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That MoveOn Ad

21 Sep 2007 10:41 am

I completely agree with the dread DC Establishment that calling General Petraeus "General Betrayus" was dumb. That said, I'm staggered by the amount of emphasis that people inside this town are placing on this. One virtue of having moved to the Beltway is that I can tell you, the reader, a thing or to about the mood here and that while you might think the reverse is true, the truth of the matter is that the left-of-center establishment is being restrained in terms of expressing its absolutely fury at MoveOn over this. People seem to really think that this was not merely a misstep, but a huge blunder of world-historical proportions.

As best I can tell, it's all basically bullshit. The whole fracas of Petraeus, Crocker, MoveOn, etc. has had, to a good first approximation, no impact whatsoever on anything of any significance. Bush continues to be stubborn. Republicans continue to back Bush. The war continues to go poorly and continues to be unpopular. There was nothing else that ever could have happened. A bunch of editors and politicians talked themselves into believing that this September showdown was crucially significant, but they were all wrong and their theory never made any sense.

The only showdown that mattered happened months ago. Democrats passed a war appropriation that funded the phased withdrawal of troops. Bush vetoed that appropriation and said he would only sign an appropriation that funded open-ended war. Bush sought to portray a congressional refusal to appropriate money for an open-ended military involvement in Iraq as some kind of plot to leave the troops starving and without bullets in Iraq. The press largely bought into this frame, which was re-enforced by the fact that many leading Democrats immediately decided to buy into as well. The party then decided not to try to fight to reframe the issue but, instead, to accept it. Given that framing of the question, the only thing to do was surrender and give Bush his money. And given that precedent, the only thing to do is to keep on surrendering any time Bush rhetorically holds the troops' well-being hostage to his preference for perpetual war.

That was a blunder -- a decision that condemned hundreds of Americans to die in Iraq -- and one that appears to have resulted from a total failure of the leadership to do any advance planning about their legislative tactics. All of September 2007 has been a meaningless sideshow. People find it comforting, I guess, to try to convince themselves that MoveOn is the reason our troops will be engaged in at least 18 more months of futile combat in Iraq, but it's just not true -- legislative defeat in September was inevitable, and the war is still very unpopular and still a very promising issue for 2008.

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Comments (136)

I completely agree with the dread DC Establishment that calling General Petraeus "General Betrayus" was dumb.
Dumb? It was certainly inflammatory, but was it really dumb? How much free publicity did MoveOn get?

Besides, as Noz describes, it was also a defensible inflammatory statement.

Matt:

Why was the MoveOn ad dumb? You have said this several times and never said why. I guess you think this is obvious, but not to me.

Moveon understands that the terms of the debate have to be changed in order to change policy. The Democratic leadership doesn't understand this, or isn't willing to do it. So the Beltway establishment is going to be angry.

If Moveon succeeds, the Beltway Dem establishment will go along docilely, because that's what they do.

Move On's blunder was huge PRECISELY because the reaction was predictable.

And as for the cave in on funding you describe, the main cheerleader for it in the Netroots was MOVE ON.

If I was a conspiracy theorist, I might think that the purpose of Move On's ad was to "recredentialize" itself on an agitating movement. After its failed and idiotic "ratcheting up the pressure" campaign, it was in dire need of it.

And because Left blogs apparently are not allowed to criticize each other or Move On, it has worked like a charm.

, no impact whatsoever on anything of any significance.

You're mis-measuring "anything of any significance," probably out of Pundit's Fallacy. The idea that Democrats are hostile to the military has been pretty valuable to the Republicans. So they're trying to replant that idea and grow it. Not nothing, just not directly relevant to questions about Iraq.

Armando:

The reaction was predictable, but that was the whole point, wasn't it? To get the message out that there were a lot of people that didn't think Petraeus was credible? Democratic congressmen and senators weren't going to be able to get that point across, at least in a way that anyone was going to pay attention. I have to believe that the phrase "General Betay Us" is going to stick in people's minds and leave more doubt than would have been there otherwise.

it was also a defensible inflammatory statement.

Boy, that's precisely what I've been thinking--that "betray" wasn't used in the sense of Petraeus being a traitor--but Noz's post is the first time I've seen this point made.

A related point that isn't mentioned enough either is that "General Betrayus" was a derotagory nickname used by the *troops* as far back as 2003, which MoveOn simply picked up for the ad; they didn't invent it. It's extremely doubtful that Petraeus's troops meant it to suggest he was a traitor.

If the ad was "dumb," it would be because MoveOn didn't anticipate that the right would take the term "betray" in the worst possible (not to mention most unlikely) light and use that interpretation to distract attention from what the ad was actually saying--or that so few on the left would forcefully defend the ad against such slimy Swiftboating.

Boy, that's precisely what I've been thinking--that "betray" wasn't used in the sense of Petraeus being a traitor--but Noz's post is the first time I've seen this point made.

Who cares? The point is to move people in your direction. That they misunderstood it is an indication that you failed, not that they failed. Similarly, if you have to explain a joke, it's not a good joke.

The Democratic party is in serious trouble. Our base is not going to be motivated for the tepid politicians that currently haunt the party. Two serious questions need to be asked; 1) what would a Republican congress have done differently than this congress? 2) What have the Democrats been given by the adminsitration in return for the cave-ins? If the answer to 2) is "nothing," then conservatives have a point; why should I trust national security to a party who routinely gets fleeced and embarassed by their opponents?

Those on the right who continue to go on about this ad are really embarrassing themselves. On NRO's "The Corner," there are about 20 mentions of MoveOn just on the front page. A blogger I read the other day, can't remember who, suggested that Hillary's refusal to condemn the ad would be a major issue in the 2008 general election.

Delusional.

so matthew, you're inside the beltway: can you please explain the strange aversion that the left-of-center establishment has to looking at polling data that shows us that the war is unpopular, that petraeus didn't change anyone's mind, that the war is unpopular, that bush is unpopular, and that the war is unpopular? the public wants this piece of adventurism to come to an end: what, exactly, are these left-of-center clowns thinking all day that they obsess on a move-on ad instead of noting reality?

It's so frustrating that the Left is always reacting to the Right's narrative, never driving the narrative.

As mind-boggling as the phrase "left of center establishment" may be, let's accept it and, uh, move on. Because what we're really seeing is that people inside the beltway have suffered such neuronal disintegration that the answers or help won't be coming from there.

The Move-On ad was basically correct- at this point in the game Petraeus is really just a sock-puppet for the WH. The current "plan" is the same as it always was- a permanent American occupation of Iraq. The "surge", as predicted, is an escalation.

And, in fact, none of the likely Democratic presidential candidates have any plans to change this. They have no ability to describe why this is insane. As far as they're concerned, things will just go on, as they do in healthcare and our grotesquely swollen "justice" system, and if, in fact, this is by any normal measurement a total failure, well, to people with health insurance and millions to spend on lawyers, it simply doesn't matter.

Meanwhile, aided by our own xenophobia, the rest of the world will learn to ignore us and wall us off, just as we used to hope that the body would encapsulate and wall off a tuberculosis lesion.

Of course, things won't be that easy, and thereby hangs a tale. Because our ability to attack people with nuclear weapons, or our ability to plunge the world into a depression, is unprecedented, the tale is impossible to foretell.

But the odds are very much against the idea that the tale will involve the establishment in Washington DC ruling the world and preserving our suburban lifestyle. Stick a fork in it, it's done.

"betray" wasn't used in the sense of Petraeus being a traitor

that's a mighty fine distinction. easy to land on the wrong side of that one.

If the ad was "dumb," it would be because MoveOn didn't anticipate that the right would take the term "betray" in the worst possible (not to mention most unlikely) light

what's unlikely is that the right, who have been accusing Dems of literal treason for years would see the word "betray" (a synonym of "treason") and not react exactly as they have. if MoveOn didn't anticipate that, they need to close up shop.

MoveOn's ad was utterly stupid and childish.

map, you write:

I have to believe that the phrase "General Betay Us" is going to stick in people's minds and leave more doubt than would have been there otherwise.

Especially since the "Betray Us" sobriquet was invented by milbloggers, not MoveOn. (Caveat: The site is from Pantloads Media, so it could always be part of a disinformation campaign).

What do I care what the courtiers in Versailles on the Potomac think? Our job is to shove the Overton Window left; to make the unthinkable, thinkable, and to make the unsayable, sayable. If that causes a little heartburn for the people who think they're on our side, they need to put down the pearls that they're clutching, and check their suckitude. After that, they should start doing the right thing.

I dunno -- I kind of think that if there wasn't this ad, the war supporters would have found something else to latch on to.

Surely the DC establishment is secretly grateful to Moveon for providing them with a ready made excuse to kow tow before Bush and, if I may so put it, 'betray us'. Not that they would have had any difficulty finding another if Moveon hadn't placed its ad.

The idea that we have to waste time defending a stupid Move On ad is just idiotic.

All this nonsense is proof of the stupidity of the ad. If it was intended to forward our position on Iraq.

If it was intended to rally support for Move On, it was a smashing success.

What dupes the Left blogs are.

What JohnMcG said. I mean moveon shouldn't have claimed to have invented the internet or fallen for the forged Killian memo but there must be some reason that there is alwas something no ?

On the other hand it is not over. Conference committees remember ? The republicans have to pass a defence appropriations bill and, if Democrats in the House mandate dwell time equal to in Iraq time, the conference committee can put it in the report which can't be filibustered and we can have a redo on the veto game.

Nobody except for the shrieking ninnies in DC care about that ad. It's not a big deal. And the reason it's not a big deal is because - gasp! - MOST AMERICANS AGREE WITH IT. Look at the polls. The ad said exactly, I repeat, exactly what most people already know to be true. Look at the polls now, nobody was rallied by that miserable testimony or that horrid late night speech. Americans want to get out of Iraq and anyone and everyone associated with the Iraq war is poison... including Petreaus. Get that through your thick skull DC.

They came into our town and messed it all up. That's the attitude of the Washington press corps and insiders. It's a tribal, geographical reaction just like the reaction against Bill and Hillary. How dare some jerks from California attack a General?

I agree with you that the ad was dumb. It gave the Republicans something to talk about and to rally their nutso base. American public opinion, however, will not sway. Everyone sees the Senate and press talking about some ad and they think, "Who cares? Why the hell aren't they ending this war?"

It might be constructive to imagine the view of things 30-50 years from now- what info will be in college textbooks, documentaries? What the government did or didn't do to end the war? Yes. The MoveOn ad? Not a friggin' chance.

Everyone knows that the Democrats don't have the votes to end this war (what with Joementum ensuring Democratic control of the Senate). Everyone knows that there is no historical precedent for one party in Congress, even the one in charge, single handedly ending a war which the executive is dead set to continue (or maybe even to escalate). This war will not end till the Decider's term is over, period. It is just not possible whichever way you slice or dice it. Well other than the Republicans in Congress deserting en masse and joining with the Dems. We all know the chances of that happening.

So what can the Dems do? The main criticism seems that they did not play their hand better even though in the end they would have to cave in (compromise?) anyway. That they are amateurs and got outmaneuvered. They didn't do a better PR job. By contrast, as some point out, the GOP are better tacticians and would have handled a similar situation better. So that's the problem i.e. the Congressional Dems are not as crafty/manipulative as the Republicans. I don't know if that is necessarily a bad thing. Haven't we had enough of the GOP and its shameful tactics? The problem is not tactics; it is the overall strategy which the Dems CAN’T CHANGE BY THEMSELVES. The war is a huge tragedy and it is shameful that our soldiers still die because people are not willing to admit they made a mistake. But this is the President's war. This is the GOP’s war. That is why we are still there. And I think the voters know that.

And the reason it's not a big deal is because - gasp! - MOST AMERICANS AGREE WITH IT.

do you have data that show most Americans agree with "Betrayus" ? because that, that one word, is the only part of the ad that's being talked about.

MoveOn might've had a good point with the rest of the ad, but it was betrayed by that one word.

I guess I don't care what the right-wing thought "Betray Us" meant or what their reaction was. (I doubt they would have reacted well to any MoveOn ad that questionned Petraeus.) I care what the general public takes from this whole thing, and from what I can see the General's testimony didn't move anybody. What exactly is the downside of this ad? What damage was done? Do people think that the war is being prolonged because a grand compromise was scuttled by this ad?

cleek, speaking of "data," do you have "data" to show that most americans give a good god-damn about that ad? i sure don't.

. And the reason it's not a big deal is because - gasp! - MOST AMERICANS AGREE WITH IT

You can agree with the sentiment behind the ad, and even with the majority of the ad's copy, and still find the ad offensive. That's pretty common, actually.

The ad was a moronic own-goal. Fine. That's how you learn. Move On will do better the next time around. As you note, the vast majority of the country doesn't care about the issue one way or the other. The issue should just die, and probably would but for the constant defenses people make out of...gawd knows.

I wrote on the morning the ad came out,

"It's a stupid, counterproductive, distracting ad.
The focus oughtta be on the numbers, but the noise about this stupid ad will practically drown it out.
Yes, that's because the GOP is immoral, noisy, and fact-averse, and because the media sucks. But that's the lay of the land."

And I think I was right. Yes, the GOP would have done anything to avoid discussing the realities of Iraq. But the ad was an easy thing for them to seize on.

Oh, cut it out, Matt, you know damn well that if they hadn't used "Betray Us" in the ad, the wingers would have been all over them for questioning St. Petreaus anyway.

Dammit, the man dishonered the uniform by allowing himself to be used as Bush's personal political spokesbeing, and he deserved it.

"This war will not end till the Decider's term is over, period. It is just not possible whichever way you slice or dice it."

The Democrats don't have to fund it. They don't have to pass a funding measure. They could easily block the upcoming $200 billion request. That they don't seems to be inexcusable cowardice. Furthermore, this is a pattern of behavior we're talking about. Its not just funding the occupation; the Democrats capitulate on spying, just as they capitulated on the Supreme Court Justices.

If these capitulations were part of some backroom deal to guarantee a tax increase, or funding of SChip, or some other progressive measures, I'd understand. However, if they aren't, they are evidence of pure political cowardice.

That's how you learn. Move On will do better the next time around.

Saw the Moveon spokesman, whose name I don't know (yet), debating the validity of Petraus's testimony with Laura Ingraham on the Today show this morning.

A few weeks ago, that debate would have been between Laura Ingraham and, say, Ana Marie Cox, both of whom would have agreed that one cannot accuse a general being badly wrong about anything important. Moveon gives intelligent views a seat at the table, something that has been sorely lacking.

Cleek notes that Democrats have been accused, regularly, of quite literal treason. Yet somehow, cleek fails to note the success of that language, and fails to congratulate Moveon for being more restrained.

What would have been a better way to get the numbers out? How, exactly, were the Democrats going to get the message out that there are real doubts about Pretraeus? Maybe through Joe Biden on Meet the Press? And I don't mean to political junkies, but to the general public.

Frankly I don't give a toss for the left of centre crowd in Washington. Yhe next time I see a Democratic strategist I am going to give him a sharp kick in the ass ( and her, too). The Washington crowd, both left and right, have pissed me off. Two members of my family are on their third tours in Iraq. I know what they endure. And these assholes in their air conditioned offices and think tanks are talking about strategies and values.

Five of us, all relations, will now donate all we can to MoveOn. If the ad scares the bejeejus out of both side they must be doing something right. As for us Democrats and Republicans (two of my crowd are moderate Repubs) we are not going to donate to either side, period.

I have to agree with lambert strether. This was an effort by MoveOn to change the terms of the debate, to move away from this idea that Petreaus was somehow the voice of Moses come down from the mountain. The American people already go this but Washington still has its head up its ass.

The Democratic Congress is a pathetic joke. If they had any political skills at all they'd be dominating the Republicans at every turn. Every single issue cuts in their favor and yet they lose nearly every single battle. If this had been an ad by a major right-wing organization (imagine that, a right-wing organization having to take out an ad to get their position across, but let's pretend for a moment) the Republicans would have fallen all over themselves to defend and justify it. They would have screamed and yelled about the Democrats wasting Congress's time with such a stupid resolution and the resolution would have gotten not a single Republic vote. Thus is the conventional wisdom shifted.

But the Democrats, cowering and pissing themselves, fell over one another to make sure everyone knew they disagreed with the ad and the majority of the American public and that Patreaus was an unassailable saint! Really, I've been forgiving these guys and giving them the benefit of the doubt since time immemorial and saying, yeah, they suck but at least they aren't Republicans. Now, I just don't know anymore.

I agree with the content of the ad. That's why I'm angry with MoveOn for putting the inflammatory headline on it that has provided a distraction from any discussion of the numbers and how they were cooked. No one in the media is talking about the facts of the ad, but just endlessly blathering about whether using the word "betray" was vile or merely inappropriate.

That reaction was completely predictable, and MoveOn should have realized that the ad would be counterproductive with that headline.

I don't give a damn whether the ad was civil or not. I care whether it was effective, and as far as I can tell the situation is slightly worse for our side as a result of the ad, since the moronic "Democrats are against the troops" storyline has been reinforced while nothing positive has been accomplished.

It seems pretty clear to me that if there'd been no MoveOn ad, the Wurlitzer would have found something else to be outraged about --- something some Democratic politician said that could be taken out of context and distorted, some question asked of Petraeus, some line buried deep in an ignored diary on DailyKos.

The more I think about this the ad was, dare I say, absolutely Rovian? Attack your opponent's strength. Instead of being afraid of Petraeus, go right after him. He is really all the Republicans have right now in the Iraq debate.

While I think the ad's headline was a mistake, the Senate resolution condemning the ad was an even bigger one. I don't understand why the leadership allowed the bill to come to the floor, and I'm disgusted that half the Democrats voted for the thing. The Republicans stood together against Boxer's resolution without fearing they were going to be viewed as unpatriotic for voting against it.

KCinDC, you can't ask the "leadership" to overcome half their caucus in terms of coming to the floor. Half of the dems wanted a chance to criticize moveon. that's not harry reid's fault.

KCinDC:

Nobody would have known this ad existed without the headline! Nobody would have read our wonderful numbers! But maybe you are right and we should have published a careful dissection of how the methodology Petraeus used to calculate sectarian violence was flawed. That would have been a headline grabber, alright.

How are you reconciling

How, exactly, were the Democrats going to get the message out that there are real doubts about Pretraeus?

with

I care what the general public takes from this whole thing, and from what I can see the General's testimony didn't move anybody.

Do you really think the latter is because of the ad? People have made up their minds that Iraq was a mistake and is a disaster, and the ad--best efforts aside--can't harm that.

Your 'Center-Left' establishment - presumably the Dem spinners and consultants - seems to be a little right of, say, Reagan in 1984, Matt. If you could freeze in amber the zeitgeist of our America, an America too dumb to tie its shoes, I think you could do no better than the reaction to the Move On ad. Take, for instance, the corrupt and seedy column by the Washington Post's Michael Dobb yesterday. Dobb is, I presume, one of those center left types. His fact check of the Move On ad finds, unsurprisingly, that it got the facts right. This does not prevent Dobb, a man who doesn't reveal in his column that he is a member of a think tank headed by the Ambassador to Iraq, C. Crocker, from claiming that the ad is full of lies. It turns out lies means not giving General Petraeus' words the most generous interpretation possible, and, if that is not an option, simply pretending that Petraeus did not say things that he did, in fact, say. It was a sloppy smear, and an amusing one: the idea of the Washington Post using a 'fact' checker to check the facts in an anti-war ad is all too ironic, since the Post is graced with the bugeyed editorials of Fred Hiatt, notorious for the spin, lies, and lunacy that has become the Post editorial trademark.

The juxtaposition of the condemnation of Move On org and the State Department shuffle trying to pressure the Iraqi government to put up with Blackwater's policy of treating Iraqis as potential hunting trophies yesterday was excellent - a timely reminder of what a disgusting beast this country has become,a sort of souped up version of the Confederate States as a world power - illiterate, immoral, and racist to the core. It turns out that, like so many slimy, immoral and disgusting policies, the Pentagon policy of promoting and hiring mercenaries originated with the Clinton white house of blessed memory. According to Dana Priest, it was William Cohen who made the big push to hire the Dyncorps et al. And the establishment tone about the mercenaries, in both the Post and the NYT, is that it is all a done deal: it is impossible for these people to think that privatized militaries are a bad idea. The story is treated not as an event on the moral or political plane, but purely in terms of PR - how are the U.S. and Maliki to save face while retaining a band of thugs to guard the Green Zone? It is as if it is set in stone that we have to have the thugs, that the thugs have to be hired by the Pentagon, that there is nothing we can do about it, that it would be 'too expensive' to try to, like, replace them with Army personnel answering, however remotely, to the people.

Too expensive in this trillion and a half dollar war. That is too laughable to fact check.

Map, I agree that the ad wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the attention without the headline. The problem is that the attention it has gotten hasn't helped us. The discussion of the ad isn't about the numbers or whether Petraeus is really independent of Bush. It's all about the word "betray" and how unhinged the left is and how much we hate the troops.

Not all publicity is good publicity. What have we gained from the coverage of the ad?

Cleek notes that Democrats have been accused, regularly, of quite literal treason. Yet somehow, cleek fails to note the success of that language, and fails to congratulate Moveon for being more restrained.

i wish i knew what you were getting at. i have a feeling that you think you've taken me to task on something. but it's hard to tell since you've buried your point in snark.

i failed to note the success of that language? ummm. it's been wildly successful in motivating the GOP base. they can't order a fucking Happy Meal these days without accusing someone of treason. why should i have noted that ?

and i should congratulate MoveOn for... what? for not running a picture of Petraeus with a little Hitler moustache, or for not demanding in 400pt Helvetica that he be executed for treason ? i should congratulate them for not fucking up worse than they actually did ? that's just plain stupid.

maybe you think the Dems should crank up the rhetoric and start accusing the GOP of treason, in return? well, i'm afraid i, like many people, think that kind of rhetoric is poisonous. and i, like many people, have a long history of denouncing the use of such rhetoric from the GOP. it would be hypocritical of me to start encouraging the Dems to start using it too; and more importantly, i'd be encouraging people to lie, since i don't think people who vote Republican are necessarily traitors (confused and wrong maybe, but not treasonous).

so many questions...

The Democrats simply don't understand that the terms of the national debate shift to the right every time they attack their base. The Republicans understand this. Ronald Regan kicked off his campaign in Adelphia, Miss. Bush went to Bob Jones. Thus, those of you who criticize the ad for being ineffective are missing the point; the ad is only ineffective because the Democrats criticized it!

What can the party do to MoveOn, anyway? Not allow it to sit in on strategy sessions about the best way to look feckless?

Paul writes:


I agree with you that the ad was dumb. It gave the Republicans something to talk about and to rally their nutso base.

That nutsos are reality-based is a questionable assumption at best. If the Conservatives aren't rallying the nutso base with a MoveOn ad, they'll be doing it because something an assistant professor somewhere said in the last 50 years caused a kitten to die. At this point, the base is a closed loop: Entirely circular and reflexive. Let's take the first step here and admit we're powerless to affect the Kool-Aid drinkers.

That means, from the standpoint of reinforcing winger narratives, the ad is a wash by definition. It's always going to be something. How the ad nets out has to be measured not only against what happened after, but by what would have happened after given other alternatives.

So, as political football says above:


Saw the Moveon spokesman, whose name I don't know (yet), debating the validity of Petraus's testimony with Laura Ingraham on the Today show this morning.

A few weeks ago, that debate would have been between Laura Ingraham and, say, Ana Marie Cox, both of whom would have agreed that one cannot accuse a general being badly wrong about anything important. Moveon gives intelligent views a seat at the table, something that has been sorely lacking.

Good. That shoves the Overton Window left. That's a win.


The Washington establishment hasn't been so out of touch since the 1970s and I don't mean about Vietnam. I'm talking about rising crime, rising taxes, rising inflation, an increasing sense that the underclass was being rewarded for not working, and an increasing sense that government spending was out of control.

The conventional wisdom in Washington was that the emerging conservative movement formed around the candidacy of Goldwater was almost unmentionably loopy - a relic of the past rather than an auspice (or omen depending on your view) of the future; you didn't take them seriously in polite conversation.

But even as Mr. Nixon's "silent majority" may have cringed at their hyperbole and certainly didn't want their policy agenda enacted in whole there was some kind of fundamental agreement between the broad center of the electorate and the new right.

I doubt the broad center of the electorate today wants a total withdrawal from Iraq but they do want most of the troops out over the next year. And just like in the 1970s they're tired of being lied to taken from.

KCinDC:

How do you know the publicity didn't help us? (By the way, I don't know either.) All I know is that there wasn't going to be a discussion of the "numbers" anyways, except on blogs. There never is. Now, however, a lot of people know that there is a real question about whether they should take Petraeus' word on how things are going in Iraq. For better or worse, the message that Petraeus might not be a straight-shooter is out there now.

I completly disagree, Dems need to keep using the Betrayal theme. The occupation of Iraq is not going to go well, no amount of spin will help the reality in Iraq. And the theme will frame the upcomming revalations about war profitiers stealing billions, mercinaries killing civilians etc. etc.. The repugs are scared to death that the truth of thier betrayal of americian values will stick.

Saw the Moveon spokesman, whose name I don't know (yet), debating the validity of Petraus's testimony with Laura Ingraham on the Today show this morning.

just for the record, lemme say that i'm glad this happened. if that ad has positive effects, i'm all for them, and i hope they outweigh any negatives.

occam's comic:

Excellent point. I think there are a lot of people out there who already have a sense of being betrayed over getting into this war and the happy talk since. I know I feel betrayed, but I wouldn't call anyone who has supported the war a traitor. When did those two words become synonymous?

I hear there is speculation that this question was pre-arranged with Bill Sammon of the right-wing Washington Examiner.

Don't you think collusion to defraud the press might be a good story? Is anyone on it?

I know I feel betrayed, but I wouldn't call anyone who has supported the war a traitor. When did those two words become synonymous?

When used with regards to a soldier? Are you kidding me?

No, I'm not kidding you. I guess I feel that the commander of our troops in Iraq has the obligation to be straight with us about how things are going over there. Not fulfillling that obligation, even for what the general may believe are noble purposes, is still a betrayal.

cleek -

There are two separate arguments here, and you're so tied up in knots that I can't figure out which you are making.

Was the Moveon ad ineffective? You seem to be arguing that it was ineffective the way that the Republicans' "treason" accusations have been ineffective. In this, you are simply mistaken. The Republicans' extremist rhetoric has been very effective.

Was the Moveon ad inherently immoral, the way the Republicans' "treason" accusations are? I'd say no. By seemingly being unable to distinguish between the words "betray" and "treason" you buy into the Republicans' false frame on this, but there really is a difference. I'm comfortable saying that Petraus's testimony was a betrayal - that's a reasonable and moderate description. Was it tantamount to treason? I'd say no if that subject was ever brought up by anyone, but it hasn't been brought up by anyone yet.


The DC left-of-center crowd is a.) incredibly timid and b.) not far left of center.

To change the dialogue and break the centrist, pro-war hex, someone's going to have to stick their neck out. The Democrats won't, so thank God for MoveOn. Even if I thought the ad were a mistake (I have no way of knowing, and neither do any of the people who've jumped to that conclusion) I'd just hope that MoveOn would come back again just as hard, but do it a little better.

In general, I think that screams of rage from the right, from the center-right media, and from loser Democrats should be taken as >evidence that something's working. That's ordinary common sense, especially when national polls have not shown any evidence of popular indignation from non-wingers.

I guess I feel that the commander of our troops in Iraq has the obligation to be straight with us about how things are going over there. Not fulfillling that obligation, even for what the general may believe are noble purposes, is still a betrayal.

And? You're already on Move On's side; they didn't need to spend the money on an ad for you.

Yes, map, "betray" doesn't necessarily imply treason against the country, but it was completely predictable that the right wing would spin it that way and that the media would go along.

I hope that those saying this moved the Overton window or otherwise helped us are correct, and that the positive effects outweigh the negatives. I'm just not seeing it.

Was the Moveon ad ineffective? You seem to be arguing that it was ineffective the way that the Republicans' "treason" accusations have been ineffective.

err, no. i'm not arguing that at all.

Was the Moveon ad inherently immoral, the way the Republicans' "treason" accusations are? I'd say no.

yes.

By seemingly being unable to distinguish between the words "betray" and "treason" you buy into the Republicans' false frame on this

trea·son (trē'zən) pronunciation
n.

1. Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
2. A betrayal of trust or confidence.

mm k ?

if you're relying on people to choose your preferred definition of an emotionally-charged word, instead of one that is closely related to the topic at hand, you will fail.

Was it tantamount to treason? I'd say no if that subject was ever brought up by anyone, but it hasn't been brought up by anyone yet.

are you really saying nobody has accused Petraeus of treason ? a little Googling should clear that up.

SomeCallMeTim:

Who are the people this ad is going to offend? I don't know if this ad helps, but I really can't see how it hurts. I'm not really on MoveOn's side here, but I really am sick of depending on congressional hearings to get our message out to the general public.

I have really lost my fear of right-wing talking points since 2004. It's been a 12-step program, but no matter what Republicans have been saying support for the war has been shrinking steadily. They are really not going to be able to move public opinion on this war. I think their best chance to do that was parading the well-educated Petraeus before the public. For some reason that didn't work. I don't know if the ad had anything to do with that, but there seem to be a lot of people who predicted a Petraeus bump scratching their heads right now. Like I said earlier, it may not have helped but I can't imagine how it hurt.

The mistake was simple, Democrats should never have backed down from the predictable response of "never apologize Republicans," and they should have agreed with and reinforced the premise of the add--that there are questions in the data that don't square with the GAO and NIE reports. Doing this they would not have come off as the ridiculous losers Republicans portrayed them as, focused on the substance, and appeared principled.

Backing down, condemning your own supporters, and apologizing for tough talk just makes the Democrats look the the emasculated wimps they are being portrayed as.

KCinDC:

What negatives are you talking about? That's not saying there won't be any, but really, I don't see any. Republicans have been saying since 2004 that there are going to be consequences for opposing this war in all its forms and Republican support just keeps going down.

>Two serious questions need to be asked; 1) what would a Republican congress have done differently than this congress? 2) What have the Democrats been given by the adminsitration in return for the cave-ins?

I agree with this from Michigander (from way up there). These are crucial questions. And I think the devastating conclusion is that the country would have been better off had the Democrats not retaken the Congress last year. Back when they were powerless, the party remained pure. Now the Democrats also "own" the Iraq war, the erosion of civil liberties, and the expansion of executive power. The party has been corrupted. I won't vote next year. Seriously - why bother?

I don't really want to get into this whole debate. I'll just say that the ad would have gone over a lot better if they'd gone with "Delay Us" instead of "Betray Us."

On the whole, we should probably just be thankful that the US forces in Iraq aren't commanded by a General named Buckus.

The feeling outside the beltway is that the American Washington class has betrayed the public with the Iraq War, MoveOn is just reflecting the public mood and making sure the betrayal label sticks with the War Party and its leaders. This is why the right wing monkeys are so desperate about this; the truth is political cyanide for them. So they are trying the old stab in the back routine, but for many reasons including a lack of the draft and no general social unrest, that right wing idea just won't have any traction outside the 27%ers minds and the gullible traditional media pundits who think the right are 'real murika'

The 70% American voting majority that the Dems are going to build their landslide off of are already with MoveOn, all they really want to see is some fire in the belly from Democratic leaders. Interstingly, Hillary gets it, which to be honest surprised the hell out of me. If you don't fight back you can't win and if you shoot your base you lose ground, and trust me at 3 million middle class educated members, MoveOn is an important chunk of the Dem base. All demonization attempts of Movon are just so much politiking BS from Republican operatives. MoveOn is as American as apple pie, part of the 70%ers.

When congressional dems realise all this and act accordingly they will get their approval numbers back. Until then, leadership seems to be shifting very quickly to the Dem presidential candidates.

Who are the people this ad is going to offend? I don't know if this ad helps, but I really can't see how it hurts.

Right. And I, the Republicans, the Dem politicians, and various Dem-friendlies in this thread, are claiming that such people do exist, and therefor it hurts or could have hurt Dem chances to control the govt. You might be right, we might be right. But that disagreement of fact is controlling.

Is there any actual evidence that the MoveOn ad had an negative effect on public opinion? I haven't seen anyone bother to bring any forward. It's really astonishing that so many Democrats leaped to that conclusion.

If there isn't, it was a good ad. As I said, the predictable screams from the media and the Republicans should be taken as evidence that the ad was a good one.

Treason requires puposely working to help the enemy. I am not accusing Petraeus of that and I think you would be hard pressed to accuse MoveOn of that. If Petraeus had testified, put both sides on the table in a fair way, and said I still think we should follow the course I have laid out, I'd have absolutely no problem with that and I wouldn't have criticized him a bit. I may not have agreed with him, but I wouldn't have criticized him because military commanders are expected to make their best recommendations. I would never accuse a military officer of betrayal for making a bad decision. That happens all the time.

"There is no such thing as bad publicity"

I know what MoveOn.org is, and clearly every commenter on this thread has a pretty good idea of what it is and where it is coming from. And I know who General Petraeus is and what his three previous roles were and I suspect most people who read Matt on a daily basis would score pretty high on that score as well.

But the Inside the Beltway decision that "Betrayus by MoveOn" is going to launch some huge backlash assumes that the public by and large knows who is Petraeus is and what MoveOn does. I am not sure that is such a good bet, it is not like the MSM has been doing such a bangup job of educating the public on any of this to start with.

One question is whether the American people by and large are so invested in Generals as to care. Soldiers on the ground? Well yeah. Soldiers IN the ground? Hell yeah. Generals who only leave air-conditioning if surrounded by squads of civilian mercenaries? Well we'll see. Somehow I fail to recollect a whole bunch of backlash when Cheney and Wolfowitz simply dismissed the professional judgement of the Chief of Staff of the Army. Who by my count had the same count of stars and the same amount of medals as Petraeus. Didn't help General Shinseki.

As for MoveOn, well their visibility just went way up, and as noted their spokesman was all over the networks in the last few days and in my opinion smoking the hapless wingnuts they put up against him and for that matter Wolf Blitzer as well.

Time will tell but from my corner of the US it looks like the MSM just bit at that tasty lure and has found itself hooked. It would be different if the MoveOn people generally visibly looked like steroetypical DFHs, instead anyone who tuned in the Situation Room probably concluded 'That makes sense'.

It is one thing to demonize Ward Churchill when Bush numbers were in the 90s. Demonizing an anti-war organization whose position is backed by 60% plus of the American people? Not so easy. I checked the MoveOn site a little while ago. They don't seem worried.

Critizing MoveOn for their ad is allowing oneself to be played for a sucker. The ad was a perfectly appropriate message in these dangerous times. The military brass is obligated to provide unvarnished, professional advice to the civilian leadership which is its master. There was ample evidence, widely publicized before Betrayus' testimony, that his presentation would be utterly flawed and biased in favor of the administration's policies. Moveover, Betrayus already played politics when he tried to affect the 2004 election with his ridiculous Washington Post op-ed, in which he hyped all the wonderful progress in Iraq.

There is tremendous human misery in Iraq these days. And a little outrage on the part of the progressive elements of society against those who work to perpetuate the war, is not morally condemnable.

Repuglicans have every reason to take umbrage with MoveOn - their ad was based on uncontrovertible and damning facts. MoveOn, and every American, has every right (maybe even a duty) to critizise him and every other enabler of our continuing national disaster.

Olbermann stepped up on TV and said all the right things. Bush used Petraeus as a shill in a way that dishonored Petraeus's uniform. He developed this idea in some detail. He also pointed out that wingers have not been at all shy about smearing military men when it's useful for the to do so.

One thing I will never understand is why it's the best educated, most professional Democrats who are most hopelessly inept and cowardly in dealing with public opinion.

SomeCallMeTim:

All I'm saying is that those people haven't been moved for two years by right-wing talking points. Why do you think this one is going to be the deal-breaker? You could be right, but I'm trying to keep this objective and take the fear all Democrats have felt over the last few years out of the equation. Based on the best evidence we have, polls, this stuff is not working anymore. People hate this war and know that Republicans will not end it.

It is time to stop talking about this forever.

People hate this war and know that Republicans will not end it.

Which was true well before the ad. We also know--though I can't point to anything, I recall it being polled--that people really, really like the military. Which is it's important to be careful with our language about military people. Particularly during an active war. This, I suspect, is one of those things that either seem self-evident or is never-evident.

"2. A betrayal of trust or confidence."

So a vote of no confidence, or claiming somebody is lying is the same as accusing them of treason?

Petraeus is Petraeus, not the military. Bush is hiding behind a general, and the general is hiding behind "the troops". Surely it's possible to get behind that kind of thing, instead of caving in immediately. The Republicans, as I've said, are completely willing to criticize generals.

Jesus, I can't believe democrats are even debating this!

Democrats are gonna have to stand up and lead the debate. Stop being pussies and speak the truth! Patraeus DID betray us!! That bullshit he spouted last week should have been ripped to shreds by the Democratic leaders.
After 4 years of war where we've been told all these lies about the successes in Iraq and we're debating about a fucking ad!?!?! All of you that are criticing MOVE.ON need to decide what they are really objecting to. Do you want to end the war? If yes, you should want to do anything you can to end it. This whiny ass, "OMG! he called Petreaus a bad name" shit has to end. Grow some balls people.

SomeCallMeTim:

Like Bruce Reed said above, people really care about the soldiers on the ground and I think they are not going to be happy with anyone, military or not, who stands in the way of them coming home. Back at the start of the "surge" I think you would have had more of a case.

Right on, D.

The end result of this whole escapade is that MoveOn has been painted as a radical, whacko, anti-American organization that can't be trusted. They were even condemned by the Senate.

MoveOn is a large group and will have a lot to say, no doubt, in the next election cycle. The right wants nothing more than to destroy their credibility and their legitimacy.

The Senate Dems who voted to condemn the ad played right into the Republican's hands.

Now, that was dumb.

. Surely it's possible to get behind that kind of thing, instead of caving in immediately.

Again, no one's saying you can't attack Bush or Petreus. They're saying that there are better and worse ways of doing so, and "Betray Us" was worse. As I said above, if you have to explain a joke, it's a shitty joke, no matter how clever and insightful it is. That people predictably have to offer a defense of "Betray Us" is a tell.

SomeCallMeTim:

IMO, I think Democrats could stand to be a lot less careful in what they say and how they say it.

"That said, I'm staggered by the amount of emphasis that people inside this town are placing on this."

I'm staggered at the amount of emphasis the netroots are placing on it. Who cares? Lots of pyrotechnics to be sure, but the situation on the ground in both Washington and in Iraq remains the same. People have grossly elevated symbolism over substance.

Do you want to end the war? If yes, you should want to do anything you can to end it.
D., who do you think is disagreeing with that? The question is whether the ad helps or hurts efforts to end the war. Doing "anything" doesn't include doing things that actually work against your goals.

Your anger is understandable, but letting your anger guide you isn't always the most effective way to win in politics.

And I agree with JJF, though to be fair MoveOn had already been pretty well painted that way already.

I assume that the 22 Democrats who supported the measure are co sponsoring a statement condemning the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth for their statement:

"It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us). Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war."

It is unthinkable that such an accusation of betrayal against a fine officer could go uncondemned by the Senate.

Matt,

There's an objective test to see whether the "Betrayus" ad was dumb or not: just track MoveOn's fundraising. My prediction: they will raise more money than ever before; much of this money will come out of money that would otherwise go to groups like the DSCC, who will then be in the position of begging MoveOn for help.

Face it, the only reason Congress's approval rating is as high as it is is that so many Republicans approve of Congress now.