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The Relevance of Supply-Siders

05 Sep 2007 07:24 pm

One of the points that Jon Chait's book, The Big Con makes is that the central element of the Republican Party's tax policy -- lower taxes rates will lead to higher tax revenues -- is a discredited crackpot notion. Megan McArdle takes on the interesting task of denying that this is, in fact, an influential idea:

His primary exhibits for the nefarious influence of supply-side policy are: Larry Lindsay, Dick Cheney, Jack Kemp, Jude Wanniski, and George Gilder. Cheney I give you, but Larry Lindsay was drummed out of the administration in disgrace (for unrelated reasons) even before Bush's major tax cut, and Chait somehow neglects to mention the more conventional economists who have occupied the job since. Jack Kemp hasn't had access to serious power since I was snoring my way through Algebra I, and what power he did have was over HUD. Moreover, though I agree that Jude Wanniski and George Gilder are barking moonbats, they have, to put it kindly, limited influence on today's Republican party; which is hardly surprising given that Wanniski was kicked out of the party in disgrace before he died in 2005, and George Gilder has turned his attentions to that hugely influention Republican mouthpiece, the Gilder Technology report. This motley collection of names is hardly proof that the Supply Siders Have Taken Over the Building.

Chait's point, however, was that the very same ideas espoused by these crazy people continue to control the GOP policy agenda. To get around this point, Megan seems to elide the small fact that Dick Cheney is Vice President of the United States. One other believer who has some impact on public policy is a fellow by the name of George W. Bush:

You cut taxes and the tax revenues increase. See, some people are going to say, well, you cut taxes, you're going to have less revenue. No, that's not what happened.

The ranks of the supply-siders also include prominent syndicate columnist Robert Novak who also reminds us that Tony Snow is "an ardent supply-sider as a columnist and commentator." There's also these guys:

Likewise, the Washington Post reported that “on February 8, press secretary Ari Fleischer said the [new tax] plan would pay for itself.” In the same vein, Congress Daily reported on January 8 that House Majority Leader Tom Delay, referring to the “growth” package, “told reporters that the long-term revenues generated by tax relief would more than cover the price tag of the cuts.” Congress Daily also reported that Senator John Sununu (R- NH) stated “that the tax cuts would actually bring long-term deficits down.

And, of course, in addition to this insignificant crew of presidents and congressional leaders, there's people like Rudy Giuliani and John McCain. As Greg Mankiw put it "fealty to the most extreme supply-side views is de rigeur in some segments of the Republican party." Those segments just happen to include the party's entire national leadership.

Along with having all of the politicians endorse this view, these "segments" of the Republican Party have also created a parallel intellectual infrastructure, so that we have Heritage Foundation stuff endorsing this and AEI fellows writing articles called "Art Laffer, Righter than Ever" for National Review. And, of course, there's The Weekly Standard and The Wall Street Journal editorial page and Larry Kudlow's television show.

Now maybe Megan's point is that neither the leading conservative weekly magazine nor the leading conservative biweekly magazine nor the leading conservative opinion daily nor the country's leading conservative politicians nor the country's leading conservative think tanks actually believe what they're all saying about taxes. Probably at least some of them don't. I think Jon's basic point doesn't really hinge on the sincerity politicians may or may not have in espousing nutty views. The point is that the views are widely espoused, and a central part of the contemporary right's political agenda of upward wealth redistribution.

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Comments (66)

And let's not forget Steve Moore and the Club for Growth and their jeremiads in Republican primaries against any GOP who dares to suggest, however tangentially, that maybe the deficit is too big and maybe we can't pay for infrastructure like the bridge in Minneapolis with fairy dust and such.

McArdle loves her some Kudlow and Laffer, yet thinks Krugman is a crackpot? She should talked to Dr. Duncan Black. Or does she think he's a crack pot too. Oh, that's right!! She graduated from University of Chicago, where all those wing nut economists go. No wonder!!! That explains it all.

Um, haven't tax revenues increased significantly after tax rates were cut during Bush's first term? The tax cut may not have been the only reason for the increase in revenue, but it does demonstrate that it is possible to lower marginal tax rates and increase revenue.

As for the bridge in Minneapolis: Are federal tax cuts really why it collapsed? I doubt it. Highway spending is something Congress is usually overly generous with. If Minneapolis is anything like New York, the real competition for state and local resources isn't between tax cuts and infrastructure spending but between generous salaries and pensions for public employees and infrastructure spending. Consider the shoddy state of NYC's subways and other infrastructure with its humongous, well-paid work force with gold-plated retirement benefits. Bridges don't have the same political power that public employee unions do.

Really the interesting thing about this is the window into Megan's mental processes. Contrary to what many left of center people seem to think, IMO her arguments are always made in good faith; she isn't stupid, though clearly a step or two below the intelligence level of the leading lights of the blogging world; and, on some issues, at least, she strays from what one might call the secular center right, which is where I'd put her (she isn't REALLY a libertarian, though her impulses in that direction are more genuine than, e.g., the authoritarian law professor/apologist for war criminals from Tennessee).

And yet ... she comes up with stuff like this, real not seeing the forest for the trees kind of stuff, and/or she puts her head in the sand w/r/t her ideological fellow travelers, or makes unwarranted assumptions about the agenda of people to her left. Stuff that, honestly, is LAUGHABLE. And really it just doesn't fit in with other aspects of her blogging personality.

That said, she gets a LOT of unwarranted abuse from some lefties, and really takes it with good humor, so I can't help thinking I'd like her if I met her in real life. Honestly I can't say that about many people of her ideological stripe these days.

Given that many republicans simultaneously argue that the tax cuts will pay for themselves and produce more revenue AND AT THE SAME TIME that tax cuts are necessary to "starve the beast," depriving the government of revenue it would use for large programs, I have to say that I have no idea what they believe. In fact, I don't think it goes much further than, "tax cuts reduce the amount of money people pay to the government, and rich people will have a significant amount left over at the end of the month." Voters don't really need an ideological justification for tax cuts, though they may need a set of talking points in order to justify their emotional desires.

Harry: "haven't tax revenues increased significantly after tax rates were cut during Bush's first term?"

No, the opposite is true.

See charts below.
http://www.imf.org/external/Pubs/NFT/Op/227/images/figs4-5.jpg
http://www.marktaw.com/culture_and_media/TheNationalDebt.html

So, I have an idea: when Matt links to Megan, which I assume must be a contractual stipulation of employment at the Atlantic, just don't comment. Seriously, her posts aren't usually that interesting. There's the counter-intuitive for the sake of counter-intuitive; there's the Republican talking point gussied up as econospeak lite; there's the plain-old, garden-variety venal winger nonsense. And then, occasionally, there's something kinda interesting (though there was more of that before she left the Economist, I'm told). Given that Matt probably has to link -- at least occasionally -- to Megan no matter how trite or offensive her posts become, I wonder if avoiding comments might not be the way to go.

Why? Well, it's the market at work, of course. I don't usually try to cost people their jobs. But in this case she really doesn't seem to deserve her position. At least not based on the evidence I've seen. At least not yet. I assume the Atlantic tracks her traffic. And it goes without saying that people who either think she's im- or amoral should not visit her site. But I'm also guessing that someone looks at the comments when Matt or Andrew or others link to her. If the comments are few, if, in other words, she's not generating buzz, maybe she'll go away. And yes, that's a euphemism for get fired/relegated to the fact-checking department until her contract expires.

I'd like to clarify two things: First, I have the greatest respect for fact checkers. It's where a lot of wonderful journalists and writers get their start. And so I wouldn't really wish Megan on them. Termination surely is the appropriate response to her brand of weak tea. And second, I view this as a case study in the power of consumer-driven journalism. Which Megan should appreciate, right? I don't want to call her names. I don't want to question her integrity. I just think she sucks at her job. So maybe this way we can all be rid of her. There's benefits all around. The Atlantic, a truly great magazine with an important place in the history of American letters, won't have its good name sullied. And Matt's readers will have made the rational choice, which should provide Megan with grist for her mill. Everyone wins.

Maybe this seems obvious to some, but sometimess it's necessary to state the obvious. The Republican establishment is dominated by Laffer believers, it's a plain fact.

What's painful for those of us who care about the planet is that this phoniness is the virtual economic law of the land, while a genuine scientific curve with powerful implications, both economic and environmental--the Keeling Curve--is completely ignored.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeling_Curve

Yes Harry, absolutely correct

Revenues have exploded from Cap Gains and the highest payers (me for example)are paying an insanely high share of the fed inc tax (no, unlike Buffet, I have mostly earned income)

If "joejoe" would look at Treasury statistics or something besides the freakin IMF (Institutionalized Marxist Fellows)he MIGHT observe something resembling reality in the USA

- Top 10% of earners pay over 65% of the federal income tax (bottom 20 pay virtually NIL)

- Lower taxes on Kapital create more capital growth, higher taxes on capital retard capital formation (true the world over)

Chiat and Krugman are laughable. Krugman has become a bad joke, though he's obviously such a bitter motherfucker there's nothing funny anymore.

minor point, but, she's also just factually wrong on Lindsay - he was not drummed out before the first tax cut passed.

he was, of course, drummed out for saying that the iraq invasion might conceivably cost as much as....$200 billion.

Supply side economics is deeply stupid, hence its appeal to someone like Bush.

If "joejoe" would look at Treasury statistics

that second link cites all the sources used. the Institutionalized Marxist Fellows is not among them, yet the Treasury, the White House, the House, the BLS, the BEA, the CIA and others are.

too busy thinking up new acronyms to RTFA ?

in 15 years, when iraq is a stable bastion of democracy in the middle east, and we all drive george jetson rocket cars, supply side economics will have been proved right. maybe.

Of course, that quote along with the Nordhaus study was premised on the idea that it would take six monthes of longer to take Baghdad; along the lines of the British expeditions in 1914.

The rates did go down, and revenue went up; non
discretionary spending did go up in many areas
You didn't believe the Enron era accounting of the Clinton Administration 'surpluses' did you

Now Jonathan "Chaitred" Chai knows frauds after all, he worked alongside Stephen Glass, and he practically vouches for Scott Beauchamp. On second thought,. . .By the way, what ever did happen to that war story; that never really featured a incident of combat; just some insinuations of behavior.

Of course, that quote along with the Nordhaus study was premised on the idea that it would take six monthes of longer to take Baghdad; along the lines of the British expeditions in 1914.

The rates did go down, and revenue went up; non
discretionary spending did go up in many areas
You didn't believe the Enron era accounting of the Clinton Administration 'surpluses' did you

Now Jonathan "Chaitred" Chai knows frauds after all, he worked alongside Stephen Glass, and he practically vouches for Scott Beauchamp. On second thought,. . .By the way, what ever did happen to that war story; that never really featured a incident of combat; just some insinuations of behavior.

"Top 10% of earners pay over 65% of the federal income tax (bottom 20 pay virtually NIL)"

And the point is?.... that these bottom feeders aren't paying their fair share?

The top 10% of earners account for (by my numbers) 56% of total income tax revenue but they earned (surprise!) 44% of the total income. Minimum wage earners, who mostly comprise the bottom feeders, don't even live above the poverty line in most states. Only a heartless bastard would want to increase THEIR taxes...

I remember the one time I had the slightest bit of respect for Wolf Blitzer (and the one time I detected a hint of snark): he had some GOP talking head on, who was blathering about supply side economics and how cutting taxes *increase* revenues.

Wolf said: "Ok, then how much more do we have to cut taxes to eliminate the deficit"?

...and that, in a nutshell, is what puts the lie to the whole notion of supply side economics.

McCardle is rapidly earning a reputation for being a complete joke. To argue that supply-side economics is a non-issue simply flies in the face of reality. End of story. To make that claim is to announce that you are never to be taken seriously again.

"Lower taxes on Kapital create more capital growth, higher taxes on capital retard capital formation (true the world over)"

This is true only in closed economies, where capital flight is prevented or penalized, and domestic production is protected by tariffs on repatriated imports. But even in closed economies, higher taxes may still lead to capital formation due to the increase in overall wages/revenues, which can make capital start-ups - while more expensive - more profitable than if taxes were lower.

i notice that the supply siders don't mention payroll taxes. i wonder why.

Jozef:
What you can't seem to grasp is the fact that the tax cut while leading to higher revenue, don't make up for the revenue lost as a result of the tax cuts. Say for instance, you were paying 30% tax on $40,000. If you reduced the tax rate to 15%, you'd have to make $80,000 for the government to make up the revenue.

pretzel:
That's a rhetorical question, right?

Scudbucket,

Minimum wage earners are already in a negative effective tax bracket: they receive far more money from the government in grants (e.g., the EITC) than they pay in taxes. The bottom 40% of wage earners in America have negative effective income tax rates. Our tax system is highly progressive.

I linked to the pretty charts and not pure data because supply-siders make Miss Teen South Carolina look like Marie Curie. The source of the data on the IMF chart was the Office of Management and Budget - the White House's own figures if you don't know where OMB calls home. If anyone has issues with the plunging line of revenue that looks like ski slope at Jackson Hole take it up with Dickdick Cheney and the 'it's our due' crowd, not blog commenter 'joejoe' (it's joejoejoe, bitches!) who found the raw data to show supply side tax policy is bullshit in about 30 seconds on the internets.

Our tax system is highly progressive.

Oh, nonsense. You know perfectly well that isn't true. !@#$%^& whiney plutocrats . . .

Is this blog becoming the "MY vs McMegan Smackdown Show"?

Is this the new version of "Celebrity Death Match"?

Richard~

For Matt's sake, I hope not. The world's tallest female econoblogger would certainly kick his ass.

She's tall?

Oooh, like Don Rickles used to say: "You get a pick and an Alpine hat, and you yodel a lot!"

I think people don't know how tall Matt is. Now Jewish/Cuban may not at first scream big guy...

It's always amusing when someone tries to make this "oh, no one REALLY believes that tax cuts increase revenues" argument, and then all the wingnut commentors to make that very argument with a completely straight face.

Even Bruce Bartlett, rock-solid conservative and supply-side guru, is aghast at the idiocy that passes for supply-side economics these days. Any Republican candidate who didn't offer some version of "tax cuts increase revenues" would be booed off the stage today. The illiteracy is not only depressing, but very, very bad for our country.

What became of the common sense of my father's generation, when they apparently understood that you don't get something for nothing?

Steve,

See if you can follow these facts:

1) Tax rates (income and capital gains) are lower today than they were when Bush became president in 2001.

2) Bush signed tax cuts into law in mid-2001 (EGTRRA, cuts to be phased in over nine years) and mid-2003 (JAGTRRA, which accelerated the EGTRRA cuts).

3) Tax revenue is higher today than it was in 2001.

  • In 2001, federal tax revenues were $1,991,044,000,000 [~$1.99 trillion].
  • In 2006, federal tax revenues were $2,406,675 ,000,000 [~$2.4 trillion].
  • $2.4 trillion > $1.99 trillion.

    Therefore, it is possible to lower tax rates and increase tax revenue. We know this is true because that is what happened.

    You are entitled to your opinion as to whether or to what extent these tax cuts ultimately increased tax revenues by spurring economic growth, but you aren't entitled to your own facts. That facts remain that federal tax receipts are higher now than they were before the Bush tax cuts.

  • Hmmm. I'm trying to recall if there was anything interesting about the year 2001 which might suggest why tax revenues were down.

    Was there? Did anything happen in 2001 which might suggest it isn't the best starting point year to use for economic forecasting? Anything?

    As demonstrated above, just a little experience participating in internet discussions about tax policy will show how much the claim that tax cuts increase revenues has penetrated popular political discourse. And one will frequently see the particular argument above offered above in defense of this view (tax rates were cut at point in time A, tax receipts in nominal terms were higher at later point in time B, therefore tax cuts can increase revenues).

    Of course this is not a serious argument (here's a hint for those who can't figure out the problem immediately: without even looking at the tax rates at the relevant times, I'll bet you that federal tax receipts in 2006 were higher in nominal terms than they were in 1906, which were higher in nominal terms than they were in 1806--why am I so confident in those predictions?). So in my view the commonality of this obviously flawed argument supports the contention that interested parties are actively encouraging belief in this claim for political gain.

    Megan is not saying she is in FAVOR of supply side economics, just that supply side economics doesn't really exist in the way you think it does. Sounds like a classic Meganesque pointless point.

    Harry says,

    "As for the bridge in Minneapolis: Are federal tax cuts really why it collapsed?"

    Harry, I think you misread Traven's post. The line from Traven,

    "maybe we can't pay for infrastructure like the bridge in Minneapolis with fairy dust and such"

    does not mean that the supply siders won't do infrastructure repair, it just means that they don't believe in increasing revenues to pay for it. Ditto Iraq.

    A tax cut of 10% requires an increase in the base of 11.1% to equal the same amount of revenue. Has that ever happened?

    $2.4 trillion > $1.99 trillion

    The alligator eats the bigger piece, right? Does the alligator adjust for inflation and calculate revenues as a percentage of GDP as well? If not that's one stupid alligator.

    El Cid,

    "Did anything happen in 2001 which might suggest it isn't the best starting point year to use for economic forecasting?"

    I used 2001 because it was President Bush's first year in office, but if you prefer to go back to 2000, the total tax receipts for that year were 2,025,037,000,000, so $2.02 trillion versus $1.99 trillion; in either case, you are looking at an approximately 40% increase in federal tax receipts by 2006.

    DTM,

    As I wrote, you are entitled to your own opinion as to why tax revenues increased after the Bush tax cuts; my point was simply to refute the lies that tax receipts didn't increase after the Bush tax cuts (they did) and can't increase after cuts in tax rates (obviously, they can).

    Now that those facts are established, we can go back to arguing about how "fair" our tax system is. Lefties can explain why a tax system where a third of Americans have negative federal income tax rates, the top 10% of earners pay 68% of all income taxes, and the top 25% of earners pay 85% of all income taxes is not progressive enough.

    Or perhaps we can skip that tiresome debate and have a rational discussion about what sort of tax policies might get our bills paid while optimizing economic growth. Not as fun, perhaps, as tossing dishonest rhetorical brickbats about "upward wealth redistribution", but perhaps more useful.

    Typical horseshit from Juan, demonstrating that they've been getting away with suckering the rubes so long that they think they can bamboozle anyone.

    I'm just marveling at how stupid he must think we all are, to believe that his point has any relevance at all.

    The bottom 40% of wage earners in America have negative effective income tax rates. Our tax system is highly progressive.

    Yes, and all humans are mammals, therefore....

    What kind of thrill do you guys (Fred in this case) get out of non-sequitur logical fallacies? Either you just enjoy bullshitting or you actually believe this crap. If the first, then: WEIRD; if the second: STUPID. Which is it?

    ...if you prefer to go back to 2000, the total tax receipts for that year were 2,025,037,000,000, so $2.02 trillion versus $1.99 trillion; in either case, you are looking at an approximately 40% increase in federal tax receipts by 2006.

    Forty percent? 2.02 trillion (2006 revenues) divided by 2.4 trillion (2000 revenues)=.8416. That looks more like 16 percent to me.

    joejoejoe,

    "The alligator eats the bigger piece, right?

    If you aren't numerate enough to know this, perhaps this isn't the best thread for you.

    "Does the alligator adjust for inflation"

    Even after adjusting for inflation, tax revenues still increased from 2001-2006. If you want to pull up stats on the average annual inflation over those years, I'll crunch the numbers for you on my handy Texas Instruments BA II Plus financial calculator.

    "and calculate revenues as a percentage of GDP as well?"

    Why is this relevant? Is there an arbitrary percentage of GDP you feel tax receipts should equal?

    "If not that's one stupid alligator"

    Am I supposed to respond to this with a similarly puerile sentence? I'll pass.

    Steve, Jonnybutter--

    I'm no supply-sider myself, but the ol' ad hominem attacks do nothing to buttress your cases. Are you saying Juan is wrong, and tax revenues aren't up, or that the increase in tax revenue is somehow irrelevant?

    "Forty percent? 2.02 trillion (2006 revenues) divided by 2.4 trillion (2000 revenues)=.8416. That looks more like 16 percent to me."

    It's actually closer to 19%, but thanks for catching my mistake.

    the ol' ad hominem attacks do nothing to buttress your cases. Are you saying Juan is wrong, and tax revenues aren't up, or that the increase in tax revenue is somehow irrelevant?

    I can't speak for anyone else, but what I'm attacking is not the person so much as the logic; when the logic is this faulty, I have to assume either bad faith or plain foolishness. And I wasn't responding to Juan.

    What Juan is asserting is obviously not irrelevant, but rather immaterial. Yes, revenues can go up in a given period after a tax cut. So?

    One of the many problems with Juan's argument is that the entire decade of the 1990s provides the most radical refutation possible of supply side theory. It featured the largest (in gross terms) federal income tax hike in history, followed almost immediately by far faster growth in federal income tax revenues than anything seen under GWB. It's simply not possible for the version of supply side "theory" preached by the GOP to be true in the face of these facts. Of course we know the contemporary GOP isn't too big on facts.

    Also, as for the progressiveness of the American tax system, the top 1% of Americans pay 33% of their income in taxes, while the other 99% pay 29%. Tax cut advocates constantly hide the ball on the fact that the US tax system is barely progressive by selectively citing federal income tax rates, as if this was representative of what taxes people actually pay.

    Are you saying Juan is wrong, and tax revenues aren't up, or that the increase in tax revenue is somehow irrelevant?

    Sure it's irrelevant, for the very obvious reason cited by DTM.

    The only relevant question is whether federal revenues would be higher still if there hadn't been a tax cut. Every serious economist would say yes.

    As supply-side guru Bruce Bartlett acknowledges, studies of the Kennedy tax cut - which reduced the top tax rate from 91% to 70% - found that approximately one-third of the lost revenue was ultimately recouped through economic stimulus effects. So even at a marginal rate of 91%, we weren't on the other side of the Laffer curve!

    It's laughable to suggest that tax cuts today, when rates are far, far lower than in Kennedy's era, could somehow recoup more than 100% of their lost revenue through economic stimulus. It's completely crazy. Talking about how today's revenues surpass revenues during the 2001 recession is a complete non sequitur; they obviously haven't done so because of the tax cuts.

    --"As for the bridge in Minneapolis: Are federal tax cuts really why it collapsed? I doubt it. Highway spending is something Congress is usually overly generous with."

    Congress has always been generous paying for bridges to nowhere, but does squat for preventative maintenance and infrastructure repair. It's just not as sexy as the "new and shiny" stuff they can use in campaign adds. Having worked with infrastructure projects (sewer systems, water distribution, WWTP, WTP), I can tell you from experience that states and municipalities have been ignoring these infrastructure issues for decades and because Republican politicians (and some Democrats) have gotten elected by promising "no new taxes". This philosophy has led to infrastructure failures that then require immediate attention, so then the communities must take out loans, increase taxes, and/or beg for money to make the needed repairs.

    The supply-side/Laffer curve "philosophy" has been mortgaging our future for twenty-seven years now (except for the brief respite under Clinton). It is always cheaper to pay for things now, instead of the future (Econ 101). The Republicans have consciously chosen to embrace an economic philosophy that gets them elected, but bankrupts the country in the hopes of "drowning all government programs in the bathtub".

    --"Why is this relevant? Is there an arbitrary percentage of GDP you feel tax receipts should equal?"

    If you have to ask that question, you truly are ignorant.

    Don't forget. The Colts won the Superbowl after tax rates were cut. Obviously, tax cuts are good for the Indianapolis franchise. Eh? What's that you say? Unrelated. Bah. Then consider this. The Colts win after adding Antoine Bethea to their roster. Coincidence? I think not. Post Hoc rocks!

    "Post Hoc rocks!"

    So do straw men.

    What do you expect when your entire argument is simply to state that revenues were greater in 2006 than in 2001? Sorry. That does nothing to establish causality, especially that revenues are below where they would have been without the cuts, which I believe to be the case.

    It's also worth keeping in mind what has caused economic growth since Bush has taken office. We've seen a massive increase in the budget deficit, suggesting that Republicans are banking on Keynesian economics to save the day. In addition, interest rates have been artificially low compared to the money supply (some economists are starting to wonder if the US government has been printing more money than it has admitted to in order to boost economic activity), which have helped create bubbles.

    What do you expect when your entire argument is simply to state that revenues were greater in 2006 than in 2001? Sorry. That does nothing to establish causality, especially that revenues are below where they would have been without the cuts, which I believe to be the case.

    Not to mention that the Fed went on a streak of historically low interest rates at the same time.

    So here's the test for the Laffer junkies -- Bush's tax rates are still low; interest rates, ot so much. If it's truly tax rates, though, and not interest rates that were responsible for the economic growth / tax revuenue in 2001-2006, we shouldn't be seeing any change, right?

    Juan, you truly have to adjust for inflation. Once you do that there is almost no change (+1%) in real receipts from 2000-2006. Also, from 2001-2004 receipts were well below 2000 levels, and all that added to the national debt.

    I think a real, visceral conservative point underlying this stuff is "why should government receipts go up every year?". Well, fine if you think that, but government outlays have been going through the roof, so talk about what you would cut there. If you don't then you're just in favor of borrowing.

    And the Clinton surpluses were certainly not "Enron accounting", they were quite real by the very same metrics that show deficits under Bush.

    So let's see, 2 Tril in revenues in 2000, and the economy grows historically at something like 3.2% in real terms. Then there's inflation on top of that, which looks like it's been ~2.5% during the Clinton and Bush administrations.

    So let's use 5% to be conservative. We'd expect, independent of any changes in revenue collection, that the 2 tril would grow to become 2.7 trillion by 2006 (2e6*e(.05)^6) accounting for the general fact that the US economy tends to grow and for inflation.

    2.7 trillion > 2.44 trillion > 2 trillion

    QEFD

    If I was less charitable and used the true sum of the historical GDP trend (3.2%) and inflation (2.5%), we'd expect revenues to grow by 5.7% a year, getting us 2.82 trillion by 2006. So revenue growth has been barely HALF of what we'd expect over 6 years based on economic growth and inflation

    Bartlett's editorial is really all that needs to be said about supply-side economics any more.

    The valid parts have already been accepted as conventional wisdom; what remains under the label "supply-side" is nothing more than slick rhetoric designed to convince the rubes that they can have something for nothing.

    McMegan is a hack fascist who has an overly restrictive comment policy on her blog.

    "Therefore, it is possible to lower tax rates and increase tax revenue. We know this is true because that is what happened.

    You are entitled to your opinion as to whether or to what extent these tax cuts ultimately increased tax revenues by spurring economic growth"

    Yeah, but that's exactly what the supply-siders want to make us belief. The whole notion of the Laffer-curve, as I understand it, is that tax cuts do spur economic growth and do cause tax revenues to go up, so that tax revenues are in fact higher after a tax cut than they would be without it.

    Without that assumption, the notion that "tax cuts pay for themselves" makes no sense. And, as I understand it, the mainstream economists have fairly well proven this assumption to be false.

    You can't defend the supply-siders (which I'm not exactly sure Juan tries to do) by declaring yourself agnostic about their basic thesis (or better, creed).

    It is not untypical (to say the least) for economic conservatives engaged in politics to hide their ideological preferences (lower tax rates = more freedom = good) behind speculative or false factual assumptions (lower tax rates = more tax revenues) or scary tales.

    The health care debate is a perfect case in point: Instead of just saying: "no universial health care because big governement = less freedom = bad", they say "no to universal health care because socialiced medicine = NHS = long waiting lines in crumbling hospitals and no state-of-the-art treatment" which is, looking at France, simply not true.

    "What's painful for those of us who care about the planet"...

    That's so painful to read that it's actually kind of funny.

    I think if one is really honest with themselves, the case for something like the Laffer curve is quite strong as long as you believe that individuals will spend their money more efficiently than the government will. Ultimately, isn't that the trade-off?

    If you approach the 90% tax frontier you have a state-dominated system. As you approach the 10% tax frontier you have an individual-dominated economy.

    Juan, you truly have to adjust for inflation. Once you do that there is almost no change (+1%) in real receipts from 2000-2006.

    And, you still have to adjust for the growth in population (and therefore in the number of taxpayers).

    "I think if one is really honest with themselves, the case for something like the Laffer curve is quite strong as long as you believe that individuals will spend their money more efficiently than the government will."

    So how does that square with the Laffer curve claim that tax cuts produce more revenue for the government? If you think individuals will spend their money more efficiently than the government, how on god's green earth is there a strong case for giving the government MORE tax revenue?

    IT'S NOT YOUR MONEY!

    One might also recall that the (first) Reagan tax cuts came in the Kemp-Roth legislation....yes, THAT Kemp.

    I'm not going to claim to understand the Laffer Curve any better then I understand Keynsian Economics. IE, I get the gist, but miss the nuances.

    However, what this discussion is about is not Supply side economics vs. Tax and spend. It's about who pays for the costs of Government programs.

    As has been pointed out, the wealthy currently shoulder the majority of this burden. Like it or not, that makes the tax code extremely progressive.

    The wealthy also make the most money in the country. And, as a consequence, are encouraged to have the burden of Noblesse Oblige required of them by the rest of the electorate.

    So what those on the left desire is to increase the tax rates. (discounting other revenue sources for the moment) in order to distribute income through the use of Government programs. IE, spend more on infrastructure by taking money fromt he wealthy, instead of making the roads toll roads which would impact everyone who uses them. Making health care a government program, which would take money from the wealthy and give it to the rest of the electorate in the form of medical care.

    Those on the right desire to have the private sector (or a more efficient public sector) provide these types of services. Thereby limiting the size of Goverment, which in effect would lower tax rates across the board. this scenario would not eliminate costs for roads and health care, but it would devolve those costs down to the consumer.

    Finally, the more interesting post I read was that raising taxes would increase Government revenues and maintain a growing economy, ala the Clinton model from the 1990's. That being the case, are those of you on the left advocating raising tax rates across the board, in effect making the bottom 20% (or 40%, depending on the stats you choose) of the taxpayers revenue neutral? After all, with higher taxes and stronger growth, they would enjoy a higher standard of living, no?

    This is my first post
    just saying HI

    Hey, so now I am a "barking moonbat." What fun.

    However, I did predict in 1993 in several speeches that the Clinton Administration will be "the beneficiary of just the most explosive advance in technology in the history of the human race....it could engulf his Administration with prosperity in a way that would render many of his adverse policies almost irrelevant...A boom is most likely." Clinton raised tax rates on income and lowered them on capital gains in a way that skewed revenues toward capital gains, options, corporate stock buybacks and similar sources that boomed in the late 1990s.

    I have been urging the abolition or drastic reduction of the payroll tax for ten years, in testimony before Congress, in articles in the Wall Street Journal, and in speeches around the country. Taxing employment is regressively destructive of jobs and drives older people out of the economy, thus reducing overall government revenues.

    The issue of whether lower tax rates bring higher revenues cannot be determined by studying data from a single country where particular circumstances muddle the numbers. It's a global economy and countries compete for tax revenues internationally. International data show that countries with low or declining tax rates increase their government spending some three times faster than countries with high or rising tax rates, because the low tax countries grow some six times faster, attracting investment, industry, and skilled immigration.

    The US economy endured the telecom crash, nine eleven, Katrina, vast Medicare expansion, higher oil prices, CO2 panic, the subprime debacle and the Iraq war and still has a small all governmental deficit compared to other industrial countries. I believe that the deficit is now too low in relation to the yield of capital.

    Over any significant time span all around the world, lower rates yield higher revenues. With 17 countries adopting flat taxes near or under 20 percent, global revenues are booming.

    George Gilder


    Comments closed September 19, 2007.

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