of the Summer.

Other good films: The King of Kong, Stardust (one of my favorite films of the Summer - even though it seems like nobody saw it), the Bourne Ultimatum, and the Simpsons Movie (although the Simpsons Movie is not as funny as some of the best Simpsons episodes, it is still good).

I love that song.

On the subject of the attractiveness of characters/actors in films...I wish they would make more movies where the high school kids (i.e., the girls) looked like high school kids rather than 20-something models.

Also, there should have been quotation marks around the first line in my previous post since I was quoting DonBoy, but I take it that was obvious enough.

Hairspray sucked, as did SuperBad. Will try Stardust, but movies in general suck anymore. May be that I just don't respond well to the movie form anymore, but movies suck in general. I used to love going to the movies, but they just leave me cold now.

Seth Rogen is HOT!!!!!!!

As a woman friend once explained to me--if you're going to score with beautiful women you have to have either lots of money or a really big cock.

john,

If you liked the Princess Bride, you will probably like Stardust. Although I think the Princess Bride is better.

If you really want to see nerds in action, see the King of Kong. Billy Mitchell is a GOD among nerds. It doesn't matter how nerdy you are, if you have hair like his, you're gonna score.

Nick,

The easiest way to score with beautiful women is get to know socially lots of beautiful women. I live in an apartment building with lots of art students (both male and female). The male art students, no matter what their appearance, often have beautiful girlfriends - even though they have no money (I personally don't know about their other....... endowments). It's because there are a lot of very appealing female art students and the guys get to know them in school.

It's not really a big mystery. More than a few of these guys in fact resemble Seth Rogen.

Isn't Nicolas Cage supposed to be a somewhat attractive guy? Your other examples are spot on, though.

And yeah- agreed with Knocked Up. I think Apatow wanted us to sympathize with Ben far more than the character deserved. There's a difference between being sweet but socially awkward (Steve Carrell in 40 Yr. Old Virgin) and a total douche (Rogen in Knocked up)

But hey- beautiful girls and average looking guys get together more than you think- look at Mel Brooks and Anne Bancroft (to go retro on y'all)

Dirty Dancing, which is a female-nerd-gets-hot-guy movie, is enduringly popular for a reason. I would love to see a version of that where the Jennifer Grey character is a lazy slacker as well as being merely shy and less attractive than the lust-object. Female fantasies are terribly underrepresented in movies which is weird, what with women being 50% of the audience and all. Shouldn't the market correct it? (she said disingenuously)

Hm. It seems to me that the flipside of this King-of-Queens syndrome is not just that it portrays an unrealistic standard of beauty (and somewhat more as objects to be desired than people to be cherished)-- but that it consistently portrays men as incompetent, immature "fucktards" of the Homer Simpson model. I can think of any number of fictional pairings offhand where "she ought to be out of his league" -- but, offhand, not ONE where it was the other way around.

It's supposed to be incredibly unlikely that Katherine Heigl would get together with Seth Rogen. That's the whole point of the movie. It's sort of like complaining that Harold and Maude was implausible because young men rarely date elderly women.

And when the movie needs an unattractive woman, nerdy, gauche and plain, they cast Sandra Bullock.

You want an unlikely comedy?

How about the Adam Sandler one out now where he and some other guy are firefighters who are pretending to be gay in order to get "cohabitation benefits" or something?

They get a lawyer played by the incredibly hot Jessica Biel. Sandler is hot for her, but has to fake being gay all the time - even when she's having him feel up her boobs while half naked.

Now that's a brain dead movie concept.

It might be funny, but the only reason I'd go see it is to see Jessica Biel half baked - those scenes are hot.

As for nerds and babes, join the PUA (Pick Up Artist) movement - learn how it's done. Read "The Game", "The Mystery Method" and other texts on how, as one expert puts it, "attraction isn't a choice." Almost all of it is counter-intuitive to what people believe about relationships and politically incorrect - but it works.

Oh, and both of us forgot "Hitch" from 2005.

Will Smith is a relationship counselor - or more precisely, a "love doctor". He takes on overweight Kevin James (also in the Sandler movie I mentioned above) as a client who wants Amber Valleta, a rich socialite (but not quite as messed up as Paris Hilton.)

Like Hitch says, "You want to knock one out of the ball park!"

I never bought it. No way somebody who looks like James is going to hook up with a woman who looks like Amber Valleta - especially one RICHER than he is. It ain't happening. The only remotely similar situation I can think of is Sophia Loren and Carlo Ponte.

Meanwhile Hitch himself is chasing Eva Mendes - and here you see some clever moves that are made believable by the fact that Will Smith's character is actually a good looking and engaging guy.

It was a fun movie - but I think a lot of the PUA community thought it was basic and not particularly effective.

Ahh the PUA community, now you're keeping it real.

I was just watching The Pickup Artist on VH-1, its a reality show where a one of the more famous pickup artists (the guy who wrote the Mystery Method) trains guys in his dark arts and then sends them out to pick up women, and its all seen by hidden cameras placed all over the nightclub.

Its actually a damn good show. The funny thing is, trotting out their lame lines doesn't really make a difference. Its that the nerds, for the first time in their lives, act with confidence and poise around women that suddenly makes them attractive.

It seems to me that the problem with the central relationship in Knocked Up was not that Seth Rogen was not good-looking enough to get with Katherine Heigl - that was obviously the premise of the movie. (And it's not as though one doesn't see women who are much better looking than the men they're dating in the real world).

The problem was not that he was too much of a douchebag. Maybe it's just because I'm a guy, but I didn't find him to be all that bad. And again, this was the premise of the movie.

The problem of it was that Seth Rogen and Katherine Heigl had absolutely no chemistry together.


Comments closed September 16, 2007.

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