The Case for DC

Sommer Mathis interviewed by Garrett Graf:

What makes Washington special? Every day you can meet someone who turns out to be the smartest, most well-informed person you’ll ever know on a given subject. It’s like living in the best university in the world but without all those essays to write.

Indeed. On the other hand, Washington also kind of sucks. If you could take the people, and the whole "the government's here and so's your job" thing, and put it all someplace else, that'd probably be better.

Comments

Sorry, but on the face of it her statement sounds pretty silly to me. To be fair, it all hinges on the range of subjects she's talking about and what she means by "you'll ever know". But even if the range of subjects turns out to be very narrow US politics stuff or she anticipates not meeting anybody outside of Washington the statement would still be pretty silly.

Posted by novakant | September 2, 2007 6:15 PM

What exactly do you think sucks about DC? Just the fact that it has the government here? Or is it the weather? Or the lack of purple mountains' majesty? Or the way the State Avenues screw up the flow of traffic? On the whole, I think it's pretty livable, now that there's a Metro system and air conditioning.

Posted by Barry | September 2, 2007 6:15 PM

I have long thought that the US seat of government should move to a new, randomly-selected state capital every 5 years, and that the Cabinet agencies should likewise be distributed to randomly selected state capitals permanently.

Cranky

Posted by Cranky Observer | September 2, 2007 6:21 PM

Living in DC and now a off-and-on visitor joining tens of thousands of supplicants to the high and mighty Government bureaucrats and lobbyist middlemen lawyers who "oil the way"....I've long thought we ought to disassemble the Imperial City and scatter it's branches across the country.

The Beltway Bandits would scream, but I think that it would be great to send Commerce out to Michigan, put the 1/2 military brass in Texas, half in Ohio, move Agriculture to Arkansas, Treasury to California. split Congress up into 4 regions like Georgia, Colorado, New York and Oregon.
SCOTUS goes to 9 justices in 9 states.

Let them go the way many corporations have gone - abandon "HQ" except for a small staff and have presence in multiple locales. Let them teleconference like the rest of us.
It would be good for the nation, and eliminate the "single nuke wipes out all of Gov't" theory.

Same with monuments and museums.

Why put war memorials in a place that had less people fight in them than any state? Or have a Museum of Aviation or Science and technology in a city that didn't contribute a single showcased innovation to either museum. Send something to Nebraska, Iowa and CT, they need some sort of tourist sttraction.

Posted by Chris Ford | September 2, 2007 6:32 PM

I dunno, I visited my sister there in February and the place seemed really nice to me. Wide streets, nice parks, reminded me a bit of San Francisco. Also the DC metro is a clone of BART, except for the fact that in DC it actually arrives on time. Imagine that!

Posted by Mr. Noah | September 2, 2007 7:52 PM

Every day you can meet someone who turns out to be the smartest, most well-informed person you’ll ever know on a given subject.

Ah, but I already do--every morning when I look in the mirror.

Posted by James Gary | September 2, 2007 7:53 PM

I forgotten who said it first, but DC is more of an industry town than any other -- even Hollywood or Detroit. And it suffers mightily for it.

Posted by Sangfroid826 | September 2, 2007 8:18 PM

Why put war memorials in a place that had less people fight in them than any state?

So you don't think Cheney's "home" state of Wyoming should have any memorials? DC had more citizens die in service in WWII than several states, including Wyoming and Montana.

Posted by MikeJ | September 2, 2007 8:41 PM

Every day you can meet someone who turns out to be the smartest, most well-informed person you’ll ever know on a given subject.

This is true if you never leave DC. DC is full of people who turn out to be the smartest, most well-informed person in DC on that subject. That person is likely a young person working for a think tank or a guy who picked up a sinecure from an industry-backed non-profit promoting their view.

The person who actually is the smartest, most well-informed person on that subject is likely elsewhere, in a place where knowledge of that subject is much more crucial.

Posted by Tyro | September 2, 2007 8:43 PM

How 'bout some good ol' folksy place in tha heartland?
Jesus, I don't live in DC but it seems like nobody gets crapped on like this city does.

Posted by berger | September 2, 2007 8:44 PM

Yeah, the "smartest person" stuff is obvious bull-shit. Does anyone serious _really_ think that the smartest people thinking about _any_ problem are in DC, working for the government or not? I'm deeply, deeply skeptical on that, in part because most of the big jobs there are highly political, and that tells very badly for the search for the truth on some subject.

Posted by Matt (not the famous one) | September 2, 2007 8:58 PM

You don't like Bostom. You don't like DC. Gosh, Matt, you're hard to please. If our seat of government was ever relocated, it'd probably be to some place like Columbus, Ohio or Charlotte. Then you WOULD be sorry.
It's OK to come from New York and think that's the best place of all. Maybe it is. But don't rub it in. That's what makes the rest of us sore.

Posted by JMG | September 2, 2007 9:05 PM

And she hasn't even met me yet. I'm like a paunchy version of wikipedia.

Actually, what I like most about DC is probably its lack of hipness vis a vis New York, San Francisco or Boston. It means that you can get into that art film on a Friday night or see a great act at the 9:30 club instead of a theatre. If you live in the city, it is compact and pretty easy to get around. There's a lot of good food here in a variety of price ranges, the musueums are free (thanks American people -- we'd still rather have a vote in Congress) and the winters aren't too bad having come from Boston. It's also ridiculously lush here in Spring with flowering tress growing all over the damn place -- pretty for the eyes, tough on the allergies.

Posted by Klein's tiny left nut | September 2, 2007 9:38 PM

Why put war memorials in a place that had less people fight in them than any state?
So you don't think Cheney's "home" state of Wyoming should have any memorials? DC had more citizens die in service in WWII than several states, including Wyoming and Montana.
Posted by MikeJ

Bullshit.
For starters, most of DC's residents were not allowed in combat troops in WWII. Wyomings and Montana's were, and they had more people anf a higher volunteer rate.

But the point is why must all national tribute to national accomplishment and sacrifice be funded and placed in one Imperial City?

Why must most Federal Government power, influence, and money distribution to States be controlled by Court Mandarins who operate in two square miles of the Imperial City, and by elected officials that have so many that become Mandarins themselves and never return to their homestate?

Why MUST the MLK Memorial be in DC? Why not Chicago? Why MUST the bulk of upper echelon and day-to-day apparachniks of the Federal Government employees live in Virgina, Maryland, and DC and pay taxes there?

We all know that without the Fed Gov'ts largess, that DC - without the Fed Gov't - would be another Compton or Newark.

Posted by Chris Ford | September 2, 2007 9:38 PM

DC lost 3029 army and Army Air Corps soldiers in WWII. Wyoming lost 629. Figures for navy and marine are similar. You can check Montana for yourself. http://www.archives.gov/research/arc/ww2/army-casualties/

So, Chris Ford, you're an offensive, loudmouthed fool. And that last sentence of yours stinks to heaven with its racism.

PS- it's apparatchiks, not niks. If you want to red-bait government workers, at least get your slurs correct.

Posted by Boix | September 2, 2007 10:12 PM

Maybe MikeJ is counting the inhabitants of Arlington National Cemetery as DC citizens--- oh wait Arlington was given back to Virginia in 1846, never mind.

It would be nice if Congressmen could vote from their district and conduct committee meetings by videoconference. It would save Members the expense of maintaining two homes and it would make K Street's efforts to destroy the Republic that much tougher.

Posted by beowulf | September 2, 2007 10:27 PM

Looks like Boix used the same source I did. I wonder why Chris Ford is too stupid to use the archives himself.

Posted by MikeJ | September 2, 2007 10:32 PM

Whenever I see a refutation as clear as MikeJ's and Boix's here, I can't help but think of Woody Allen's bit with Marshall McLuhan in Annie Hall. "You know nothing of my work."

Posted by Brandon Claycomb | September 2, 2007 11:08 PM

I forgotten who said it first, but DC is more of an industry town than any other -- even Hollywood or Detroit. And it suffers mightily for it.

Yeah. I don't know if it qualifies as "suckness", but for somebody born in Detroit (like, say, me), one thing that's always put me off about the DC area is how it's filled with well-educated, well-compensated government supplicants, and hourly wage service workers, with very little in the middle. Absolutely NO blue collar folks, save for the few skilled trades guys supporting any economy. I think this has a lot to do with the very real sociological isolation that afflicts DC.

I like living in the DC area very much, but let's face it: Although there's some valuable scientific work going on here, on the whole this town is nothing but a kind of sump filter for the rivers of money that flow in from the provinces. If memory serves, it's one of the few regions that's unambiguously benefited from the Bush economy.

Posted by sglover | September 2, 2007 11:08 PM

Isn't DC oppressively hot and humid in the summer? It would be nice to relocate the center of government to an area with a reasonable climate, such as Madison, Wisconsin, or Bangor, Maine.

Posted by Father Figure | September 2, 2007 11:22 PM

The answer to MikeJ and Boix misleading stat is that the DC area had huge base staffing during WWII. Navy Barracks at Anacostia, US Marine Corps Barracks, Walter Reed Barracks, War Dept barracks, personnel stationed at Ft Myer and Dt McNair living in the city. Army Air Corps base and Temp barracks at what is now Reagan Airport. Career military then listed their barracks as home. Thus, many who came from other states died listed as "DC resident". They were not DC locals.

I think the two might be right about Wyoming having less casualties because back in the early 40s, DC was a far whiter city (70%) than I realized - before it became 1/4th Gentry and 1/8th middle class and 5/8ths black slums by the late 60s.
That is relevant because blacks were generally barred from combat jobs in WWII except for the media's favorite WWII Vets - the Tuskagee Airmen who were somewhat an experiment. But overall WWII black deaths were under 5% of those serving because they were mostly in rear echelon positions.

So the number of DC locals (whites)eligible for combat in WWII
was more than one would think.

Also, like New Orleans, DC had a much larger population than it does now, before white and black middle class flight. 860,000 in 1950, 579,000 in 1996.

As for saying that without the Fed Gov't largess, DC would be just another Newark or Compton, being "racist"? Gee ...think that might have anything to do with DC vying with Detroit, Newark, and Compton year after year to come in #2 as Murder Capital of America behind usual champion New Orleans?

Boix - So, Chris Ford, you're an offensive, loudmouthed fool. And that last sentence of yours stinks to heaven with its racism.

No, it reflects reality, rather than being a smarmy self-righteous cocksucker like you, Boix.
(Speaking of ad hominems!)

And in Operation Iraqi Freedom, DC has fewer servicemen deaths than any State, lower than Guam and the Virgin Islands, for that matter.

http://icasualties.org/oif/USMap.aspx

Posted by Chris Ford | September 3, 2007 1:26 AM

A few years ago I was sent from Strasbourg to Washington for some conference about building bridges to the Muslim world (a great success as you can see from the headlines). I wanted to check on the dollar-euro exchange rate. I eventually found it in the WAPO - tucked away on page 25 or something along with pork belly futures. On France Info, the public French radio news channel, the exchange rate is given every hour: which goes too far the other way, but yes, Washington is in some ways very provincial. Well, it won't be Persepolis for much longer.

Posted by James Wimberley | September 3, 2007 5:16 AM

sglover,

The blue collar tradesmen who work in DC and the close in suburbs do not live anywhere near DC. Most of them live in Baltimore, Hagerstown, Winchester, or Fredricksburg. On of the odd demographic facts of DC is that DC, Arlington, PG County, Montgomery County, Alexandria, and Fairfax have virtually no blue collar or poor whites. It affects the elected politicians see blue collar whites because they are never expose to them in DC.

Posted by superdestroyer | September 3, 2007 7:35 AM

Suprise

there are "Blue-collar tradesman" some of them even white people living in "DC, Arlington, PG County, Montgomery County, Alexandria, and Fairfax" There are a hell of a lot fewer now, out priced by guvvies and Policy Analysts for the Center for Alternative Policies. Mostly though the tradesmen are underpriced by (illegal) immigrants living close in in NW DC and PG. Many of these latinos prenetnd to be bricklayers, carpenters, etc., thought they are generally unskilled workers.

And yes, you can meet people in DC who are some of the most thoroughly knowledgable people on a given subject, but more likely than not you'll meet Policy Analysts for the Center for Alternative Policies who simply think they are the most thoroughly knowledgable people, though they have never really done anything anywhere. New York, Boston & Chicago are far better places than DC, but if you tried to move the policy assholes out of DC it could ruin a nearby city, sort of like the spike in crime in Houston post-Katrina.

Posted by Jozef | September 3, 2007 8:36 AM

Off to march for Labor this morning?

I've been a union man before I moved to management/pure capitalist

I can't say I begrudge them anything, though you can only feather your own nest but so much

This imigration problem really does keep wages down though,and you never hear leftists draw a connection between slow working class income growth and the 10+ million who work illegally for $10-20 an hour (usually no tax) in major cities while the average nonsupervisiory wage in USA is about $17

Posted by Jozef | September 3, 2007 8:42 AM

It is true that there is almost no working class folks in the District itself and certainly no white working class as you have in other eastern cities. There has also never been a real manufacturing base here, so the blue collar people are mostly in the building trades and in the few industries like printing that exist, albeit in massively shrunken form.

Contrary to what someone else noted, there are plenty of blue collar people in the surrounding suburbs -- the stereotype of Montgomery and Fairfax counties being uniformly white and upper middle class is about twenty years out of date. You would be hard pressed to find two more diverse suburban jurisdictions in America anywhere. Prtince Georges County, the first majority black suburban area in America, has a ton of working class people, both black and white.

The contempt that some have shown for the city here is really the lowest level of juvenile politics. The fact that so many American people go for this kind of drivel says a lot about how we ended up with a fool running the country.

Posted by Klein's tiny left nut | September 3, 2007 9:53 AM

I lived in Arlington for 8 years. I liked it. It was a hell of a lot better than Phoenix and now Raleigh, NC where I currently live. Is that a fair comparison? Probably just as fair as saying DC isn't as good as NYC or LA or maybe even Chicago.

As to where DC has the smartest people, the answer is no. But DC has the type of people who love to tell you they're the smartest people about some subject. And DC has plenty of opportunities where these smart people get to lecture at you. So you can walk away with the impression that it's got the smartest people on some subject.

Posted by dcok | September 3, 2007 10:05 AM

KTLN

Please give us the zip codes of those neighborhoods in PG county where the white blue collar people live. Please provide the zip codes in Fairfax, Arlington, Alexandria, etc.

The City of Alexandira schools are 25% whites and virtually every white kid is in a GT/AP program. Fairfax and Montgomery are filled with upper middle class whites, asain immigrant businessmen and knowledge workers and large number of unskilled Hispanics.

If you look at Montgomery County, the schools have almost no children of blue collar whites and few children of any blue collar families. The schools are either rich whites and asian or poor Hispanics.

Posted by superdestroyer | September 3, 2007 10:10 AM

Superdestroyer,

My law firm represents just about every building trades union in the DC area. The bulk of their collective membership lives in PG. It is true that some of the members have headed further out to Southern Maryland and Anne Arundel in recent years.

Places like Gaithersburg, Germantown, Silver Spring and Wheaton in Montgomery County still have working class white people in them, in addition to the huge numbers of hispanic blue collar workers who now live there.

I did not mention Arlington and Alexandria because they to some degree relect the same demographics as the District, although if you get further away from Old Town, I think there is more diversity in Alexandria than you might think.

Fairfax and Montgomery are the biggest jurisdictions in the area with approximately 1 million people apiece and they are incredibly diverse.

Posted by Klein's tiny left nut | September 3, 2007 10:22 AM

Superdestroyer,

I also did not say that the working class people in Montgomery or Fairfax were primarily white. They are not. I don't know why you would suggest that in Montgomery County there are almost no children of blue collar workers in the public schools. The Hispanic population in both Montgomery County and Fiarfax is quintessentially working class.

Posted by Klein's tiny left nut | September 3, 2007 10:27 AM

In law, I would look to a DC lawyer to be an expert in a regulatory matter - such as predicting what the SEC will do next about regulating hedge funds or private equity. The DC lawyers specializing in that area spend time most regularly with the SEC decision makers. Other than that important sort of expertise (alums knowing what their agency may do), I would not look to DC for experts. Experts in federal death penalty habeas work are probably most concentrated in the CA, best innovators in VC finance matters in NYC, Silicon Valley, Boston, best MD researchers in Boston, LA, Atlanta, NY, Durham, etc.

DC at the guv level is homogeneous compared to LA or SF - go to the Kennedy Center and the yuppies are going to look out on a sea of similar (mostly white, non-immigrant) yuppies. Not enough foreigners - immigrants in LA and SF and NY are the lifeblood that spur innovation. If that means yuppies from US homes have to work smarter to stay in power - so? - that is a necessary feature, not a bug.

A peripetetic government might be nice - like the French in the Renaissance. Barring that, why not require that the typical bureaucrat spend 25% of each year in travel, and 3 tours of overseas duty in a typical 20 year career. Keeping the troops on the move was the Army way in 1950-2007 and may be worth emulating. Downside: expensive and hard on family if not well-managed.

Posted by cfw | September 3, 2007 10:32 AM

cfw,

I don't think you have ever spent much time around DC. The percentage of foreign born people in the metropolitan area is staggering. There are huge numbers of people from, among other places, Vietnam, Iran, Ethiopia, South Asia, Africa, Thailand, China, and on and on.

In the legal field here there is considerable expertise in patent law, all manner of administrative and regulatory practice, Supreme Court and high level appellate practice, labor and employee benefits law, constituional law, including civil liberties issues, and criminal law. DC has one of the largest bars in the country and although it is not the place for transactional work in the way that New York and the Bay Area are, I don't think we take a back seat to many places in the depth of expertise in this area.

There is also a consderable amount of expertise in health care -- both policy and practical -- due to the presence of NIH and the government, although the only true first class hospital in the area is Johns Hopkins in Baltimore.

If I had to pick on a problem with the sense of expertise here is that it tends to be circumscribed by a real conventional wisdom problem -- it is a hard place for people to think outside of the box much because thinking is so hemmed in by political "realities." As a result there tends to be a rather narrow echo chamber at times.

Posted by Klein's tiny left nut | September 3, 2007 10:58 AM

C'mon Matt - this sounds like the ignorant cliche declaration of someone too young to know better. I spent my first 20 years living in NYC, then moved to DC in the late '80s and have been here since for a reason. DC is a beautiful town with green streets, tons of parks, the mountains and ocean just an hour away, and yes - it's nice to live in a multicultural, smart town. Those who complain about DC are just being ignorant and pretentious - try getting out more and - you know - experiencing life.

Posted by Nick | September 3, 2007 11:03 AM

I think Matt is mostly just demonstrating that New Yorkers, despite thinking of themselves as cosmopolitan, are the most parochial people on the planet. I love D.C. - broad streets and short buildings that make the sky visible; street addresses aligned with the street grid; excellent Metro system; very nice selection of steak restaurants; free tourist attractions so you can entertain out-of-town visitors on the cheap; occasional weather excitement in the form of blizzards and hurricanes, but nothing likely to cause serious damage.

It's got its disadvantages of course: high murder rate, crappy bus system, and a truly frustrating combination of heat, humidity, and obnoxious interns and tourists during hte summer.

Posted by Elliot Reed | September 3, 2007 11:12 AM

I'm surprised no one's seen fit to respond to Chris Ford again.

Chris, if your point was that black soldiers were largely not allowed to serve in combat in World War II, in spite of their protests that they wanted to, fine. What this proves I can't imagine, but point accepted.

As for you being called "racist," I generally refrain from using such an incendiary term myself. Having reread your email a couple of times, though, including your calling the Tuskegee airmen "the media's favorite World War II vets" and making the point every way you can (New Orleans and DC have lost population, DC became 5/8th 'black slums' by the 60s, various cities with high black populations have high murder rates) that blacks are apparently a blight on American cities...yes, I'm left with the sense that you're a big time racist. I think it may be the Tuskeegee airmen comment that strikes me most, as it hints that your resentment of African-Americans is such that it bothers you to see black people praised.

And if that is the way you feel, why get so prickly about being called "racist"? Just accept that that's who you are at this point in your life, and that there will be plenty of people who get "self-righteous" in response -- thank goodness. I hope that someday you feel differently.

Posted by Brandon Claycomb | September 3, 2007 11:40 AM

very nice selection of steak restaurants

It is the very definition of "parochial" when someone compliments the local cuisine by saying it offers a nice selection of steak restaurants.

Posted by Tyro | September 3, 2007 12:05 PM

Tyro,

I know I'm sounding like a hopeless booster for the adopted hometown, but the array of good, relatively cheap food of almost every stripe is one of the great things about living here. Political refugees of every stripe have set up shop here in abundance, hence we have a plethora of Vietnamese, Ethiopian, Salvadoran, Afghan and other cuisines available. There are at most a handful of cities in the US who can compete with the array of food avialable here.

There are also quite a few exciting, more expensive fusion restaurants of note, that are as far removed from the high dollar steak houses as can be.

Posted by Klein's tiny left nut | September 3, 2007 12:12 PM

Tyro - indeed. But after years in San Francisco (and the food here is way, way better than in D.C.), I am getting sick of avant-garde fusion places. A decent steak is about the only thing I haven't been able to find here.

Posted by Elliot Reed | September 3, 2007 12:29 PM

"I don't think you have ever spent much time around DC."

Lived at Ft. McNair and Falls Church growing up. Thought about law practice in DC in about 1985. Ended up in LA. May go back to DC for a few years. DC is fine in limited doses, but maybe not for all one's career.

"The percentage of foreign born people in the metropolitan area is staggering. There are huge numbers of people from, among other places, Vietnam, Iran, Ethiopia, South Asia, Africa, Thailand, China, and on and on."

True, but remember the Kennedy Center test. Look out over the audience and count the non-yuppies. Look at who can be hired to federal jobs in DC - most high level (Kennedy Center audience) jobs are for the US citizen only. Not a great idea in my view. If we had allowed open immigration of Japanese in 1950-2007, I suspect we would have a much more robust domestic car industry than we now have. When we have top grads from places like Stanford, Duke, Emory, etc., we should give them career-duration green cards with diplomas, and let them compete freely for the Kennedy Center-level jobs in DC and elsewhere. What could be more disconcerting, from a competitive perspective, to the EU or China or Japan? Does that mean we end up with DC agencies that look as multi-cultural and multi-national as ExxonMobil - yes, probably so, but that seems like a necessary feature not a bug.

"In the legal field here there is considerable expertise in patent law" (Who is inventing in DC? Trial of patent cases is all over. Appeals, yes, in DC.)

"all manner of administrative and regulatory practice" (Yes, like the SEC alums I gave as an example.)

"Supreme Court and high level appellate practice" (Supreme Court and DC Circuit - probably not especially experts in 4th or 9th or 2d cases.)

"labor and employee benefits law" (Big class actions - WalMart - are outside DC. Not particular experts in trials of sex discrimination, wage and hour cases, etc. Yes experts in Department of Labor matters - like SEC alums.)

"constitutional law including civil liberties issues, and criminal law." (Not particularly expert in trials or appeals, though yes in USSCT cases, which most aren't.)

"There is also a consderable amount of expertise in health care -- both policy and practical -- due to the presence of NIH and the government, although the only true first class hospital in the area is Johns Hopkins in Baltimore." (Yes, the DC bar has the regulatory specialists - NIH and FDC alums, etc., and Johns Hopkins is great (but not a DC institution)).

"If I had to pick on a problem with the sense of expertise here is that it tends to be circumscribed by a real conventional wisdom problem -- it is a hard place for people to think outside of the box much because thinking is so hemmed in by political "realities.""

(Quite true. Name me one head of an admin. agency , or person at the GS-16 level or above who is not a US citizen. Most have not lived out of the US for more than 3 years or so on a military base, which barely counts. Compare that to the ExxonMobil staffing at its (small) headquarters in Fairfax. A multi-national approach to personnel matters in DC would be stabilizing and strengthening - Microsoft, Google and the like do it with HB-1 visas and the US as an employer can and should generally follow suit.

"As a result there tends to be a rather narrow echo chamber at times."

(My point exactly - it was a bit scary/boring to look out in the early 80's at flocks of yups that were pretty much just like me - maybe smarter, if anything - and contemplate practicing law with/against them for 30-40 uninterrupted years in one hot and muggy 10 mile by 10 mile square.)

Posted by cfw | September 3, 2007 12:57 PM

cfw,

The difference between the area now and in 1985 are staggering. I've lived here since 1982 and am still stunned by the development and changes that have occurred.

The Northern Virginia suburbs are less than 70% white -- Montgomery County and Fairfax County are both more than 10% asian and hispanic now.

The growth of high tech industries in both Northern Virginia and Montgomery County have substantially chenged the local economy.

As for law practice, many of the firms are national in scope because of the fact that they represent parent organizations of national or international entities. So lawyers at my small firm have appeared in every federal court of appeals in America. I am personally undefeated in the 4th Circuit (2 for 2), no mean feat for a union side/employee plaintiffs lawyer.

Bottom line is I think your impressions of the area are well out of date.

Posted by Klein's tiny left nut | September 3, 2007 1:49 PM

ktln

I knew that you would not give me a zip code that could be checked for demographic data. Silver spring is filled with low skilled immigrants who work in the service industry and retail. Silver spring and Wheaton is were the Somaian parking lot attendents live. The HVAC, Elevator Repair, pipe fitters who I have to deal with every day drive in from Baltimore County, Winchester, WV, and Hagerstown. There is no place for white tradesmen in the DC area any more. I would love for you to give me the neighborhhod in PG county where all of those tradesmen live. I doubt that it really exist because all of the middle class blacks living in PG county are civil servants.

Posted by superdestroyer | September 3, 2007 2:27 PM

Superdestroyer,

Strangely enough I don't keep the zip code data of my client's membership list. My firm, however, represents the local area elevator constructors, HVAC guys (steamfitters), plumbers, bricklayers, carpenters, tile setters, stone masons, and iron workers, among others, and their fringe benefit funds, so I suspect I'm slightly more in tune with the demographics than you. All of the local trades, by the way, maintain their offices in PG County, except possibly the mason tenders who were in DC.

Posted by Klein's tiny left nut | September 3, 2007 2:45 PM

Matt,

You don't like Boston and you don't like DC. Where do you think you'd be happier living? I'm a big fan of NYC, but it is expensive and laden with hastles too. San Francisco is beautiful, but again is ungodly expensive and not political in a way I think that you would necessarily like. Philly has its charms -- it's still cheap enough to have both a kind of bohemian and working class community that are hard to sustain in the more expensive cities, but it is hardly a flawless urban paradise. I can't speak to LA but I supect drving freeways isn't your thing. The City of the Big Shoulders? I don't peg you for a middle coast man, but I may be wrong.

So where would be better for young politico/policy man?

Posted by Klein's tiny left nut | September 3, 2007 2:51 PM

I found a list of unions in Maryland. http://www.xpdnc.com/links/lousmd.html

I some how cannot find those trades unions in Prince Georges County. I found plenty of government employees unions though.

Which steamfitter union should I be looking for while I am calling West Virginia to have my Security system installer come in or calling Baltimore County to have the carpenters come in to the Georgetown area?

Posted by superdestroyer | September 3, 2007 3:50 PM

I spent my first 20 years living in NYC, then moved to DC in the late '80s and have been here since for a reason. DC is a beautiful town with green streets, tons of parks

In this respect, DC absolutely excels. I think the city has more green space than any other in North America.

Posted by sglover | September 3, 2007 4:46 PM

Superdestroyer, you're so far off base that I would say that you obviously have never set foot in Montgomery County... or else you grew up in Potomac and were afraid set foot east of I-270.

I live near Silver Spring and spend a great deal of time there. Silver Spring is easily the most culturally and economically diverse locale in which I've ever set foot. There are wealthy families in large pre-war houses, hipsters in condos by the metro station, middle class families of all races, and immigrants from all over the world.

If you want zip codes, try 20910 (downtown SS), 20904 (Far North), 20902 (Wheaton), and 20866 (Burtonsville, where I live). Knock yourself out.

Posted by LaFollette Progressive | September 3, 2007 5:51 PM

"I some how cannot find those trades unions in Prince Georges County. I found plenty of government employees unions though."

Did you click your own link? You are aware that Camp Springs, Greenbelt, Lanham, Largo, Laurel, Suitland, and Upper Marlboro are all in Prince Georges County, yes?

Posted by LaFollette Progressive | September 3, 2007 6:24 PM

If you look city-date.com for 20910, you find a neighborhood of immigrants who rent instead of own and earn less than the average for Maryalnd and thus much less than the rest of Montgomery County. If you look at 20904 (colesville) you find more blacks and immigrants and fewer whites. Also just as many renters who cannot afford the real estate but make less than the Maryland average. Wheaton is even poorer than downtown Silver Spring but at least they own their world war II style ramblers.

If you look at /www.bestplaces.net/crime, the crime rates are at or above average.

If you look at the four down county high schools, they underperform versus the rest of Montgomery County. They are the type of schools where the white and asian kids either get into the AP programs or get out of there.

Posted by superdestroyer | September 3, 2007 6:37 PM

"Bottom line is I think your impressions of the area are well out of date."

Could be, though I have visited there and have a sister in DC law work and a brother in Fairfax oil work. I have lots of respect for the DC lawyers generally, and have looked into bar membership on occasion. As I recall, the process for getting bar membership is pretty routine (no bar exam, if licensed in another state). My sense is the affairs of state could be handled 100% better if there was more willingness to recruit and advance folks who are not citizens (as was done with huge success for centuries by Rome). I agree that DC has been built up over the years - lots of grand new structures. "My tax dollars at work helping those near the flagpole disproportionately" is the thought that goes through my mind when I see all that.

Those in DC who live off the federal government's regulations and purchasing, directly or indirectly, must wonder at times if they are driving business out of the US to the EU or Asia. I suppose they point to the "other guy" living off the government's regulations and purchasing as maybe unneeded and avoid too critical a look at their own "bread and butter."

Posted by cfw | September 3, 2007 6:53 PM

As I recall, the process for getting bar membership is pretty routine (no bar exam, if licensed in another state).

There's a minimum score on the 133 on the multistate necessary to waive in, but then it's just the character/fitness application. Took them about 8 months to process mine.

Posted by SoCalJustice | September 3, 2007 7:11 PM

Superdestroyer,

You can't really be this mendacious. Try going to the home page for the Washington Building and Construction Trades Council (another client of ours). You will see that vitrually every major trade is located in PG County. Among our clients, this includes:

IBEW Local 26 in Lanham, MD
Steamfitters Local 602 in Capitol Heights, MD
Plumbers Local 5, Camp Springs, MD
Bricklayers Local 1, Camp Springs, MD
Elevator Constructors Local 10, Lanham, MD
Iron Workers Local 5, Upper Marlboro, MD

The Asbestos Workers, Painters, and Sheet Metal Workers are also in PG County. A couple of trades still have offices in DC itself.

You are just completely wrong. I also don't understand your point about areas being hispanic or black or that their incomes are lower than some parts of Montgomery County. There are many blacks and hispanics in the building trades and a working class area by definition is not going to have income levels like Bethesda or Potomac.

And yes, I lived in Silver Spring, Hyattsville, and Takoma Park before becoming a lawyer.

Posted by klein's tiny left nut | September 3, 2007 8:29 PM

The problem with Washington being the national capital is that the ONLY business of conducted in the city is the US government. That tends to encourage an insular attitude, and may encourage corruption. It also seems to encourage a disconnect between the federal government leaders and bureaucrats and the people they supposidly serve. The experience of artificailly created capitals in other countries -for example St. Petersburg, Ottawa, Canberra, and Brasilia, seems to bear out the idea that they are conducive to insurality, though corruption at least is only a big problem in Brasilia and is no worse than when Brazil's capital was Rio.

However, the most logical alternative to Washington as the capital is New York, the country's largest city. And of course most Americans hate New York more than they hate Washington. Though there is a strong case to be made the capital should be St. Louis, which is the closest city to the popuation center.

This issue is much more serious in the larger states, excluding Texas. Sacramento, Tallahassee, Albany, and Springfield are all way off the population centers and main revenue generators of their respective staes, and in fact are in an area really culturally distinct from the areas where a majority of the people in the state live. In the worst case, you have very detailed laws governing behavior in New York City being issued from a city where most people hate the place. I think this is more of a problem, and more fixable, than with whatever matters with Washington.

Posted by Ed | September 3, 2007 10:27 PM

If you look city-date.com for 20910, you find a neighborhood of immigrants who rent instead of own and earn less than the average for Maryalnd and thus much less than the rest of Montgomery County. If you look at 20904 (colesville) you find more blacks and immigrants and fewer whites. Also just as many renters who cannot afford the real estate but make less than the Maryland average. Wheaton is even poorer than downtown Silver Spring but at least they own their world war II style ramblers.

20910, where I just moved from, is fast becoming one of the more affluent areas in the county -- itself one of the most affluent in the nation. Thanks to the downtown redevelopment, streets that used to be empty after the office workers left have become flooded with people. Lower Montgomery County is now flooded with $300k+ condos. Even if they get converted into apartments, they will likely not be affordable to service sector workers and immigrants. New development aside, 20910 is mainly solid middle class, suburban residential. Jack Abramoff lived in this zip code, and by all accounts he was doing rather well.

Your description of Silver Spring sounds like it's based on ten year old data.

Posted by sglover | September 4, 2007 2:04 AM

Ed,

The idea that the only business being conducted in the Metro DC area is government related is silly. Yes, the government is a major economic driver in the area, but the economy here is huge and diversified.

Like all lawyers, I interact with the government to some degree -- however, my day to day work i8s almost exclusively in the private sector. This is true of a lot of people here. Again, the stereotypes of yesteryear seem to linger on.

Posted by Klein's tiny left nut | September 4, 2007 7:31 AM

I don't know why I'm bothering, but it's worth pointing out just how dishonest Superdestroyer is being.

"If you look city-date.com for 20910, you find a neighborhood of immigrants who rent instead of own and earn less than the average for Maryland and thus much less than the rest of Montgomery County."

Well, city-date.com appears to be a Christian dating site. But when I went to "city-data.com" I discovered the following facts about zip code 20910.

The median household income is slightly lower than the state average, but the average individual income is higher-- there are substantially more single people living alone. The percentage of residents with income below the poverty line is below the state average. The home ownership rate is low (36%) but hardly non-existent, and this partially reflects the large number of 20-something singles who live in the area. The foreign-born population is 29.2%. Non-white Hispanics are the largest demographic group.

As I said, it is an extremely culturally and economically diverse area. Housing price inflation is a big problem here, as it is throughout the northeast. But Silver Spring is hardly the poor immigrant neighborhood that it is being made out to be.

If you look at the four down county high schools, they underperform versus the rest of Montgomery County. They are the type of schools where the white and asian kids either get into the AP programs or get out of there.

But only one of those schools, Wheaton, underperforms compared to the state average. Considering that the county is one of the 5-10 top performing public systems in the country, you're judging them against a very high bar. Montgomery Blair High School, which is majority Black and Hispanic, has over 60% of its students enrolled in AP programs and has higher test scores than many of the up-county schools, including Rockville, which is majority white and Asian.

Silver Spring is a local success story right now, and I get a bit angry when race-obsessed snobs start tearing it down because it doesn't look like Potomac.

Posted by LaFollette Progressive | September 4, 2007 10:26 AM

I come from out west and still believe to some degree that everything east of the continental divide is dead weight, so I am somewhat biased. But for the last three years I have lived in DC, and it's not as bad as I feared it would be. Here is my scorecard.

Negatives--
1. The weather. Jesus Christ. There's no way around it; the weather here sucks.

2. The prices. Rent is laughably high (this from someone who used to live in the SF bay area); even renting an apartment without roommates in a non-dangerous part of town is too expensive for most people starting out. Things are somewhat affordable in some suburbs; the only problem with that is that you are in the suburbs.

3. DC is the most segregated town I've ever seen. Whites west of Rock Creek Park, blacks east of the park, and never the twain shall meet. The only black people I see west of the park are, with VERY few exceptions, going to school or working in a store or restaurant, and they are headed back east at the end of the day. It's amazing how, in a town with a black majority, entire neighborhoods can look like North Dakota. Granted this is the way of things to some degree, but the level of segregation and lack of social mixing is much worse than anything out west. Something is seriously wrong here.

4. The city government is so badly run that I would never raise a family here, simply because I'm a huge believer in public schools and the schools here are pretty terrible.

5. Yuppie tyranny. Probably because there's so little blue-collar work here, people are either desparately poor or else really rich professionals with agressively upscale tastes. There are no hippies, no artists, and maybe five punks in the entire city. (Some call themselves hippies because they shop at Whole Foods, but anyone who can afford that is a yuppie first and hippie a distant second. Never trust a Whole Foods hippie.) I've never been anywhere, even Seattle during the tech boom, where I saw so many BMWs and Lexuses (Lexii?), and you would think walking around that this is a Louis Vuitton company town. Before I moved here I heard that Georgetown is hip, and I suppose it is, if you are a young pharmaceutical industry lobbyist making $300K a year. There are more interior design and high-end clothing stores than you can shake a stick at, but not an indie record store or college radio station in sight.

6. The fact that you can't go hiking/camping anywhere in the region without getting assaulted by ticks, and the ticks here are packing Lyme disease.

7. Being forced to watch the goddamn Redskins on TV when there is no good reason why anyone would want to watch them.

Positives--
1. White/black segregation aside, there is incredible diversity in some places. In Columbia Heights, and out in the suburbs where it's affordable, Ethiopians, Salvadorans, Koreans, etc. all bring the best of their home countries.

2. My previous anti-suburb crack aside, the burbs aren't that bad here. Sure you can live in some gated, paranoid cul-de-sac hell of your own making if you so choose, but south Arlington, Falls Church, and much of Montgomery and PG counties are actually quite vital, as long as you can make your peace with strip malls.

3. The Metro, although they better not go through with their dumbass plan to stop late service on Friday and Saturday nights.

4. Free museums and good parks.

5. Gilbert Arenas.

6. The Post seems to be on a roll lately with lots of angling-for-Pulitzer type series that are very well done, like the one about Dick Cheney or the one about the DC school district.

7. Some legitimately good venues and watering holes (9:30, DC9, Black Cat, H2O if you've got money).

I don't know if the positives outweigh the negatives. The place still doesn't feel like home after three years, and if a job opened up out west (or in NYC, Philly, or Chicago) I'd leave here tomorrow. Matt's right when he says Washington "kind of sucks," but only kind of, and there are some very good things about it.

Posted by Spokeytown | September 4, 2007 1:19 PM

Spokeytown,

All of your flaws are pretty much spot on, but like so much in life it is a relative experience. The weather, despite the oppressive summers, seems paradisical to me after growing up in Boston. I'll take 95 over 15 any day. City government has actually improved markedly from the nadir of the Marion Barry days. Certain services, trash pickup, street repair, onlike motor vehicle registration, and the DMV are light years better than they used to be (damining by faint praise I know).

Georgetown has never been hip. At least in the last 25 years. The segregation is pretty stunning. After living on Capitol Hill, U Street and Adams Morgan, I went west of the Park about 9 years ago. It would be hard to imagine a whiter neighborhood anywhere.

I think it would be very hard to start out here now without money. Once you could find cheaper rents if you were willing to slightly risk life and limb. That seems to be a thing of the past.

Just stay away from the Post's editorial page, which has become execrable.

Posted by Klein's Tiny Left Nut | September 4, 2007 2:02 PM

Everyone appears to be just talking out of their asses here, so maybe it's not even worth saying this, but "moving" or "dispersing" the federal government is a ridiculously huge and unthinkably expensive proposition. I think you'd need to come up with some better justification than "it might be cool" or "it would make government less insular."

Posted by Jake H. | September 4, 2007 3:15 PM

I admit that my previous living experiences (I've lived for sustained periods in several European and Asian countries, as well as in cities throughout the Northeast, Seattle and San Francisco--never in the Midwest or South) are not necessarily representative and strongly prone to a somewhat bohemian bias, although I do have a pretty strong base for comparison. That said, I share many of Spokey and Left Nut's observations, with the added caveat that one should beware when listening to locals describe their city. DC circa '87 versus DC '07 is an interesting comparison, but not a particularly relevant one when discussing national (not temporal) alternatives.

Also, although the segregation issue has been mentioned several times I still feel the need to point out just how appalingly corrosive race relations are here. It's something of an eye opener for one who considers himself a Northwesterner to see the almost caricaturish behavior engages in by the scions of Virginia, and appaling to see the almost one-for-one correlation between color and socioeconomic status (I consider myself fairly cynical as it is, but living here I've often had to re-visit the question, Is this really America in 2005...2006...2007?

P.S. Two races/cultures absolutely dominating regional demographics, even if in reverse proportion to the rest of the country, is not diversity (as a corrolary, I would adopt as my higher test here the Kennedy Center face example as a measure of who actually thrives, whatever the demographic numbers).

If only substantive policy work was possible (in the areas which I'm interested in)...well, just about anywhere along both coasts.

Posted by VasyaDC | September 4, 2007 3:55 PM

Also, now having actually read the article that is the subject of the link, the comment about well-informed people on a given subject coming from someone who acknowledges no interest in national politics is quite suspect. For people who are actually interested in national politics and policy, DC is quite a disappointment. There are far fewer knowledgeable people than one would suspect should be here, and among those that are knowledgeable, the appearance of knowledge seems a function largely of presentation rather than substance.

On a purely anecdotal level, outside of my workplace I seem to have far fewer conversation about political issues (qua issues, rather than rumor/entertainment) here than in some of the other major cities I've lived in. Oh sure, there's lots of joking about the unending political discourse here, but I'm surprized at 1) the amount of people who don't have anything to do with politics (and don't want to); 2) the people who work at the federal level on substantive issues who see those issues on a strictly parochial bureaucratic level, not as issues of genuine national political concern; 3) highly-specialized, very intelligent wonks who know their particular issue area extremely well and pretty much nothing else; 4) political knowledge aside, Is it just me, or does there seem to be an extremely high ratio of individuals unqualified (in a way that goes beyond mere credentials) to be Subway sandwitch masters installed in crucial spots all over the federal bureauacracy (both political appointees, and career civil servants)? (One can't help but to wonder whether these guys, for the most part, are really the best candidates that could be produced after what can be a year-long and thousand-candidate-plus vetting process?)

Posted by VasyaDC | September 4, 2007 5:06 PM

Jake H:

"Everyone appears to be just talking out of their asses here, so maybe it's not even worth saying this, but "moving" or "dispersing" the federal government is a ridiculously huge and unthinkably expensive proposition."

Probably not too expensive if done gradually.

Lots of government functions have been moved out of DC, and more are being moved out.

The trick is to hire folks for, say, the DOD Contract Management Agency with offices to be in, say, Los Alamos or Manassas or Philadelphia or Pittsburgh.

We also need some mechanism for moving employees every 7 years or so to new locations, to keep them fresh and federal in mindset.

The Fed Government is pennywise and pound foolish in not paying "PCS" (moving expenses) in most of its hiring. Insularity is increased needlessly by saying no to PCS expense. One could draw the line at say $10,000 for a PCS (move), but zero dollars is too low.

A policy calling for an average of 25% travel per year, over a career, would make sense. Get government folks out on the planes and trains rubbing shoulders with their true paymasters. Give employees some slack in the travel area when they are raising kids, but do not let them hole up in bunkers for entire careers. (Same goes for Congress and Judiciary.)

Posted by cfw | September 5, 2007 3:32 PM