I was wandering around the National Mall earlier today, which is a somewhat unusual experience for your typical actual resident of DC, and it's really just an incredibly ill-used public space in the middle of a big city. It reminded me of my colleague Josh Green's old-but-still-totally-true Washington Monthly article calling for National Mall reform.
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"Monumental Failure"
12 Oct 2007 12:03 pm
Comments (64)
I eagerly await the Barack H. Obama National Skate Park.
One day a couple of Januaries ago, my wife and I were walking through the mall when a red fox came running up from some bushes and chased a bunch of geese away. I'd never seen a live fox outside of a zoo before so it was kind of strange to see my first one in a big urban setting. I later asked one of the park police if a fox chasing geese was common in DC, and he looked at me oddly. No, there aren't any foxes around here.
So many straight lines embedded in his response.
Hey, we saw a red fox. too, in a field across from the FDR Memorial last December. Everybody was gawking at it.
I've always thought that the Mall was what DC has instead of an actual downtown.
Biggest reason the mall sucks? No food
The Mall is a great outdoor space to have a big fat party. But its true that most of the time there is fencing in your way to prevent people from enjoying it. Also, they need to stop replacing open space with monuments to wars and oppressed ethnic groups.
>>which is a somewhat unusual experience for your typical actual resident of DC
I'm guessing because they don't want to get attacked by roving gangs of teenagers in broad daylight.
I've never found anything wrong with the Mall, aside from the fencing-off of the places under construction. If you want food or drink, it's there. The Smithsonian is there. There are a lot of people playing ultimate frisbee.
Would it be better if they sold beer and there were suddenly hundreds of drunks in a park that is aimed at families and schoolkids? I don't think so.
The article you link to discusses how it's miserable in August. Well, duh, it's August! DC is really freakin' hot and humid in August. If you commercialized the hot-and-humid Mall, you could get a different place that was also hot and humid and that people would be miserable walking around.
Now if you want to talk about blights in DC, let's talk about the permanent closure of Pennsylvania Avenue near the White House, and the message that that sends to the schoolchildren of America. We're the most powerful country in the history of the world, and we're scared!
jim:
roving gangs of teenagers in broad daylight at the Mall? Uh, right.
We're no longer talking about a city that I recognize...
Matt's point was not that people don't walk around the Mall because they are scared, but that residents don't walk around the Mall because it's for tourists.
Whispers: Agree and disagree. Certainly there's no fear issue. The main threat in the Mall area are roving gangs of tourists that take up the whole sidewalk and meander.
That said, the food is not impressive. There's some vendors, and thank God for the drink vendors because I often really need a water. But I've often been at the Mall, considered where to eat, and not really come up with good options. The museum restaurants are overpriced and I often want a bit better fare than the vendors are selling. I do know a fair number of restaurants in the area, but they tend to be at least a few blocks away.
That said, I do still eat underground at the National Gallery cafe on occasion. The waterfall is just too fun. Can't say I care either way on the beer issue though.
The Mall was never intended to be an urban park for bbq's and softball. It was designed to be a solemn memorial space for the entire nation for quiet reflection.
What we do to the Mall today is as abominable as holding a rave in a church.
Rock Creek Park is for softball and bbq. Get off my lawn.
Outside of New York City, I've noticed that many places in the US give little thought to thinking about infrastructure in terms of, "how does this make us look to the outside world?", with the exception of building convention centers. The National Mall isn't that well taken care of, which is sort of embarassing, and once you're there, you're pretty isolated because there are no nearby amenities other than surrounding museums.
Rock Creek Park is for softball and bbq. Get off my lawn.
It's great to have a huge nature reserve in the middle of the city, but it's hardly an urban park in the model of the Boston Common or Central Park. With the exception of the area right by the Woodley Park metro, you can't just "walk in" to Rock Creek Park. Typically you have to drive on over to one of their isolated BBQ/recreation areas.
For me, the scale of the Mall is perfect. But as my username suggests, I'm a cyclist.
If you want to bounce around from the Lincoln/Vietnam/Korean War memorials to the FDR Memorial to the Jefferson Memorial to Hains Point to the Washington Phall...er, Monument to the various Smithsonian museums on a Saturday, a bicycle is perfect for the job. It doesn't take you long to get from anywhere to anywhere else, the getting there is fun, and parking's not a problem.
But Rob's right: the Mall needs food. It needs to place some outdoor-cafe-style restaurant locations at strategic locations around the Mall, and it needs a way of leasing those locations that allows it to replace disappointing restaurants fairly quickly, and make sure that there's as wide a range of selections as possible.
And the various commenters that objected to the fencing are spot on.
Pennsylvania Avenue in front of the White House isn't closed to the public. I walk along it all the time, and see large amounts of people (including protesters, tourists and schoolchildren) doing all kinds of things there. The avenue IS closed to vehicular traffic, but that's not the same thing at all.
In London there is a restaurant right off the Mall in St James's Park, called Inn The Park. It's run by one of London's top restaurateurs and has both a rather expensive sit-down restaurant and a self-service cafe that is considerably cheaper. It's great! It brings in non-tourists as well. We need something similar in Washington, not just the standard overpriced (and mediocre) museum cafes.
I've never understood the idea that the closing of Pennsylvania to car traffic was somehow a problem. Oh no, you can't drive by the White House any more! You have to get out of your car and walk past it, instead!
Um, you know those buildings that surround The Mall? They are called museums. And they are nice. And you can learn stuff.
That is all.
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And in a bathroom stall off the National Mall
How we kissed so sweetly
How could I refuse a favor or two?
For a tryst in the greenery
I gave you documents and microfilm, too.
I go down there once in a while for a National Gallery exhibit, and the tourists (which I suppose I technically count as, since I'm from Baltimore) are a real pain.
After the museuming, we usually walk up to Jaleo, which is very good tapas and an easy stroll.
>>roving gangs of teenagers in broad daylight at the Mall? Uh, right.
>>We're no longer talking about a city that I recognize...
You must not live there then.
Just one story...
More attacks on National Mall as city declares crime emergency
"This is the third summer in four years that Ramsey has declared a crime emergency and the fourth time overall since he became chief in 1998. In 2004, Ramsey worked to halt a spate of car thefts by juveniles, and in 2003 another wave of killings had the city on edge.
Just hours after the declaration, two groups of tourists were robbed at gunpoint on the National Mall, both by men dressed all in black. The U.S. Park Police, which patrols the Mall and is separate from the D.C. police, posted more officers in the area in response....
Though no one was injured, Fear said there were similarities to three violent attacks on the National Mall in May, including a sexual assault. No arrests have been made in those cases."
Crime has been rampant on the Mall for YEARS.
Jim,
Your comments on crime in the Mall are way overblown. I work off the Mall, pass through it twice a day on weekdays and bring my kids to museums probably 2-3 times a month. I am sure that there are occasional muggings and what-not (especially in the winter when there are a lot of people wandering around after dark) but to call it unsafe is just silly.
As a non-DC resident, I can only say that I've never felt threatened or vulnerable when visiting the Mall. As for alternative uses, I'm having a hard time envisioning what this "vibrant" Mall would look like. Then again, I haven't read the linked article yet cuz it's hella-long. I'll check it out and get back to you.
The Mall is great for running/jogging, too. A lap around is just about 5 miles, with lots of nice stuff to see along the way. And all the open space makes tourists less of a problem than most other places in the city (most notably in front of every single frickin Metro turnstile and farecard machine in the entire system).
As for crime, didn't all that stuff happen at night? For folks that haven't been there and are considering listening to "jim," I can't communicate to you how stupid it is to suggest that someone should be afraid to walk around the Mall in broad daylight.
This seems a bizarre complaint to me. As a life-long resident, I've always loved the Mall. It's a beautiful place at night, too. There are restaurants in the museums and within a few blocks of much of the length of the Mall. Some people complain about everything.
Great article, thanks for passing along, could not agree more.
All we are saying is give cafes a chance.
And Jim, by your own standard, you must find most of D.C. a no-go zone.
You know, if they laid down blacktop, I think the Mall would make a pretty good parking lot. It would really ease the parking difficulty down there.
"but that residents don't walk around the Mall because it's for tourists."
If people choose not to take advantage of public space (technically everyone's space) then that's there own damned fault. Last time I was in D.C. a few years ago, I thought the Mall looked lovely.
"Crime has been rampant on the Mall for YEARS."
Though I'm not a resident, I thought Central Park (or parts of) suffered this problem also, but I didn't think that stopped people from enjoying their time there. Seems to me that the same thing can be said for Lakeshore in Chicago. If I lived in constant fear of being attacked, I'd probably never leave my mom's basement either (before a hateful response is issued, I'm just teasing).
"The giant white penis in the middle of it is very inspiring to the rest of us."
At first I thought you were talking about some new Christo and Jeanne-Claude project... Yes, yes, large penises are nice....
"It was designed to be a solemn memorial space for the entire nation for quiet reflection."
Nah, I don't agree. I really don't think that the civil rights demonstrations, public celebrations, and the occassional concert would have bothered the designers that much (and if they did, who cares, they are dead and it's supposed to be everyone's space). Hell, they used to let livestock (and maybe even a few of them scummy tourists, too) wander in and out of public buildings like the WH.
Roxanne, for those times when you want a more personal experience on the Mall, you can always go sit on papa Abe's lap and... talk about the first thing that pops up.
(Just a joke - I'm a fan of Roxanne's.)
Matt, your condescension is off-putting. I've been an "actual resident" for longer than you've been alive, and I am on the Mall a half a dozen times a year at least - visiting museums with family and friends, or showing guests the monuments.
There's life outside of coffee shops and bars, Matt. Spend some time in the city you've chosen to live in. There is a Hopper exhibit at the National Gallery of Art now, also a Turner exhibit. Go see them. Go over to the Hirshhorn sculpture garden and maybe to the Museum of African Art. If you've got little nephews or nieces try the carousel> This winter you can skate at the rink in the National Gallery garden, and next summer you can visit the Folk Festival. If you're hungry try the restaurant in the Museum of the American Indian. Even though there's no Starbucks, and even though it's full of tourists (horrors! people who actually choose not to go to Orlando for their vacations!) the Mall is a wonderful place.
Re "The Mall was never intended to be an urban park for bbq's and softball. It was designed to be a solemn memorial space for the entire nation for quiet reflection."
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Oh, bullshit. During the Jimmy Carter administration, we used it on the fourth of July for huge rock concerts with widespread , public pot-smoking and beer drinking.
You youngsters have no fucking initative.
I grew up in DC and I've always loved the Mall and the museums especially, in which I spent a total of probably months on end...my brother and I would go to the National Gallery to view the Italian renaissance art whenever the tear gas become too thick during antiwar demonstrations in the late sixties.
And I recall the baseball fields on the other side of the Lincoln Memorial. I believe you can see them in the movie, "The Day the Earth Stood Still." The spaceship landed in the middle of them; it scared the crap of this five-year old seeing the movie, as those fields were just down the road.
I used to study on the back of the Lincoln Memorial back in the late 80's early 90's. They started renovations on the memorial some years later but when finished decided that there just wasn't enough money in the parks budget anymore to leave the backside open to the public. Last I went, the park ranger told me that NOW the excuse for not opening the back is 9/11. There could be a really sneaky bomber who wants to blow up the view over the Potomac where the sun sets. It was a magical place of serenity for those contemplating history or anything else beyond the view of Arlington Cemetery.
Perhaps it has opened up since I was last there, two years ago. I doubt it. But one thing I did notice after leaving in frustration (because I was corraled by fences and concrete on the way out of the area) was that the old USA TODAY building over the Potomac had been bought out. Instead of the the building being a symbol of the free press looming over Washington D.C. (as I used to romantically think of it back then as a GW undergrad), it had been taken over by Northrop-Grumman--a major defense contractor.
How symbolic and how discomforting to know that what's now looming over the "people's mall" and the "people's representatives" is a direct pipeline to our tax dollars for weapons that must be tested somehow. But how?
I also noted that those cool chopper fly-throughs on the Potomac aren't just for special occasions anymore. It's the travel method of choice for the really important people who are indeed in a hurry to get "business" done for the people of America.
How quickly this thing has spun out of control.
I used to love the mall. Someday, I will again.
Maybe.
I used to study on the back of the Lincoln Memorial back in the late 80's early 90's. They started renovations on the memorial some years later but when finished decided that there just wasn't enough money in the parks budget anymore to leave the backside open to the public. Last I went, the park ranger told me that NOW the excuse for not opening the back is 9/11. There could be a really sneaky bomber who wants to blow up the view over the Potomac where the sun sets. It was a magical place of serenity for those contemplating history or anything else beyond the view of Arlington Cemetery.
Perhaps it has opened up since I was last there, two years ago. I doubt it. But one thing I did notice after leaving in frustration (because I was corraled by fences and concrete on the way out of the area) was that the old USA TODAY building over the Potomac had been bought out. Instead of the the building being a symbol of the free press looming over Washington D.C. (as I used to romantically think of it back then as a GW undergrad), it had been taken over by Northrop-Grumman--a major defense contractor.
How symbolic and how discomforting to know that what's now looming over the "people's mall" and the "people's representatives" is a direct pipeline to our tax dollars for weapons that must be tested somehow. But how?
I also noted that those cool chopper fly-throughs on the Potomac aren't just for special occasions anymore. It's the travel method of choice for the really important people who are indeed in a hurry to get "business" done for the people of America.
How quickly this thing has spun out of control.
I used to love the mall. Someday, I will again.
Maybe.
sorry for the double
The disparate comments here prove the point Abraham Lincoln used to like to make: you can't please all the people all the time.
Dead after 6:00? Not used by residents? Something must have changed since I lived in the District. Some of the fondest memories of my 20's involve summer evening softball games, watching movies projected on a huge screen, wandering around with friends and a frisbee on a nice spring weekend. In my 30's I took my young daughter to the merry-go-round and the beautiful gardens by the castle on a regular basis. On rainy days what was better to do than partake of the FREE world-class museums? The Nat'l Gallery and American Indian museum both have very good cafeterias.
Yes, in the middle of a weekday in August it's going to be hot, miserable and filled with tourists. Yes, an outdoor cafe would be lovely. Yes, the WWII monument is a travesty.
But give me a freaking break.
This is a dumb post. The mall is a great open space for all kinds of outdoor activity. Jamming it up with restaurants is stupid. It does need some places to sit with a drink, but aside from that (and the NPS habit of fencing off chunks of it), it's fantastic.
The real problem with that area is how these gigantic Federal buildings, with their neo-facist architectural style, kill street life on the boulevards around the mall. It's like a giant wall of ugliness blocking the mall from downtown and Dupont circle.
As for crime on the mall, get real. Anyone who claims this is either not a resident of DC or just never uses the mall. You are much, much safer walking on the mall than walking in the great majority of DC neighborhoods.
Misplaced Patriot,
You've clearly never had to go from an appointment on one side of the white house to another on the far side. The traffic pattern in DC is insane enough without randomly closing off major avenues.
I get the threat of truck bombs and all that, but it's still a crappy solution, at least put in a tunnel like they have at some major traffic circles.
I forgot to mention the paddle boats in the Tidal Basin, also a great family activity.
the mall is the front lawn for all those FREE museums, the memorials, and the govt. buildings. the reason areas are fenced off is because of the incredible amount of foot traffic the grass takes. its amazing there is any grass alive there at all.
I was there once this summer. Looked like a big nasty dirt patch. I didn't walk around because I was scared a wind would blow up and I'd get filthy.
It reminded me of Central Park in the 80's--without the menace, of course. Just grimy, run-down, nasty and uninviting.
Seriously, it has amazing potential. Screw the feds, why doesn't someone start a National Mall Conservancy or something? Hell, just laying down some decent sod would be a spectacular improvement.
I made the mistake of clicking over and reading the beginning of Green's piece. Let me summarize for everyone else so they needn't bother: "I was stunned to find that Washington, DC is hot in August. Like, very hot. Ergo, the Mall sucks. Also, some Parks Service people were surly to me when I asked if I could get drunk there. This is truly a national disgrace. Can you believe you can't throw cigarette butts and food wrappers into the Korean War Memorial?! Also, I have projected my feelings onto the millions of people who visit the Mall every year, so they now dislike it as well."
As it happens, I had a somewhat parallel experience once, so let me rebut: "Once, I visited New York City on the hottest day of the year, in July, I think. I mean, it was so incredibly hot. Also, some people in the Village were rude to me. Where is the outcry for Central Park reform?!?"
The comments on crime on the Mall surprised me as well. I never had so much as a whisper of worry or heard anything about crime there, though I can't say I've often been there after, say, 10 pm (except maybe on July 4). My history: Lived in MD from 1984-2001, raised my kids there, frequent visitors to the Smithsonian and the Mall, usually via Metro.
So what do I make of these reports of rampant daylight crime sprees? Well, let's do a little fact-checking:
This 2006 WaPo article starts "The green expanse of the Mall evokes many emotions, but wariness has never been one of them. Over the years, the lack of crime has created an aura of safety that allows joggers and tourists, children and couples to drop their guard and stroll in the day and even at night..."
Hmmm... doesn't seem to fit with the vision of terrified residents being murdered in broad daylight since 1998. But perhaps since then?
"In the first, a couple walking along the Mall near the Museum of Natural History about 10:45 p.m.... The second attack, which happened about 11 p.m. three blocks from the first... Then early Sunday, shortly after midnight, a group matching the description of the assailants in the Thursday night robberies..."
Unless the latitude of DC has drastically changed since I was there, I don't think these were broad daylight.
I am, however, familiar with the concept of sheltered MD and VA residents being over-terrified of DC. We had a Girl Scout trip to a show at the Armory canceled when parents of Jim's ilk expressed concern that their girls would be walking into the crossfire of a war zone.
My advice to Jim: Get out more. Turn off the TV news. Stop reading the Metro section, or at least the crime reports.
I was there with the wife and kid last weekend for the Hopper exhibit. We came up out of the metro into a huge mess of fencing and noise - some solar-power deal was setting up. Kind of unpleasant.
The mall itself is a bit scrubby and dirty. Could use some regular upkeep, it seemed to me.
We felt very safe there, but thinking back, I don't remember seeing a single cop.
Food and entertainment on the mall: When we used to go there (our kids were young in the 90s) there used to be a carousel, right by Air and Space as I recall. Is that not there any more?
Also, there's a new skating rink that's gone up since I left the area. By the National Gallery, as I recall. And a very nice snack bar next to it.
I visited DC for the first time this June and loved it. Walking along the Mall really stirred feelings of patriotism in me, and I loved the fact that we had a national capital with a great public space surrounded by free, public museums. It could certainly be improved with a few more benches, I suppose, but if you don't like it, Matt, maybe your familiarity with the city has just bred contempt. Go live somewhere else for a while and then come back to visit.
A few days later, as I was visiting the Hampton Roads area, the weather got hot and humid and it became miserable to walk around outside. I sure it was pretty crappy up in DC at that point, too, but I can't imagine any amount of cafes or whatever it is Josh Green would rather see on the Mall would do anything for the weather. But if you ask me, the whole eastern half of the U.S. has hellhole-ish weather in the summer.
Washington monument "accidentally" built off axis? You can't be off that far by mistake. I though it was intentionally aligned with the Freemason temple on 16th St.?
We need open space like this in the Nation's capitol for when the spaceship comes to tell us we all suck and stop fighting...or else!
One reason the grass is in such poor shape is because of the number of people who actually do enjoy the Mall. During the summer, there are always tons of softball, kickball and Ultimate games taking place. They've all contributed to the horrible conditions of the grass, along with the fact that we haven't had rain in about 100 days. I have to agree with some of the earlier posts - the Mall is pretty cool. There's always something going on the weekends, and everything is free. If you do get hungry, here's a suggestion - walk a few block north and you'll see nothing but places to eat (especially near Gallery Place/Chinatown).
The Mall is abysmal when it comes to facilities that visitors need, such as toilets and decent restaurants.
Most horribly, the cafeteria at the National Air & Space Museum -- the most visited museum on Earth -- is run by McDonalds. The food there is terrible! And this is the culinary face we show to the rest of the world? Fried garbage? It's downright embarrassing.
I have mixed feelings about this. The mall isn't inviting like a Frederick Law Olmstead park, but I don't think that's what it was intended for. It's not really on a human scale, like an Olmstead park. But I have fond memories of time spent on the mall, when I lived there in the eighties and when I visited with my eleven year old son last year. My favorite spot, bar none: the Sculture Gallery.
Hmmm, mho, there's an awful lot of expensive work to be done, both monetarily and politically, if you want it to be a nice public space again. Besides all the restoration and clean up that the reflecting pool needs, you'd have to raze and replace the current Third-Reich-style WWII memorial, as well as the Korean War memorial, which looks like something out of the Night of The Living Dead and therefore frightens small children.
Wasn't part of the original plan to try and awe visitors? I don't that the Mall fits in with that but, I know a relatively unobstructed view from one end to the other is part of that.
A few years agot the got rid of all the Tshirt vendors in front of Air and Space which had become completely overwhelming.
As for the food - it is getting better. The National Gallery has good food and the food in the newes building National Museum of the American Indian is quite good. All the buildings are going through a renovations and part of that is food. Recently went to Natural History for the first time in a while and the food was much improved. I assme American History when it opens again will be better. I do wish there were a few more places to pick up something to drink (especially during the summer) outside - so you didn't have to go through the museums - and table to sit at.
I abhor all the fencing. I assume it is to regrow the grass, but in summers like this it just seems futile so why bother.
As for the Washington Monument being a little off, I don't know. I do know that all monuments and such are done on a very specific system and things are supposed to align perfectly. If you look at a map of the Mall (http://www.nps.gov/nama/planyourvisit/upload/NACCmap1.pdf) you can see that it doesn't line up with the White House exactly. I don't know that that is it however.
Something I think you guys are forgetting...we are in the middle of a drought. That's why the Mall looks dried up and unkempt.
My favorite spot, bar none: the Sculture Gallery
Which one? There are two.
The off-axis location of the Washington Monument is no accident - it's due to soil conditions. From the National Park Service website,http://www.nps.gov/archive/wamo/history/chap1.htm:
In 1848, sixty—four years after Congress had made the first proposal for a memorial to the first President, it granted a 37-acre site for it to the Washington National Monument Society... Soil tests, however, showed the intended spot due south of the White House and due West of the Capital to be too marshy. A site about 100 yards to the southeast was chosen, thus altering both the monument's north-south alignment with the White House and its east-west alignment with the Capitol...
Haha! Do you realize how stupid some of you folks are when you bitch about tourists on the Mall? Tourists, probably the majority of whom are Americans, are somehow unwelcome additions to the Mall?
Jesus, you guys are idiots.
One of my favorite events anywhere is the annual Smithsonian Folklife Festival, which is held on the National Mall every summer for a couple of weeks around the 4th of July. Nations, states and national themes (e.g., National Forest Service a couple of years ago) "present themselves" -- one summer not long ago Mali was the nation, and I was able to see Oumou Sangare perform, to what seemed to be a largely African immigrant audience -- it was so exciting to be hearing her with the Capitol Building behind me.
Next year, it's Bhutan, Texas and the 50th anniversary of NASA. The food is overpriced and mediocre, the weather is hot, and on the weekends it's crowded. I love it, see you there.
Yeah, what's Josh Green doing going to the Mall in August when it's hot and boring? He should try February, when it's cold and boring. Even the squirrels couldn't bother. I don't know what he has against hot dogs - this ain't Paris, and hot dogs are all-American. Of course it's a given that in America we can't drink in public without inviting mass drunkenness and anarchy. Why that is, I can't quite remember, but it must be accepted.
My favorite line was, "there's lots of history and statesmanship in the air, but it's more pedantic than enjoyable". And unfortunately I didn't find pedantic remotely equivalent to "educational". Also, the Mall with very young kids is extremely boring. Though if you like fairly large expanses of grass and nothing else except for Federal Park rules, here's your place.
What Windowdog said. Oh, and now it seems they've closed off Executive Ave East and West to FOOT TRAFFIC so you have to walk all the way out to 15th or 17th to get from the north side of the W.H. to the south side. ARGH. No more easy circuits of the W.H. and Ellipse as a lunchtime stroll.
Recently, I was walking on "Penna. Ave." between Lafayette Park and the fence. A security person, who was animatedly chatting with a staffer of some sort at the fence, briefly paused and told me that the sidewalk nearest the fence was closed and I'd have to cross the street. No motorcade coming, by the way. The President was in AUSTRALIA.
Sigh.
On the other hand, the Sculpture Gallery skating rink opens soon. That place ROCKS and it is open at night too, so it's a great place for an after-work activity followed by fantastic eats or a movie just up the street. Or, hot chocolate in its cool-ass snack bar. Always a favorite place for me to have birthday activities.
MY needs to get out of Murky Coffee or wherever he hangs out and enjoy the city!
Comments closed October 26, 2007.
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Heads in the Sand
For one thing, they always seem to be digging the entire thing up and fencing it off.
Posted by P O'Neill | October 12, 2007 12:09 PM