Chris Hayes and Josh Marshall both point to a CNN poll which seems to show that, contrary to what you often hear, African-Americans are friendlier to immigration than are whites. The positive implications for the long-run viability of the Democratic Party's coalition seem pretty obvious here so I won't spell it out.
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Race and Immigration
18 Oct 2007 10:53 am
Comments (26)
Might be interesting to see that broken out by geographic location.
When the immigration rallies were going on not too long ago, I saw a few black supporters among the anti-immigration protesters, but I saw a heck of a lot more among the pro-immigration demonstrators. That made me glad.
That was one bizarre poll, wasn't it? Asking whether illegal immigration should be increased?
Well, I mean, if you're going to ask if there should be less of something, you kind of need to ask if there should be more of it, just to have a fair poll.
As for why people would answer yes, I have no idea what they were thinking, but I could certainly construct a rational case for more illegal immigration, looking something like this:
1) Illegal immigrants fill an important niche in the economy, as far as cheap unskilled labor goes; legal immigrants in those positions would demand the full panoply of wage and hour protections.
2) Many illegal immigrants benefit the payroll and/or income tax system by putting in money and getting nothing in return.
3) Illegal immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than American citizens, and don't create as high a demand for services because they live in the shadows, so there's no real downside.
Mind you, I'm strictly doing this as an intellectual exercise, but in a country where large numbers of people believe Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11, surely there's room for all sorts of views.
A more plausible explanation of the thinking behind the more illegal immigrant responses is that responders think the political issue in play is stricter enforcement of immigration laws which would presumably decrease the number of illegal aliens (although in practice it may simply make more money for people willing to smuggle the illegals back into the country) and laxer enforcement which would do the opposite.
So these could represent support for laxer enforcement of immigration laws.
I'll bet if I took the time to look at the actual questions I'd discover a wide range of problems. It's a shame that MattY - a promoter of the poll - didn't bother to look at the actual questions, but what should anyone expect from him?
One problem leaps out: removing "all" illegal aliens is going to be impossible, and questions like that harken back to the stock FalseChoice that biased polls give between a MassiveAmnesty and MassDeportations.
Plus, I'd like to thank Steve for issuing the Democratic Party's viewpoint of this issue.
As for the "immigration rallies", first of all they were in support of illegal immigration, not the legal variety.
Second, here's some real reporting on who was behind them and who they're linked to. You might be surprised.
Might this have something to do with the lower average IQ of blacks? Maybe they don't understand that illegal aliens reduce job opportunities for unskilled blacks and lower the prevailing wages for those jobs? Maybe they don't realize that has those illegal aliens have anchor babies who are U.S. citizens, those kids compete with low income blacks for government social services? Maybe they don't see how they are being economically cleansed out of parts of New York and Los Angeles by illegal immigrants?
Americans being against immigration is like Marx promoting laissez faire capitalism?
"General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!'"
What I would want to know is, what's with ImmigrationOpponents and their OddlyCapitalized CompoundWords?
Hugo Pottisch,
Surely you know that the Berlin Wall wasn't built to prevent immigration but emigration. Since I'm sure you know that, why the dishonest analogy? Perhaps because an honest, objective analysis of the issue makes it crystal clear that massive immigration of unskilled, uneducated laborers today is bad for America.
Juan,
African-Americans would face the same level of competition if today's illegal immigrants had their status changed to legal overnight. The difference would be that the former illegals would be in a position to demand the minimum wage, labor law protections for workers, etc. So while the unskilled labor market would be a more level playing field, the amount of competition would remain the same.
Besides, African-Americans are savvy enough to realize that non-Black people opposed to immigrants (legal and illegal) tend to be the same people who bear the most antipathy towards Blacks (people like yourself as a matter of fact).
BTW, Juan, did you and/or your forebears arrive in this country highly skilled and college-educated?
Well duh. It's only white folks who say otherwise, in an attempt to provide cover for their own racism.
It says something about the degree of prejudice that still exists toward African-Americans in this country, when native-born African-Americans (who are presumably fluent in English) lose out routinely to illegal immigrants in landing unskilled jobs, even though most of these illegal immigrants barely speak and/or understand a word of English.
After all, when all other factors are equal (dilligence, work ethic, etc.), a English-speaking American citizen is a better fit for an American employer than someone whose English not too good. Isn't it worth paying minimum wage in order to get an employee that you can communicate with easily?
One wonders about the mindset of employers who routinely prefer illegals to native-born African-Americans. Are they kindred spirits to the likes of Steve Sailer and Juan?
"African-Americans would face the same level of competition if today's illegal immigrants had their status changed to legal overnight."
Which is why blacks would be against such a blanket amnesty as well as increased illegal immigration if they were smart enough to realize the consequences. In fact, they'd be against all unskilled immigration, legal or illegal.
"Besides, African-Americans are savvy enough to realize that non-Black people opposed to immigrants (legal and illegal) tend to be the same people who bear the most antipathy towards Blacks..."
Right, African-Americans are being "savvy" by supporting policies that harm their economic interest. We can stack this up with a whole list of other self-destructive behaviors and poor decisions made by African-Americans.
"(people like yourself as a matter of fact)"
If I had "antipathy" toward blacks, I would want to increase unskilled immigration, because it hurts blacks the most. What's your excuse?
"BTW, Juan, did you and/or your forebears arrive in this country highly skilled and college-educated?"
Yes. Not everyone with a Spanish name is uneducated or unskilled.
"After all, when all other factors are equal (dilligence, work ethic, etc.), a English-speaking American citizen is a better fit for an American employer than someone whose English not too good. Isn't it worth paying minimum wage in order to get an employee that you can communicate with easily?"
Eltoro,
You parade your ignorance here. First, where do you imagine illegals are being paid below the minimum wage? In most cases they are making more than the minimum (e.g., construction, restaurants, etc.), but less than the prevailing wages before they arrived.
Second, all things aren't equal: Mexican immigrants tend to be more diligent and have a stronger work ethic than African-Americans (of course, the American children of these Mexican immigrants tend to revert more toward African American norms of behavior).
This tends to be a reinforcing cycle: a young African American with a marginal work ethic who gets passed over for a job in favor of a docile, diligent illegal alien never gets a chance to improve his work ethic. If laws against hiring illegals were enforced, employers might be more willing to give the African American kid a shot, and it's possible he could develop a work ethic on the job.
Juan,
White folks will never like you. They'll hold you up as a useful idiot, like Juan Williams, but they'll never like you.
Juan
Surely you know that the Berlin Wall wasn't built to prevent immigration but emigration. Since I'm sure you know that, why the dishonest analogy? Perhaps because an honest, objective analysis of the issue makes it crystal clear that massive immigration of unskilled, uneducated laborers today is bad for America.
I am sure you know that America is a nation of immigrants? Since I'm sure you know that, why the dishonest analogy? Perhaps because an honest, objective analysis of the issue makes it crystal clear that massive immigration of unskilled, uneducated laborers has to large extend created America in the first place? In fact that is what America is!
PS: Why the dishonest example of only low-skilled workers? I believe that the H1b should not have a quota.
sherifffruitfly,
Thanks for your concern, but I am white. For someone who seems to think prejudice is wrong, you've already prejudged me inaccurately.
Hugo Pottisch,
So you don't deny that your Berlin Wall example was dishonest? No surprise there -- how could you support it?
As for this question of yours: "Why the dishonest example of only low-skilled workers?"
Why is it dishonest? I am against unskilled immigration to the U.S., but I am not against highly-skilled immigration here; in fact, I'd like to see more qualified engineers, scientists, physicians, etc. allowed in here. My only limitation would be on Muslim immigrants. I'd hate to discriminate against the peace-loving ones, but it's not worth the risk.
eltoro says: African-Americans would face the same level of competition if today's illegal immigrants had their status changed to legal overnight.
Very simplistic. What would also happen is a new wave of illegal aliens would be brought in to... wait for it... do the jobs newly-legalized former illegal aliens won't do.
As for the rest of his comments, look into Latin America's de facto caste system.
eltoro also says: One wonders about the mindset of employers who routinely prefer illegals to native-born African-Americans.
Ask those who promote illegal immigration, such as those who encouraged Mexicans to move to NewOrleans. That includes not just Bush, but his Dem collaborateurs.
“We remain a hunted people. Now you think you have a destiny to fulfill in the land that historically has been ours for forty thousand years. And we’re a new Mestizo nation.”
“Our devil has pale skin and blue eyes…”
“We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him.”
– Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, founder of La Raza
"Around the year 2040, whites will become a minority in the United States and, believe me, it will be 'payback time'."
- Pro-Immigration Activist, Jorge Sanchez
“And the one idea is, how we are going to exterminate white people because that in my estimation is the only conclusion I have come to. We have to exterminate white people off the face of the planet to solve this problem.”
- African Studies professor, Dr. Kamau Kambon
"Blond hair and blue eyes are a biological defect."
"The white race is a disease, and the only cure is a bullet. The rule of whites is history. Soon they will be our serfs. It's now the Age of the Brown Man."
- Hindu nationalist, Ramesh Sharma
“The goal of abolishing the white race is on its face so desirable that some may find it hard to believe that it could incur any opposition other than from committed white supremacists. Make no mistake about it we intend to keep bashing the dead white males, and the live ones, and the females too, until the social construct known as ‘the white race’ is destroyed–not ‘deconstructed’ but destroyed."
- Jewish studies professor, Dr Noel Ignatiev
.
"Right, African-Americans are being "savvy" by supporting policies that harm their economic interest. We can stack this up with a whole list of other self-destructive behaviors and poor decisions made by African-Americans."
Juan,
Are African-Americans really helping their economic interests by siding with anti-immigrant forces in this country? Racial discrimination against blacks is a far greater factor in impeding the economic advancement of African-Americans than competition with immigrants (legal or illegal). Remember, African-Americans tend to be discriminated against whether they are competing against illegals from Latin America for jobs like fruit picker, or whether they are competing against native-born whites for professional jobs. Are the nativist forces that are most concerned about ridding this country of large levels of immigrants really all that concerned about ensuring equal employment opportunities for Blacks?
"If I had "antipathy" toward blacks, I would want to increase unskilled immigration, because it hurts blacks the most."
No, widespread discrimination against African-Americans in the job market as a whole, for both skilled and unskilled jobs, is what hurts Blacks the most. Moreover, your opposition to immigration stems from concerns about the skills and education of the current waves of immigration, not whether it adversely impacts Blacks. Someone like yourself who repeatedly writes that Blacks are cognitively inferior to whites is the epitome of someone who has antipathy towards them.
(Now, I may be mistaken about the intent of comments like that. Maybe as an immigrant whose 1st language is not English, you don't realize that describing a person as "inferior" is not a compliment.)
"You parade your ignorance here. First, where do you imagine illegals are being paid below the minimum wage? In most cases they are making more than the minimum (e.g., construction, restaurants, etc.), but less than the prevailing wages before they arrived."
Juan,
Market conditions may at this time result in wages far above the minimum wage for illegals. However, if market conditions push wages downward, illegals won't have the ability to resist being paid below minimum wage. In order to gain legal recourse against an employer who is paying them less than minimum wage, illegals would have to bring the attention of law enforcement, but performing this action results in their deportation. So there are indeed situations where illegals are paid less than minimum wage.
Moreover, this doesn't negate my overall point. If all other things are equal, a native-born American citizen should be a more favorable option than an immigrant with little or no command of English. Competition with immigrants by itself does not lower prevailing wages. You also need an attitude that undervalues native-born Blacks so much that their relatively superior linguistic skills don't count in their favor when seeking unskilled jobs.
"Mexican immigrants tend to be more diligent and have a stronger work ethic than African-Americans (of course, the American children of these Mexican immigrants tend to revert more toward African American norms of behavior).
This tends to be a reinforcing cycle: a young African American with a marginal work ethic who gets passed over for a job in favor of a docile, diligent illegal alien never gets a chance to improve his work ethic. If laws against hiring illegals were enforced, employers might be more willing to give the African American kid a shot, and it's possible he could develop a work ethic on the job"
Juan,
You really are parading your ignorance here. It also proves how disingenuous you really are. You claim not to have antipathy towards Blacks, and yet you make statements like this.
It's one to thing to argue that many employers have this perception of Blacks, and that this perception is so deep-rooted in these employers that they would rather hire an illiterate immigrant from Latin America with absolutely no knowledge of English. However, as written, your statement that you uncritically accept and embrace this perception.
Unskilled Hispanic immigration hurts unskilled African-Americans in the job market, but it helps African-American elites who work in the Diversity Industry by increasing the weight of numbers for ethnic quotas and the like.
By the way, as a former marketing researcher, let me remind you that the results of surveys are extremely sensitive to how questions are phrased, and never more so than on the topic of immigration. You'll recall how the national media was so certain last spring, based on some biased polling questions, that the McCain-Kennedy-Bush amnesty bill was a big winner politically.
Steve Sailer is oddly like Uncle Ruckus on The Boondocks TV show.
Petey, I doubt Steve Sailer could beat a ten-year-old with ninchucks.
"Might this have something to do with the lower average IQ of blacks?"
Umm, wow. You're a very special man.
In Brooklyn a few years ago, a study was conducted in which fake resumes were created for a black man with no criminal record, an illegal immigrant and a white man who had served time in jail after a conviction and had since been released. The resumes were all comparable in terms of experience, education, etc. The researchers would then pretend to go looking for jobs doing dock work. The fake white criminal (a man who had thus been shown to be prone to anti-social behavior) and the fake illegal immigrant both got more offers than the black man. That should tell us something about how race is lived in America: hate African-Americans, exploit illegal Latinos and look the other way for white men.
Comments closed November 01, 2007.
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Heads in the Sand
That was one bizarre poll, wasn't it? Asking whether illegal immigration should be increased? I don't understand anybody rationally saying yes to that, frankly -- if you think there should be more immigrants, surely you don't think they should be illegal, right? Makes me question whether the results mean anything, although I suppose there's no reason to think the white/black comparison is skewed in a particular direction.
Posted by Glenn | October 18, 2007 11:03 AM