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Judgment!

10 Oct 2007 10:57 am

Perhaps Barack Obama's efforts to goad others into spelling out what his campaign is trying to say are paying off. Here's Harold Meyerson:

Many of Hillary Clinton's foreign and military policy advisers, such as Kenneth Pollack of the Brookings Institution, supported the war at first, then criticized its conduct, then supported the surge. On the war, at least, they could as easily be providing advice to John McCain. The same cannot be said of the majority of foreign and military policy mavens aligned with her two chief rivals.

Recently, Clinton herself resurrected old doubts about her foreign policy judgment that she had managed to tamp down over the past half-year by favoring a timeline for the withdrawal of most U.S. forces. In voting for the Lieberman-Kyl legislation that deemed Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps a terrorist organization, she opened the door for Bush and Vice President Cheney to charge into Iran, or its airspace, with what they would claim to be congressional permission.

And here's Maureen Dowd:

When Hillary voted to let W. use force in Iraq, she didn’t even read the intelligence estimate. She wasn’t trying to do the right thing. She was trying to do the opportunistic thing. She felt she could not run for president, as a woman, if she played the peacenik.

By throwing in with Joe Lieberman and the conservative hawks on the Iranian Revolutionary Guard issue, she once more overcompensated in a cynical way. She’d like to paint Obama as the weak reed who wants to cozy up to dictators, while she’s the one who will play tough. It was odd, given her success in the debates conveying the sense that she is the manliest candidate among the Democrats, that she felt the need to man-up on Iran.

In some ways, it's the point Dowd raises here -- about political strategy -- that worries me the most. I don't think it's really going to be possible for Democrats to address the big problems facing American foreign policy unless they're willing to try to break out of the long post-9/11 defensive crouch they've been in for years. John Edwards, as has often been the case, led the way here with a bold move to repudiate the "war on terror" conceptual scheme. Barack Obama, having opposed the war from the beginning, wound up mostly attracting to his banner the substantive advisors who were less invested in the crouch and doesn't seem to have those instincts personally, and wound up essentially forced out of the crouch for his position that we should be willing to conduct diplomatic talks without preconditions.

Clinton's team isn't all bad nor is her record, but she seems the least inclined to make a bold, self-confident big-picture challenge to the conservative conception of how we ought to conduct ourselves in the world.

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Comments (31)

your general argument is quite valid, but citing maureen dowd as a source tends to undercut the entire thesis: if dowd believes it, it must not be true.

Re "she seems the least inclined to make a bold, self-confident big-picture challenge to the conservative conception of how we ought to conduct ourselves in the world. "
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Hey, what did you think Haim Saban was buying with that $1 Million+? Do you think Haim became a billionaire by making bad investments?

Matt:

Be patient, given the opportunity, HRC will figure out how to stand akimbo over both camps (dove and hawk). She is the Triangulator!

Re keith's comment "given the opportunity, HRC will figure out how to stand akimbo over both camps "
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That should be "lie akimbo".

If the Democrats were half-way serious about proving how "manly" they are, then they would not support Bush on Iraq, on Iran, on FISA, on MoveOn, etc..

Rather, they would repudiate this pro-gay, pro-feminist nonsense that pervades them. To the Democrats, torture is ok, condemnation of free speech is ok, illegal wars are ok - but don't touch a hair on the chinny chin chin of the gay and feminist agenda.

No wonder people think they are weird.

Esquire magazine had a brilliant essay during the Nixon/Watergate era which explained how the Repubs of that era kept digging themselves deeper and deeper into the sh*tpile they'd created. The writer contended that a large group of 'chamber-of-commerce' and 'Ivy-league' fellows (back then it was all guys) wanted to present a tough-guy image of themselves. So they allied themselves to people like E Howard Hunt who the essayist called 'the crazy-brave'. Gordon Liddy was one of these; he challenged some of the Repub elite once by holding his open palm above a candle flame to show how he'd resist questioning if he was ever caught. The Ivy-leaque types were essentially 'captured' by their hirelings.

This seems to me an extreme example but a useful prism through which to observe Hillary's tough posturing. It's why I intend to put a primary vote for Edwards.

America, fuck yeah.

Sometimes principles need to be tossed aside to actually get in a position of power.

http://political-buzz.com/

I'm not as worried that Hillary is an opportunist as I am worried that she actually believes in the votes she's cast.

That's why I'd still like to hear her say whether she believes Bush was wrong to go into Iraq. Or whether she thinks he's just incompetent.

It is precisely why I don't trust Hillary -- her calculations are not perceptions and judgment.
Actually, I liked Maureen's column for the first time in 2-3 months -- I can just see Condi going after Cheney with a Butterfly net!
No, Hillary should not be the Democratic candidate for President and more moves like her vote and paranoid response to a questioner -- she looks too much like Bush -- don't talk to them unless they ask the right questions -- that is what we'll get more of the same 'ole, same 'ole!!
Sure would like to see Obama in the WH, but then again guess I am not in the right place when the polling takes place -- and how stacked is that??

Don Williams, what makes you such a gutter hate possessed anti-Semite? You deal in gutter anti-Semetic rottenness beyond any self-control. Could you be more disgusting?

Sometimes principles need to be tossed aside to actually get in a position of power.

It's a sad statement on American politics today that I'm no longer sure if you're serious or just being snarky.

As much as I know there needs to be a Democratic president to have any chance of getting out of Iraq, I may not be able to vote for Clinton. I may not be able to vote for her unless she tells us she wants to get out of Iraq.

Dowd:

It was odd, given her success in the debates conveying the sense that she is the manliest candidate among the Democrats, that she felt the need to man-up on Iran.

No it's not. She will hawk-up more than your average democrat, because she's already thinking of the general election and does not want to expose a "she's weak on national security, as you knew she would be" flank to the Republican nominee/RNC/Rush Limbaugh, etc...

Here's hoping it's nothing more than positioning and all talk.

Thinker:

Yes, indeed!

Near as I can tell, the entire Democratic Party Establishment today believes that the Bill of Rights consists of just one sentence: "The Right to Gay Marriage Shall Not Be Denied".

SoCalJustice:

Here's hoping it's nothing more than positioning and all talk.
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That and a $1.85 will get you a coffee.

Excellent post Matt. You helped me focus on what it is about Hillary that makes me uncomfortable.

And also pointed to the very first Dowd comments that I think are valid. Of course, as grandpa liked to say, even a blind squirrel [Dowd, not you] will find an acorn every once in a while.

Keith:

That and a $1.85 will get you a coffee.

Maybe.

I thought one of the frequent complaints about Hillary is the perception that she'll do or say anything - even more than your average politician - to get elected.

Maybe, more than most others, she'll make promises and assertions, that she has no intention of delivering

She's acting like a front runner (she's polling as one and being treated by the media as inevitable, so why not?) and already running against the Republicans, while Obama and Edwards try to run against her.

All I'm saying is that her positions and votes are unsurprising and I don't put a lot of stock in them because we're in an election campaign.

I hope Obama (or Edwards) picks up steam and provides a credible challenge to her in the next few months.

but citing maureen dowd as a source tends to undercut the entire thesis: if dowd believes it, it must not be true

Heh. Yup.

Jennifer, why do you always toss around juvenile insults on this board directed at commenters whom you don't like? Seriously, it's lame.

Anyway, I don't think it's anti-semitic to point out that this rich Israeli guy is quite influential with Hillary and Brookings.

'Near as I can tell, the entire Democratic Party Establishment today believes that the Bill of Rights consists of just one sentence: "The Right to Gay Marriage Shall Not Be Denied".'

Oh yeah, that's the big wedge issue they hope to use to get that majority. Those cynical party establishment types just love it.

Have any candidates actually come out explicitly in favor of it? Did Kerry support it in 2004? Was it in the party platform in 2004? No, no and no.

The Democratic establishment wishes the issue would go away. I'm sure they wish it would go away nicely, with gay people getting rights that satisfy them, but going away is the important part to them.

While it's not central to MY's point, I see Dowd didn't miss the chance to bring up the 'Hillary didn't read the intelligence estimate' canard. We never seem to hear about how Bush himself didn't read the damn thing either -- his staff gave him a one-page summary. Not that any of this matters, of course, because the NIE was chock full of aluminum tubes and unmanned drones and all the other bogus crap the Administration was pushing.

Re Mike T's comment "Not that any of this matters, of course, because the NIE was chock full of aluminum tubes and unmanned drones and all the other bogus crap the Administration was pushing."
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It matters because Senator Bob Graham , on the Senate Intelligence Committee, was telling the Hillary and John Edwards "the intelligence" was bullshit -- and they were not interested.

They didn't want challenge Bush/Cheney's bullshit -- because they didn't want to risk their political careers by challenging major Democratic donors like Haim Saban and S Daniel Abraham.

So Hillary and John Edwards VOTED to send 3700+ soldiers to their deaths --and thousands more to a lifetime in VA hospitals, horribly maimed beyond repair.

Why is there no penalty for political malpractice and corruption -- especially when it kills people? If a drug dealer sold bad heroin and it killed 4 or 5 people, we would put him in the electric chair. But our politicians can commit the most blatant self-serving crimes and they remain front runners.

One of the few Dems who voted for the first Iraq war was... wait for it.... Al Gore. He was subsequently part of the team who got placed in the White House.

I wouldn't be the first to suggest that Hillary had this in mind when she voted for the second war.

Hillary in '08 kind of reminds me of Bush in '00. She is the anointed candidate of the party that is the default vote-getter, much like Bush. The lineage is there as well as the perception of competence. If things get bad, Bill, ala Bush Sr. will bail her out.

At this point it seems like all she has to do is tread water and not take any real chances or make any serious mistakes.

Next up, Jeb in '12.

Quoting Dowd on a Democratic Candidate (especially Hillary) is like quoting Lee Atwater on a Democratic Candidate.

"I don't think it's really going to be possible for Democrats to address the big problems facing American foreign policy unless they're willing to try to break out of the long post-9/11 defensive crouch they've been in for years."

"defensive crouch", my ass! Everybody I knew, conservative or liberal, said we had to invade Afghanistan. I opposed the invasion of Iraq because I thought it wouldn't work: it would fail to produce a stable, peaceful government and it would draw resources away from Afghanistan, a real terrorist haven to a supposed haven. Iraq is a failure. The sooner we acknowledge this, the sooner we can approach Iraq policy realistically. But saying all this is considered unpatriotic, which is a way to avoid addressing the problem substantively. As Krugman put it: "You just can't be taken seriously in Washington on national security unless you were wrong on Iraq".

"I don't think it's really going to be possible for Democrats to address the big problems facing American foreign policy unless they're willing to try to break out of the long post-9/11 defensive crouch they've been in for years."

What Matt STILL doesn't get and probably will NEVER get given his liberal underpinnings is that the Democrats ARE ON BOARD with this stuff. They simply aren't very competent on coming up with positions they can take which DIFFERENTIATE themselves from the Republicans. So they try to argue with the Republicans about "national security", but it has to be a lame argument because they can't argue about what they AGREE WITH.

And you can't win against Republicans in an election by AGREEING with them. This is what killed Kerry - nobody could see any difference between him and Bush. So why not vote for Bush?

The problem for the Dems is that they can't AFFORD to disagree with the Republicans on national security because they get the same campaign contributions from the same war profiteers. And they won't get any if they denounce the military-industrial complex - which they also can't do because they BELIEVE in the military-industrial complex and its foreign policy objectives of continuous war themselves.

So any statement they make on national security or foreign policy ends up being some weak criticism of how it's being CONDUCTED and nothing about its ESSENCE.

Which makes them seem "weak".

Which leaves the Dems, mostly for historical reasons, with issues like gay rights, the labor movement, the economy, and the like - which aren't nearly as interesting to the voting public as WAR. Even when you see polls that say the voting public are more concerned about the economy than Iraq or terrorism, or whatever other issue is asked about, who gets the votes? The tough guys who are promising an aggressive foreign policy.

Which are almost always the Republicans - except for Clinton who was happy to "out-conservative the conservatives" for his term. And Hillary will follow that model.

Because what the US population really hates is - everybody who isn't in the US population.

This is so obvious it shouldn't have to be said.

It's also completely ridiculous. Both the Repugs and the Dems are in the same party - the War Party - but they have to keep trying to show some differentiation so they can keep up the sham that there IS some differentiation.

It's nuts.

And what's REALLY nuts is that the US citizenry - and clueless pundits like Matt - buy into this performance. Of course, SOME pundits - maybe Matt, maybe not - KNOW it's a sham. Their job is to CONTRIBUTE to the sham.

Bottom line: Clinton and Obama will not stop the war in Iraq. They will not stop a war in Iran when Bush starts one - even if they win the election, which they might not if they can't oppose Iran and thus end up looking exactly like the Republicans in 2008 - just like Kerry looked like Bush on Iraq in 2004.

THIS is what Bush is counting on with regard to Iran - that it WILL save the GOP's political futures as well as his own, AND also achieve the neocon and war profiteer and oil company goals.

And he's right - it probably will.

What it won't do is help the US taxpayer or the US economy or the US military - or anybody in the ME.

I honestly don't think Hillary even knows what she believes or thinks on any issue. It is all so controlled by consultants and polls she probably has not had an original thought or taken a real stand on anything in at least a decade. Look at her closest advisor, Mark Penn. A pollster and corrupt to the core, he controls the message and the thinking for her.
I think this is the biggest reason for the dancing around and ducking answering any questions. She just doesn't know what she thinks without checking with her multitude of advisors first.
her husband, and forgive me, but, even W to some degree, have had some gut level instinct on something even if it was that they were hungry or sleepy.
Hillary has been so programed and advised I believe she goes through life with her mind on off and her instincts on numb.

Good to see others voicing their fears about HRC. Can we please bring fresh blood, ideas to DC as the old is not working in any fashion.

Are we really going to elect a president on what the cable/mainstream media dictates as inevitable?

I will not vote for HRC. As a lifelong democrat it will hurt, but I will not.

Maureen Dowd should stick to writing about what the candidates are wearing. That's pretty much all she knows.


Comments closed October 24, 2007.

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