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Why Aid to Israel?

04 Sep 2007 04:00 pm

In the course of diavlogging with Reza Aslan, Eli Lake takes on the $3 billion question: What is the United States getting in exchange for its money? Eli's initial answer is to try to argue that Israel is performing valuable services for the United States by serving as a part of the broader military-industrial complex, working on the development of new armaments. This doesn't really make sense, since defense contractors -- American, Israeli, French, whatever -- get paid for their work as is, so it's not clear why the Israeli government would need extra payment. And, indeed, in the course of talking about this, Eli seems to turn around and come to a position that I think is more accurate, namely that the integration of Israeli firms and IDF priorities into American military R&D and procurement strategies is further assistance to Israel on top of the money we give them.

Eli later floats another idea, namely that Israel is providing us with valuable counterterrorism training. It's certainly my understanding that there are a number of Israeli firms with expertise in things like bomb-proofing buildings that now have an expanding North American client base. Here, though, it's again unclear why it would be necessary to give the Israeli government money in order to do this. Foreign companies sell things in the United States all the time. Things like AIPAC's December 5, 2006 memo "United States Looks to Israel for Homeland Security Expertise" (PDF) don't make a particularly compelling case:

A year after establishing the partnership, both sides agreed to further commit to developing new technologies by creating the first of its kind Maryland-Israel Development Fund, a $1 million fund to support joint product development projects between high-tech companies in Maryland and Israel. The fund is managed by the Maryland-Israel Development Center, a non-profit organization established in 1992, along with Maryland's Department of Business and Economic Development and Israel's Ministry of Industry, Trade and Labor. [...]

The agreement was signed at the beginning of a week-long Illinois trade mission to Israel during which representatives from Illinois-based homeland security companies met with Israeli security industry leaders to explore future business opportunities. During the mission, the two governments also announced a business oriented exchange program to bring entrepreneurs from Illinois and Israel together to commercialize research and develop new technologies. These initiatives were launched by the Illinois Homeland Security Market Development Bureau, a government organization charged with attracting homeland security companies to the state, and the Israeli Ministry of Industry, Trade and Labor.

These sound like fairly banal state-level business initiatives that, insofar as they're a good idea, can get by on their own terms. Israel's Ministry of Industry, Trade and Labor is, presumably, interested in exploring commercial opportunities wherever they can be found. It's hard to see Israel cutting these programs off if aid were reduced.

Meanwhile, Eli also concedes that he "can't make the argument that Israel really needs that aid." But there's the core part of the Walt-Mearsheimer argument that I agree with (some of their other ideas, particularly about Iraq and Syria, seem wrong to me and their brief, deliberately one-sided account of Israeli history seemed like overkill). You have all this money going to a country that doesn't really need it, and that country doesn't do anything of particular value for us in exchange for that. Why? The existence of an unusually powerful domestic lobby on its behalf. Meanwhile, because the aid's existence is tied to a lobby that's very influential, particularly on the Hill, it's very hard for American presidents to use the aid as leverage, the way one normally would with a proxy.

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Comments (92)

Though it can also be argued that if the aid isn't all that necessary, then threatening to cut it off wouldn't have any real effect, precisely for that reason. So maybe that's the reason that presidents can't use that threat as leverage. Admittedly, it's sort of a counter-counter-intuitive plunge into the deep end of snark, but isn't it one logical conclusion of your argument?

"You have all this money going to a country that doesn't really need it, and that country doesn't do anything of particular value for us in exchange for that. Why? The existence of an unusually powerful domestic lobby on its behalf."

I think there are some other reasons behind this:

  • The defense industry lobbyists, since most of this $3 billion ultimately goes to American defense companies.
  • That this money supports high-paying jobs in numerous Congressional districts at defense companies.
  • That $3 billion represents a fraction of one percent of the federal budget, so it doesn't spark huge fights.
  • This aid gives the U.S. government leverage over Israel. Would Israel have agreed to the ill-fated Oslo Process without this leverage? If we cut off or reduced aid to Israel (which I think we should do, in conjunction with a phase-out of aid to Egypt and Jordan), we wouldn't have the leverage to pressure Israel to make concessions to the Palestinians as part of peace process.
  • Since our input hasn't been especially helpful anyway, I don't think this would be such a loss. I say phase out aid to both sides and have faith in them to work out their own problems like grown ups.

    "it's very hard for American presidents to use the aid as leverage"

    Bush the Elder accomplished excellent results by using the aid as leverage.

    In theory, we get them to pay attention to what we want. If we were to use that leverage (appropriately, not recklessly), both countries would be more secure. Sometimes you need a friend to help you out of a jam.

    Juan's content and formatting are both most excellent.

    What are we getting from Egypt? Egypt is the second largest recipient with $1.3 billion.

    What is the United States getting in exchange for its money?

    With money always comes influence.

    To take the question of "does Israel really need the money?" even further -- what is Israel getting with this money? There is a tendancy in many quarters to take whatever money one can get, but we forget all too often that we have a natural tendancy to know on which side our bread is buttered and act accordingly, even if not always consciously of that knowledge.

    Now -- is the money Israel gets worth it? Was it worth it to Israel, in the first Gulf War, to not respond when it was attacked because of fear of alienating its benefactor? Is it worth it for Israel to get resources from those whose agenda involves the destruction of all but 144,000 of the Jewish people at the battle of Armegeddon when such money is dependent on Israel acting in a self-destructive manner (such that knowing on which side the bread is buttered, Israel might tend to do agressive and ultimately self-destructive things it would otherwise not do)?

    Moreover, with money also comes the appearance of influence. A large part of Israel's problem -- c.f. some earlier posts here, or was it at Young Ezra's place? -- is that it is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as a Western colonial outpost. Does getting so much money from the US, which furthers this perception, really benefit Israel?

    I know that a lot of people in the pro-Israeli camp fancy themselves to be hard-bitten realists who would deny that Israel can do anything to change perceptions, so it might as well do what gives it the most resources (and then they wonder why Israel has a hasbara problem?) and who think that they can take money without being influenced ... but perceptions do matter, and they can be changed (but if you think the world hates you, even if you have good reason to think this way, your prophesy will be self-fulfilling) ... and money does corrupt.

    So why again does Israel accept so much US money? What ever happened to the Zionist goal of having an independent state that could be a homeland for us Jews? If Israel is to be such a US client -- if Israel and the US naturally have such the same interests -- why not just make the US a place of refuge for us Jews, pull out of the volitile mid-east and be done with it?

    Thanks Petey, but to be fair, I should have used a paragraph tag between that last bullet point and the sentence after it.

    Thanks Petey, but to be fair, I should have used a paragraph tag between that last bullet point and the sentence after it.

    That's because The Lobby got to you before you nailed down all the formatting tags.

    "Valuable Counter-Terrorism Training"

    Yeah, those insights provided by Mossad into "the Arab mind" sure proved valuable at Abu Ghraib.

    "You have all this money going to a country that doesn't really need it, and that country doesn't do anything of particular value for us in exchange for that. Why? The existence of an unusually powerful domestic lobby on its behalf"

    The aid funds the lobby A perfect virtuous circle. We pay the beneficiaries to lobby us to keep paying the beneficiaries. The benefits it should be noted have nothing to do with security or the national interests of either party. The benefits go in the end all go into the pockets of the individuals and companies and PR outfits doing the selling. It is absolutely and totally corrupt. On the other hand it's only $3 billion dollars. Hell, that much disappears from the Defense department every couple of weeks..

    There is something of a circularity here. U.S. aid increases U.S. attention toward Israel and questions about its demographic prospects versus the Palestinians; these questions drive Israel's government to offer generous welfare benefits to foreign Jews who immigrate to Israel, and this welfare makes Israel more dependent on U.S. aid. It also keeps Israeli tax rates at high levels relative to us and Western democracies with faster-growing economies.

    The irony is that if Israel cut this immigrant welfare and cut its high taxes, the resulting acceleration in economic growth would attract the same if not more Jewish immigrants. In this sense, Israel's acceptance of America's largess enables it to maintain economically harmful policies, without which Israel could be the Singapore of Southwest Asia.

    I think I also made the point that the aid package is mandated by the Camp David peace accord. So one reason the basic formula for the aid is rarely discussed is because it would mean reopening the Egypt/Israel peace treaty. Also I would stress that the $3 billion is not terribly important and I am in favor of phasing it out along the same lines David Wurmser argues in the Clean Break memo.

    The problem isn't just that we lose money and attract enmity. Its also that our elites have become too emotionally invested in Israel's fate. Without this emotional investment, I doubt the neocon push for the Iraq war ever would have happened, not to mention the current interest in bombing Iran.

    The best thing about cutting off aid to Israel and Egypt is that it would be the clearest way to signal, both to ourselves and the rest of the world, a return to a realistic foreign policy.


    Well,

    Who better to advise the people who want to keep our troops in Iraq forever than a country that has managed to keep a petty border dispute going for 60 years?

    I think I also made the point that the aid package is mandated by the Camp David peace accord. So one reason the basic formula for the aid is rarely discussed is because it would mean reopening the Egypt/Israel peace treaty.

    Help me out here. I just read the text of the accords, and I don't see anything about US financial aid. Moreover, like the Egypt/Israel peace treaty, the Camp David accords were between Egypt and Israel; the US was not a party. So tell me how it is that they mandate that the US provide any given level of aid? A specific citation to some authority would be nice.

    As Eli mentions, the aid was originally due to the camp David accords that brought peace between Egypt and Israel. I don't know much more than that though. I would like to know:

    1. Is the aid just supposed to go on in perpetuity

    2. Why does Israel get more than Egypt, is that separate from the camp david accords?

    3. What sort of flexibility is in the treaty. At times, the money has been used to pressure both countries, so it can't be too hard and fast.

    I should look into this one of these days

    Why Aid to Israel?

    Because Jimmy Carter promised it.

    (This comment is repeated from my same comment on every other post Matthew's done on the topic.)

    Why Matthew thinks it would be a good idea to unilaterally abrogate our multilateral commitments escapes me though. It is just that kind of dangerous cowboy unilateralism that gets this country into trouble.

    The U.S. and Israel signed an Memorandum of Agreement on the same day that Israel and Egypt signed the Treaty of Peace. In that MOA, the U.S. agreed as follows:

    Subject to Congressional authorization and appropriation, the United States will endeavor to take into account and will endeavor to be responsive to military and economic assistance requirements of Israel.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/moa.html

    I am not sure that this actually "mandates" very much.

    Here's a report by the Congressional Research Service on the issue. In short, nothing about Camp David mandates any aid to Israel or Egypt. Or, in other words, Eli Lake is full of shit. Shocking, I know.

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

    It has been US policy to give aid in exchange for making peace as far as nations in that region go. We give aid to Jordan and Egypt as well for signing peace treaties with Israel.

    Glenn, it is true that Camp David doesn't mandate the aid. It was an unofficial agreement. It is not binding.

    Now if one wants to make a case that it's been long enough and cut off Jordan, Egypt, and Israel(and thereby make peace with Syria less likely since they know they won't get money out of it) that's fine. But why single out Israel's aid?

    Is this another example of Wikipedia lying to me?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_Accords#Terms_of_the_agreements

    You never can tell

    "You have all this money going to a country that doesn't really need it, and that country doesn't do anything of particular value for us in exchange for that. Why? The existence of an unusually powerful domestic lobby..."

    Hi my name is Matt Yglesias and I never heard of the Camp David accords.

    It wasn't AIPAC that got Israel it's aid money, it was Jimmy Carter. Whether or not you think the money is justified or not, this analysis is devoid of any knowlege of history.

    Now if one wants to make a case that it's been long enough and cut off Jordan, Egypt, and Israel(and thereby make peace with Syria less likely since they know they won't get money out of it) that's fine. But why single out Israel's aid?

    I didn't, Matt did. I was merely pointing out Eli Lake's dissembling about whether we have any binding committments to continue it.

    But I could certainly think of some reasons to single it out: (1) it's far above what anyone else gets; and (2) Israel doesn't need it. Egypt, on the other hand, can sure use the money.

    I would like Matt to comment on W&M's more important point, that they believe the US should no longer be an ally of Israel.

    It's simple - they have nukes, and they're surrounded by hostile countries a hundred times their size. Historically, US aid to Israel exploded concurrently with their development of usable nuclear weapons and evidence that their conventional security was not nearly as great as it seemed (post the Yom Kippur war). Every dollar that goes towards their conventional military decreases the likelihood of a nuclear war in a critical and resource-rich area.

    Also, I would guess that we get some access to their intelligence about the surrounding countries, useful since their spy service is actually, you know, competent.

    Finally, the threat of withdrawal of that aid provides significant leverage to restrain them lest they decide for some reason to go willy-nilly; again this is important because they have nukes and currently the best military in the region and their ill-advised use could very well be a strategic disaster for the US whether or not we were directly involved.

    Though it can also be argued that if the aid isn't all that necessary, then threatening to cut it off wouldn't have any real effect, precisely for that reason. So maybe that's the reason that presidents can't use that threat as leverage. Admittedly, it's sort of a counter-counter-intuitive plunge into the deep end of snark, but isn't it one logical conclusion of your argument?

    Well, no. There's a big gap between "not necessary" and "totally useless." Israel could survive an aid cutoff, but that doesn't mean there aren't some concessions they would be willing to make in order to avoid one.

    Matt is engaging in the cottage industry of selectively reading Walt & Mearshimer for his own purposes. Their problem with the Israel Lobby must be his problem. But the idea that the Israel Lobby is responsible for the Iraq war is not a wacky side tangent of their theses - its the foundation stone of it.


    If the Israel Lobby's main crime against America is diverting unnecessary pork to its constituency (much of which is funneled backed into the domestic defense industry), it makes it as great a threat American national security as the farm lobby. It would accurrately render AIPAC and friends a lobby, rather than an insidious, omnipotent Lobby.


    For Matt to continue to loudly herald his minor agreements with Walt & Mearshimer while confining significant disagreements with them to sotto voce smacks of opportunism.

    mhp,

    but how has the Iraq war benefited Israel? It was obvious that the Iraq war wouldn't really benefit Israel and (if Hussein did have WMDs, given his track record, he would have attacked Israel first) it may have very well hurt Israel. So why should the Israel Lobby have pushed for the war?

    The fact of the matter is that the war was conceived for reasons other than any potential benefit to Israel. The war certainly was sold as being beneficial to Israel. But that some dupes actually believed it doesn't mean the Israel Lobby was responsible for the war in the first place.

    Unless, of course, the Israel Lobby really isn't about Israel ... in which case, let's not call it the Israel Lobby but rather the "Defense Contractor Lobby Pretending to Lobby on Israel's Behalf so that a Bunch of Jews who buy into anti-Semitic Stereotypes about Jewish 'Cleverness' and Think they are Smarter than they are will Push the US to Fund the Military-Industrial Complex thinking 'Jeez, I'm so clever that I'm getting the US to fight Israel's wars for me' even as in reality these people are tools and the proxy goes the other way around". On second thought, let's not ... "Israel Lobby" is much easier to write.

    "For Matt to continue to loudly herald his minor agreements with Walt & Mearshimer while confining significant disagreements with them to sotto voce smacks of opportunism."

    Disporportionate criticism of Israel is the most sure-fire way to prove your "progressive" credibility. You can't blame Matt for giving the people what they want.

    Just do a search of this site and you will find

    Israel= 678 hits
    China= 534 hits
    Afghanistan=414 hits
    Russia= 317 hits
    Hamas= 185 hits
    Darfur= 108 hits
    al qaida =64 hits

    LOL! And just what the fuck are those stats supposed to prove, dave? Seriously, that is one of the stupidest comments I've ever seen here. Like, Al or Fred stupid.

    1. I have twice posted a link to an article in Ynet concerning an interview with a Mr. Wilkerson who makes it clear that the entire Israeli government, from Prime Minister Sharon on down advised against the Iraq adventure. The fact that Walt and Mearsheimer claim otherwise totally discredits their book. In addition, I link to a thread on the Volokh Conspiracy web site also quoting the same interview. Mr. Wilkerson, who was an adviser to former Secretary of State Powell, is certainly in a much better position to know the facts then are outsiders like Walt and Mearsheimer.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3444393,00.html

    http://volokh.com/posts/1188614082.shtml

    2. As to the question of the aid package to Israel, I am in favor of phasing it out. Removing the lever which the aid package gives the United States over the Israeli Government would free the latter to take the necessary action to protect its citizens from the Palestinian terrorists. The aid package to Israel and Egypt was nothing but a bribe to elicit their behaving themselves.

    Re bBass

    The threat on the part of Golda Meir in 1973 to attack the Aswan dam with nuclear weapons caused Henry Kissinger to reverse his field and recommend replenishing Israels' military supplies; previously, he had recommended holding back on the resupply to force concessions from Israel.

    Re Ahmet

    1. Apparently, Mr. Ahmet is still living in the 1970s. Israel has one of the fastest growing economies in the world, especially in the high tech area. US firms are waiting in line to build high tech facilities in Israel. Because of the investment in high tech, Israels' rate of growth is higher then any country in the European Union. Israel also has the second highest rate of entrepreneurial startups in the world. There have been several articles on this subject in the Jerusalem Post, among other publications of late.

    2. The high tax rates in Israel are a result of the requirement to spend inordinate funds on military projects such as the Merkava family of tanks. However, they currently are much lower then they were 10 years ago, thanks to the actions of Bibi, who was incompetent as a prime minister but found his meatier as a finance minister under the previous government.

    Hmm Dave, that wouldn't be because you spelled "Qaeda" with an "i" would it? You don't even know the common transliteration of the group that frightens you more than spiders or talking to girls?
    Jeepers.

    "It wasn't AIPAC that got Israel it's aid money, it was Jimmy Carter. Whether or not you think the money is justified or not, this analysis is devoid of any knowlege of history."

    That was almost 30 years ago. As mentioned above, there is nothing in any treaty that says we need to give X amount to Israel. We're giving a mid-income country more aid than anyone else. Colombia and Sri Lanka (the latter of which suffers suicide attacks from the LTTE, which uses suicide bombing more than any other terrorist group) have long-running civil wars. Democracy has been rolled back in Thailand and Bangladesh recently and Pakistan not too long ago, where aid could have helped strengthen democracy. There are numerous young African democracies just emerging from civil wars like the DRC that need aid more than Israel. Ensuring Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation and a young democracy, remains democratic is also in our interests. At the end of the day, we do have a moral obligation to make sure Israel survives, but this is no different than our moral obligations to any other democracy, including larger ones. We give all of this military aid to Israel and yet both sides agreed that Israel couldn't get involved in either war in Iraq. Our aid to Israel is a dead weight on American foreign policy that just makes us complicit in Israel's actions against the Palestinians.

    "Hmm Dave, that wouldn't be because you spelled "Qaeda" with an "i" would it? You don't even know the common transliteration of the group that frightens you more than spiders or talking to girls?
    Jeepers."

    As much as it pains me to support Dave here, but I've seen both used quite commonly in the American media.

    Re Reality Man

    Mr. Reality Man is correct. Aid to Israel should be phased out, thus removing the anchor around Israels' neck which prevents the IDF from protecting Israels' citizens effectively from Kassems, homicide bombers, and Iranian threats.

    Bracing stuff, this:

    Aid to Israel should be phased out, thus removing the anchor around Israels' neck which prevents the IDF from protecting Israels' citizens effectively from Kassems, homicide bombers, and Iranian threats.

    How, precisely, will the IDF go about this task, if that awful American "anchor around Israels' (sic) neck" is removed?

    What on Earth kind of solution to the Palestinian problem is SLC proposing here?

    Re stickler

    Application of Hama rules. It was very effective for Hafaz Assad in 1982.

    "Hmm Dave, that wouldn't be because you spelled "Qaeda" with an "i" would it? You don't even know the common transliteration of the group that frightens you more than spiders or talking to girls? Jeepers."

    As much as it pains me to support Dave here, but I've seen both used quite commonly in the American media.

    Posted by Reality Man | September 4, 2007 8:45 PM

    The root of the Arabic word we call Al Qaeda or Al Qaida or Al Qa'ida is three consonants: Qaf, 'Ayn, Dal, the middle consonent being the 'Ayn. There is no English equivalent, nothing even close, it's a voiced consonant produced far back in the throat which many English speakers compare to a strangling or choking feeling when pronounced.

    So if you use a symbol such as ' to represent 'Ayn, then it would be Qa'ida, or Kaa-'i-da.

    Using linguistic conventions it can be written in Modern Standard Arabic as:
    al-qāʕida

    The triconsonantal root system is common to Arabic and Hebrew, and the roots are actually formed in the 3rd person past tense.

    Qa'ada, which is the basic form, means many things but includes 'He sat,' 'He remained behind,' etc.
    Qa'id, another form, means 'compound'.

    "Al" is simply "the".

    So there is no real and easy way to transcribe this in English, simply because there's no English consonant which is even close to 'Ayn.

    I don't mind the aid to Israel, since they are the most modern progressive regime out there; now Egypt what have we got for the 2-3 billion a year
    (Mohammed Atta, Sheik Rahman, Ayman Al Zawahiri,
    Ayub al Masri, the emir of AQ in Mesopotamia, &
    understudy to Zawahiri, the late Hamza Rabia, Seif
    al Adel, you get the idea)Interestingly, the Camp David rapprochement was really a long term project
    of the late Saudi spymaster and BCCI big wig Kamal
    Adham; according to Lacey and other chroniclers of the era). BCCI in turn was used to route supplies to ISI and Gen. Intell. preferred Muj. factions and mask arms transfer to Iraq; including the Condor missile.

    Re bBass's comment "Also, I would guess that we get some access to their intelligence about the surrounding countries, useful since their spy service is actually, you know, competent."
    -----------
    Oh yes. I especially admire that timely warning that Mossad gave us on Sept 10.

    Plus those tipoffs on Saddam Hussein's nukes. Priceless.

    "What is the United States getting in exchange for its money?"

    Nothing.

    "What are U.S. Senators and Congressman getting in exchange for U.S Money?"

    Plenty.

    re: El Cid, Reality Man
    My point wasn't that one romanization or the other is "correct" but simply that "Qaeda" is more commonly used--and that when using search results as a metric *should* be used. Dave came up with 64 hits for "Al Qaida," failing to mention the 400-odd hits generated by "Al Qaeda."

    Re SLC's comment "1. I have twice posted a link to an article in Ynet concerning an interview with a Mr. Wilkerson who makes it clear that the entire Israeli government, from Prime Minister Sharon on down advised against the Iraq adventure."
    --------
    Oh , horseshit. I gave SLC a link about 2 WEEKS ago to April 2002 testimony by Bibi Natanyahu before the US Senate in which Bibi explicitly called for the US to destroy Saddam Hussein.

    Bibi appeared before the Senate as a representative of Ariel Sharon's Government.

    A transcript of the speech is available here:
    http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0204/10/se.02.html

    Extract 1:
    NATANYAHU: "First, I must state clearly that the need to topple Saddam is paramount. I think the commitment of America and Britain to dismantle this terrorist dictatorship before it obtains atomic bombs, before it obtains nuclear weapons, deserves the unconditional support of all sane governments and all sane people around the world. "

    Extract2:
    NATANYAHU: "I must tell you that the charge that Israel, of all countries, is hindering the war against Saddam is woefully unjust, because I think that my country, more than any other, has done more to make victory over Saddam possible. 21 years ago, Prime Minister Menachem Begin sent the Israeli Air Force on a pre-dawn raid hundreds of miles away, on one of the boldest military missions in our nation's history. When our pilots returned, we had successfully destroyed Saddam's atomic bomb factory, and crippled his capacity to build nuclear weapons. Israel was safer, and so was the world. "
    --------
    Again, why does SLC NOT address the above before trying to convince the readers here that Israel was not calling for Hussein to be deposed??

    A Nov 2002 Washington Post article also reported Israeli support for an attack on Hussein:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A30629-2002Nov8?language=printer

    An Extract:

    "The prospect of an American attack on Iraq has produced a rare consensus in Israel, even amid a divisive election campaign. Sharon, Israeli leaders from both camps, and the security establishment have backed the Bush administration's war plans, and urged the United States to act without delay.

    In some ways, this is surprising. True, Saddam Hussein is one of the Jewish state's staunchest enemies. His Scud missiles hit Tel Aviv and Haifa during the 1991 Gulf War, piercing Israel's shield of invincibility and denting its ability to deter. And Hussein's nuclear ambitions have threatened Israel's atomic monopoly in the region. In recent years, however, the Israeli establishment has been content to let U.N. sanctions and U.S. and British air attacks keep the Iraqi threat in check. Successive prime ministers (with the notable dissent of Sharon) and military leaders have portrayed Iran as the more dangerous menace. At a security cabinet meeting last week, intelligence chiefs said that Iraq "poses no existential threat" to Israel. So why should Israel rush to support a war, that might expose it to biological or chemical attack? Two plausible reasons: political expediency and strategic vindication.

    Facing a stalemated war of attrition with the Palestinians, a crumbling economy and a political crisis at home, the Israeli establishment is craving a deus ex machina to save the country and put it back on a positive strategic and financial path. An American victory over Saddam Hussein would alter the regional environment and position the United States, Israel's main ally, as the chief arbiter in the Middle East.

    Some right-wing politicians like Foreign Minister (and former prime minister) Binyamin Netanyahu and cabinet member Natan Sharansky share a personal and ideological affinity with Republican conservatives in Washington. Both have argued for years that Arab democracy is the best guarantor of peace. According to this school of thought, turning Iraq into a model Arab state, run by a pro-Western regime protected by American bayonets, serves Israel's best interests. It would create a positive domino effect, as autocratic regimes throughout the Middle East would have to fight for their survival, and thus have less energy to confront Israel.

    This view is widely held at the Qirya, Israel's Pentagon in Tel Aviv. Frustrated by their failure to crush the Palestinian intifada, military leaders pin their hopes on an Iraqi war. The chief of staff, Gen. Moshe ("Bogy") Ya'alon, said last week that a successful American attack in Iraq would force a Palestinian "decision" on a post-Arafat leadership drawn "from the ranks of those who understand that terror and violence will not bring them achievements." The Israel Defense Forces chief intelligence analyst, Brig.-Gen. Yossi Kuperwasser, told the security cabinet that "this is a clash of civilizations" between the West and Islam, and Israel is in the front line.

    Israeli military strategists believe that after the fall of Hussein, Israel's other main adversaries, Iran and Syria, would reconsider their support for terrorism, stop arming Hezbollah in Lebanon and abandon their pursuit of weapons of mass destruction. Sharon has already called on the United States to target Iran after Baghdad. "

    The Wilkinson article is interesting. But I don't think the Israel Lobby is going to be able to rewrite history on this one.

    The last time I checked, Haim Saban is an Israel billionaire. Last time I checked, the Directors at the Think Tank Haim set up at Brookings was telling us in 2002 that we needed to take out Saddam before he used his WMDs. Director Kenneth Pollack , in fact, was telling us that Saddam was probably close to having a nuclear bomb. See "The Threatening Storm"

    If Sharon's government didn't want their citizen Haim Saban twisting US politics -- with almost $14 MILLION in political donations in 2000-2002, then the government of Israel had ample power to rein Haim in.

    He's their citizen. They're responsible for his actions.

    In August 2002, Voice of America reported that Sharon and his subordinates were encouraging Bush to overthrow Saddam Hussein. See
    http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2002-08/a-2002-08-16-29-Israel.cfm

    An extract:
    "Israel is urging the United States to move swiftly and decisively against Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, saying that delay will only give him more time to acquire weapons of mass destruction.

    Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon sent a message to Washington this past week, telling the Bush Administration that any delay in dealing with Saddam Hussein will only give him more time to develop weapons of mass destruction.

    Sharon spokesman Ra'anan Gissin said Israeli intelligence officials believe the Iraqi leader is stepping up efforts to produce biological and chemical weapons.

    In an interview with the American cable television network, CNN, Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres had much the same message. Mr. Peres said a military operation against Saddam Hussein will be dangerous, but he said it would be more dangerous to postpone such action. "

    In Aug 2002, CBS News also reported that the Government of Israel was encouraging the White House to overthrow Hussein. See
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/18/world/main519037.shtml

    An extract:
    "Israel To U.S.: Don't Delay Iraq Attack
    Sharon Government Urges Prompt Action Against Saddam

    JERUSALEM, Aug. 16, 2002
    (CBS) Israel is urging U.S. officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq's Saddam Hussein, an aide to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Friday.

    Israeli intelligence officials have gathered evidence that Iraq is speeding up efforts to produce biological and chemical weapons, said Sharon aide Ranaan Gissin.

    "Any postponement of an attack on Iraq at this stage will serve no purpose," Gissin said. "It will only give him (Saddam) more of an opportunity to accelerate his program of weapons of mass destruction "

    --------------
    See what kind of Mossad intelligence our $3 BILLION/Year buys us?

    Re Don Williams

    1. Relative to Bibi, it would not be at all surprising if he and Prime Minister Sharon were not on the same page. They were bitter rivals before, during, and after the time at which the speech was delivered. Now of course, Mr. Williams will claim that Bibi would have been fired if he said something at odds with Mr. Sharon. As usual, he would then demonstrate his total ignorance of the political situation in Israel at the time. Bibi was instituting very unpopular economic reforms and Mr. Sharon needed him around to take the heat. As proof, Mr. Sharon even put up with Bibis' strong public opposition to the withdrawal of settlements from the Gaza Strip. Bibi had to resign as Mr. Sharon declined to fire him.

    2. The newspaper article from the Washington Post was written by a correspondent from the left wing Israeli newspaper Haaretz, namely a Mr. Benn. This paper is not the most reliable source in Israel, having a left wing pro-Palestinian agenda and employing such anti-Zionist commentators as Amira Hess. Furthermore, the Washington Post was enthusiastically supporting the Iraq adventure at the time, as were virtually all of its editorial page writers and would have been very adverse to reporting reservations from Israeli sources. Now unless Mr. Williams is going to claim that Mr. Wilkerson is a liar, he is stuck with the problem that Wilkerson was actually talking to Israeli officials as a part of his official duties and he categorically states that all of them thought that the proposed US action in Iraq was a bad idea. Mr. Wilkerson worked for Secretary of State Powell and I don't see any reason for him to tell lies at this juncture.

    3. The fact that the US Government and the Israeli Government don't always see eye to eye should not surprise anyone. They are currently in disagreement as to the issue of regime change in Syria, with the Bush administration favoring the idea and the Olmert regime less then enthusiastic about the prospect, preferring the known devil to the unknown devil.

    Now Mr. Williams has claimed that I haven't responded to his challenges. Mr. Williams has yet to explain why the great supporter of Palestinians, Osama Bin Laden, has yet to attack any targets in Israel. He certainly has not been shy about attacking targets in the US, Great Britain, Spain, and Russia. Unlike Mr. Williams, I think actions speak louder then words. Mr. Williams also has yet to explain why the Fatah and Hamas movements shun any dealings with Al Qaeda and actively oppose its infiltration into the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Apparently, they are less impressed with Mr. Bin Ladens' vocal support of Palestinians then Mr. Williams is.

    What are we getting in exchange for $3 billion?

    Nothing. Anybody has to ask?

    Who cares? It's not anybody's money but the taxpayer - a more despised minority than "anti-Semites". If money can be given away, Congressional morons do so. It gives them power - even if it can't be directly used to benefit the country or even their own pockets - although they expect the latter.

    And of course the Israelis and the Israel Lobby reciprocate by giving these morons campaign donations. So it isn't hard to see what your average crooked Congressperson gets out of it.

    But the country. It is to laugh.

    What does "the country" get out of the $50 billion or so the state spends on the "black budget?" Do we - does anybody, including Congress - even KNOW what's in that budget?

    If *I* had $50 billion a year in slush money, I'd be running the world by Tuesday before lunch. So I have to assume the morons in power are just handing it out to their cronies in the military-industrial-security complex just like the regular monies in the budget. Otherwise I'd expect things to be working better in a world already under some sort of conspiratorial control.

    We don't even get intelligence from the Mossad. They knew about the 9/11 hijackers for months but only tossed us a vague warning sometime in August, 2001 - too late to do much about it given the lack of precise details - which they undoubtedly knew.

    They knew enough to have Israeli agents set up and ready to film the collapse of the towers, though.

    Presumably we get some sort of intelligence from them - but since it's all vetted to their self-interest, trusting it would be like trusting Iranian agent Ahmad Chalabi.

    I see SLC is still pushing the crap about "Israel didn't want us to attack Iraq" - while ignoring the fact that they did AND that Israel wanted us to attack Iran FIRST.

    The level of intellectual dishonesty this guy demonstrates on a daily basis here would floor even some of the Zionist characters over at TPM.

    As for the Wilkerson story, it's easy to see what went down there. Simple - the Israelis officials he talked to LIED to him. The Israeli government lies as a matter of course. What is so surprising that they said one thing to Wilkerson - who they knew along with Powell was not convinced about the evidence for Iraq having WMD - and another to a bunch of Congress morons - whom they knew they could snooker?

    Anybody who trusts an Israeli government official to tell the truth is on a par of stupidity with someone who trusts Bush or Cheney to tell the truth.

    Of for that matter, SLC. He's a joke.

    "The threat on the part of Golda Meir in 1973 to attack the Aswan dam with nuclear weapons caused Henry Kissinger to reverse his field and recommend replenishing Israels' military supplies; previously, he had recommended holding back on the resupply to force concessions from Israel."

    What he should have done was recommend a "precision bombing attack" of the type currently being planned for Iran but directed at Israel's nuclear arsenal and the Dimona plant - and while they were at it, just like the Iran plan, take out most of Israel's military and governmental infrastructure as well.

    Kissinger should have been like Stalin at Potsdam: "How much oil do the Israelis have?"

    Giving Israel anything at all is just pissing it down the drain. Anybody with a true "realist" foreign policy would be sucking up to the Palestinians, the Arabs and the Persians and screw the Israelis.

    But, oh, no, he was German and you can hear the pissing and moaning now about "the Holocaust" that would have ensued...

    Straight-up blackmail. That's the Zionist way - when they can't just murder somebody to get their way, as the US sailors on the Liberty can testify.

    US lives and US taxpayer money are just fodder for these Zionist thugs. It's no wonder they have a huge organized crime problem in Israel these days - that spreads far beyond Israel, as numerous news reports have established.

    Israel is nothing but a criminal enterprise writ large. Only the US government is worse.

    SLC cracks me up.

    1) I note that Natanyahu was addressing the US SENATE as a REPRESENTATIVE of Ariel Sharon's government and SLC argues " Relative to Bibi, it would not be at all surprising if he and Prime Minister Sharon were not on the same page".

    2) Does SLC realize just how stupid he sounds?

    Is it conceivable that Ariel Sharon would let a member of his government go to Washington as SHARON's REPRESENTATIVE , Address the Senate of Israel's most important Patron,and urge the US to start a war to WHICH ARIEL SHARON IS OPPOSED?

    Is that the way Israel runs its affairs?

    3) I then cite 2002 news reports from the Washington Post, the Voice of America and CBS News -- all stating that the government of Israel was encouraging the White House to attack Hussein.

    4) How does SLC respond? He claims the Washington Post article was really written by a reporter for an Israeli newpapers Haaretz -- and you know what those Haaretz people are like.

    5) My other two cites -- Voice of America and CBS News -- are harder for SLC to deal with -- since they directly quote Ariel Sharon's aide, Ranaan Gissin, as saying it was important to take our Saddam before he acquired more WMDs.

    So how does SLC deal with that? He simply IGNORES them.

    Ha ha ha ha ha

    1) I admit the Wilkinson story is interesting -- although I haven't seen it in the Washington Post or NY Times. But given my deep contempt for those papers, that doesn't bother me.

    2) What bothers me is that Mr Wilkinson's claims are only being made now in 2007 -- with publication of Mearsheimer and Walt's book.

    3) So it will be interesting to see if the two contradictory accounts can be reconciled -- or if the Israel Lobby will take a leaf from the Roman Catholic Priests. When the priests are put in a corner, they simply proclaim "It's a MYSTERY".

    Mysteries , for some reason, makes me suspect I'm being snowed.

    4) You know. Mysteries like Kenneth Pollack saying in a NY TImes editorial that his intelligence contacts reported being pressured by the White House to slant intelligence -- only to have the Iraq Commission later say they found no evidence of such pressure.

    Remarkable how this degenerates into the Al Jazeera essay program; Richard. Next thing
    you'll say is the Israeli's actually caused
    9/11. Ironically, it was Kissinger ignoring his own history and a CIA report re; Water pumps
    being bought by Egypt to blast the sand berms in
    the Sinai; along with reports of coordinations between Sadat, King Hussein et al that led to the Yom Kippur War. Watergate and the silly Saturday night Massacre; set the stage for these events. When the Israelis were caught off guard; that's when the airift went into effect. Not long after
    this came the Saudi contribution; the oil embargo
    ordered by the Wahhabi ummah class. Then General
    George Brown's Lindberghesque locutions; (are they foot-noted in Walt and Mearsheimer, too)

    David Bromwich over at HuffPo sums up Israel's connection to the war in Iraq as follows:

    =============================================
    "The truth is that many new facts are in this book, and many surprising facts. By reconstructing a trail of meetings and public statements in 2001-2002, for example, the authors show that much of the leadership of Israel was puzzled at first by the boyish enthusiasm for a war on Iraq among their neoconservative allies. Why Iraq? they asked. Why now? They would appear to have obtained assurances, however, that once the "regime change" in Iraq was accomplished, the next war would be against Iran.

    A notable pilgrimage followed. One by one they lined up, Netanyahu, Sharon, Peres, and Barak, writing op-eds and issuing flaming warnings to convince Americans that Saddam Hussein was a menace of world-historical magnitude. Suddenly the message was that any delay of the president's plan to bomb, invade, and occupy Iraq would be seized on by "the terrorists" as a sign of weakness. Regarding the correct treatment of terrorists, as also regarding the avoidance of weakness, Americans look to Israelis as mentors in a class by themselves.

    So a war projected years before by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz--a war secured at last by the fixing of the facts around the policy at the Office of the Vice President--was allowed to borrow some prestige at an intermediate stage by the consent of a few well-regarded Israeli politicians. Yet their target of choice had been Iran. They accepted the change of sequence without outward signs of doubt, possibly owing to their acquaintance with the Middle East doctrine espoused by the Weekly Standard and the American Enterprise Institute--a doctrine which held that to create a viable order after the fall of Iraq, regime change in Iran and Syria would have to follow expeditiously.

    To sum up this part: the evidence of Mearsheimer and Walt suggests that Israel was never the prime mover of the Iraq war. Rather, once the Cheney-Wolfowitz design was in place, the Israeli ministers who trooped through American opinion pages and news-talk shows did what they could to heat up the war fever. This war was on the cards before they threw in their lot with Cheney and Bush; by their efforts they merely helped to confer on the plan an aura of legitimacy and worldly wisdom."
    ===========================================

    This pretty clearly blows SLC's ruminant evacuation out of the water.

    But it goes further than that, as Bromwich continues"

    ===========================================
    "This much, one might know without the help of Mearsheimer and Walt. But without their record, how many would trace the connection between the removal of Philip Zelikow as policy counselor of the state department, at the end of 2006, and a speech Zelikow had given in September 2006 urging serious negotiation and a two-state solution for Israel and Palestine? The ousting of Zelikow was a blessing to the war party, since it freed them from a skeptical confidant of Secretary of State Rice--perhaps the only person of stature anywhere near the administration whom she treated as an ally and friend. And the meaning of the change was clear when Zelikow's replacement turned out to be Eliot Cohen: a neoconservative war scholar and enthusiast, an early booster of the "surge" on the pundit shows, and incidentally a shameless slanderer of Mearsheimer-Walt ("Yes, It's Anti-Semitic," Washington Post, April 5, 2006).

    From Zelikow to Cohen was only a step on the long path of humiliation that now stretched before Condoleeza Rice. When, in March 2007, amid suggestions of a renewal of diplomacy, she intimated that talks might be helpful in dealing with the Hamas-Fatah unity government (whose formation the Arab world had greeted as offering a promise of peace), she was demolished by an AIPAC-backed advisory letter bearing the signatures of 79 senators, which directed her not to speak with a government that had not yet recognized Israel. From that moment Rice was effectively neutralized."

    ==========================================

    In other words, AIPAC directly mustered 79 Senators to put Rice under control (not that it probably needed that much to do it - one probably would have sufficed.)

    But it gets WORSE. Yes, the ol' "dual loyalty" issue comes up with a direct quote from Elliott Abrams:

    =============================================
    "How mad is Elliott Abrams? If one passage cited by Mearsheimer-Walt is quoted accurately, it would seem to be the duty of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to subject Abrams to as exacting a challenge as the Senate Judiciary Committee brought to Alberto Gonzales. The man at the Middle East desk of the National Security Council wrote in 1997 in his book Faith or Fear: "there can be no doubt that Jews, faithful to the covenant between God and Abraham, are to stand apart from the nation in which they live. It is the very nature of being Jewish to be apart--except in Israel--from the rest of the population." When he wrote those words, Abrams probably did not expect to serve in another American administration. He certainly did not expect to occupy a position that would require him to weigh the national interest of Israel, the country with which he confessed himself uniquely at one, alongside the national interest of a country in which he felt himself to stand "apart...from the rest of the population." Now that he is calling the shots against Hamas and Hezbollah, Damascus and Tehran, his words of 1997 ought to alarm us into reflection."

    =============================================

    It doesn't get more obvious than this!

    What do you people need - a road map from Rand McNally?

    Is anybody here going to take SLC seriously after this? Is anybody here that ridiculous?

    Re SLC's comment "Mr. Williams also has yet to explain why the Fatah and Hamas movements shun any dealings with Al Qaeda and actively oppose its infiltration into the Gaza Strip and West Bank"
    -----------
    Actually, Bin Laden already explained it . He said the PLO was a pack of pussies who had been Israeli bitches for decades -- engaging in negotiations and getting nothing.

    Citation available on request.

    If it weren't for the Zionist influence over our government we could be allies with Bin Laden today instead of enemies. After all, we were allies against the Soviets.

    It's still possible. All we need to do is:

    1) End our occupation of Afghanistan and support for the puppet government we installed there.

    2) Same as above for Iraq.

    3) End all military and economic aid to Israel as well as the Arab dictators in Egypt and Jordan.

    4) End our support of Musharef in Pakistan and announce we will let the Pakistani people determine their own affairs.

    If it weren't for the Zionist influence over our government we could be allies with Bin Laden today instead of enemies.

    Damn, those pesky Jews are preventing us from being allies with a fanatical mass murderer and hyper religious zealot.

    Don, you crack me up sometimes.

    Emphasis on sometimes.

    Nice post.

    Don,

    Do you think there's anything else we'd have to do to be "allies" with Osama?

    You know, you kind of left out - for whatever reason, I won't speculate why - his chief, stated complaint driving his hatred towards the U.S., which is our relationship with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia - you know, where he says we're "plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people."

    Don't you think we'd kind of have to knock of Abdullah and hand the keys to the Kingdom over to Al Qaeda, I mean, if we really wanted to be allies with him...

    Or do you not think that's important to your favored prospective ally?

    And if not, please tell us why?

    SoCal Justice

    I did NOT make the post at September 5, 2007 1:19 AM -- someone else did it and forged my name.

    Whoever did it evidently does not understand the law re identity thief, libel,etc --or that Internet sites have to cough up info when given a court order.

    It deeply pisses me off. Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are enemies of our country. The fact that I think we have other enemies --including some who pose as friends or even as citizens -- does not change that.

    I have pointed out where Bush lied to this country re what is motivating Al Qaeda -- not to support Al Qaeda -- but to point out how they are recruiting adherents.

    The way to deal with underground groups is to separate them from the population so that you can recruit informers and spies. That means that you have to address legitimate grievances --especially when those grievances are being caused by special interests groups pursuing their own selfish agendas at the expense of the national interest.

    CNN, not Netanyahu, says he is speaking for Sharon, which is just wrong. N. also says, "I think that Israel must now do three things.First, it must dismantle Arafat's terrorist regime and expel Arafat from the region."

    This was not Israeli government policy, and Israel of course never did this. Netanyahu was speaking for Netanyahu, not the Israeli gov't. Good try, though.

    And btw, Haim Saban is an American citizen.

    http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/10/07billionaires_Haim-Saban_SG68.html

    Re Don Williams

    1. I repeat my question to Mr. Williams. Is Mr. Wilkerson a liar? Mr. Williams can obfuscate all he wants and invoke Bibi all he wants but the bottom line is very simple. Is Wilkerson a liar? Thats a yes or a no. By the way, there is an interesting post on Wilkerson by Andrew Sullivan at his Atlantic blog indicating that he is far from an acolyte of the Bush administration.

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/09/hillary-and-bar.html

    2. "Actually, Bin Laden already explained it . He said the PLO was a pack of pussies who had been Israeli bitches for decades -- engaging in negotiations and getting nothing."

    So I guess that Hamas is also a bunch of pussies as their affection for Al Qaeda appears to be no greater then that of the Fatah faction. By the way, does Mr. Williams think that Mr. Bin Laden would accept a peace treaty signed by Mr. Olmert, Mr. Abbas, Mr. Haniyeh, and Mr. Mashaal? Somehow I think that, in the unlikely event of such a peace treaty, the latter three gentlemen would immediately go on to Mr. Bin Ladens' hit list for treason to the Islamic cause. I suspect they would be no more popular in the thoughts of Mr. Amadinejad and the mullahs in Iran.

    3. "I did NOT make the post at September 5, 2007 1:19 AM -- someone else did it and forged my name."

    I would suggest that Mr. Williams make a formal complaint to Mr. Yglesias concerning this serious infraction. Given the nature of the comment, which sounds much like the screeds of Mr. Hack, that would be the direction my suspicions would take me. Mr. Hack is either a Mossad agent attempting to discredit the anti-Zionist position or a very deranged individual. In either case, he seems like a likely candidate for this infraction.

    Re Richard Steven Hack

    Antisemitic fascist cocksucker Mr. Hack continues his insane rantings. The suspicions of Mr. Hack being a Mossad agent attempting to discredit the anti-Zionist cause certainly gains respectability every time he posts his screeds on this blog.

    Don,

    I did NOT make the post at September 5, 2007 1:19 AM -- someone else did it and forged my name.

    Sorry about my responses. That's pretty low.


    Re davidb's comment's "Netanyahu was speaking for Netanyahu, not the Israeli
    gov't. Good try, though."
    ----------
    1) This is ridiculous. The Government of Israel-- ARIEL SHARON's OWN OFFICE -- ITSELF put out a Press Release in early April 2002 Stating that Netahyahu was going to Washington at Ariel Sharon's request.

    See http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Archive/Press+Releases/2002/04/Spokesman5444.htm

    "PM Sharon meets Binyamin Netanyahu.
    (04/04/2002)
    Prime Minister Ariel Sharon met today (Thursday), 4.4.2002 with Binyamin Netanyahu. The meeting went well and continued longer than planned.

    The meeting dealt mainly with the diplomatic-communications campaign in the United States and Europe.

    Binyamin Netanyahu responded positively to Prime Minister Sharon's request to energetically contribute to efforts to ward off the international pressures on Israel in its just struggle against terror. "


    2) There are also several news reports from April 2002 stating that Sharon had INVITED
    Natanyahu to make Israel's case in Washington. Some examples:

    New York Times, April 5, 2002: "Bush's Gamble"
    "Yet Mr. Sharon has been maneuvering recently to shore up his hard right, a fact that should catch Mr. Arafat's attention. Before he knew the contents of Mr. Bush's speech, Mr. Sharon met today with Benjamin Netanyahu, the former prime minister, his harshest right-wing adversary, and invited him to help make Israel's case
    for its military operation to the world."

    3) In Nov 2002, Ariel Sharon appointed Netanyahu to be Israel's FOREIGN MINISTER. See
    http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1468024.html


    Re davidb's comment's "Netanyahu was speaking for Netanyahu, not the Israeli
    gov't. Good try, though."
    ----------
    And was Ariel Sharon's own spokeman, Ranaan Gissin, merely speaking for Ranaan Gissin --not for Ariel Sharon -- when he urged the US to attack Saddam Hussein before Hussein could acquire more WMDS?

    Was Israel's Foreign Minister at the time, Shimon Peres, merely speaking for Shimon Peres --not for Ariel Sharon's government -- when he made the same point as Ranaan Gissin?

    See http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/18/world/main519037.shtml and
    http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2002-08/a-2002-08-16-29-Israel.cfm

    Gee, I wonder how Sharon ever managed to govern with all these subordinates wondering off the reservation and pushing policy contrary to Sharon's wishes.

    Don Williams wrote "If it weren't for the Zionist influence over our government we could be allies with Bin Laden today instead of enemies."

    A post like this makes me wonder if Don Williams isn't someone trying to make "progressives" look bad on purpose.

    Re Dave's comment "Don Williams wrote "If it weren't for the Zionist influence "
    ---------
    As I ALREADY noted above, the 1:19 AM post was NOT written by me -- it was written by an imposter who used my name.

    Re SoCalJustice's comment "Sorry about my responses"
    ---------
    That's Ok. I probably would have done the same.

    Re davidb's comment "And btw, Haim Saban is an American citizen"
    --------
    Haim Saban is an Israeli citizen who has gained dual American citizenship. If anyone has any question of where Haim Saban's loyalties lie, I suggest they read Haim's Dec 2006 interview with Haaretz: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/798292.html

    An excerpt:
    "Haaretz: You said once that you are a one-note person, and that note is Israel. Why?

    "Saban: You can't explain love."

    Haaretz: It's really love?

    "Saban: More than love. Passion. A love that is passion."

    Haaretz: Please explain.

    "Saban: When we approach Israel I always ask the pilots of my plane to let me sit in the chair between them. We don't play 'Heveinu Shalom Aleichem,' but when I see the coast coming up my heart starts to go boom, boom, boom."


    Excerpt 2:
    "Haaretz: Do you still feel, as you once did, that America's attitude toward Israel is liable to deteriorate?

    "Saban: At the moment there is no sign of a crisis. But we must not be complacent. The two pillars of the state are the Israel Defense Forces and the U.S., Dimona [the site of Israel's nuclear reactor] and Washington. We must do all we can to maintain the alliance with America. A major crisis at the wrong time could be a disaster, a disaster."

    Haaretz: Do you feel that as an Israeli-American of influence your mission is to prevent that crisis?

    "Saban: You said it."

    Excerpt3:
    "Haaretz: Do the Jews have a future in America?

    "Saban: Yes, certainly. It's a strong community, Hillel is active on college campuses. But there is also assimilation. Take me. Even though my wife is not Jewish, I did not assimilate. But my son will not have the same affinity for Israel that I have. I would like to see him in uniform. I think it is the duty of every Jew to serve in the IDF. He wanted to enlist in the past, but he's not talking about that anymore."
    ------------
    NOTE: My understanding is that it is illegal for US citizens to serve in the military of a foreign power.


    Re SLC's comment "I repeat my question to Mr. Williams. Is Mr. Wilkerson a liar?"
    -----------
    1) I haven't decided yet.

    One of the problems is that the Israel Lobby seems to exert great pressure for the US government to do something -- then tries to rapidly diassociate itself from the action once the die is cast. So that it won't be blamed for the negative consequences. The Israel Lobby had won the first day of the attack on Iraq in March 2003. All it had to do then was wipe off its fingerprints.

    2) Nevertheless, the historical record seems to indicate there was a complex debate within Sharon's government around the start of 2002. This Feb 2002 Wash Post article does confirm that Sharon thought Iran was the greater threat -- and preferred that the US take out Iran first:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A35510-2002Feb6?language=printer

    3) A guy named Martin Kramer provides a good argument that Sharon wanted the US to attack Iran in preference to dealing with Saddam later -- but agreed to support the White House when the WHite House decided to go for Iraq first. See
    http://www.geocities.com/martinkramerorg/2006_04_12.htm

    4) Martin's argument has some appeal to me because he does something very unusual for US political discourse. He actually provides evidence for his points. Cites to past news articles.

    5) I do disagree with his final conclusion -- that Israel acted like a loyal client. I hardly see trying to encourage the US government to go to war on Israel's behalf as being a docile client.

    6) Plus, there's no denying that the US Neocons and US Israel Lobby was beating the drums for war on Iraq. The US Lobby is somewhat independent of the government of Israel --certainly, it is as casual about Israeli citizens bleeding for its policies as it is about US soldiers bleeding for its policies.

    7) Finally, as I've noted, the Iraq War was driven by a marriage of several interest groups. Bush/Cheney's patrons probably wouldn't care if Israel was nuked off the face of the planet tomorrow. But they saw an alliance with the US Israel Lobby as a way to gain support for their seizure of Iraqi oil.

    8) The primary point, in my opinion, is one that I've made repeatedly: that NONE of these groups give a shit about what is in the interest of the American people.

    All seem to regard us as a herd of stupid sheep -- to be conned, deceived, used and discarded. So far, we've lost 6000 dead, thousands crippled for life, and $2 Trillion to the malign influences of these groups.

    Caveat: One of Martin Kramer's sources --
    Laurie Mylroie -- has been pretty well discredited, in my opinion. See
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_Mylroie and especially http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_Mylroie#Criticism


    Laurie co-authored a book with Judith Miller (where have I heard that name before.) Naturally, Laurie now works at the American Enterprise Institute.

    Re Don Williams

    "One of the problems is that the Israel Lobby seems to exert great pressure for the US government to do something -- then tries to rapidly diassociate itself from the action once the die is cast."

    The problem here is that apparently Mr. Wilkerson is claiming that the Israeli reservations were made known before the final decision to invade Iraq was made. By the way, the same Israeli reservations relative to the US infatuation with regime change in Syria are occurring, although they have only been reported so far in the Israeli press. As I have previously stated, many in the Israeli Government the known devil over the unknown devil. The experience in Iraq probably contributes to these reservations where it appears that the known devil Saddam Hussein was not necessarily worse then the devils that replaced him.

    "Plus, there's no denying that the US Neocons and US Israel Lobby was beating the drums for war on Iraq. The US Lobby is somewhat independent of the government of Israel --certainly, it is as casual about Israeli citizens bleeding for its policies as it is about US soldiers bleeding for its policies."

    1. Mr. Williams should get over his infatuation with the notion that the Israel lobby runs US foreign policy. The fact is it is the US reliance on imported oil that runs US foreign policy. The economic consequences of a cutoff of Middle East oil on not only the US but the entire Western World are so catastrophic that I hesitate to even contemplate them. The best way to reduce US involvement in the Middle East is to reduce US dependence on Middle East oil. If the rest of the world were independent of Middle East oil, the Israelis and the Arabs would have been forced to settle their differences long ago because nobody outside the region would give a shit about them.

    2. By the way, here's an oped in the Ynetnews by an Arab commentator claiming that the Palestinians actually prefer the much maligned Bibi as a negotiating partner over the Israeli left representatives. Thus, the following excerpt

    "The analysis offered by the Palestinians is very interesting. They say that the Right is better for peace than the Left and bring up many examples to back this up, ranging from the peace treaty with Egypt signed by the government of the late Menachem Begin to the Hebron deal signed by Netanyahu and the Gaza withdrawal carried out by Ariel Sharon, who the Palestinians viewed as a strong rightist.

    The Right is good for peace and the Left is good for war – this is the way the Israeli political map is perceived in the eyes of the Palestinian neighbors and Arab leaders. Their analysis is simple. When the Left wishes to pursue peace moves, that is, withdrawals, it is curbed by the Right and religious parties, and at times even the Arab Knesset members’ bloc is not enough to help the Left secure the needed majority."

    Much like the old saw that only Nixon could go to China.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3441957,00.html

    RE SLC's comment "The best way to reduce US involvement in the Middle East is to reduce US dependence on Middle East oil. If the rest of the world were independent of Middle East oil, the Israelis and the Arabs would have been forced to settle their differences long ago because nobody outside the region would give a shit about them."
    ------------
    It really makes my head hurt, but I agree with SLC on this. If we diverted even $100 Billion from our $1 Trillion defense budget into a crash Manhattan Program in advanced physics, it would pay enormous dividends. An investment that would yield returns decade after decade.

    But any kid genius smart enough to make new discoveries is smart enough to know that he would be a fool to make physics a career in today's environment. That after spending 8 years and $200,000 to acquire a PhD, he would be doomed to competing with Indians and Chinese for low-paying jobs.

    Such perverse incentives --from incompetent governments -- is why nations fall.

    NOTE: My understanding is that it is illegal for US citizens to serve in the military of a foreign power.

    Don, that's not the case.

    It's not illegal - but can become so if that foreign power is engaged in combat with the U.S. or defined as an enemy force.

    For example, it is illegal for American citizens to sign up with the Taliban to fight us in Kabul.

    It is not illegal for American citizens to join the French Foreign Legion, the Canadian armed forces, British armed forces, etc...

    Until we invade Canada, that is. If you've served in a foreign army, you won't be eligible for a U.S. gov't security clearance (in most cases), but it's not like they lock you up or fine you.

    Plenty of American citizens have served in foreign armed forces.

    Re SoCalJustice

    Recall the Americans who served in the RAF in 1940/41. I believe that Congressman Rahm Emanual also did a hitch in the IDF, although I may be thinking of someone else. He wouldn't have been eligible to serve in the US Armed Forces anyway because he is missing his right middle finger.

    Re Don Williams

    I would certainly agree with Mr. Williams that the US (and other Western nations) should have been spending a lot more money on energy research over the last 30 years. However, a cautionary note from someone who worked for a greater amount of of time then I care to contemplate in a Federal Agency Research facility. The problems won't be solved by just throwing money at them. And they won't be solved by depending on crooked contractors (I could supply chapter and verse about the venality of Government contractors and how they screw the government). The old saw that says if we can send a man to the moon, why can't we solve our energy problems is not applicable. The energy issues are far more complicated then sending a man to the moon which really only involves the development of large rocket engines.

    Let me provide an example. Back in 1970, it was estimated that controlled nuclear fusion reactors would be on line in 30 years. Well, here we are in 2007, 37 years later and controlled nuclear fusion doesn't seem to be much closer to reality. I doubt that such reactors will be on line in 2047. It is not clear that spending double what has been spent on this technology would have made much difference. There are just some problems that take time to solve and no amount of money can shorten that time.


    Errr, the weird thing is that SLC and Don Williams aren't disagreeing!

    SLC is talking about a period of time in late 2001 / early 2002, and Don is talking about late 2002 and after.

    Don: "Nevertheless, the historical record seems to indicate there was a complex debate within Sharon's government around the start of 2002. This Feb 2002 Wash Post article does confirm that Sharon thought Iran was the greater threat -- and preferred that the US take out Iran first:"

    I.E., the impetus behind the Iraq invasion was the Bush administration - the Israelis wanted a significantly different policy. The Bush administration quietly pressured Israel to publically support Iraq's invasion as opposed to the Israeli government's own most-favored plans.

    Now, Israel did eventually go along with what proved to be a very poor decision for the US. But plenty of other nations did the same (the UK, Australia, Italy, etc.). Israel basically acted like many other nations within the American sphere of influence, and went along with what the duly constituted US government (the global hegemon) wanted.

    We can readily argue whether an invasion of Iran was a particularly beneficial policy for the US (it wouldn't be, in my view). But that's actually the point: the Israelis didn't dictate US policy - the US had its own policy, didn't pay a huge amount of attention to Israel's initial advice in early 2002 (however good or bad that advice was, it made little eventual impact) and did what America's government of that moment wanted to do for the Bush administration's own reasons (which initially didn't compel much respect in Israel).

    Sorry, but that tends to invalidate the depiction of the Israel Lobby. Israel probably did later come to see benefits for itself in the Iraq invasion, but all that tells us is Israel is as self-interested as the UK or Italy or Australia - and we don't hear too much about the damned British Lobby pushing the US into stuff.

    Re burritoboy's comment "Sorry, but that tends to invalidate the depiction of the Israel Lobby. Israel probably did later come to see benefits for itself in the Iraq invasion, but all that tells us is Israel is as self-interested as the UK or Italy or Australia - and we don't hear too much about the damned British Lobby pushing the US into stuff. "
    ---------------
    Wrong on several counts, burrittoboy.

    1) One, I made an explicit distinction between the official actions of the government of Israel versus the US Israel Lobby.

    Parts of the US Israel Lobby --Neocons like Richard Perle, Williams Kristol, Charles Krauthammer, etc -- had been louding pushing for the overthrow of Saddam Hussein for years. They sent a letter to George Bush that was NOT support -- rather, it was a demand and a threat.

    2) Two, when Sharon decided to support the White House, he acted AGAINST the People of the United States.

    His subordinates -- Netanyahu, Ranaan Gissin, Shimon Peres -- were all telling the Senate and People of America that Hussein had Weapons of Mass Destruction and that it was essential that we attack Hussein before we were hit.

    Yes, our own President was lying us into an unnecessary war -- but the Government of Israel was spreading those same lies among us. As was the Government of Great Britain.

    Why should we continue to give those people $3 Billion/year? Why should We the American People consider them allies and not enemies??

    3) Three, the Government of Israel is responsible for the actions of the citizens of Israel within the US --including the actions of billionaire Haim Saban. When Haim Saban sets up a Middle East Policy Center at Brookings and employees of that Center -- Kenneth Pollack and Martin Indyk -- put out books and LA Times OpEds assuring us that intelligence shows Hussein has WMDS --maybe nuclear bombs -- then the State of Israel bears blame if subsequent events show that 3500+ Americans died in an unnecessary war to interdict nonexistant WMDS.

    Again, why should We the People consider such a country to be our friend?

    4) Four, When the Democrats in Congress are cowed into ineffectual silence --because they fear the massive wealth of the Israel Lobby will destroy them in the next election if they act in the interest of America -- why should we not HATE those whose intimidation has caused the unnecessary deaths of 3500+ Americans? Not just the US Israel Lobby but the minions of Big Oil and Big Defense as well?

    WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? You don't dispute my facts. But you appear to be so compelled to defend the US Israel Lobby that you are indifferent to the severe damage this country has suffered --for NO reason. Don't you even realize that American Jews were among our people who have died in New York City and in Iraq?

    5) Israel should remember that --like ancient Rome-- the USA is a Republic, Not a Monarchy.

    The Government of Israel had better enjoy the friendship of President Bush -- that treasure is rapidly diminishing in value and will be gone soon.

    The enmity of the Senate and People of America, on the other hand, is just starting.


    Plus, the Government of Israel didn't really support the USA.

    Supporting the USA would have been Israel helping our soldiers in a war waged, in part , for Israel's benefit. But I haven't seen very many Israeli battalions running around Iraq. Or 5-man squads, for that matter.

    Conversely, injecting false information into our national discourse is not the act of a friend or an ally.

    Re Don Williams

    Before I lay the wood to Mr. Williams, I would appreciate it if he would inform us as to whether the last two comments posted under his name were in fact written by him. They sound a lot more like fascist cocksucker Richard Steven Hack. If his name has again been hijacked, I strongly urge him to file an official complaint with the authorities at the Atlantic.com and demand that the hijackers' IPA be noted and blocked.

    "Two, when Sharon decided to support the White House, he acted AGAINST the People of the United States."

    Even so, he acted as the US government wished, and not as he wished. The US government was controlling Israel's policies, not vice-versa. Sure, ideally, Sharon might have publically opposed the Bush administration - but the whole chain of events doesn't substantiate that Israel's policies or the Israel Lobby determined the US' policies on Iraq.

    "Three, the Government of Israel is responsible for the actions of the citizens of Israel within the US --including the actions of billionaire Haim Saban. When Haim Saban sets up a Middle East Policy Center at Brookings and employees of that Center -- Kenneth Pollack and Martin Indyk -- put out books and LA Times OpEds assuring us that intelligence shows Hussein has WMDS --maybe nuclear bombs -- then the State of Israel bears blame if subsequent events show that 3500+ Americans died in an unnecessary war to interdict nonexistant WMDS."

    You've been told, repeatedly (which you keep ignoring), that Saban is also a citizen of the US. We don't know that Saban knew at the time that the claims that Hussein had WMD were false. How Israel is supposed to prevent or even control a man who primarily resides in the US from spending his US-earned money on US think tanks (a perfectly legal and even encouraged activity in the US) ..... I'm not sure. There was no shortage of US-born Christian billionaires who equally or even more lavishly funded such think tanks.

    "Parts of the US Israel Lobby --Neocons like Richard Perle, Williams Kristol, Charles Krauthammer"

    Who were arguing for a policy that was not Israel's desired policy at that moment. These figures wanted something that was primarily driven by the US' own foreign policy or internal policy debates, not Israel's. If they had really been acting solely at Israel's behest, they would have focused on Iran, not Iraq (not that they didn't eventually want action against Iran as well, but after the invasion of Iraq - a massive policy disagreement with Israel). So, they weren't lobbying for Israel when they lobbied for Iraq War II - they were primarily lobbying for the domestic Bush administration.

    "Supporting the USA would have been Israel helping our soldiers in a war waged, in part , for Israel's benefit. But I haven't seen very many Israeli battalions running around Iraq. Or 5-man squads, for that matter."

    The US itself didn't want Israeli troops in Iraq.

    "because they fear the massive wealth of the Israel Lobby will destroy them in the next election if they act in the interest of America -- why should we not HATE those whose intimidation has caused the unnecessary deaths of 3500+ Americans?"

    But the current duly-elected American administration caused those deaths, not Israel. The Democrats clearly aren't solely afraid of the Israel Lobby - the Israel Lobby didn't particularly push all the other nonsense initiatives of the Bush administration (judges, FISA, etc.) that the Democrats rolled over for just as easily as any Israel-related issues.

    AIPAC doesn't even list supporting Iraq War II as an objective (much less as a primary objective). Instead, it primarily talks about the Occupied Territories, Iran and Syria. (Which the Bush Administration really hasn't done that much about, considering how much they did in Afghanistan and Iraq).

    Re burritoboy

    I would be careful to ascertain that Mr. Williams actually posted those comments under his name. Earlier on this thread, his name was hijacked by somebody else.

    The comments posted at 7:17pm and 7:25pm were posted by me.

    Re burritoboy's comment "Even so, he acted as the US government wished, and not as he wished. The US government was controlling Israel's policies, not vice-versa. Sure, ideally, Sharon might have publically opposed the Bush administration - but the whole chain of events doesn't substantiate that Israel's policies or the Israel Lobby determined the US' policies on Iraq."
    --------
    1) That depiction of US-Israeli relations at the time is not true.

    If you look at the events of the time, Bush sent Colin Powell to Israel to try to jump start the peace process after Israel started kicking the crap out of the Palestinians in response to a series of suicide bombings. Bush demanded Sharon withdraw Israeli forces and Sharon basically told Bush to go screw himself -- and then sent Netanyahu to the US to lobby on behalf of Israel.

    Joe Lieberman arranged for Netanyahu's address -- an act that was strongly criticized by Joe Biden given that it undercut a diplomatic effort by the President while the President's Representative was abroad. After a strong push by the Israel Lobby, a rally on the Mall,etc Bush threw in the towel and Colin Powell returned to the US with his tail between his legs.

    Given the circumstances, I can halfway understand Sharon's aggressive stance on responding to the bomb attacks, even though Israeli combat operations obviously hurt US attempts to find an elusive Al Qaeda by recruiting spies and informers within the Islamic world.

    2) But what was TOTALLY UNJUSTIFIED was for Representatives of Israel to falsely tell the American people that :
    a) Israeli intelligence officials have gathered evidence that Iraq is speeding up efforts to produce biological and chemical weapons

    b) "Any postponement of an attack on Iraq at this stage will serve no purpose," [Sharon Spokesman] Gissin said. "It will only give him (Saddam) more of an opportunity to accelerate his program of weapons of mass destruction."

    c) That "a military operation against Saddam Hussein will be dangerous, but he[Shimon Peres] said it would be more dangerous to postpone such action. "

    d) That " that the need to topple Saddam is paramount. I [Netanyahu speaking on behalf of Israel] think the commitment of America and Britain to dismantle this terrorist dictatorship before it obtains atomic bombs, before it obtains nuclear weapons, deserves the unconditional support of all sane governments"
    --------
    3) Israel had NO RIGHT to get involved in US internal politics and discourse re whether to go to war. Israel certainly had no right to try to bank shot the outcome of that discourse by injecting false info and by condoning the arm-twisting being done by the US Israel Lobby.

    4) When they spoke of Saddams WMDS, Sharon, Sharon's spokesman, Shimon Peres, and Netanyahu spoke as Israeli officials with full access to Israeli Intelligence. So where is the Israeli intelligence justifying their claims. Where are the WMDS?

    Why isn't the obvious recognized here my dear sleepwalkers?The framing of the issue muddles the issue.Israel is NOT "receiving" aid from the U.S.What is happening is that Jews are FUNDING THE TRIBE!FUNDING THEMSELVES!The center of Jewish power is the "United States."All the so-called rational analysis manifested in this article misses what has taken place.See the networking!The media,ADL,AIPAC,Southern Pov. Law Center,Pentagon,Congress,the Fed.Do you know who disproportionately contols these?Do you?Why is Israel "receiving" all this aid?Please!

    Re Zarathustra's comment "What is happening is that Jews are FUNDING THE TRIBE!FUNDING THEMSELVES"
    -----------
    Oh, horseshit. I think there is a malign network of a limited number of people-- but it doesn't include even a significant fraction of American Jews. Or even many American Jewish billionaires.

    But it does includes a number of nonJews. Rupert Murdoch is even more of a threat to this country than Haim Saban, in my opinion. In fact, Rupert Murdock gave Saban his billions -- for a group of faceless morons dressed in garish tights and with no acting ability.


    Moreover, One of the men who has done most to fight George Bush's imperialism is George Soros. Last time I checked , Soros wasn't a Presbyterian.

    Plus William Kristol would be nothing if Rupert Murdoch didn't use his great wealth to subsidize that financial arterial gusher known as the Weekly Standard.

    See ,e.g, http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_11_21/article.html

    As far as what motivates Rupert Murdoch -- well, money, obviously.

    But also Australia.

    As shown by the recent hilarious one-and -a -half-turn - back-flip-with-a-half-gainer Rupert forced Fox News anchors to take re global warming -- after Australia's urban water supplies almost dried up during a disastrous multi-year drought.

    Rupert seems to promote heavy US Defense Spending and a global empire because such are critical to Australia's survival. Australia only has 20 million people, can probably support no more than 10 mil in the long run, and has almost 3 BILLION Asians to the north -- just a hop, skip and a jump over a short island chain. If not for the US Navy, Australia would have been speaking Japanese in WWII and would be speaking Chinese today.

    "If you look at the events of the time, Bush sent Colin Powell to Israel to try to jump start the peace process after Israel started kicking the crap out of the Palestinians in response to a series of suicide bombings. Bush demanded Sharon withdraw Israeli forces and Sharon basically told Bush to go screw himself -- and then sent Netanyahu to the US to lobby on behalf of Israel."

    We were talking about Iraq. Focus, please. I didn't make the argument that Israel always follows US advice or policy on literally everything.

    "Israel had NO RIGHT to get involved in US internal politics and discourse re whether to go to war."

    Why not? Every country in the world tries to lobby every other country in the world about all kinds of stuff, including wars. Every K Street lobbyist has a client list full of foreign governments. The US does the exact same thing to all sorts of countries all the time. In fact, the US does this much more frequently than most other nations (it does this to other allies and it does it to Israel). Kuwait did this, Taiwan does this, the UK did it in WWII, and on and on. And the US government clearly didn't even need Israel's effort. That effort was a minimal factor at best.

    "When they spoke of Saddams WMDS, Sharon, Sharon's spokesman, Shimon Peres, and Netanyahu spoke as Israeli officials with full access to Israeli Intelligence."

    They probably lied (which the UK and many other nations did as well). But they lied because they were going along with official US government policy. If the US government wants to do something that's not even in a neighboring country to Israel, should the Israelis necessarily try to oppose it? Wouldn't THAT equally be interference with the American internal debate over going to war?

    Again, what this shows is that, in Iraq policy, the Israelis followed the US' lead, not Israel having influence over the US. If the US government claimed that WMD exist, the Israelis decided to back them up in that false claim. That lie originated with the Americans and British, not the Israelis. No false claim by the Bush administration, no false claim by the Israeli government. If the Israelis had actually done what they wanted, they would have presented evidence about Iran's nuclear plans and said little or nothing about Iraq.

    "Antisemitic fascist cocksucker Mr. Hack continues his insane rantings. The suspicions of Mr. Hack being a Mossad agent attempting to discredit the anti-Zionist cause certainly gains respectability every time he posts his screeds on this blog."

    Bwahahahahahahaha!!!

    First I'm a Nazi, now I'm a Mossad agent!

    Oh, wait, maybe it's true - maybe I'm...BOTH!

    Gee, that would make the Mossad Nazis! I'd agree with that!

    Bwahahahahahahaha!!! Oh, man, this is getting good!

    Hey, SLC, Don Rickles isn't around much anymore, maybe you can take up his "insult comedy" career!

    "If the US government wants to do something that's not even in a neighboring country to Israel, should the Israelis necessarily try to oppose it? Wouldn't THAT equally be interference with the American internal debate over going to war?"

    This statement is merely absurd.

    First, it tries to establish that Iraq was of NO interest at all to Israel - which is patent nonsense.

    Israel has been lobbying hard for the Kurds to allow them to build a pipeline from Kirkuk to Haifa. Numerous Israeli personnel are operating in the Kurdish region of Iraq, both for commercial and intelligence purposes, as has been reported by numerous media sources. This does not indicate that Israel has "no interest" in Iraq.

    Second, it suggests that having Israeli generals wandering into the Pentagon and passing who-knows-what phony intelligence about Iraq's so-called "WMDs" is somehow trying to "avoid interference" with US policy. This is incomprehensible nonsense.

    Third, it ignores the fact that IF such a situation were true, the best Israeli policy would be to SHUT UP.

    It should be perfectly obvious from Williams' posts that Israel made a major effort to support the war against Iraq, even while preferring that the US attack Iran (which it still does.)

    As Walt and Mearsheimer point out, Israel only went along with the Iraq war plan because they thought it would lead inevitably to attacks on Syria and Iran - which it will in the near future.

    Israel today continues to lobby hard - and the US Israel Lobby does so to a degree beyond even what was involved with Iraq - to attack Iran, despite the absolute ZERO evidence that Iran has or even wants a nuclear weapons program.

    Israel DOES NOT follow US policy. It follows ITS OWN policies at all times. Whether it influences US policy and to what degree IT IS SUCCESSFUL in influencing US policy and to what degree it is ABLE to influence US policy OVER AND ABOVE OTHER influences - internal or external - on US policy may be arguable.

    To suggest that Israel is the US's "poodle", the way Tony Blair was, is just laughable. The argument is a joke. It's ridiculous to even consider it.

    NOBODY - except Sharon in his famous comment - is saying that Israel CONTROLS US foreign policy. There are OBVIOUSLY other actors - the neocons, the oil companies, the military-industrial complex, the financial side, and others. That is a red herring.

    The bottom line is that Israel INFLUENCES US foreign policy via its actions, its official connections with the US government, and its unofficial connections via the Israel Lobby. There can be no doubt.

    And this influence has been pernicious when enabled by the scumbags like Cheney and the neocons we have in the US government. Remove the scumbags and Israeli influence would not be an issue, that much I agree.

    But it existed in the run up to the Iraq war and it exists today in the run up to the Iran war.

    As such, it must be exposed and identified as the foreign influence for a foreign country's benefit that it is.

    "First, it tries to establish that Iraq was of NO interest at all to Israel - which is patent nonsense."

    I didn't say that Iraq was of no interest to Israel. But it wasn't and isn't really of front-burner major interest, either in 2001 or now. Their major interest has been the Occupied Territories, Lebanon, Syria and Iran. Iraq wasn't a major policy objective of Israel.

    "As Walt and Mearsheimer point out, Israel only went along with the Iraq war plan because they thought it would lead inevitably to attacks on Syria and Iran - which it will in the near future."

    Except that we're already nearly 5.5 years later, and there have been no American attacks on Syria or Iran (and Iran has been strengthened by the US' bungling of Iraq, not diminished). Again, the US government really didn't deliver on one of Israel's main policy objectives (attack Iran in near term), instead preferring it's own US-driven policies.

    Re burritoboy's comment "US government really didn't deliver on one of Israel's main policy objectives "
    ----------
    Let see. The supporters of Israel in the US moved to exploit Sept 11 before the bodies were cold. They wanted the US government to spend massives numbers of US lives and treasure to deal with Israel enemy number one (Iraq) and number two (Iran).

    The Government of Israel, on the other hand, preferred that the US government spend massive numbers of US lives and Treasure dealing with Israel enemy number two (Iran) and then Israel enemy number one (Iraq).

    The Neocons pointed out that it would be easier to snooker the AMerican people into invading Iraq because (a)their propaganda had already established Saddam as a very bad person and (b) Iraq was a far more laughable enemy than Iran.

    Once the US ARmy was there, the Iraqi people would greet the Neocons as liberators, cheering crowds would be throwing flowers, and the US Army could then wheel to the right and attack Iran from a secure base on Iran's borders.

    Big Oil pointed out that there was more oil in Iraq than in Iran because the Iranian oil had already been looted in the good of days of the Shah.

    The Government of Israel said "Whatever" and got with the program.

    I'm afraid I hardly see all this as the American dog wagging the Israeli tail.

    But maybe I'm wrong. How many Israeli lives have been spent in Iraq.

    What is the only country in the Middle East that we KNOW has evaded international nonproliferation controls in order to acquire nuclear weapons?


    Comments closed September 18, 2007.

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