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Red Baiting

08 Oct 2007 06:07 pm

Over on the blog-I-didn't-know-he-had, Roger Cohen shows us all that he's actually the kind of liberal hawk who likes going in for a little McCarthyite red baiting now and again, analogizing my former colleague Mike Tomasky to a Stalin apologist. He doesn't cite any actual examples of Tomasky excusing or denying Saddam Hussein's depredations and, indeed, he has to concede that Mike did, in fact, acknowledge Saddam's crimes.

As Chris Hayes points out, Cohen's logic seems to be that anyone who didn't favor launching an unprovoked war with the USSR was, as such, an apologist for Stalinism.

And here we see the basic point that the I-was-wrong-but-I-was-right-anyway crowd on Iraq doesn't really think they were wrong at all. They regret nothing! Sure, spending over a trillion bucks on an operation that's led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis while leading hundreds of thousands -- if not millions -- to become refugees doesn't seem like a very sound humanitarian position but the point is that they took a stand, damnit. And against Saddam Hussein. So there. In "Politics as a Vocation", Max Weber calls this sort of thing the "ethic of ultimate ends" and contrasts it with an "ethic of responsibility":

You may demonstrate to a convinced syndicalist, believing in an ethic of ultimate ends, that his action will result in increasing the opportunities of reaction, in increasing the oppression of his class, and obstructing its ascent--and you will not make the slightest impression upon him. If an action of good intent leads to bad results, then, in the actor's eyes, not he but the world, or the stupidity of other men, or God's will who made them thus, is responsible for the evil. However a man who believes in an ethic of responsibility takes account of precisely the average deficiencies of people; as Fichte has correctly said, he does not even have the right to presuppose their goodness and perfection. He does not feel in a position to burden others with the results of his own actions so far as he was able to foresee them; he will say: these results are ascribed to my action. The believer in an ethic of ultimate ends feels 'responsible' only for seeing to it that the flame of pure intentions is not quenched: for example, the flame of protesting against the injustice of the social order. To rekindle the flame ever anew is the purpose of his quite irrational deeds, judged in view of their possible success. They are acts that can and shall have only exemplary value.

And that's what this is all ultimately about -- an effort to evade responsibility by suggesting that what's really at issue here is a controversy over ends. The hawks must have felt Saddam's evil more intensely, must have been more moved by Kenan Makiya's pleas, been more attuned to the gulag, whatever. But no. Everyone knows and everyone knew that Saddam was a bad man. What some also knew was that invading Iraq was unlikely to have beneficial consequences. Cohen considered this possibility and rejected it. Or perhaps he failed to consider it. But either way, he was wrong.

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Hey, the jury was hung, and I was never convicted of syndicalism. And Weber's later political life and writing was a fountain of sorrow that could quench any flame of liberal pragmatism.

But it's a good catch.

Oh Mr Yglesias you made my day!!! Max Weber in all his glory. You might have included Eric Hoffer ("the True Believer") but I doubt I'd have survived the joy. Someday I'll read you quoting Thorstein Veblen and know I've gone to heaven.

The point of course goes back to the dawning of civilization. Think of Achilles leaving Troy a ruin or Sampson pulling down the temple. Read the neo-cons today: Attack Burma!! War on Iran!! Ultimatums to China!! Burn, baby, burn!!

Only weirdo Saddam boot licking cowardly leftist America haters think you have to be concerned with the likely results of your activities.

Good Hawks (librul or regular right wing) know that they are Morally Superior to any degree of reasonable caution in foreign affairs no matter what hell on Earth results from their fevered comic book fantasies.

Fred Barnes is better at this sort of thing than Roger Cohen: since everyone believed that attacking Iraq was a good idea at the time, if you opposed it you must be a weak kneed coward willing to surrender to Islamofascists. The logic false short a little bit, but the display of the utter stupidity in its full glory is a sight to behold.

What some also knew was that invading Iraq was unlikely to have beneficial consequences. Cohen considered this possibility and rejected it.-MY

It's too bad that the Pentagon didn't have the benefit of General Yglesias's military expertise. He even seems to have a kind of prophetic power in addition to his strategic prowess, knowing what Iraq will look like 20 years from now.

I myself am less certain. Harry Truman was widely disliked when he left office and the Korean War was very unpopular. But the end result of that costly war was a standstill, which was better than total communist domination of the peninsula.

Iraq might yet stabilize and George Bush's reputation might yet revive. If Iraq descends into civil war with elements hostile to America taking control, of course Bush's war effort will be judged a failure, as will his Presidency. But that result is not certain, at least not to those of us who must rely on empirical evidence rather than divination.

Shorter Isocrates: magical ponies may one day run across the plains of a peaceful free Iraq, so you can't criticize anything Bush does.

It's an interesting philosophy you have there. Why not take it to its extreme conclusion? You say that we can judge Bush to be a failure if Iraq descends into civil war (interesting use of the conditional there), but by the same logic as you use before, you could just be prematurely declaring defeat. It could be worse, right, and might eventually remedy itself. And we can't really know for sure that Saddam wouldn't have conquered the entire Eurasian landmass by 2008, so a civil war now might be preferable to that alternate Bushless universe.

After all, who are we to question the military prowess of Bush and his high strategist Isocrates?

>He even seems to have a kind of prophetic power in addition to his strategic prowess, knowing what Iraq will look like 20 years from now. I myself am less certain.

Burkean caution requires us to wait 20 years to evaluate the consequences of wars.

"Je ne regrette rien!"

On a more serious note, Isocrates -- you're quite the one to snidely accuse MY of divination rather than empiricism; if anything, this is the one area where MY ought to get points for empiricism, and where you ought to take the beam out of your own eye.

To whit: this Korea-analogy crap is so unbelievably specious that it's widespread rhetorical use on the behalf of the Reactionary Jacobins in this country is a symptom of nothing so much as desperation.

Let's go through the ways in which the analogy is so utterly false, and then have done with it.

1) Korea had a front, a line of division between the Communist and UN forces, one that turned into quite a trench war theater after the Chinese invasion. Iraq is a guerilla war without lines in an urban area.

2) US forces were joined by major allies including Britain and Canada, as well as the UN, in Korea. Aside from the stray Kazakh, we are pretty much on our own in Iraq.

3) As alluded to in Number 1, Korea was a conventional twentieth century industrial war; Iraq is a fourth generation counterinsurgency, that, because of the very nature of counterinsurgency (i.e., don't needlessly kill and humiliate people) we have already fatally bolloxed.

4) Korea is (was) a unitary ethnic country, populated by ethnic Koreans with a common tradition of domination by larger neighboring powers and an organic sense of nationhood extending back thousands of years. Iraq is an artificial colonial melange divided ethnically and religiously and currently undergoing ethnic warfare.


Are there more differences: sure, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

Needless to say, your analogy of Bush to Truman fails as well. Simply because two events have a passing similarity is no reason that they must be analogous, and even if so, analogy in history is never 1:1. Nevertheless, saying Truman got unpopular but is now looked on well is equivalent to arguing that Obama will capitulate on race issues because Stephen Douglass did and they're both from Chicago; it's nonsensical. Yet it's what the American Right is reduced to.

"Je ne regrette rien!"

On a more serious note, Isocrates -- you're quite the one to snidely accuse MY of divination rather than empiricism; if anything, this is the one area where MY ought to get points for empiricism, and where you ought to take the beam out of your own eye.

To whit: this Korea-analogy crap is so unbelievably specious that it's widespread rhetorical use on the behalf of the Reactionary Jacobins in this country is a symptom of nothing so much as desperation.

Let's go through the ways in which the analogy is so utterly false, and then have done with it.

1) Korea had a front, a line of division between the Communist and UN forces, one that turned into quite a trench war theater after the Chinese invasion. Iraq is a guerilla war without lines in an urban area.

2) US forces were joined by major allies including Britain and Canada, as well as the UN, in Korea. Aside from the stray Kazakh, we are pretty much on our own in Iraq.

3) As alluded to in Number 1, Korea was a conventional twentieth century industrial war; Iraq is a fourth generation counterinsurgency, that, because of the very nature of counterinsurgency (i.e., don't needlessly kill and humiliate people) we have already fatally bolloxed.

4) Korea is (was) a unitary ethnic country, populated by ethnic Koreans with a common tradition of domination by larger neighboring powers and an organic sense of nationhood extending back thousands of years. Iraq is an artificial colonial melange divided ethnically and religiously and currently undergoing ethnic warfare.


Are there more differences: sure, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

Needless to say, your analogy of Bush to Truman fails as well. Simply because two events have a passing similarity is no reason that they must be analogous, and even if so, analogy in history is never 1:1. Nevertheless, saying Truman got unpopular but is now looked on well is equivalent to arguing that Obama will capitulate on race issues because Stephen Douglass did and they're both from Chicago; it's nonsensical. Yet it's what the American Right is reduced to.

sorry for the double post. Also, insert "and so therefore will Bush be" after "looked on well" in last para.

I was rather hawkish before the Iraq war. This has partly to do with the fact that my family suffered badly during a dictatorship and had risked their lives to escape it.

Partly – I was defending democracy against some “people” who compared Bush with Hitler. This scared me much more than any potential civilian casualties during a war. But Bush being compared to Hitler, before the war mind you, by people who claimed to understand the difference between democracy and dictatorship – made me blind for any other reasonable discussion. I never thought highly of Bush but that was never the point!

My family had to risk too much and pay a price too high to hear this in the west.

Of course - I would have approached this war very differently and especially in retrospect. Not without FULL European support. Not without real arguments. And not without a switch away from nuclear energy (let alone weapons). I’ve made a mistake in supporting it blindly and in my case as a nervous result to the Hitler comparison (this is not an excuse but an explanation).

Now that we have attacked Saddam and his cultural legacy - we have to make the best of it. I am still optimistic about Iraq. I think that there are good chances that the situation stabilizes over the next 10 years - which is VERY FAST compared to history. It was very unrealistic in the first place to expect a fast turn-around when even Germany and France compared the US to the Nazis (while racism had reached new highs in France itself against Muslims)? Every transition is worse than living under a "peaceful" dictatorship and takes several years.. I believe that only Ancient Greece was different when Solon introduced his laws about 2600 years ago?

But this pro-war anti-war discussion is not even the main issue and tells nothing about your ethical standings as an individual. If it did - the majority of Americans should be compared to Hitler! I like Obama a lot and he has become my favorite - but I'd be careful...

There are enough opportunities for simple citizens without political power to prove how they would treat their dominion in case they had the powers of Bush, Saddam, Hitler and Stalin (I still do not feel comfortable with Bush showing up on this list).

One thing that I carry deep in my heart – is the number of wars that we have experienced between two democracies fighting each other. It is a very very impressive number indeed! If it were not for that number - I would claim that we should forget the word "pacifist" for a while.. but that number hives us hope that this is not a dream. but we HAVE TO start at home with ourselves.

After all, who are we to question the military prowess of Bush and his high strategist Isocrates?

You're ascribing views to me I've never expressed. I always ahd reservations about invading Iraq, largely because I concerned about the difficulty of maintaining order in a country where a good percentage of the population might see us as occupiers rather than liberators. So I have never been an enthusiast for the Bush foreign policy.

But I was never as certain as Commodore Yglesias. It's his tone of near absolute certitude that I found so striking. It's impossible to tell what Saddam and his sons would have done had they remained in power. It's impossible to tell what will happen over the next few years. A man can make probabilistic judgments on these questions, but he ought to be aware of the uncertainties involved... But if Commodore Yglesias has a crystal ball, then I withdraw my criticism and admit that he is justified in his self-assurance.

"What some also knew was that invading Iraq was UNLIKELY to have beneficial consequences."

What part of the word unlikely sounds like it means certainty Isocrates?

Well said Matt, except, re: the refugees "if not millions"...isn't it pretty conclusive by now that there are millions of refugees.

Oh no, that moron Isocrates is infected Yglesias' blog now! ugh....

Isocrates

It is not yours, or that of the US to bring down Saddam Hussein. That should be for the Iraqis to do.
By invading you people have proven yourselves to be what much of the world already knows you are, murderers and thieves.

A Pox on your house
Balzar

Shorter Field Marshall Isocrates:

How dare Matt shove his rightness in my face! After all my wrongness is just as good!

Why credit Cohen et al. with good motives? Friedman admitted (finally) that his support for the war was less than rational; why should anything but the same irrational bellicosity be ascribed to the liberal hawks? The most annoying thing about these liberal hawk apologias is that at this point they're so clearly posturing and spinning to avoid admitting that they simply lost their heads. I mean, does anyone really think that the invasion of Iraq can be cast as a "humanitarian intervention" of the type that has been sought for Darfur, Rwanda etc.?

What part of the word unlikely sounds like it means certainty Isocrates?graeme

I was respnding not just to this post but to Matthew (von Clausewitz) Yglesias's commentary on Iraq in general. A little over a year ago, he declared the war in Iraq, with no sign of diffidence, "a shocking waste of money." He went on to say:

For $1.27 trillion, we have our hands full in a quagmire; the world hating us; worldwide acts of terrorism on the sharp rise; and much more. We could have done better. Much better.

I might say that, in retrospect, the Bush policy was probably misguided. But I still hope that we will succeed there and that hope is not wholly unfounded. If Iraq eventually stabilizes and becomes a reliable American ally then the war will look a lot better than it does now. Some of you are convinced that wont happen. A few might even hope that it doesn't. Again, I'm not sure what justifies that certainty.

From what I have read, the good Commodore went to Harvard where he studied analytic philosophy. It's wonderful that he read some Quine in college, but I'm not sure that makes him a military and foreign policy expert. Not that I would wish him to cease expressing his opinions. I would just advise him to show a little more humility.

Would it change Isocrates' opinion to note that "commodore" Yglesias was originally in favor of OIF?

Sure they laughed at you Isocrates when you bought $10,000 worth of lottery tickets, but if you win you'll be the smart one!

I hate to say it, but Isocrates has a point.

We're only - what? - four years into the "Iraqi Experiment." It is going horribly, of course. For the moment, things have calmed down, but the background problems (the political dynamic at the top and the sectarian dynamic down below; Kirkuk, etc.) hardly make the case for assuming we're in the brink of some golden era.

At the same time, who's to say what will happen even two years from now? Why does anyone think they know? Yeah, the trends suck, but trends don't necessarily decide the future. Major twists have already occurred: the destruction of the Mosque in Samarra to name one massive, if somewhat predictable, event that almost immediately worsened the dynamic. Why can't something happen going th other way, no matter what the odds against? With that in mind, what will be said about the war if things calm down in, say, two years? Three years? How about four? What's the cutoff to stop us from rolling out superlatives like "the worst foreign policy blunder ever?"

Accepting that there are genuine unknowns doesn't require an abiding love for President George Bush or belief that the mission will magically turn around; it may turn around for reasons so completely non-magical they'll border on the depressing (e.g. Iraqis understanding that there are enough dead for now). The central idea is cherishing the hope that Iraqis will turn this around - and, face it, they're the only ones who can. If we can help in some way, unlikely as that may be, that's a kind of penance for us as I see it.

If you want the U.S. out of Iraq, the best bet looks like voting Democrat; at the same time, I'm not sure how much good that will do either. As such, it looks like we'll be sticking around; may as well do something while we're hanging around.

You're not sure what justifies that uncertainty? That's just mind-blowing. What justifies your certainty in the face of the fact that we have too few troops to make a difference and are almost out of them at that?

Would it change Isocrates' opinion to note that "commodore" Yglesias was originally in favor of OIF?

Yes, I had read that. But that makes my point for me. Like George Bush, Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld, Yglesias was for invading Iraq. Maybe he was wrong. But that should make him a little less sure of himself now. And maybe a little less contemptuous of those who, like him, supported the war in good faith.

I know I'll get attacked here. More people will call me a "moron," a "troll," a "fascist," etc... But maybe some more reasonable people will consider my argument that those who are utterly certain that our effort in Iraq is doomed ought to reconsider--that they ought not to be quite so certain. I don't think that's an outrageous claim. I know I poked fun at MY, but I didn't say anything nasty about him. I'm sure he's a bright guy.

Wait, this Isocrates is advising Matt to opine with a little more humility. Is this the same Isocrates who wrote this today?:
"the idea that colonialism caused poverty there is just myth. There is no evidence to support it."

Wow! That declaration is dripping with humility and Oakeshottian skepticism! It must have been the end product of a lifetime of research on an unfathomably dense subject, it must have!

If people here were to argue that the torture camps are unethical, that hawks have overestimated our potential to keep bloodshed at a minimum, that hawks have underestimated how long such a conflict can last , that hawks have not understood the importance of having full support from other major democracies (like with Afghanistan) and the implications for "liberator vs occupier"..

then you would find this former hawk in full support of these arguments.

Eastern European countries - who had just awoken from dictatorship - were in support of the war and yet it was Germany (anti-war) who was the target of recent Al-Qaeda attacks? Darfur and Rwanda are examples of the UN alone not being able to take action. So was former Yugoslavia.

We all carry our burden when it comes to the polarization after 9/11. Not always agreeing with Mr Friedman - I find it decent that he took critique with himself regarding this important point. Without tackling polarization - we will find it hard to improve upon our mistakes and gain confidence from lessons learned? This will not be accomplished unless all sides cease to see the devil everywhere. (The hawks abroad and the doves at home?)

I hate to admit it too (as it has not happened before) but Isocrates and Matt both have a point.

But please point, Isocrates, to what you specifically you think is going well?

Who would run America under wingnut syndicalism?

A group of right wing talk radio hosts?

Alright I gotta make a note of this post. This is one of your best ever, if I may say so.

Partly – I was defending democracy against some “people” who compared Bush with Hitler.

Why don't you name these people. Name the congressmen and senators who voted against the Iraq war that you were defending democracy from. Name the anti-war politicians, presidential candidates, and public media figures who were comparing Bush to Hitler that got you so riled up that you just had to take Bush's side when it came to a clearly stupid, rushed invasion of Iraq. Don't beat around the bush (no pun intended). Name names.

Unfortunately, in the quite rational desire not to apologize for Saddam Hussein's crimes, one overlooks Cohen's crime against logic and good sense. In his column, he quotes the fatuous NYT profile of Kanan Makiya by NYT's Dexter Filkins. Now, Filkins has always been a sold member of the Makiya-Chalabi lobby - he consistently exaggerated Chalabi's place in Iraq and wrote stories from the exile Iraqi position that had little to do with what was really going on in Iraq. One of those positions he got across in his magazine piece is that Saddam Hussein slaughtered over a 'million Iraqis', not including the casualties of the Iraq-Iran war. Now this is quite an astonishing claim. Although it might be true - even though it comes from the same exile community that assured us that Saddam had WMD - that Saddam killed 180,000 Kurds and some lesser number of Shiites, I'd never heard the million figure broached before. Googling around, it gradually became clear that the 500,000 who, by UN estimate, died because of US sanctions on Iraq are being added to Saddam's score.

This is outrageous on two fronts. First, the NYT and the Post both refuse to use the Lancet's estimate of casualties in the Iraq war. Yet the methods used by the Lancet and the UN to get the 500,000 figure are identical, except that the Lancet is better - it has a firmer data base, and a better documented survey. So he who accepts the 500,000 figure should, logically, accept the 675,000 figure in 2005, and the figure of over a million today. You can't just turn off and on the science you will accept to get the figures that you want. That is called lying, propaganda, or the thing the 'enemy' does.

The second front, however, has to do with the usual defense put up by pro-war people. How often do you hear them say, well, those deaths are also the responsibility of the insurgents. Now, of course, that is true. It is also true that the U.S., by invading and stripping the Iraqi state of an army and police force, basically enabled those deaths. Still, fair is fair. But then, to turn around and attribute all the deaths from U.S. imposed sanctions on Saddam to Saddam shows a certain asymetrical view of responsibility. In truth, if the pro-war side is accepting that figure, then 500,000 Iraqis died partially due to the US through sanctions, and a million have died more directly through US actions over the last five years.

What is truly horrible is that the pro-war side is sure to pick up on that million casualty figure absolutely, without any analysis or any reason to think that it logically commits them to the Lancet survey figure. And this propaganda is due to Cohen and Filkins. They are still operating as conduits for war lies. I wonder if the supposed public editor, always babyishly sensitive to General Petraeus' hurt feelings, will mention this? Or explain why the NYT isn't using the Lancet figures as an authoritative source. Could it be because they are operating as a unscrupulous conduit of administration spin?

If the moment of improvement which was to come to Iraq keeps receding further and further into the future -- i.e., hey, in another 10 years Iraq might be better -- well, it also would have improved if Saddam died, leaving Iraq in a much, much better, stable, coherent, productive society, an event whose date was not certain but whose eventual realization was most completely a certainty.

I'm optimistic about the way Iraq will look in 20 years in the same way I'm optimistic about the way Cuba will look in 20 years-- in both cases, most of the malefactors will be dead, and using the premise that things couldn't get much worse, things will have to have improved by then. That's hardly an argument that the Cuban embargo (or even the Cuban revolution) or the Iraq invasion was a good thing.

Roger Cohen and his ilk should be shot down like dogs in the street.

So Isocrates is saying: what? That Roger Cohen is justified in slashing away at Tomasky and Co. because it was only clear at the time that they were PROBABLY right, rather than definitely right? My God.

As for the Korea analogy, that (as Josh Marshall, I believe, has pointed out) is a very unwise one for Bush defenders to use, because Truman's and MacArthur's disastrous mistake in Korea was basically the same as Bush's in Iraq: strategic hubris. We threw the North Koreans out of South Korea and back to their border in short order -- but then T. and M. decided to completely purge North Korea of Communism. When they got near the Chinese border, lo and behold, it turned out that Mao wasn't willing to tolerate that, and we got very bloodily kicked back out of North Korea -- indeed, for a short time the Communists even retook Seoul, forcing that unfortunate city to undergo TWO sieges. After two more years of bloody stalemate, we ended up settling the war at the original North/South border, which we could have done with tremendously less bloodshed.

That is, Truman's invasion of North Korea -- like Bush's invasion of Iraq -- was a diastrous exercise in overreaching, and Truman got those tremendously low approval ratings in his last two years (which Bush keeps hopefully referring to where his own future rep is concerned) the old-fashioned way: he earned them.

As for Yglesias initially backing the war (as did Kevin Drum, Josh Marshall, little old me, and a hell of a lot of other liberal hawks), we did so for one simple reason: we couldn't believe that a government run by Cheney and Rumsfeld -- who, up to then, had shown no sign of clinical insanity, whatever you thought of their morals -- would be willing to lie through their teeth about the existence of a phantom nuclear progam in Iraq in order to justify our invading and occupying the place while ignoring the presence of real and very dangerous nuclear proliferation in other parts of the world. In short, we failed to consider the extremely unlikely -- but in this case true -- possibility that the Vice President and Defense Secretary of the United States would suddenly come down with simultaneous attacks of literally psychotic military overconfidence.

In this connection, let's reprint a blast from the past: Kevin Drum on Feb. 6, 2003 ( http://www2.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2003_02/000346.php ):

"Unlike, say, during the Tonkin Gulf incident, this administration is under intense scrutiny. There's enormous distrust of what they say, and they know it. They won't get the free pass that LBJ did.

"What's more, they know that everything they say is easily verifiable once the war starts. No one ever pressed LBJ for proof of what happened in the Tonkin Gulf, but there will be dozens of countries and dozens more NGOs who will be looking very closely at what we find in Iraq after ground forces move in. It will hardly be possible to fake vast numbers of mobile weapons labs, swimming pools of anthrax, ballistic missiles, and the like, and if those things aren't found in substantial and convincing quantities George Bush will be lucky to escape impeachment, let alone win reelection."

__________________

Ah, yes, those fond days when one could still believe that America has a rational political system. Maybe we should have read more Schiller.

Tyro

Bush-Hitler Remark Shows U.S. as Issue In German Election

New York Times
Published: September 20, 2002

A reported remark by a German minister comparing President Bush's tactics over Iraq to those of Hitler envenomed a close-fought German election today and demonstrated how anti-Americanism had moved to the center of political debate here.


At the same time in France:
2002 French presidential election consisted of a first round election on 21 April 2002, and a runoff election between the top two candidates (Jacques Chirac and Jean-Marie Le Pen) on 5 May 2002. This presidential contest attracted a greater than usual amount of international attention because of Le Pen's unexpected appearance in the runoff election. Although Le Pen's political party National Front describes itself as mainstream conservative, non-partisan observers conclude that it is a far right party.

_____________

In other words - France was just fighting of a democratic victory by a Muslim hating fascists - while Germany was silent on what happened only years ago in former Yugoslavia.

Both France (full of racists) and Germany (full of racists) - were against the prevention of a genocide of Muslims by Christians in their own continent. The UN was against preventing the genocide.

But both countries - had no problem to use the tragedy of 9/11 for their own petty politics - by distracting from the fact that they NEVER want to get involved. It did not help that France AND Germany had MORE vested oil interests in Iraq than the US and were afraid to lose their investments?

What about North Korea. When the IAEA discovered illegal nuclear activities there - both Germany and France claimed it was nothing. Both Germany and France were against getting rid of Saddam during the first golf war (Saddam bombed and invaded Kuwait - he truly wanted to distract from domestic problems in contrast to the US). They suggested sanctions - not the US. Thatcher was urging Bush I to take Saddam and NOT listen to the Germans and French but Bush I did not want to anger partners... Ask the new French president what he thinks of Chiraq and Schröder?

Did it help that German diplomats told Arab nations that Bush, the US, was behaving like Hitler? Those countries need to apologize too.. For WWII.. For Communism, for the first golf war, for Yugoslavia, for... it is not the US that always and only fucks up. The US, as the only superpower is attracted by other fuck ups as there is nobody else.

Nooo... Germany and France always have portrait the US as the biggest enemy on the planet. They blame them for Iraq but do not mention that they did not want to get rid of Saddam after he invaded an innocent country. They promoted UN sanction instead that killed too many but left the rich Saddam and their oil investments with him intact. They fucked up in Yugoslavia.

The American people, and Bush, are NOT Nazis.. they are a multi-cultural, multi-religious nations - one of the very few. They want to watch movies, sports, porn, make money, etc.. not go to war.

Dear Matt,

A strongly argued and elegantly written post, as usual. But I have a quibble from your left.

You blame the pro-war party chiefly for lack of foresight. This overlooks two more fundamental objections to the war. First, it was illegal, a clear violation of the UN Charter, which has the status of law for all signatories. This isn't a technicality. The UN was founded on the premise, still valid, that a universal and public commitment to foreswear military force except in self-defense against imminent attack, if lived up to over generations, would gradually create a culture of law-abidingness and make the world an immeasurably safer place. Over the last fifty years, the US -- much the most powerful and influential nation in the world -- has frequently disregarded the Charter. As a result, respect for international law is much, much weaker throughout the world, and resort to military force much more likely, than they might have been had the US lived up to its legal obligations.

Second, no literate and honest person could take seriously, even in 2001, the Bush administration's professed desire to spread democracy to the Middle East. The administration and the Republican Party are led by people who, both internationally and domestically, have never shown the slightest understanding of or respect for democracy. On the contrary, they've consistently undermined it. It could hardly have been plainer, even in 2001, that the purpose of the Iraq invasion was to extend American strategic power in the region in order to control its vast and crucial energy resources.

As far as I can recall, not a single American liberal or leftist who supported the war had the sense or decency to say: "Yes, this is an illegal war undertaken for base reasons, but I support it anyway, because it will have beneficial collateral effects." If any had, then blaming him or her now merely for lack of foresight would be appropriate. But as things stand, that's letting them off far too easily.

Sorry, "2001" in my previous post should have been "2003."

Ah, Hugo, I thought you were referring to Americans who did those things. Now I see that you were deciding that "America" needed defending against people abroad who were comparing Bush to Hitler, and you decided to support the war as a means of taking "America's" side. Your error lies in confusing the Bush administration with "America."

If you were concerned with siding with "America" against foreigners comparing Bush to "Hitler," you could have sided with the people and politicians who were against the war.

George

The UN is a splendid idea.. The term "United Nations" (which appears in stanza 35 of Canto III of Byron's Childe Harold's Pilgrimage) was decided by Franklin D. Roosevelt and Winston Churchill during World War II, to refer to the Allies.

Today it has 192 members - many of which ARE dictatorships! This means that officially - nobody can say anything against "dictators" within the United Nations. This in itself is strange once you read the Human Rights convention?????

This fact alone and your bold statement that the administration and the Republican Party are led by people who have never shown the slightest understanding of or respect for democracy... tells me that you do not know much about the world you live in?

You too seem to compare Bush to Hitler and hence the twice elected administration to Nazis?

Did you argue the same way when Bill Clinton "invaded" former Yugoslavia against UN resolution?

Please - do yourself a favor and buy a world ticket soon! You will be surprised what the US looks like after having lived a few years in Saudi Arabia or say Zimbabwe.

Your tongue is one side of polarization coin! Read your post above and tell me - how are you better than the worst slurs of Bush (us vs them)?

Hugo, are you under the impression that democracies have never gone to war against each other? I've heard that claim, and it's bizarre. The US had a civil war where the two sides were both democracies. And the US has overthrown democratically-elected governments at least 3 times in the 20th Century. That's not a war, but overthrowing a government would normally be considered a little bit hostile. I'm sure we Americans would get a bit testy if it were done to us.

Roger--I caught that claim about the numbers too. I doubt there's anything so logical going on as a simple addition of sanctions deaths to, say, the Human Rights Watch estimate of 300,000 murders under Saddam. Rather, I think it's the old principle at work first pointed out by Chomsky--there's absolutely no need for any standard of evidence when talking about the crimes of an enemy. The NYT would never casually throw out an unsourced claim that the US invasion had killed over a million people in Iraq. They barely even report the Lancet II study and so far as I know, have yet to mention the recent ORB poll. But 1 million murdered by Saddam--all that is needed for that to be printed is for some Iraqi exile to make the claim. And then Mr. Filkins will report Makiya's guesses (200,000, 500,000, or a vague reference to a "study") and wouldn't you know it? Those guesses are lower than the guess for the number of Saddam's victims. So we can all proceed safe under the assumption that we're still not as bad as he was.

The honest thing to do would be to say that all estimates, for both Saddam and post-2003 Iraq, are controversial. But that's not the way the NYT operates.

Tyro

I was defending democracy.. not the US. Bush was elected twice by... Americans I guess? How often was Saddam elected or better how?

After all - were I grew up the Communist held elections (problem was that there was only one candidate on the ballot).

The only thing that one could do to vote against the only candidate was to eat the ballot - and many have! It tasted half bad?

But I think I know what you are saying now. You and George - you do not have a problem with America. You have a problem with Americans and what they voted for?

Tell me again - what is the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship?

Donald

I was under the impression that blacks were not allowed to vote in the South? My mistake!

What were the other "wars" again?

Tell me - how many wars have there been between dictatorships over the last 100 years and how many between democracies. Thank you!

I wondered if you'd use that reason, Hugo. Yes, the Confederacy had some rather severe limitations on who could vote. But the two sides were democracies.

Actually, if you go by the standard you wish to use the US hasn't been a real democracy for more than a generation or so. That must be why we've started so many wars. Though, come to think of it, we've continued to start wars, fund terrorists, and fight wars by proxy even after the civil rights movement.

I do prefer democracy to dictatorship, Hugo, like any sensible person who isn't a dictator, but I don't get all starry-eyed and sentimental about the virtues of the system. Actually-existing democracy is the least bad of all possible forms of government, but democracies are often bellicose.

I forgot to answer your question about other wars. The US started wars with various Indian nations, it started a war with Mexico, it started a war with Spain, it started a war with the Philippine insurgents, it has invaded various Latin American countries numerous times, it took over Hawaii, it overthrew democratically elected leaders in Guatemala, Chile, and Iran. And lord knows how many proxy civil wars we've been involved in, supporting wonderful people like Jonas Savimbi, for instance.

But discounting all that, you're right--we're a remarkably peace-loving people.

Is Isocrates a freshman philosophy major? He sure sounds like one. All he has to do is throw in "dialectic" a few times to perfect the poseur posture. He isn't really saying anything beyond the fact that nothing in this world is certain. However, when choosing to launch a war, this very idea means that the burden of proof lies with those choosing to launch the war. War is chaos and violence unleashed. Entering into it is not to be taken lightly. It is not a college seminar in which taking interesting positions will win you points with the professor.

By the way, if you wanted to know how Iraq would turn out, you would just have to read George H. W. Bush's explanation for why they didn't march on Baghdad (besides the UN considerations). You could ask Dick Cheney in 1994. You could ask plenty of people at the State Department. The Bush administration chose to ignore them. They believe the racist tract "The Arab Mind" explains Arab society. Douglas Feith told at least one Arabic speaker at State that it was a shame that he knew about the Middle East and understood Arabic. Like the communists of old (the ideological predecessors of the neocons), they believed having the right theory would yield the right results.

"But I still hope that we will succeed there and that hope is not wholly unfounded. If Iraq eventually stabilizes and becomes a reliable American ally then the war will look a lot better than it does now. Some of you are convinced that wont happen. A few might even hope that it doesn't. Again, I'm not sure what justifies that certainty."

How about every single frickin' fact known to man about the CURRENT situation in Iraq?

You're sitting there trying to tell us that in five years, or ten years, or twenty years, Iraq will be different.

Well, DUH! SURE Iraq will be different. This civil war won't last forever. Everybody KNOWS that!

The question is whether the COST to Iraq and the US was worth whatever accommodation the Iraqi people eventually make to establish some sort of order compared to just allowing Saddam to muddle on.

Not to mention the potential of destabilization of the region, given the US and Israeli intent to export the conflict to Iran and Syria and Lebanon.

You think at least a TRILLION US dollars, several thousand US military lives, scores of thousands of US wounded, a MILLION Iraqi civilian dead, MORE than a MILLION Iraqi wounded, TWO MILLION Iraqi refugees, and TWO MILLION internally displaced Iraqis, ethnic cleansing, decades of religious sectarianism hardened, and the destruction of most of the national infrastructure was BETTER than letting Saddam kill a few thousand more Iraqis and, for that matter, even invading and occupying Kuwait?

That is simply moronic.

It demonstrates that you have absolutely no frickin' interest whatsoever in justifying the removal of Saddam because of the IMPACT on IRAQIS! It merely demonstrates your own inability to accept that your support for the war and for Bush was completely and brain dead wrong.

And don't give us any horseshit about how you didn't support the war. You wouldn't be babbling about how it might "all turn out for the best" if you really didn't.

If the point you're trying to make is merely that history moves on and eventually things will be "different" in Iraq than they are now, well, like I said above: DUH!

Let's try making things "different" at less COST next time, okay?

For example, the next time you want a dictator dead, pay me my fee and it'll get done at considerably less than a TRILLION DOLLARS!

"As such, it looks like we'll be sticking around; may as well do something while we're hanging around."

Yeah - like killing another few hundred thousand civilians with air strikes, maiming another few hundred thousand, losing another three thousand US troops, and maiming another fifteen thousand or so.

Not to mention spending another trillion dollars.

Another moron.

"Ah, yes, those fond days when one could still believe that America has a rational political system. Maybe we should have read more Schiller."

Maybe you should have read more anarchists.

Or maybe you could have read those people who were pointing out that it was bullshit at the time - people like Scott Ritter and Hans Blix, for example.

But basically, anybody who bought into Bush's bullshit at the time are the same nitwits who are buying into the SAME bullshit about Iran THIS time.

Yglesias STILL hasn't explicitly stated that there should be NO military option "on the table" with regard to Iran. He darts around the topic like a kitten chasing a flashlight beam.

Why? Because he wants to keep HIS options "on the table" to come down on the side of the Iran war WHEN IT STARTS and everybody is clamoring for it - just like they did during the run up to Iraq.

He figures it will be a couple years later before he has to finally admit that he was wrong AGAIN - and that maybe THIS time nobody will remember that he was wrong TWICE. Or maybe, like the other twits posting here believe, Bush will GET IT RIGHT THIS TIME and he won't HAVE TO apologize!

It's called "intellectual cowardice" - and Josh Marshall and the rest are experts at it.

I was defending democracy..

No you weren't. America's democracy was not at risk and didn't need any help from you. Invading Iraq was, nevertheless, a phenomenally stupid idea. We are all tasked with having the good sense to realize that instead of retreating to, "well, Bush wants it, and he was elected, so I should support the idea, especially because leaders in other democracies are against it."

Hack's hysterics to the contrary ("Maybe you should have read more anarchists"??), I'm not sure that a properly designed military attack on Iran's nuclear program WOULD be wrong. Neither, apparently, is Yglesias, although he seems to come down on the side of it probably being impossible to execute properly. But if I had to name an administration capable of fucking it up irrevocably by trying to use bombing for other purposes (such as "stimulating regime change"), this is the one -- a point on which Yglesias and I agree entirely.

Getting back to Cohen's column: note that he doesn't just say that invading Iraq to knock out a genuine and major Iraqi nuclear program would have been justified, even if we left a huge and bloody mess behind -- an argument which is highly defensible, and which is what motivated most of us early and now repentant Iraq hawks. He insists that it was justifiable to support invading Iraq just to "reform" its government -- and with an army obviously and absurdly too small to do so.

Note also Rumsfeld's bizarre failure to immediately occupy -- or even to adequately guard, even WEEKS after the invasion -- the Iraqi military depots which just about everyone thought were genuinely likely to contain Iraqi chemical and biological weapons. As Brad Delong keeps saying, thank God Saddam really DIDN'T have any CBWs; because if he had, most of them would now be safely in the hands of You Know Who. The only possible explanations for this behavior by the Administration are that (1) they actually knew in advance that Saddam didn't have any CBWs either, and lied to us about that as well; or (2) they are genuine, literal idiots. Neither is comforting.

Hugo Pottisch seems like a decent guy, though rather naive and misguided.

Given that he apparently grew up under a Communist dictatorship, he deserves some sympathy from us.

But perhaps he should realize that a very large fraction of the neocon instigators of our disastrous Iraq policy are either former Communists themselves or come from families of hard-core Communists. As just one example, Bill Kristol's father and mother met at a Young Communist meeting, so one might even say that Kristol has been been a Communist since before he was even born.

Now is it really safe to trust the judgment of people who, together with their parents and grandparents, gleefully supported the mass extermination of something like 100 million innocent civilians during the twentieth century and also the long-term enslavement of large portions of the world, including (presumably) Hugo's own homeland?

Admittedly, since Communism has grown passe, these people no longer claim to be Communists. But in all significant respects---bloodthirsty fanaticism, hate for freedom and liberty, love of torture---they certainly continue to act like the absolute worst of the Communists, although the their one million slaughtered victims in Iraq are admittedly a pretty small number compared to Stalin's victims.

Frankly, if America had simply wiped all their families out fifty or sixty years ago, our country and the world would be a much, much more peaceful place today, and many, many hundreds of thousands of innocent lives would have been saved.


Speaking of Iraq, Professor Victor Davis Hanson was just there and he reports some initial observations. Among them:

"Almost all the Marines and Army units I visited from Ramadi to Taji to various hot spots in Baghdad and Diyala believe there has been a sudden shift in the pulse of battlefield. Sometimes without much warning thousands of once disgruntled Sunni have turned on al Qaeda, ceased resistance, and are flocking to join government security forces and begging the Americans to stop both al Qaeda and Shiite militias.

Commanders in the field are cautious." [...]

"There is more optimism about success among the battlefield soldiers than present with analysts in Baghdad. The sudden decrease in violence has left many units stunned that Iraqis who used to try to kill them are suddenly volunteering information about terrorists and landmines, and clamoring to join the joint security force. Usually those behind the desk are the optimists, the soldiers who die the pessimists. But instead there is genuine feeling on the front that after four frustrating years of ordeal, at last there are tangible signs of real, often radical improvement."

VDH has one reservation though. Read the rest at his blog if you're interested.

Ah yes, VDH, the guy who thinks he can read the minds of Athenians and Spartan warriors of millenia past.

"Ah yes, VDH, the guy who thinks he can read the minds of Athenians and Spartan warriors of millenia past."

Well in this case, he has the benefit of meeting and speaking with living warriors in the present.

Wow! I'm getting into this thread late but just wanted to say thanks, MY, for that superbly apposite passage from Weber. You could write an entire essay on how the ethics of responsibility is today characteristic of Democrats, while the ethics of ultimate ends characterizes the Republicans, and how that shifted over the past few decades.

Fred,

VD Hanson is just trying to cover his butt. There is nothing positive to report from Iraq, no matter how he spins it.

"I'm not sure that a properly designed military attack on Iran's nuclear program WOULD be wrong."

Which makes you utterly incompetent to comment on it, since the consensus of military experts is that it will not be possible to do anything more than delay the program for a few years, if that.

Not to mention that Iran does not have a nuclear weapons program, merely a nuclear energy program - which it is entirely legal for it to have.

Which means you're advocating breaking the NPT Charter and the UN Charter and international law to bomb Iran for no rational reason.

Which is an interesting way to declare something NOT wrong.

Iran CAN be prevented - by continuous bombing every time they construct a nuclear energy site - from achieving a successful nuclear energy program.

But if you think they're simply going to sit back and let the US bomb their project every few months without doing something about it, then you are an idiot.

Iran has the capability - if they can get the Iraqi Shia to join in - to DESTROY the US military in Iraq. Not defeat - DESTROY.

And if the US thinks they can just bomb Iran at random for the next ten years, they're sadly mistaken.

The US can certainly destroy Iran's economy and infrastructure - just as it has Iraq's. What it cannot do is defeat Iran - any more than it has defeated the Iraqis. If you want a guaranteed way to have them "come over here", then bomb them over there. Keep it up and they WILL come over here and they WILL come here with a stolen Israeli nuke.

And no amount of bombing can prevent that.

What can prevent it is to engage Iran, acknowledge its position in the ME, allow it to develop the nuclear energy program it requires for its internal energy needs, and give it security guarantees that it won't be attacked for the benefit of the US oil companies, neocons and Israel.

So shove your "hysterics" comment up your ass. You're the dolt who is engaging in hysterics by suggesting that Iran should be bombed.

we did so for one simple reason: we couldn't believe that a government run by Cheney and Rumsfeld (...)would be willing to lie through their teeth about the existence of a phantom nuclear progam in Iraq in order to justify our invading and occupying the place while ignoring the presence of real and very dangerous nuclear proliferation in other parts of the world.

I never understood that reasoning: if SH had had all these horrible WMD and had been the genocidal madman hawks said he was, how would a full scale invasion increase security? Would he not have been tempted to use chemical and biological weapons against US troops, neighbouring states and the Kurds and/or Shiites? If he had all those nuclear precusors, what would have kept him from making a dirty bomb and detonating it to devastating effect? The invasion was announced long enough beforehand to allow SH to prepare and the goal of regime change was clear from the start, so that he might very likely have opted for the Armageddon option? How could hawks simply discount this possibility, why were there close to no preparations taken by the US to fend off the consequences of WMD use? Or were hawks arguing that the risk of WMD use would have been worth taking? Generally, if a country has WMD, you try to negotiate, no?

I keep asking this question but... how can any one here seriously talk about ethics?

How do I know that you are not all lying? How do I know that all those "pacifists" here are really anti-war and not anti-republican? i do feel the hate here - brothers and sisters?

Here is a simple test. If any of you were king of the world and had full dominion - how would you treat people?

Bear in mind that from my point of view - you all seem to be more interested in domestic politics than what is really going on in the world. I might be wrong.

Back to the test - can anybody here tell me if they eat factory farmed products for example? If you do - does that mean that you would not be much better than Hitler (the republicans) and Stalin (the democrats) if you had the same power over billions of humans? To be honest - I believe that you would act the same...

Here more prove!

Stop the lame talking - show some walking!

If we win in Iraq, what do we win?

Back to the test - can anybody here tell me if they eat factory farmed products for example? If you do - does that mean that you would not be much better than Hitler (the republicans) and Stalin (the democrats) if you had the same power over billions of humans? To be honest - I believe that you would act the same...

Well, there you go, and that's a good reason for me not to waste any time responding to such mentally ill "tests".

El

Thank you for your long and elaborate arguments!

Bush = Hitler

Well, there you go, and that's a good reason for me not to waste any time responding to such mentally ill ...

How do I know that all those "pacifists" here are really anti-war and not anti-republican?

Hardly anyone here is a pacifist. They merely made the logical conclusion that invading Iraq was a bad idea. One of these days, you should realize that, even if you are not a pacifist and believe that war is warranted, just because your leader says "let's go to war!" you don't have to agree. In fact, you can oppose it.

"I'm not sure that a properly designed military attack on Iran's nuclear program WOULD be wrong."

Words of strategic or moral insanity, whichever comes first.

"I'm not sure that a properly designed military attack on Iran's nuclear program WOULD be wrong."

This may be the craziest sentence ever written.

Outstanding post, Matt. Reminds me also of the philosophy of Raymond Aron, a French follower of Weber, who sometimes is wrongly tagges as a French neocon, but would hate the philosophy of Kristol et al. Aron was thought of as a "conservative" in the 40's and most of the 50's because he was strongly anti-Soviet. But then he advocated French withdrawal from Algeria, because that's where the facts led him. That position was to the "left" of the French socialist party, but "right" and "left" did not mean much with regard to foreign policy and in many ways still don't. The more important divide on Iraq was between realists/pragmatists and idealists, with the neocons falling squarely in the camp of the starry-eyed idealists: "Change Iraq and seven other problems in the middle east will magically solve themselves," with no awareness of the complexities and tribalisms of that region.

how many of you have used the word "polarization" or at least its meaning?

I am curious - what do commenter here think about the issue of "polarization"? Is it good or bad and how does it happen?

Is it relevant to our discussion at all? Do you all agree that all Republicans do not know anything about democracy as has been stated here?

Also - what do people do as individuals and on a daily basis in order to fight their own human nature regarding the characteristics criticized in Bush & Co?

Do you, for example, agree that we are at war with nature ? I am curious how you think/act about that? I need some personal stories and examples...

"If you were concerned with siding with "America" against foreigners comparing Bush to "Hitler," you could have sided with the people and politicians who were against the war."

Posted by Tyro

Hugo is just another liar, feigning shock at intemperate language from the other side, while having no such vapors at horrible actions from his own side. A standard pro-war false liberal.

I am curious. An estimated 23% of the universe is composed of dark matter. Yet no one seems to be speaking up for that. I feel this makes most of you like Pol Pot.

"Not to mention spending another trillion dollars.
Another moron."

Love the way Richard Hack elevates the conversation. The anti-this-particular-war people admit Saddam was a bad dictator, but the question is how bad. They don't think he was bad enough to remove from power.

Easy for them to say from their cloistered First-World existences.

The Hawks and Rumsfled et al, badly misjudged how much damage years and years of Madleine Albrights sanctions (half a million dead Iraqi kids) + Saddam had done. Iraq was a total mess and instead of what we have now, we'd have Qusay and his psycho bro Uday in charge if nothing had been done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uday_Hussein

Speaking of Red-Baiting, India's Communist party (part of the governing-coalition) is more anti-Burmese junta than their governing coalition partners and the so-called American left!

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/world/asia/09india.html

So Peter K, you think even Hussein's crazy sons would be better at ruling Iraq than the Americans + Maliki?

I don't. I think your premise is wrong. The U.S. could have used several levers in 2001 to increase the chance of Saddam's internal overthrow. The two that I think would have been most effective were doubling the aid to Northern Iraq - making Northern Iraq successful would have been destabilizing (this idea comes from, of all people, Richard Perle - one of those rare fits of intelligence, don't you know) and ending the double sanction regime by removing Iran from it. If the U.S. had, sensibly, recognized Iran in 2002, the discomfort of the Ba'athist elite would have been tremendous. Iran was - and to many, still is - Iraq's biggest enemy. I don't believe, given the past four years, that Saddam Hussein's continued power in Iraq was a given - and a smooth transition to his sons would simply not have happened.
That would have been the wisest thing to do, and it would accord with U.S. priorities - since Iraq should not have been a big U.S. foreign policy priority. In fact, the only real U.S. foreign policy priority in 2002 in Central Asia was repairing Bush and Rumsfeld's mistake of intentionally allowing Osama bin Laden and his core group to escape so that, crazily, they could retain a terrorist threat on tap to scare voters. Otherwise, obviously, the U.S. should have been dealing with Mexico's slow economic implosion, which will have a much greater impact on this country than anything happening in Iraq.

Well, Hugo. Because someone somewhere compared Bush to Hitler you let Bush enter in an illegal war, use extraordinary rendition, torture, murder, enter in an spiral of corruption, lie, and otherwise ignore legality?

Yeah, sounds so rational. See, now I'll call Bush "Hitler". Go nuke Iran...

The anti-this-particular-war people admit Saddam was a bad dictator, but the question is how bad. They don't think he was bad enough to remove from power.

Easy for them to say from their cloistered First-World existences.

It's easy to advocate war if you are not the one to fight it.

It's easy to advocate war if others will pay for it.

It's easy to advocate for "democratization" if it is not your house that "accidentally" gets bombed, when it's your family that are termed "accepted collateral damage" to those in their "cloistered First-World existences."

fix - . . . when it's not your family . . .

aracne

I have written above:

If people here were to argue that the torture camps are unethical, that hawks have overestimated our potential to keep bloodshed at a minimum, that hawks have underestimated how long such a conflict can last , that hawks have not understood the importance of having full support from other major democracies (like with Afghanistan) and the implications for "liberator vs occupier".. then you would find this former hawk in full support of these arguments.

I have also stated that I believe that Matt and others here have a point!

But I have also asked the following - please try to answer the core:

how many of you have used the word "polarization" or at least its meaning?

I am curious - what do commenter here think about the issue of "polarization"? Is it good or bad and how does it happen?

Is it relevant to our discussion at all? Do you all agree that all Republicans do not know anything about democracy as has been stated here?

Also - what do people do as individuals and on a daily basis in order to fight their own human nature regarding the characteristics criticized in Bush & Co?

Do you, for example, agree that we are at war with nature? I am curious how you think/act about that? I need some personal stories and examples...

I have read the words: insane, insanity.. etc here but not the anything about seeing both sides of the coin and not about "polarization". How do you feel about this, aracne?

btw - why was the war illegal? tell me - what is the difference between democracies and dictatorships? And tell me - how many wars have there been between dictatorships over the last 100 years and how many between democracies. Thank you!

I think MattY needs to organize a "Post Like Hugo Pottisch"-themed thread.

The non-sequiturs, the seething hostility draped in a veneer of "let's just get along and agree with me" tone. It would be awesome.

Christopher Hitchens comes to mind. He’s been very diligent about seizing every example he can find of a liberal being “soft” on Saddam, thus making sure to present the debate over war as a debate between people who hated Saddam and people who didn’t think Saddam was all THAT bad. This works out well for Hitchens, who has always been more of a moralist than a policy wonk, and it plays to his strengths as a debater. But it ignores the reality that the debate was actually about assessing unintended consequences, skepticism over America’s capability to play a vanguard role in Middle Eastern society and the common sense acknowledgment that no matter how bad Saddam was or Uday and Qusay were likely to be, it was not impossible for Iraq to get worse.

Hitchens made sure to ridicule war opponents who placed a premium on stability, labeling us all as the “realist” intellectual brethren of Henry Kissinger. For him, the choice was clear: accept the loathsome and brutal rule of Saddam or fight it. Better to die fighting totalitarianism than live under it. I suspect it’s a lot easier to choose the former for someone who lives in Washington DC than for someone who lives in Baghdad.

I trust Iraqi voices much more to get a sense of how things are going in Iraq than I do American journalists or politicans who get their information from stage-managed visits, particularly a visit by a professional jingoist like Victor Davis Hanson. An excellent Iraqi resource is the Institute for War and Peace Reporting's Iraq Report:
http://iwpr.net/?p=icr&s=p&o=-&apc_state=henpicr

Some of the headlines from the latest report:
"Climate of Fear Stymies Basra Reporters"
"Biased Kirkuk Media Inflame Tension"
"Militants Pick Off Mosul Snappers"
"Karbala Radio Station Challenges Traditions"
"Proposed Press Law Too Limited"
"Baghdad’s TV Escapists "

"I never understood that reasoning: if SH had had all these horrible WMD and had been the genocidal madman hawks said he was, how would a full scale invasion increase security? Would he not have been tempted to use chemical and biological weapons against US troops, neighbouring states and the Kurds and/or Shiites? If he had all those nuclear precusors, what would have kept him from making a dirty bomb and detonating it to devastating effect? The invasion was announced long enough beforehand to allow SH to prepare and the goal of regime change was clear from the start, so that he might very likely have opted for the Armageddon option? How could hawks simply discount this possibility, why were there close to no preparations taken by the US to fend off the consequences of WMD use? Or were hawks arguing that the risk of WMD use would have been worth taking? Generally, if a country has WMD, you try to negotiate, no?"

Like North Korea? Saddam was on his way. In 1991 everyone was surprised how far they were.

I remember anti-war people saying not to invade Iraq b/c he'd use WMDs on the soldiers, etc.

Why was Saddam kicking out the UN inspectors and not coming clean? Because he was bluffing his internal enemies and neighbors. After 9-11, they decided the ME is screwed up, partly b/c of the Cold War, and it produced al Qaeda. Are they going to invade Saudi Arabia or Pakistan? Of course not, so they do a nuclear deal with India and knock out the Saudis bulwark against the Shia masses to the East and start the process of democratization. Plus if things get bad in the ME, the global oil market is jeapordized which means the global economy would be jeapordized.

If the global economy tanks, you'd have many wars, not just one in Iraq. It wouldn't just be the oil companies' profits at risk.

"I keep asking this question but... how can any one here seriously talk about ethics?"

Well, I don't. And I've said so. I talk correctness. I don't wave my "morality" around as a flag, or wear "ethics" as a lapel pin.

"How do I know that you are not all lying? How do I know that all those "pacifists" here are really anti-war and not anti-republican? i do feel the hate here - brothers and sisters?"

How do we know who the fuck you are? There are plenty of clever trolls who start off sounding reasonable, then turn stupid. Prove you aren't one. I suspect you'll find that difficult.

"Here is a simple test. If any of you were king of the world and had full dominion - how would you treat people?"

Stupid question. Aside from the neocons and right wing nuts here, I doubt most people here want to be "king of the world."

But I'll bite. I'm a radical Transhumanist. Which means, given the right technology some day, I could really do things on a global scale that would effect everybody on the planet.

And you don't want to know what I'd do. At the very least, your ass would be transformed into a Transhuman whether you wanted to or not - because after being so transformed, you wouldn't complain.

And if you actually had the ability to resist that transformation, I'd fry your ass. OR more likely, ignore you and let you continue to stew in your irrational human juices with the rest of the chimpanzees.

"Bear in mind that from my point of view - you all seem to be more interested in domestic politics than what is really going on in the world. I might be wrong."

You are. I don't give a damn about US domestic politics. I also don't see them as the be all and end all that the rest of the posters here - and Matt - seem to. I view the neocons and the Zionists and the Christian Zionists at least as having goals which go considerably beyond just winning the next election. And those goals are bad news for just about everybody. And most of the so-called "solutions" bandied about by Matt and others here - which entail mostly letting some Democrats win the next election - aren't even close to dealing with the problem.

"Back to the test - can anybody here tell me if they eat factory farmed products for example?"

What the hell has that got to do with anything? Do you even KNOW what products are "factory farmed"? Do you track the source of all products and resources consumed to produce every product you use? I doubt it.

"If you do - does that mean that you would not be much better than Hitler (the republicans) and Stalin (the democrats) if you had the same power over billions of humans? To be honest - I believe that you would act the same..."

What does "factory farming" have to do with "power over billions"? "Billions" do not eat factory farmed food - Americans do.

You're perilously close to babbling here.

Peter K gets it wrong again. Does he ever get embarrassed at being wrong all the time? Naah, 'course not - he's a right wing nut.

"They don't think he was bad enough to remove from power."

No, stupid. We don't think he was bad enough to remove from power the WAY IT WAS DONE, AT THE COST THAT IT TOOK.

Is that clear enough for you?

Like I said, you want a dictator removed - you talk to me. I'm way cheaper than several TRILLION DOLLARS.

Even if you think removing Saddam wasn't enough, and that removing the Baath Party was the actual goal, well, gee, that, too, could have been done for a lot less than what we've done in Iraq. We could have, for example, supported Iran during the Iran-Iraq war. We could have supplied the Shia forces Iran was training during the '80's and '90's with money and weapons. We could have supplied the Kurds with money and weapons. We could have simply gone in, trashed Saddam and the Baath Party in March, 2003, then turned around and marched right back out again in April.

Instead, we tried to seize the oil. What part of that don't you understand?

See, you really don't give a shit about "removing Saddam from power". That's just your cover story. You really want the US to control Iraq's oil, dominate the ME, and probably just kick some Arab ass for the grins. You're just another US imperialist hiding behind your "moral superiority".

So shove your moral high horse up your ass.

How's that "elevation" for you?

Peter K gets it embarassingly wrong yet again:

"Why was Saddam kicking out the UN inspectors and not coming clean?"

In 2002 and 2003 he wasn't doing either.

It's that simple.

Scott Ritter and Hans Blix had it right. Bush and Cheney were lying.

And you still support the liars.

Not to mention repeating their lies.

Which makes you a liar.

And NONE of this "assessment" makes any sense:

"After 9-11, they decided the ME is screwed up, partly b/c of the Cold War, and it produced al Qaeda."

Which means they were a little late, since it was apparent to most people that the ME was screwed up for the last two or three decades.

Hell, British actress Stephanie Beacham toured Pakistan and the ME back in the late '70's and early '80's and warned people about Islamic fundamentalism back then.

The Iran revolution occurred in the late '70's. Saddam invaded Iran with US blessing in 1980. The US supported the Afghans and others who became Al Qaeda. Where was everybody then?

Al Qaeda was operating long before 9/11.

"Are they going to invade Saudi Arabia or Pakistan? Of course not, so they do a nuclear deal with India and knock out the Saudis bulwark against the Shia masses to the East and start the process of democratization."

What does any of that have to do with "democratization"? Are you suggesting that the US invaded Iraq to EMPOWER Iran against the Saudis? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense given the Bush intent to attack Iran. And how does giving India more nuclear capability aid in non-proliferation or enable the US to prevent Pakistan from dumping nuclear weapons into the hands of Islamic jihadists should a coup or other radical political change occur in Pakistan?

You're just babbling nonsense here if you think to suggest that all of this crap Bush has done has some rational plan behind it. The only "rational" plan Bush has is 1) grab the oil; 2) line the pockets of my cronies; 3) dominate the ME for the benefit of the US and Israel and screw everybody else.

"Plus if things get bad in the ME, the global oil market is jeapordized which means the global economy would be jeapordized."

Right - so attacking Iran is the next useful step in preventing an oil crisis? Like Greg Palast believes, REMOVING Iraqi oil from the market was a major goal of the oil companies. Not only did the oil companies want to gain CONTROL of Iraqi oil if they could, but by destroying Iraq, they actually DID manage to "control" it - by taking if off the market. While not as valuable to the oil companies as actually controlling the oil directly, they achieved their goal.

And now they want to repeat the process in Iran.

"If the global economy tanks, you'd have many wars, not just one in Iraq. It wouldn't just be the oil companies' profits at risk."

First of all, the "global economy" doesn't exist. What you have are some major countries economies and some smaller regional economies. Actually, you have only ONE economy, but that is like saying you have only one "air". The air may be polluted here and there, but it's not polluted everywhere. No economy is ever "destroyed". It merely shifts from one level of effectiveness at solving people's needs to another level, or from one group of people benefiting to another group benefiting.

Just as there is no such thing as "the environment", and at the same time, there IS, the "global economy" is not in much danger of "tanking" in the sense any given national economy is.

An oil shock will damage the industrialized nations - but not to the degree than Britain attacks France. If the US attacks Iran, and cuts China off from Iranian oil and gas, China will retaliate by dumping the US dollar. China is not likely to militarily engage the US over Iran. Neither is Russia, despite having a much larger nuclear military capability than China. There is also no reason to believe there would be any wars in the ME over an oil shock. Who would attack whom and why?

But like I said, some people benefit from economic disaster. And in this case, those who will benefit from a continued war in Iraq and a new war in Iran are the oil companies and the war profiteers. These people don't give a damn if the rest of the US national economy tanks, or the middle class is squeezed into poverty.

And these are the people who pull Bush and Cheney's strings. And these are the people YOU are supporting.

Which again makes your "moral superiority" about your phony motivations for supporting the war a pathetic lie.

The problem with the idea that if we're just patient, Iraq MAY, SOMEDAY turn around is that that's not any way to justify going in in the first place let alone sticking around to find out. Everything that has gone wrong in Iraq was predicted, quite loudly, by many of the people who are still today calling for an end to this disaster. We were attacked then and are still being attacked now. We were right; the proponents of invasion were wrong - in just about EVERY DETAIL. We were NOT "greeted as liberators"; the invasion did NOT "pay for itself". There WERE no WMD, Saddam did NOT have a connection to Al Qaeda or 9-11 - how many times do the warmongers have to be wrong before they stop getting another chance? Before they admit they were wrong? And if they were wrong then and have been wrong all along - why should anyone think they might be right now?

Yes, Saddam was a bad man. But so is Kim Jong Il and the dictators of Myanmar and Castro. By many metrics, so are George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. We did not invade Iraq because Saddam was a bad man - we invaded because we were told he was a bad man who could directly threatan the US. Well, he couldn't. He never could. That was a lie. How many lies does Bush get to tell us before we stop listening to him? Obviously, for his dead-end Koolaid drinking enablers, as many as he wants. But that crowd has dwindled; most of the country wants this nightmare OVER. Telling us, wait, it might still work out, is like being a Mets fan. You have absolutely no evidence that it is ever going to work out. In fact, all the evidence is quite clear that it won't; you might as well give it up.


Comments closed October 22, 2007.

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