The End of Straight Culture

The Redskins are on Monday Night Football tomorrow night, so some friends and I are planning on going to a bar to hang out and watch the game. The logical candidate would seem to be Nellie's, a newish sports bar that just opened up this summer. Nellie's is, however, not just a sports bar, but a gay sports bar.

Now, all else being equal, I guess my inclination would be to avoid the local gay sports bar and head for the local conventional sports bar, except . . . Nellie's is the only sports bar in the neighborhood. So what I'm wondering is what does one do under the circumstances to keep the gay sports bar gay? After all, breeders like sports, too, and it (a) sounds like a great place to watch a game and (b) has a"somewhat remote location from the vortex of DC's urban gay culture" so isn't going to just turn into a heterosexual sports bar?

Comments

All sports bars seem pretty gay to me...

Posted by Petey | September 16, 2007 9:37 PM

No. You underestimate the fear many men have of being in a gay bar-- or maybe more accurately, being seen in a gay bar.

Posted by Freddie | September 16, 2007 9:37 PM

Are you going to watch sports or pick up women? If not the latter, go and enjoy what is probably the most tasteful sports bar in DC.

Posted by GiantDuck | September 16, 2007 9:37 PM

It's really a question of how many Republicans you can handle watching the game with. If you don't mind being surounded by GOP lawmakers, their staff members and leaders of the religious right, go to Nellie's.

Posted by scout | September 16, 2007 9:42 PM

Once you say you're an establishment that's friendly to alternative lifestyles, and once people who practice such lifestyles start showing up, you don't have to do much. At that point, the onus is on heterosexuals who might visit to just accept that if they're hit on by somebody of their gender that it's a compliment and that they're expected to be polite about it.

Really, once you know as hetero that you're not expected to be homosexual and that all they want is for you not to freak out and ruin the evening if somebody of your gender takes an interest, there's no reason not to go.

If it were a fundamentalist Christian bar, I'd advise you not to go. Because the patrons would try to convert you. At a gay bar? Not so much.

Posted by Mike M. | September 16, 2007 9:43 PM

"You underestimate the fear many men have of being in a gay bar-- or maybe more accurately, being seen in a gay bar."

Funny. I have a fear of being in a sports bar, as well as a fear of being seen in a sports bar.

Posted by Petey | September 16, 2007 9:44 PM

Are you going to watch sports or pick up women? If not the latter, go and enjoy what is probably the most tasteful sports bar in DC.

I want to watch sports and I fully intend to go.

Posted by Matthew Yglesias | September 16, 2007 9:46 PM

The thing with Nellie's is its good for watching sports if you're there to eat too, but the rest of the rooms have like one or two tvs and are more clubby than sportsbar-ry. If you get in to their dining room which has nice TVs, you should be set.

I've heard that their sliders are pretty good.

But the other problem is that the wait staff is all gay men, so I've noticed that they tend to favor the non-gay clientele. But that could've just been my experience. But you may be there to watch the game, and not to eat/drink.

That said, the coolest thing going on in DC tomorrow night is Do Make Say Think at the Black Cat - something that should be on the top of the list for any fans of canadian rock.

Posted by zoidberg | September 16, 2007 9:46 PM

Once you say you're an establishment that's friendly to alternative lifestyles, and once people who practice such lifestyles start showing up, you don't have to do much.

Ordinarily, sure. If a neighborhood has a gay sports bar and a non-gay sports bar, the straight guys are overwhelmingly going to go to the non-gay option. But since this is the only sports bar in the neighborhood, and since gays are a minority in the neighborhood, I feel like the place is going to wind up overrun with straight dudes in the long run.

Posted by Matthew Yglesias | September 16, 2007 9:51 PM

I want to watch sports and I fully intend to go.

How's the food? Generally I rank sports bars based on the quality of their wings and on their drink specials. But I have a car.

Posted by Just Karl | September 16, 2007 9:53 PM

Never got the appeal of a sports bar. I only go to them when I am away from home and can't catch my local team play otherwise. I'd rather watch the game on my giant TV at home without all the distractions and poseurs.

Posted by Fred | September 16, 2007 9:59 PM

My friends and I had the same idea here in Denver. The absolute best bar (in terms of the structure ~ it is built in the fashion of the French Quarter in New Orleans, and so has 2 floors and two decks (lower and upper level). It is called Jr's Bar and Grill by the way for those reading this in Denver. It is packed for the most part most nights, and this is due in part to the lack of options for gays.

But what if 100 straight guys and girls invaded the place? And consistently did that enough so that as a gay, you were no longer felt it provided the same benefits?

Could we essentially turn it into a straight sports bar? Would gays get sick of such a high ratio of non-gays that they would go elsewhere?

Posted by Brad | September 16, 2007 10:04 PM

There are a large percentage of single males who would never even consider going to a gay bar (sports or not sports), and another significant percentage who would only entertain the idea in the company of women insisting to dance (and it's the women's idea and the guy(s) "go along with it").

In a status and image conscious place like Washington DC, perhaps we might even increase the odds against straight guys making a habit of frequenting the place (you might be "seen there" and have to explain it), though on the flip side you also have the "cosmopolitan factor" to help balance things out (i.e. single men are far more likely to entertain the idea of frequenting a gay bar, whether for dancing or sports reasons, in urban settings).

To answer the question, there's no way in hell the gay sports bar will be overrun by straight guys, especially since there will be almost no "the girls wanted to go" justification.

A good gay dance club will always be the more likely place to see straight men dropping in occasionally, and mainly because a lot of straight and/or bisexual women drag their male friends there.

Posted by Jimm | September 16, 2007 10:08 PM

I don't understand why you're pretending that The Gay isn't contagious.

Posted by ogged | September 16, 2007 10:08 PM

All that said, and as a straight guy, if there's a game I have to see then I would not hesitate to toss down some drinks at my local gay sports bar, but probably not for a Monday Night Football game I can see at home (it would have to be a game I can't get at home and they have it on satellite at the sports bar, and noone else does in the convenient geographic area).

Posted by Jimm | September 16, 2007 10:11 PM

Sports bars are sports bars, gay or not. Except maybe there are a few more guys checking the other guys out:)

If some guy hits on you, you can always say no. lol.

Posted by AJ | September 16, 2007 10:12 PM

I suspect that a fair number of straight men would be reluctant even to set foot in a bar called Nellie's. In any case, though I can't speak for DC, gay sports bars generally are so thin on the ground, and serve such a well defined niche, that they tend to attract men (and women) from a wide geographical area and you could very well run into guys from places like Vienna who'll outnumber the neighborhood straights.

Posted by Steve | September 16, 2007 10:15 PM

but probably not for a Monday Night Football game I can see at home

But I've just spent all day Sunday watching football at home -- it's nice to go out.

Posted by Matthew Yglesias | September 16, 2007 10:17 PM

I should note that the likelihood of ever having that many gay sports bars are pretty slim. That's not really the general gay orientation to support sports bars (exclusively). I have lots of gay friends and actually have a client site with a vast majority of gay employees, and the subject of sports rarely, rarely, rarely arises. In fact, the one guy who does love sports at my client site loves stopping by my office because he can actually talk sports with someone.

That said, I have regularly frequented a sports bar where it seemed the straight/gay balance was pretty even, mainly because it was a mixed neighborhood (on the edge of Hillcrest in San Diego), and it was the World Cup which apparently everyone loves. In those cases, it didn't really matter what you were...it was all about the games and good times.

Posted by Jimm | September 16, 2007 10:18 PM

But I've just spent all day Sunday watching football at home -- it's nice to go out.

I probably should have mentioned that I was speaking for myself, in terms of just wandering out individually.

In the company of friends, straight or gay, I would definitely head down to your local sports bar, and I certainly wouldn't be the one making an issue about it being a gay sports bar (though I suspect a number of my straight friends would not even consider it).

Posted by Jimm | September 16, 2007 10:21 PM

As long as your friends are, like you, honorary members of the gay community, we won't mind one bit. We might even bring our straight girlfriends to make you feel more at home. As long as gays are welcome and homophobia isn't tolerated it won't become a "straight bar" but instead mixed, which would be the best possible outcome for your neighborhood.

Posted by Kuks | September 16, 2007 10:23 PM

"But I've just spent all day Sunday watching football at home -- it's nice to go out."

Watching sports in normal bars can be fun. Watching sports in sports bars - not so much.

Posted by Petey | September 16, 2007 10:24 PM

Yeah, but what about the bathrooms? Won't there be all kinds of revolting toe-tapping and finger-swiping action going on in there?

Posted by brooksfoe | September 16, 2007 10:25 PM

Isn't a nellie another term for flamer? Is the name intended to be ironic for a sports bar?

Posted by Just Karl | September 16, 2007 10:28 PM

Watching sports in normal bars can be fun. Watching sports in sports bars - not so much.

Depends which sports bar you're talking about...some of them are awesome and the perfect place to take in a game. Just in the coastal Orange County area in California (Newport Beach, Huntington Beach), there are some awesome sports bars that double as the best night spots too (depending on your age, motivation and orientation, of course).

Of course, we have a lot of neighborhood bars out there, especially in the most highly trafficked areas, that buy several plasmas and order the DirectTV sports packages, so the options are nearly endless (unless you're looking for a more obscure college game, then you have to rely on the truly legit sports bars).

Posted by Jimm | September 16, 2007 10:29 PM

As a gay guy who likes sports and the occasional gay bar, but has never been to Nellie's, I think it's fine for a neighborhood straight guy to go to a gay sports bar. It can be annoying to hit on someone in a gay bar only to find out that they're straight, but this is less likely during a Redskins game. So, from a gay perspective, as long as you don't bring a dozen of your hottest straight male friends, there's no problem. Now, show up at 'shirtless men drink free' night at the green lantern and there might be trouble...

Posted by mikem | September 16, 2007 10:32 PM

Jesus H, I thought you were some kind of urban establishment quasi-hipster, Yglesias. You would actually prefer the atmosphere of a typical sports bar over that of a "gay" "sports" bar? You are losing cred fast. I bet Ahmedinejad would choose the gay bar...

Posted by Christopher M | September 16, 2007 10:36 PM

Like all of life, it depends.

If the clientele, gay and straight, is mostly stable hood folks, all will be well with whatever the balance is over time.

Gay men don't take well to being 'invaded' by hostile str8s however - with the emphasis on hostile. And the vast majority of gays don't even consider sex with strictly str8 men, but there's always the possibility of misunderstanding.

As the commenters above have said: the bar name and the label (gay, sports) will likely keep many str8 men from even considering the choice.

In the instant case, a evening with friends will likely be totally no different than any sports bar. Over time, dynamics will determine it is balanced or becomes single-orientation - but that single orientation will be gay if the owner wants that to be so.

My guess it that you won't be able to tell the gays from the straights - mental images of gays (by str8s) tend not to be even closely aligned with reality - even in a gay bar, sports or not.

Posted by JimPortlandOR | September 16, 2007 10:49 PM

can be annoying to hit on someone in a gay bar only to find out that they're straight

Until recently, I lived just a couple of blocks from a very good gay sports bar. In my experience, there's a lot more emphasis on cruising for sex than at a straight sports bar. Not really a problem for me - I am used to being cruised, having lived in Chelsea, NYC, for years - but I've found that you can't just ignore that it's a gay bar and simply watch the sports. Of course, YMMV.

Posted by Al | September 16, 2007 10:50 PM

Just to be clear, I wasn't "cruising for sex"- there is a difference, no? I'm willing to bet Matt will be able to sidle on up to the bar, grab a beer and catch the game without any hankie-codes or rainbow parties or morse-code bathroom tapping. In other words, he'll feel far less uncomfortable than a mid-20s straight girl in a regular sports bar full of horny frat guys and gin-soaked businessmen.

Posted by mikem | September 16, 2007 11:07 PM

My friends in Chicago and I used to go to the gay bars alot, and I find that, while there's no resentment from gay men to straight guys going to a gay bar, most of the straight women there hate it.

Posted by Freddie | September 16, 2007 11:34 PM

Man, put a guy in a 'sightings' column just once and he starts to think people are recognizing him everywhere.

Posted by neil | September 16, 2007 11:36 PM

The naivite of this thread is more than a little rediculous. It's not as if gay bars are one continuous pick-up orgy, and, sorry, Matt, but I wouldn't consider you especially on the "hot" side that you'll continuously be fending them off and need protection. Most likely you and your group will be drinking beers and talking amongst yourselves just as pretty much every other group there will be. Somebody friendly and looking to meet new people may say hello and try and engage you in converstation. Anything more? Please... this is DC.
As for Nellies being a real "sports bar" - I had some friends complaining that they went there last Sunday looking to watch the Redskins game and they were sorely disappointed. They emphasis was definitely more on the "gay" (mainly gay guys who could care less about sports nevermind people actually going to a bar to watch a football game) and much less on the "sports" - my friends had the definite impression that the bar personnel had no idea that the football season had actually even started and that there was a game on ("What? you want us to turn on the TV?")

So I wouldn't worry about turning a gay sports bar "hetero" (what are you going to do, bring in your girlfriends and have them do pole dances?). My guess is that if push comes to shove, it will remain a gay bar longer than it is a sports bar.

There is a real sports bar in the Convention Center down around 9th and N - about 5 blocks down from Nellies, that I assume is will be straight enough for you and your friends.

Posted by Ethel-to-Tilly | September 16, 2007 11:53 PM

I don't understand. Why does drinking, eating and watching football have to be a sexualized event?

Posted by Lurch | September 17, 2007 12:04 AM

It's not as if gay bars are one continuous pick-up orgy, and, sorry, Matt, but I wouldn't consider you especially on the "hot" side that you'll continuously be fending them off and need protection.

I feel like I keep getting misinterpreted her. I'm not afraid something terrible will happen to me if I go to a gay bar (I grew up in a neighborhood with tons of gay establishments -- I'm over it). I'm wondering how the bar in question will avoid being overrun with straight people.

Posted by Matthew Yglesias | September 17, 2007 12:08 AM

I think Ethel just answered that question about as good as anyone.

Posted by Jimm | September 17, 2007 12:10 AM

To get Mattie's back (sic), he doesn't sound squeamish about going to the place at all, and I didn't sense that from his post.

The place definitely doesn't sound like it's going to overrun by straights anytime in the near future however, unless they started running and marketing it as a real sports bar, including having bartenders who are aware of the games and have the satellite packages to make it happen.

Posted by Jimm | September 17, 2007 12:13 AM

I just don't understand why anyone wants to watch the Redskins. Joe Gibbs is a zombie. Daniel Snyder is a scumbag.

Posted by MoeLarryAndJesus | September 17, 2007 12:21 AM

Get a dish and your own copy of Sunday Ticket. Since there are no tall buildings in the district, you can almost certainly get one.

Posted by Nicholas Beaudrot | September 17, 2007 12:28 AM

So what I'm wondering is what does one do under the circumstances to keep the gay sports bar gay?

There's some things you could do, but I don't think you want to do them.

Posted by Neil the Ethical Werewolf | September 17, 2007 12:50 AM

Yeah - sorry Matt - it came out wrong - growing up in the Village and all of course you're gay friendly. I was more or less responding with the sentiment along the lines of JimPortlandOR ("My guess it that you won't be able to tell the gays from the straights - mental images of gays (by str8s) tend not to be even closely aligned with reality - even in a gay bar, sports or not.") in response to the tone of some of the posts on here.

Posted by Ethel-to-Tilly | September 17, 2007 1:01 AM

"So what I'm wondering is what does one do under the circumstances to keep the gay sports bar gay?"

Give all the gay folks at the sports bar pepper spray and encourage them to use it liberally on the straight folks.

Pepper spray solves all problems.

Posted by Petey | September 17, 2007 1:28 AM

I have a thought - some straight people may not go to the gay bar because they're not actually gay. Not because they are homophobic. Because they respect the fact that the owners are trying to create a place where gay people can get together and watch some sports and if I go, as a straight person, I'll be crashing their party. And some people might consider that a bit rude.

Posted by bill | September 17, 2007 2:29 AM

You may win pc points for your concern that the heterosexual lifestyle (and the dread heterosexual agenda) might taint Nellie's, but you blew them (the points) by equating "conventional" and "heterosexual". A conventional sports bar would normally serve drinks to people of all sexual orientation and maybe even a woman or two. A heterosexual bar would be a heterosexual singles bar, wouldn't it ?

Posted by Robert Waldmann | September 17, 2007 4:03 AM

speaking of the heterosexual life style, why isn't there a "17th street breeders cup" to round out sports events on the day of the 17th street drag race ?

Posted by Robert Waldmann | September 17, 2007 4:05 AM

Hey, Matt, let's meet there and see what develops, ok? There's always hope for you.

There's always Monday night football.

Posted by Curt North | September 17, 2007 7:43 AM

"I'm not afraid something terrible will happen to me if I go to a gay bar (I grew up in a neighborhood with tons of gay establishments -- I'm over it)."

Then, if "all else being equal", why would you avoid it?

"To get Mattie's back (sic), he doesn't sound squeamish about going to the place at all, and I didn't sense that from his post.", Double entendre, aside, ..., well, yeah, he actually does sound a bit squeamish about.

I'm not familiar with this bar (I don't live in D.C., though I love to visit), but it seems rather ludicrous to refer to a "real" sports bar where the staff is fully conversant on all sports matters. At the most recent "real" sports bar I went to, the nice, young, blond haired, large bosomed woman wearing the low riding jeans who brought my beer and hot wings didn't appear particularly interested in the "match" playing on the big screen TV.

Posted by Rihilism | September 17, 2007 8:41 AM

mental images of gays (by str8s) tend not to be even closely aligned with reality

Well, I hate to be controversial, but I don't think that's true.

Posted by Freddie | September 17, 2007 8:50 AM

A million years ago, when my wife and I were courting, we'd go to the local gay bar/disco to dance. Eventually, I knew, she'd have to repair to the ladies room, and I had to face the problem of how to handle the hit-upon question. So, one time after she's gone, sure enough, a guy sidles up to the table and sits down. I was very cool about it, but my rehearsed answer turned out to be moot since my approacher wanted heroin not sex. A story that is fabled in Davis family lore that I don't look gay. I look like a junkie.

In all the time that winter that we went dancing that was the only time a man approached me at the gay bar. My advice: if you're worried about it, if you can't look butch, look wan. (Are you wan? Yes, are you wan, too?)

Posted by Jeffrey Davis | September 17, 2007 9:05 AM

Isn't a nellie another term for flamer? Is the name intended to be ironic for a sports bar?

Yes. Yes.

Posted by Uncle Kvetch | September 17, 2007 9:48 AM

Whoa Nellies!

Posted by Keith Jackson | September 17, 2007 9:50 AM

Be thin and neat.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Posted by DrFrankLives | September 17, 2007 10:52 AM

it seems rather ludicrous to refer to a "real" sports bar where the staff is fully conversant on all sports matters

I didn't mean to suggest that...only that a real sports bar will have a reputation as such to uphold, so whether or not there are hot people who work there who care less about the game, there is staff on site who have been trained and know how to find a game that you want, as well as are aware of what packages they have.

I travel frequently, move frequently from job site to job site, and have sports bar down to a science as a matter of experience, so I know what I'm talking about, and there are sports bars that call themselves that and don't know jack and can't get you any game that is not on the basic cable package for all cable customers, and these establishments are not "real" sports bars.

Posted by Jimm | September 17, 2007 12:18 PM

To underscore that point, it's not that a real sports bar will have staff who all are into the game(s) and talking about them (though some of the best sports bars do hire these folks), but that the staff actually are aware that their business is sports (along with drinks, food, etc.), are aware that people will come in asking to watch games, know at least vaguely what channels/packages they have available, and so on.

Just buying a few big TV's doesn't warrant earning the moniker of "sports bar", though plenty do go ahead and appropriate themselves that moniker whether or not deserving, along with all their other marketing spiels (which is all good and proper but the experienced sports bar denizen will quickly determine the reality of the situation).

In most cases, you're just dealing with bars that have lots of TV's and a willingness to show network and cable televised sports on them, and these places definitely serve the purpose most of the time, but legit sports bars buy extra packages (which cost much more to a commercial establishment than to a private residence) and are able to show games that you can't find at home on the basic packages.

All that said, you see a lot more sports bars these days mainly because of competitive DirectTV marketing and pricing, so that even your neighborhood bar can likely afford to pay for NFL Sunday Ticket and elevate themselves to "sports bar" for the football season.

Posted by Jimm | September 17, 2007 12:27 PM

Of course, "competitive" DirectTV pricing when it refers to NFL Sunday Ticket was probably not the right choice of words...considering they have had an exclusive monopoly over that programming against cable and Dish TV since its origin (though I think you can still get the NFL Sunday Ticket with the larger satellite providers too).

Posted by Jimm | September 17, 2007 12:32 PM

Maybe if the Gay Men's Chorus hummed the Star Spangled Banner before the game it would be OK to watch the Redskins in a gay bar.

Posted by Downtown Dave | September 17, 2007 12:41 PM

Is being a "gay bar" an either/or thing? What if there's some neighborhood bar in a neighborhood that gradually gets more gays in it, and so the bar, like the neighborhood, gradually gets more gays in it, too. At what point does the bar become a gay bar? Does the ownership have to be gay?

Posted by Adam Villani | September 17, 2007 12:54 PM

"Is being a "gay bar" an either/or thing? What if there's some neighborhood bar in a neighborhood that gradually gets more gays in it, and so the bar, like the neighborhood, gradually gets more gays in it, too. At what point does the bar become a gay bar? Does the ownership have to be gay?"

To underscore that point, it's not that a real "gay" bar will have staff who all are into the "gay"(s) and talking about them "queers" (though some of the best "gay" bars do hire these folks), but that the staff actually are aware that their business is "queer" (along with drinks, food, etc.), are aware that people will come in asking to watch "gays", know at least vaguely what "gay porn" channels/packages they have available, and so on...

Just teasing, Jimm,...;)

Posted by Rihilism | September 17, 2007 4:52 PM

I can see that it may be difficult to make a bar less gay. You start with a scene in which the bartender lacks a shirt and here and there a patron keeps his hand on top of another patron's hand etc.

How many males estentatiously flirting with females would it take to counteract the initial effect?

By the way, what is a good "sport bar" behavior? Shouting loudly whenever the action is warranting it? jumping and high-fiving when your team scores, or when an opponent is grieviously injured?

Posted by piotr | September 17, 2007 5:21 PM

One tends to forget that for every ten men in a sports bar(ANY sports bar)...at least one of them is gay!

[No such thing as a "heterosexual sports bar"]....DUH.

Sports are sports...food is food....and people are people just watching games, eating, and drinking...and of course having a gay ole time!

Nellies is a sports bar. Period.

Posted by Blake | September 18, 2007 9:16 AM

I have visited Nellie's a few times now and tend to agree with the comments above, that it really isn't quite a true sports bar. It is the best bar in that bart of town, but the beer/food is too expensive for me to bring any of my straight buds (they would go just cause its me asking) and it didn't seem like that many folks were watching the game of the week on Sunday night (Chargers/Pats).

In my experience, most gay men just aren't that into sports and will look at you completely dumbfounded if you ask them a simple question. End the end, I've decided that if I want to hang around a lot of really hot guys I am not going to sleep with. . .I am going to stick to straight bars . . .the guys are much hotter and you can talk sports to your hearts content. My advice, don't cross the streams.

Posted by PDub | September 18, 2007 9:19 AM

Matt Y, did you go, how was it? Did you enjoy chicken fingers served from a metal tub with butterflies painted on it and eaten off grandmas discarded china? Was the game on? I know it was, I was there. There was not an empty seat in the dining area and nearly everyone was turned towards the TVs watching the game. Looked like any other sports bar to me! Maybe I will go sometime when a game is not on so I can get hit on.

Posted by VinV | September 19, 2007 12:15 PM