See here. This comes via Catherine. I think yelling back at these people is probably vital.
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Street Harassers: The Next Generation
01 Oct 2007 10:39 pm
Comments (133)
Yes, I think yelling at them will work.
(What a dipshit.)
Yelling at obnoxious kids for stuff like that will make their day. They want to make adults that have no authority or power of them mad, that's why they're doing it.
When it's a 12-year-old kid, maybe you should be the bigger person and just ignore the little dickhead.
Yes, what society needs is more confrontation to the point of near violence with 12 year olds.
I think yelling back at these people is probably vital. Kid yell at Grownup, Grownup must yell back at kid!
I'm just a caveman. Your world frightens and confuses me. But who is the street harasser here?
(Can't she just have tazed him with this Pink Lady Taze?)
That chick needs to chill out.
I do like the "little d..." retort, but probably not wise unless you have a good eye because that will just cause some hot-headed little punks to escalate.
Unless this is happening all the time to you, I don't really see how anyone can get that worked up about it, or how getting up worked about it a healthy in most or even safe reaction in some cases.
One rule of the street...don't act tough unless you are tough, and are prepared to be tough. If you're not worried about being tough and just chilling peacefully, a nice chuckle is all that is needed if you really think the harassment is about power (and not just appreciation).
Unless this is happening all the time to you
I believe the continuing message of the catcalling posts has been "It is happening all the time. Way more pervasively than men are aware of."
I believe the continuing message of the catcalling posts has been "It is happening all the time. Way more pervasively than men are aware of."
Would you explain the math to me?
men, you may be interested to know that, yes, this happens to women all the time. you might think that the constant, numbing repetition of catcalling would cause you to become inured to it, and not feel threatened when strangers invite you to suck their dicks in public, but somehow it never does. and when you realize that even male children feel they have the right to comment on your ass as you walk down the street, it's common to feel violated and angry. ordinarily, being an adult confers the privilege of no longer feeling threatened by roving groups of 12-year olds. being forced to confront the fact that your being female means that even male children regard your body as common property to be assessed with a critical eye as you attempt to go about your daily business--I'm having trouble stating the problem any more vividly than leblanc did, and if you are totally unable to empathize with her, I don't know that there's anything I can say to make you see it. why don't you just take it from me that having to steel yourself to hear comments like "suck my dick, bitch" every single motherfucking time you go outside to walk around in the city is degrading, enraging, and brings about a state of mind in which a simple kissy-kissy noise from some random dude is enough to inspire reveries of murderous violence.
Jimm: One rule of the street...don't act tough unless you are tough, and are prepared to be tough.
Since Leblanc is not inclined to just chill peacefully, I'll just go ahead and read this as a call to beat the shit out of twelve-year-old boys.
Ahem: FUCKIN' GO BELLE!
max
['Let's see what the rest of this crud is about.']
That was actually a warning because if you mouth off to the wrong teenager (or group of teenagers) while walking down the street in your neighborhood the situation could escalate (and bad things happen), and not necessarily on that particular occasion.
It really is best not to do what she did, either in terms of personal safety or sanity. If it was really about power, she could have laughed AT the kids, or just chuckled and showed it didn't give any power or import.
I'm obviously not a woman and don't know what the catcalling situation is like from inside out, and I don't do any of that myself, but the reality of this world is that there are men and boys who don't respect women, or at least their space or sensibilities...confrontation is really not a solution for most women and girls, especially running solo.
If these really were harmless 12 year-olds, then it's probably okay to lecture them or whatever, but it isn't likely going to have an impact, and even if you make one don't expect to see the change right there and then. Of course the kid's buddies said the same thing later, and the funny thing is that "power" isn't really part of this at all...I used to be a 12-year old kid and bodacious tatas were magical in our eyes then, and by evidence of all the ads you see showing the breastices off, a lot of men never outgrow that.
"suck my dick bitch" is on another level, and really seems to be on a different level than what leblanc described. one is a direct statement from one to another, though it's rarely an actual sexual message or proposition as such (that probably should be construed as a "power" phrase, just one that sounds tougher to the boy/man than "do my laundry"). the other is a kid admiring some bodacious tatas (in his eyes) and commenting about it to his buddies (or if a direct communication sort of a nervous little pubic kid's way of making a very weak sexual come-on, even too afraid to make the compliment directly).
having been a 12-year old boy as mentioned, admiring a woman's breasts is not intended to be an insult, or a denigration, or a power play - if anything, it's an acknowledgement of the power of those breasts over our imaginations.
of course, i wasn't at this particular incident, but there seems to be a big difference between an awestruck pubescent teen remarking on bodacious tatas (in his eyes) and shrinking away when confronted for rudeness, and a boy/man directly telling you to "suck their d..." or "get in the kitchen b....".
ordinarily, being an adult confers the privilege of no longer feeling threatened by roving groups of 12-year olds.
Not only that, but it rather confers a responsibility to act like an adult in public--which includes blessing kids out when they act like little shits and think they can get away with it because mom and dad aren't around.
I mean this is really ridiculous:
if you mouth off to the wrong teenager (or group of teenagers) while walking down the street in your neighborhood the situation could escalate (and bad things happen), and not necessarily on that particular occasion.
It really is best not to do what she did, either in terms of personal safety or sanity.
Come on. She's talking about 12 or 13 year old kids. You're advising a grown woman to be afraid of a kid that age? *And* you're saying it's not about power?
Also, the word is "breasts."
an awestruck pubescent teen remarking on bodacious tatas
Well, which is it? Dangerous street thug, or awestruck kid who didn't realize what he was saying?
Or maybe you might take the word of the woman who was there (and women who experience this kind of thing) that it was a smartass little punk trying to show off for his friends, and that embarrassing the hell out of him by chewing him out for it was exactly the right reaction.
You know, believe it or not, there are 13 year old boys that would not hesitate to drastically escalate the situation when confronted in such a way. I would also suggest that the type of 13 year old boys that would get rather more ah...aggressive are the same boys that make crude and loud declarations about "titties" in the first place...
Jimm: your childhood memories of awe at big breasts are clouding your judgment here. the interesting thing about being subjected to this sort of harassment every day is that it quickly becomes very clear that 1)it's a power play 2)it often is just a side-effect of a separate power play among the young men in question, or a sort of male bonding experience in which the woman's experience doesn't even figure as an afterthought 3) though there is a continuum of remarks ranging from "damn, you look fiiine" to "I'd like to fuck you till you bleed" it's all the same damn thing. you can dress this up as the by-product of youthful sexual exuberance all you want, but the fact is that making comments about a woman's looks/ass/tits as she walks down the street is a hostile act. you are imagining a world in which "complimentary" remarks or awe-struck wonder at the existence of female secondary sex characteristics can be set apart from overtly hostile and tasteless remarks like "suck my dick, bitch", but in the world we actually inhabit there are just at various places on a long sliding scale of hostile harassment. this is particularly easy to see when we consider what happens next. if some man's "you look gorgeous in that dress" doesn't get the response he demands (a coy smile) then it almost invariably gets followed with "fuck you, you stuck-up bitch". similarly, in online discussions of this reality, there are always men who will helpfully point out that the women should be grateful for this attention and that when they're a bit older and too hideous to elicit a response they'll think longingly of the days when random assholes used to say "hey baby" to them.
Now if she really wanted to teach this kid a lesson she would have walked up to him and said if you ever want to see, and touch big beautiful breasts like mine you better learn how to talk to a woman properly, saying nice titties will not get you the titties.
Twan, believe it or not, most adult women are pretty good at telling the difference between a genuine threat and garden-variety male posturing.
Anon: Yes, I think yelling at them will work. (What a dipshit.)
That would be why you put on such a fine display of manners?
They want to make adults that have no authority or power of them mad, that's why they're doing it.
Yep. And they'll keep right on doing it if there are no consequences.
That chick needs to chill out.
I find this hilarious since it is posted to a thread containing various invective and insults directed at a woman.
I do like the "little d..." retort, but probably not wise unless you have a good eye because that will just cause some hot-headed little punks to escalate.
That's why one makes sure to teach one's female associates and loved ones to fight, if they haven't learned yet.
Would you explain the math to me?
There are lots of women. When they are walking alone, certain types of men like to harass them verbally because they think they can get away with that shit and they like going after people weaker than they are. They learn that shit young and they keep it up because they can. Is sufficently simplified for you?
Of course the kid's buddies said the same thing later, and the funny thing is that "power" isn't really part of this at all...
On Planet Q way out in Gamma Quadrant maybe.
I used to be a 12-year old kid and bodacious tatas were magical in our eyes then, and by evidence of all the ads you see showing the breastices off, a lot of men never outgrow that.
Well, great. Spiffy. Wonderful. 12 year-old boys specialize in pushing boundaries, and whoa, wait for it, trying to become big and strong and powerful, while not understanding what they are actually doing at all. And that's fine as long as it gets channelled appropriately. One of the ways 12 year-olds learn what's appropriate is by getting smacked down for doing the inappropriate.
max
['So what's the problem?']
Dr Bitch, you'd be very surprised at how quickly a 13 year old boy can can change from an awkward, suburban twerp to a rather aggressive wife beater in training when a female confronts him in front of his friends. The garden-variety male posturing is basically the point. Chances are the boy in question made the hostile statement as a declaration of his vigorous, manly, heterosexuality in the first place. Stupid 13 year old boys tend to do things like this a lot in front of their peers.
Being confronted by the female that was the target of the comment in the first place would be seen as a direct assault on the vigorous, manly, heterosexuality that the boy is trying to project to his friends. There is a decent chance the boy could respond with a more aggressive brand of hostility...
Naturally this is all assuming that the female in question gouged the asshole level of the boy properly in the first place...
Anyway, the point is that yais, boys and especially men are very, very wrong to pull this crap. And I sincerely apologize on behalf of the male gender. But directly confronting it like that is pretty stupid. At best you might momentarily shame the offender, for all of 5 seconds. At worst you could get put yourself in a very dangerous situation.
I believe the continuing message of the catcalling posts has been "It is happening all the time. Way more pervasively than men are aware of."
...
There are lots of women. When they are walking alone, certain types of men like to harass them verbally because they think they can get away with that shit and they like going after people weaker than they are. They learn that shit young and they keep it up because they can. Is sufficently simplified for you?
Yes, that's what I thought. This is caused by a small minority of men. It's on a par with the same assholes that call people fags, or make ethnic remarks. It's disgusting, and it's threatening.
But since you agree it's performed by a minority of men, can we stop the shit about this being the Patriarchy or some sort of a problem with "men".
This is thuggery from assholes. Regardless of how sensitive and new agey we make everyone, they will still exist.
Indeed, the sensitivity practically oozes from your post, Caveman Lawyer. Would you mind pointing out exactly where it was asserted above that most or all men engage in street harassment?
Gosh, Twan, thanks so much for explaining to me how young men behave. Having had no actual experience with young men myself, and certainly not with young men showing off for their friends by harrassing girls or adult women, I'm just so naive about this kind of thing.
Caveman Lawyer, you know what makes chicks all angry at "men"? When some guy feels the need to criticize women's language in a post about street harassment followed by a bunch of comments telling women that they're overreacting/don't know how to handle it/scolding the kid makes *her* the harasser.
It's true that most men aren't like that. But the evidence of your won comments suggests that you are--at least when you're protected by the anonymity of a comment box.
No problem good doctor! Twan is always here to help a bitch!
There is a decent chance the boy could respond with a more aggressive brand of hostility...
There is an equally decent chance the boy could be a punk showing off for his friends, and pathetic no matter how much he might dream of having hidden kung fu assassin skillz.
Besides, if does he turn out to a super-secret badass on the order of Al-Qaeda's latest #3, who knows but that taking his crap might not Embolden him.
you'd be very surprised at how quickly a 13 year old boy can can change from an awkward, suburban twerp to a rather aggressive wife beater in training when a female confronts him in front of his friends.
Then again, Twan, you might be very surprised at how quickly a 13 year old boy can change from an awkward, suburban twerp to a tongue-tied awkward, suburban twerp choking back hot snotty tears of shame when a female confronts him in front of his friends.
[This is caused by a small minority of men]
and seemingly, made excuses for by a somewhat larger minority of men.
[you'd be very surprised at how quickly a 13 year old boy can can change from an awkward, suburban twerp to a rather aggressive wife beater in training when a female confronts him in front of his friends]
how surprised do you think we're all going to be when a tedious comments thread concern troll turns into an out and out misogynist when a female confronts him in front of his friends.
my estimate; not very.
have I ever told you that you're dreamy, dsquared?
Well Doctor Slack, I admit those are possibilities. Why don't you spend the next couple of weeks running up on gangs of 13 year old boys and documenting the results!
I am genuinely curious what kind of conclusion the data would give us. Thank you in advance!
Now, now, Belle, Max and Slack have also been deserving of Female Approval.
Max and Slack, as a Female, I Approve Your Actions in this thread.
Blah Blah Kitchen, Blah, Barefoot, Blah, Blah, She deserved it!
I figure this is more conducive to your psychological health. This way you don't have to waste any energy creating misogyny and applying it to random posters, such as me. I have learned my lesson. I will now be a good boy and not expect "totally brilliant" female lawyers to know better then to stoop to the level of 13 year old boys!
Anyway, kinichwa bitches. You guys feel free to put all those advanced degrees to good us by attacking the other evil concern trolls!
Now if she really wanted to teach this kid a lesson she would have walked up to him and said if you ever want to see, and touch big beautiful breasts like mine you better learn how to talk to a woman properly, saying nice titties will not get you the titties.
Posted by jbou | October 2, 2007 2:54 AM
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This is a problem which would be greatly improved if we had more transexuals strolling the streets who could confront wayward boys by walking up to them and whipping out Mr. Johnson and shaking it at them.
Now THAT would teach them a lesson.
Sweet! Now that I have Female Approval, the chicks will Totally Dig Me.
Why don't you spend the next couple of weeks running up on gangs of 13 year old boys and documenting the results!
I shall duly enlist Yo Momma to assist me, Twan. The good news is that I cab completely guarantee her safety.
Anyway, kinichwa [sic] bitches.
Agh! You're not allowed to ruin that Robyn track for me! Dirty pool, old man.
if some man's "you look gorgeous in that dress" doesn't get the response he demands (a coy smile) then it almost invariably gets followed with "fuck you, you stuck-up bitch".
this is a pretty jaded outlook on the male gender and one I'll have to disagree with..."some guys", and a very, very small minority at that, would "invariably" turn to the hostility/insult, and we're clearly running too far afield here with complimenting a woman on her clothes (very welcome in my experience) to admiring her body (depends on the woman and your familiarity but this is not universally wanted or reviled) to making unwanted comments about desiring her body (impolite and disrespectful, not to mention counterproductive as mentioned) to wanting to show off in front of your friends (typical for teens and unfortunately many grown men) to being hostile and treating women only as an object to making direct and obscene gender power plays...this is all the same continuum and should be treated as such?
There's a lot of sensible discussion in this thread and I don't mean to excuse any of these actions, just caution about hectoring random teenagers in the street while walking alone, since the teens may seem harmless but be anything but (and it only takes one time for things to go wrong), and if the kids really are innocent, try not to read power and hostility into every act, since it really could be just awkward appreciation at such an age, though I must admit that when I orginally read the article I thought she said she overheard the comment, and having just reread it the kid said it directly to her, so that changes my opinion of it (though not necessarily the confrontation part, but I'm a big city dweller, so if you live in a safe suburb, have at it but just be aware that 12-13 year old boys are not all innocent or unable to beat the hell out of you just because you're an "adult").
doctorslack, i think that if you are going around hoping to shame suburban twerps by 'speaking truth to power,' it really isnt very productive... considering how much testosterone is flowing through your average horny aggressive 13 year old, its just stupid to even try and if by some chance, you gotta a boy fragile enough for it to work well enough for him to cry snotty tears, I would venture to guess he's not your target demographic of future wife-beater...The most likely result of following the poster's advice is a stream of profanity from the confronted teen or pre-teen at least where I live given what I see when some adult confronts these little idiots about them being douchebags...its hardly misogyny to point this out but basic experience having to deal with our current crop of 12 year olds on a regular basis...
That's why one makes sure to teach one's female associates and loved ones to fight, if they haven't learned yet.
That's a brilliant idea, but usually the idea for teaching women martial arts and self-defense is to protect themselves from physical aggression and encounters, not encourage them to be more confrontational.
The same could be said for men.
In this particular scenario, it's pretty absurd to suggest that a rugged fight training should embolden a woman to confront a group of random rude teenage boys on the street (and again, I guess it depends on your "streets", but I would never advise my daughter to confront groups of boys/men in this manner).
A stream of profanity from a twelve year old? Oh no! That would be terrible!
Come on, guys, I love to nitpick as much as anyone, but it's clearly time to call it a day when you find yourself arguing that the streets are full of roving gangs of feral twelve year olds jacked up on moloko-plus and ready to rock your world with a little of the old ultra-violence... or worse, a four-letter word.
Before I check out, I do want to say that I respect and honor the desire to confront and hector the individuals responsible for this kind of rudeness, and if it's in your nature or culture that you can't help yourself from doing so, chances are you'll be okay and put a shock into the offenders, especially if your culture happens to be "New York" (joke), but in reality it's likely only to make the whole episode to the offenders that much more entertaining and story-telling material to their other buddies.
I'm trying to imagine a reality where men were the weaker gender and subject to sexual and/or physical assault at the hands of women, and where girls or women routinely commented on my ass or
told me to lick their vulvas.
I didn't realize this was so prevalent. I can't recall the last time I heard a man make a catcall, and I don't spend a lot of time around prepubescents.
Indeed, the sensitivity practically oozes from your post, Caveman Lawyer. Would you mind pointing out exactly where it was asserted above that most or all men engage in street harassment?
This post is a meme that has been tracking the feminist blogosphere the past few months.
It was seen in April ala Kathy Sierra, then in June at Ezra's and with Ann's, came around again early in September with Larry Craig (more on that in a bit), and it's back again.
In September when Larry Craig was arrested, Amanda Marcotte, et. al., did EXACTLY what they always claim the MENZ are doing. They made Larry Craig's arrest all about the WOMENZ. And how did they do that?
Amanda et. al., claimed that being propositioned in a restroom for sex with or without children present was actually not as harmful as someone whistling at a women on a street corner.
In other words, behavior against men was not as bad as speech against women. I do apologize, I cannot find where that thread appeared.
Over at Ezra's Neil, http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2007/09/what-to-do-abou.html, bought into that and agreed that the street corner harassers should be targeted by police and given a good talking to, but not threatened, or something like that. At the time, Amanda claimed she was being harassed 3-4 times in a 30 minute period, like, everyday.
So as I've said, it's a common meme that has been going around -- this is the first time truly that someone has admitted this is behavior from a small group of men. Most of the time we are told, that this is behavior of ALL men, Oh hey, here's an example over at whichever woman lawyer it was that started off tonight whine.
Here she is now: http://rockpaperswords.blogspot.com/2007/05/how-to-be-pick-up-artist.html
The main problem, ladies and gentlemen, is not that men approach women they find attractive. It is that 98% of the time, the way in which they approach is creepy, scary, weird, or inappropriate.
So is it a behavior from a small group of assholes, or is it a behavior from 98% of men even though as the whoever implied above, most men are unaware of it.
Then again, if 98% of men are doing something that one person says is bad, uh, maybe it's not the men's problem but the whiny lawyer's?
In this particular scenario, it's pretty absurd to suggest that a rugged fight training should embolden a woman to confront a group of random rude teenage boys on the street (and again, I guess it depends on your "streets", but I would never advise my daughter to confront groups of boys/men in this manner).
Posted by Jimm | October 2, 2007 4:11 AM
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Easy solution--give women handguns and liberal permission to use them on random teenage boys and other offensive males.
Go ahead, make my day, punk. Dirty Harriet.
I wonder if that would get us more of the NRA vote?
Shorter dsquared: I didn't read your comment.
So D, I know you like things short, but where did I make excuses for the kids? You mean where I said "this is thuggery by assholes?"
Or was it when I said, "can we stop the shit about this being the patriarchy or a problem with men?"
Cause I don't see either of those as making excuses for the behavior.
Yes, D, you are dreamy, or maybe just dreaming.
Dr Bitch, you'd be very surprised at how quickly a 13 year old boy can can change from an awkward, suburban twerp to a rather aggressive wife beater in training when a female confronts him in front of his friends.
Do WHAT? How the hell is that supposed to work?
"Well, see, back in the day, I told this bitch she had some nice ta-tas, and she totally gave me some mouth and my manhood shrank because it was ashamed, so now I gotta smack my ho up regular so I can repair the deep emotional wounds of mah chilehood."
ARE YOU FUCKIN' OUT OF YOUR TINY GODDAMN MIND?
Being confronted by the female that was the target of the comment in the first place would be seen as a direct assault on the vigorous, manly, heterosexuality that the boy is trying to project to his friends.
Pointing out that a boy is twelve cuts both ways. Vigourous manly heterosexuality is almost invariably not what they're up to.
There is a decent chance the boy could respond with a more aggressive brand of hostility...But directly confronting it like that is pretty stupid. At best you might momentarily shame the offender, for all of 5 seconds.
5 seconds is better than NO seconds; how exactly are they supposed to learn and you know, grow up?
At worst you could get put yourself in a very dangerous situation.
The point being, if these young snots are as somehow as sensitive and as explosive as nitroglycerine as you suggest, then a woman being harassed by them is already in a dangerous situation. There are neither cops (nor parents) on every corner to police these kids, and if they're doing something to you one had best figure out a way to get them to stop. As far as I have ever heard from anyone, anywhere, kids will continue pushing boundaries as long as they can get away with it because they're learning to be adults. The sooner the get stopped going in one avenue, the quicker they will try another direction.
As it stands, the notion that somehow a male behaving obnoxiously as child will somehow turn into a wife-beater because he was shamed into behaving, seems the same as saying a pyromanic will turn into an arsonist if he is prevented from setting fires wherever he wishes.
Yes, that's what I thought. This is caused by a small minority of men. It's on a par with the same assholes that call people fags, or make ethnic remarks. It's disgusting, and it's threatening.
So far, so good. The actions of said (not small) minority have rather large impacts.
But since you agree it's performed by a minority of men, can we stop the shit about this being the Patriarchy or some sort of a problem with "men".
Apparently you're commenting to some OTHER post.
This is thuggery from assholes. Regardless of how sensitive and new agey we make everyone, they will still exist.
You seem to be arguing with invisible people non-existent posts.
No problem good doctor! Twan is always here to help a bitch!
With your vigorous heterosexuality, no doubt, repaired from the shaming of your manhood.
Well Doctor Slack, I admit those are possibilities. Why don't you spend the next couple of weeks running up on gangs of 13 year old boys and documenting the results!
"WE ARE HOLDING ELVIS' BRAIN HOSTAGE ON PLANET ZORT. SURRENDER NOW!"
max
['Is there something in the water?']
Jimm: how often have you personally witnessed such situations? the maximum number of catcalling episodes (many of them involving a number of guys) I've experienced in a single day was 15, back when I lived in NYC and had to walk past a construction site to get to my college classes. I now live in Singapore which is strikingly free from this problem, but I have never spent more than a day or so walking around a US or european city without at least one instance of unwanted commentary. we're talking about many thousands of incidents, here. I respectfully invite you to take my word for it that if I do not react to a "hey beautiful" in whatever way the man deems appropriate he is more likely than not to follow up with some complaint, often involving the word bitch. you may regard someone saying "you look amazing in that dress", and then, when I ignore him "hey, why don't you lighten up" as harmless banter. if yesterday you had gotten "damn, nice ass" and "lighten up, bitch" from a different guy a block down, you might feel disinclined to draw fine distinctions between varying grades of assholes.
Christ, no wonder we look weak on national security. Our ranks are full of anonymous pussies who are hesitant to confront a fucking 12 year old.
Christ, no wonder we look weak on national security. Our ranks are full of anonymous pussies who are hesitant to confront a fucking 12 year old.
Posted by gswift | October 2, 2007 4:30 AM
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First they came for the ill mannered 12 year olds, and I said nothing.
Then they came for those who used the word 'pussies' in a pejorative sense, and I said nothing....
I'm trying to imagine a reality where men were the weaker gender and subject to sexual and/or physical assault at the hands of women, and where girls or women routinely commented on my ass or
told me to lick their vulvas
thank god, I thought that was just me.
but where did I make excuses for the kids?
on the internet, dickhead. In actual fact, Mister Reading Comprehension "Look At My Exact Words" Guy, I think you'll find that I referred to "a somewhat larger minority of men", rather than specifically to you, a fact that I would not have mentioned but that you were the one who decided to be so very, very perfucketysnickety about precise reading.
However, I will go along with the broad historical sweep, step up to the plate and say "by jiminy yes! I do indeed think that you're making excuses".
Then again, if 98% of men are doing something that one person says is bad, uh, maybe it's not the men's problem but the whiny lawyer's
phrase seem familiar, dickhead? See, it is not exactly hard to tell when someone like you, or your mate "Twan", is starting off trying to act all ohmigodhowawfulthatistoagentlemanlikeme, but on a curve that will basically end up in calling somebody a bitch.
So D
what's my name, fool
I do agree with Gswift that it's very interesting how many men[1] think that there's something actually *frightening* about twelve year olds, and that adult women need to be scared of them. I'd be interested in seeing how far we could push this upper bound downward - ought she to have refrained from scolding a six-year-old?
[1]normal internet caveat applies
Jeez D, what a heap of straw you are.
First, I didn't call anyone a bitch, and until you see that I do, take it, and shove it. Just because I disagree with aspects of how the lawyer dealt with the 12 year old and interpreted his behavior and whined about society, doesn't make me a misogynist. So fuck you.
Second, you quote me, but then I am being persnickety in thinking you are referring to me? Given your reputation in the blogosphere for originating shorters, I had thought you weren't a bullshit artist. Are you a lawyer too? Because your argument is as stupid and disingenuous as the original lawyer's who claimed that at 25 she was much too old, shockingly too old for a 12 year old to be thinking about her sexually. So it makes me think you must be some form of lawyer asshole.
What's your name? Fucktard seems to fit.
Blah Blah Kitchen, Blah, Barefoot, Blah, Blah, She deserved it!
Do you have a woman to smack around Twan, or are you still looking and failing?
I figure this is more conducive to your psychological health. This way you don't have to waste any energy creating misogyny and applying it to random posters, such as me. I have learned my lesson. I will now be a good boy and not expect "totally brilliant" female lawyers to know better then to stoop to the level of 13 year old boys!
I like how they became 13. Are you 13, Twan? Did a woman shame your tiny manhood?
Anyway, kinichwa bitches. You guys feel free to put all those advanced degrees to good us by attacking the other evil concern trolls!
Slice it as thin as you want, it's still baloney, homeboy.
max
['And not the good kind, neither.']
Just because I disagree with aspects of how the lawyer dealt with the 12 year old and interpreted his behavior and whined about society, doesn't make me a misogynist.
The manner of that disagreement is kind of telling.
Just because I disagree with aspects of how the lawyer dealt with the 12 year old and interpreted his behavior and whined about society, doesn't make me a misogynist
you are quite right, the causation is almost certainly the other way round.
hey, I just found myself in possession of an opinion about you, and specifically the way you're dealing with harassment and whining about it? Wanna hear?
This is one of the more ridiculous comment threads I've seen. "Street harassment isn't about power, it's about admiration, and you shouldn't talk back to a 12-year-old because then he'll fuck you up for real." Where do these fucktards come from?
Dr Bitch, you'd be very surprised at how quickly a 13 year old boy can can change from an awkward, suburban twerp to a rather aggressive wife beater in training when a female confronts him in front of his friends.
We now know whom to blame when this guy turns out to be a lifelong jerk and a wifebeater.
M. LeBlanc!
SHe will never be able to undo the harm she's done to this formerly-innocent child who dared to give verbal expression to his deep reverence for boobs.
Where doe Matt get these guys?
I'd be interested in seeing how far we could push this upper bound downward - ought she to have refrained from scolding a six-year-old?
If she runs across this six-year-old I'm asking her--nay, begging her--to run in the opposite direction.
And just in case you think I'm the worst kind of sexist, I'll have you know that I believe any man should run away from this 12-year-old girl.
America's streets are dangerous places nowadays. When confronted with an ill-behaved child you never know if you're dealing with just a run-of-the-mill brat or (more likely) a hideous and bottomless evil, appallingly incarnated in the form of an innocent child. It's best to just resign yourself to a life of fear and frustration, since sassing back to Satan or the Antichrist will only provoke projectile vomiting and/or a supernatural Rottweiler attack.
Wow, I'm never the one accused of getting "too feminist" in these kinds of situations but geez, I would like to apologize on behalf the majority of the male posters in this thread for their sexism and denseness. Judging by the comments, you'd think this was Little Green Footballs or something.
This thread is useless without a pic.
I knew it! The libruls want to turn our boys into sissies.
I've gotta say, the ladies have really knocked the heck out of you guys with your macho, I can empathize crap you're trying to hand them.
I was taught to appreciate women the right way, to come to their defense (without demeaning your strength, ladies, because you DO have it) and helping teach the little assholes (and the old little assholes, too) what manners mean.
If it escalates, so be it. Wouldn't be the first time.
Is it possible that yet another instance of the trivial callousness of strangers on a public street does not contain a profound moral lesson?
I've gotta say, the ladies have really knocked the heck out of you guys with your macho, I can empathize crap you're trying to hand them.
I was taught to appreciate women the right way, to come to their defense (without demeaning your strength, ladies, because you DO have it) and helping teach the little assholes (and the old little assholes, too) what manners mean.
If it escalates, so be it. Wouldn't be the first time.
I was a bit thrown by this post (in which the first paragraph seems to criticize the attitude on display in the second and third paragraphs) until I realized that it sounds great if you imagine John Wayne saying it.
I don't really care how I was raised. I don't rise to anyones defense unless I'm involved with them. I'm not expending any resources are energy defending someone else's girlfriend. That's their job, not mine. Never help a woman unless you're sleeping with her, otherwise you're just opening yourself up to being taken advantage of. To most women, kindness is weakness and you're better off not forgetting that. Women hate weak men.
To put it another way, women are only interesting in assholes. Is it really a shock that so many of us are complete dicks then?
...confrontation is really not a solution for most women and girls, especially running solo....You know, believe it or not, there are 13 year old boys that would not hesitate to drastically escalate the situation when confronted in such a way.
Shorter Concern Trolls: "You would be much safer in a burka, accompanied at all times by a male relative! Whiny! Bodacious! Feminazi!"
Why was a sexual remark from a 12 year old humiliating? I can understand the anger and the subsequent scolding of him, but where's the humiliation part?
I'm not good at snappy comments, not that I've even had to deal much with this issue for a while (Belle must be a hottie, or generally friendly looking--I refuse to make eye contact with anyone and that works pretty well), but I think at 12 or 13, you'd still have some chance at shaming them--as the author of the original tried to do. They probably still have the specter of squirming if a mother or grandmother or aunt caught them doing such a thing in the back of their minds.
I wonder, though, what is the ideal level of interaction between strangers on a street? I'd say no interaction at all is just fine, but I'm kind of unfriendly. Are you allowed to say something to a stranger, as long as it's not about that person's person? I think just as a matter of etiquette, it ought to be clear that shouting out comments about someone's appearance is not the thing to do in our society at this time.
Why was a sexual remark from a 12 year old humiliating?
Because getting sexually harassed is humiliating. Your question makes no sense. It is ok if I find sexual remarks from 20 year olds humiliating? 50? Or should I just accept that they are in awe of my "bodacious tatas" and skip along my merry way, delighting in the fact that men in the world find me fuckable?
...confrontation is really not a solution for most women and girls, especially running solo....You know, believe it or not, there are 13 year old boys that would not hesitate to drastically escalate the situation when confronted in such a way.
Geez, just suck his cock, already. Chillax.
To put it another way, women are only interesting in assholes. Is it really a shock that so many of us are complete dicks then?
So how's that strategy working out for you?
Because getting sexually harassed is humiliating.
I don't understand the humiliation part. I can understand the anger part -- as indicated in the post.
Or should I just accept that they are in awe of my "bodacious tatas" and skip along my merry way, delighting in the fact that men in the world find me fuckable?
So, you scolded the little weasel. I still don't understand why you felt humiliated. You didn't do anything shameful.
I still don't understand why you felt humiliated.
It's humiliating when people treat you badly and expect to get away with it. The point of talking back is to avoid that humiliation. Humiliation != guilt.
You didn't do anything shameful.
That's not what humiliation is about. Maybe engaging this point is a lost cause, but I will try. You know those naked dreams, where you are naked in a public place, and everyone is looking at your naked body? That's what being a woman in your twenties (or teens, or thirties, or forties, or fifties) in a big city feels like. Everyone is looking at your body, all the time, and saying things about it.
It's humiliating when people treat you badly and expect to get away with it. The point of talking back is to avoid that humiliation. Humiliation != guilt.
I obviously don't understand humiliation. I regularly feel terrible over personal failings, but I can't imagine feeling bad over someone else's.
I have a videotape of Jeffrey Davis taking a dump.
I have a videotape of Jeffrey Davis taking a dump.
Thanks. I don't need support here.
This is hilarious mental gymnastics. The claim is 'it's no big deal,sweetcheeks, they're just into your bodacious tatas, they're just kids, take it easy' but 'oh my god, you spoke up to them! they could have killed you!'
Bravo, kids. Your twisty routine almost managed to make your insistence that m. leblanc just accept street harassment sound like concern for her safety but sweet angels did you botch the landing.
Why were you hiding behind that door Jeffrey?
Empathy:
1. The intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
Sadly, this seems to be in short supply in some quarters. I think sexual harassment and its impact is genuinely difficult to understand for many men, and this thread tends to confirm that.
Put yourself in their shoes guys.
Jeffrey, it's humiliating to have someone be deliberately insulting or overly familiar in the expectation that there's nothing you'll be able to do about it. Your failure to understand this show a very limited life experience on your part.
I think Twan should be at the next Unfogged meetup in DC. Good times.
I regularly feel terrible over personal failings, but I can't imagine feeling bad over someone else's.
Dear, naive Jeffrey. Humiliation isn't "feeling bad over someone else's" failings. It is the painful realization that you are helpless to prevent mistreatment, and that others recognize your helplessness. That's why speaking out is sometimes a cure for humiliation. Feeling terrible over personal failings, on the other hand, is what we like to call "guilt", or in some cases "shame".
Perhaps you are one of these "bots" the young people talk about so much, and never had a childhood. Most people who have been children understand the concept of humiliation very well.
"...until I realized that it sounds great if you imagine John Wayne saying it"
I didn't think of balancing the statements with that result in mind, BC. But thanks for the kind words, pardner.
Humiliate:
1. to reduce to a lower position in one's own eyes or others' eyes : MORTIFY
I'd say that counts. I think Jeffrey was imagining humiliation as feeling bad for something you are personally to blame for. Which, obviously, she wasn't. But, humiliation and shame go beyond that.
Guilt amounts to feeling bad because of something you've done.
Shame is feeling bad about who you are.
One wouldn't feel guilty because some unrelated kid made an inappropriate comment. One could feel shame at being exposed as vulnerable, weak or helpless (humiliated).
"...Never help a woman unless you're sleeping with her, otherwise you're just opening yourself up to being taken advantage of. To most women, kindness is weakness and you're better off not forgetting that. Women hate weak men."
Frankly, I don't walk around the streets in a constant state of arousal, so I could care less about whether a person I help thinks I'm sexually 'weak.' You may be a pretty lonely person if that's what you think of women. The point is...the point is that you can be friendly to people in what has been considered ways that are non-threatening and have been culturally acceptable for hundreds of years. A slimebag-in-training that says things like have been represented here (including some of the commenters) aren't worth a dry weasel fart, and they don't get a pass.
I can't believe that CL doesn't understand this-- fine, maybe I can believe it.
For all women to experience a street harrassment, or being hit on in a creepy way, doesn't mean all, or most, or more than a tiny minority of men are doing it, if that tiny minority are doing it A LOT. All his posts on this thread seem to reflect a total inability to grasp this fact.
There, CL. There's the "math" you were asking for. I hope that wasn't too complicated for you.
women are only interesting in assholes
Patently untrue. Often, they're interesting in the open air.
Reverse the sex of the lawyer.
It's not a 25 year old tata'd woman lawyer but a 25 year old gay male lawyer.
A similar interaction occurs. "Faggot!" The kid is scolded by the lawyer. A fight ensues. Who is responsible?
Reverse the sex of both parties. Perhaps the races too. It's not a 25 year old tata'd woman lawyer but a 25 year old straight male lawyer and a 12 year old black girl. "Whitey!" "Asshole!" (Don't laugh, I've seen this exact situation occur while walking at the Santa Monica Pier.)
A similar interaction occurs. The kid is scolded by the lawyer. A fight ensues. Who is responsible?
Society seems to overlook a woman's scolding of other people for their bad behavior in a way that it would not overlook a male doing the exact same thing.
Society seems to tell women that of course their desire to get all violent is natural if not good. But society also seems to tell men that such a desire is unnatural or at the very least very bad.
This doesn't seem to be a function of the size or actual threats of the various parties.
Also, if this wasn't one lone 12 year old kid, if this were two or three 14 year old kids, would your advice be the same?
Matt thinks the young woman lawyer and/or Matt should yell at the kids.
A month or so ago, Neil the Ethical werewolf thought that cops should spend their time talking to these kids about their behaviors. "I'd love to see police confront more guys who make catcalls at women on the street. It probably isn't even the kind of thing where you'd need a lot of disorderly conduct arrests or anything like that -- I'm sure it'd do a lot just to have an officer of the law sternly telling offenders that their behavior isn't acceptable."
So you folks advocate violent encounters and state suppression of speech.
You are suddenly appalled that kids are acting like dicks and want society to excuse your going apeshit on the little assholes.
In the meantime, in our schools and our homes, most of you would be appalled with corporal punishment, paddling in the schools, spanking at home. You would probably be against uniforms at school, or dress codes.
Many of you as women would definitely make the statement that you should be able to wear anything you want to wear and that that in no way excuses anyone else's behavior with regards towards looking at you as a sexual object. "We dress hot for ourselves and our girlfriends and it doesn't give you any right to look and stare at us."
If people disagree here, you say, "Matt sure gets all types! Look at all the women haters here!" Instead of understanding that Matt's blog is more of a generalized blog and what Matt gets is more people representative of society and what the women lawyers are getting on their blogs is a more uniform, not so diverse crowd. Not woman hating, just disagreeing.
We see a lot of the same old tactics here. Taking comments out of context. Calling for people to agree that you are allowed to be violent. Smearing people that have not said what you claim they have said.
I am glad that no one here came by to defend anyone's right to free speech, even ugly free speech.
It would have been a shame for someone to say something like "I disagree with the young fuckhead, but I will fight to the death for his right to say that."
Instead what we hear is "I am so glad you yelled at the kid, I agree this sort of stuff makes me want to punch people."
You guys are truly beautiful people.
Kali, two points were made:
1) All women experience this. A lot!
2) Most men aren't aware of this.
The orig lawyer made a statement in an earlier blog that represents a lot of the speech that goes on at various blogs, what she said was that:
3) 98% of men are creeps when they approach women.
1 & 2 above tell me there is a minority of men engaged in this behavior.
3) By itself suggests that the orig woman lawyer is not calibrated. If 98% of men are doing something she considers creepy, she may need her creep sensors adjusted.
While most men are not terribly aware of sexual harassment, believe it or not, most men know lots of women, as sisters, friends, relatives, coworkers.
If sexual harassment of the Amanda Marcotte claim (2-3 times in a 30 minute period EVERY time she goes out) is occurring, it seems at odds to many men that none of the women they know state how they are experiencing this.
I would say that men are not the insensitive creepy assholes but are rationally based.
If in their experience none to few of the women say they are experiencing this, and then some women they do not know say that ALL women are experiencing this, what is more rational for them to believe?
My experience as a man is that there is a minority of men AND women that act as complete assholes in social and public spaces. They threaten. They taunt. They don't give a shit. They will harass for whatever reason men AND women that walk past them. SMALLER people, people judged to be WEAKER, will be harassed more than LARGER people or people judged to be STRONGER.
There is definitely sexist attacks to be made. As well as attacks based on perceived gender preferences, or religious status, or whatever they fuck they feel like attacking you on.
It is rarely the case that yelling at the attackers is considered acceptable.
In this case it seems acceptable because the kid was only 12 and not deemed a threat.
But in that case all you're telling me is that it is okay for the more powerful person to place the less powerful person in their place.
It's still all just power politics. Who is the bigger ape.
I'm just a caveman.
Even if it's a cop doing it, "sternly telling offenders that their behavior isn't acceptable" is not "state suppression of speech." Are you really a lawyer?
I do agree with Gswift that it's very interesting how many men[1] think that there's something actually *frightening* about twelve year olds, and that adult women need to be scared of them.
It's funny how ostensibly liberal blog comment threads go south so quickly, throwing out straw men and greatly misrepresenting posts, almost as if we were over at a place we'd expect that, like Little Green Footballs or something.
I've been called a concern troll in this thread too which is silly. It's so easy just to throw this anonymous ridicule around and "gang up" on dissenting ideas or opinions but everything I said in this thread was put forth clearly and the main point is laid out clearly in the beginning.
If you live in a safe neighborhood with safe teens and you're a woman walking alone on the street create confrontations with them to your hearts delight, but I'm a big city guy and can tell you that these teens aren't all innocent, and you can't always gauge how old they are or their level of criminal mind.
In the end, I honor the desire to want to "strike back" or have a "teaching moment" at this rude behavior, and actually liked some of the clever retorts (which are much more humiliating and don't "feed" the rude boys), but there are very few mothers and fathers who would ever teach their daughter to create this confrontation by herself in the street, so unless we are talking about truly and obviously pre-pubescent kids, and this is mainly a "scolding", I'm just saying that my opinion is that reacting in a confrontational way is unwise.
It's also unproductive as mentioned because if you make a scene than the provocation becomes ever more merriment for the harassers, as well as his friends, when a cool smirk, chuckle or joke shows that the barb didn't get through and "this chick is tough beans".
Still, like I also said you will get away with this confrontation most of the time, even though it's really just for you and not a "teaching moment", especially if you're dealing with teens (plenty in juvenile hall for all kinds of crimes), but it's not really a universal solution is it, unless you plan on doing this to men as well, and if you wouldn't, but would only confront a teen, or a kid, it seems passive-aggressive, and passive-aggressive solutions aren't solutions when we're talking about this seemingly universal behavior which has been going on forever (not a justification, just the reality).
Perhaps the main problem is that so many people including women are so vacuumed up in their cars sometimes that they forget that being hyper-sensitive (or even sensitive) on the street is not a natural adaptation when dealing with the random minority of idiots everyone meets out there (and women unfortunately have to deal with it a lot more in more humiliating ways).
Anyhow, my dissertation is over. I'm not a woman, and don't have this experience, and can try to honor the feelings aroused at such harassment but really my focus is on being able to adapt to unwanted, troubling situations with chill, with grace, with peace of mind, with humor, while also being wise and avoiding behavior that "could" get one in trouble down the road, especially since these confrontations usually "feed" the rudies, not "correct" them.
As in any case, this is my honest opinion, I don't ultimately care if you want me to see it a different way, or your way, because this is the way I see it, and you can share with me your perspective, and I will listen, and perhaps it will alter my experience, but don't attack me or call me names because we don't see it the same way, because we haven't had the same experience, and please don't misrepresent what I'm saying either.
Thank you.
when a cool smirk, chuckle or joke shows that the barb didn't get through and "this chick is tough beans"
In my experience, laughing at harassment invites escalation.
Actually, a cop "sternly telling offenders that their behavior isn't acceptable" most certainly is state suppression of speech. All you have to do to prove this is change the speech that the cops are "sternly" condemning to speech you approve of instead of speech you don't approve of.
Caveman Lawyer is talking sense. Some people are assholes. But overgeneralizing is a falacy.
Am I the only adult male here who's been mocked by teenage girls? Boo hoo. Poor me. Yes, mean people do indeed suck. But such is life. Confronting such people is generally counter productive.
Also, our young feminist lawyer certainly lost any moral higher ground she might have held once she started swearing at a 13-year-old boy. You'd think a lawyer might have a better hold on her temper in the middle of such a confrontation.
Actually, a cop "sternly telling offenders that their behavior isn't acceptable" most certainly is state suppression of speech. All you have to do to prove this is change the speech that the cops are "sternly" condemning to speech you approve of instead of speech you don't approve of.
If that's your case, you've proved my point.
Speaking to the "obnoxious come-on" issue rather than the "borderline illegal street harassment" one -- some men act like assholes because some women like assholes.
Back before we all got old and gray, I had a couple of friends who were very succesful pick-up artists. They were constantly using all kinds of cheesy and inapproriate lines on women in bars, at the supermarket, on the subway, or wherever. And here's the thing: it worked. 99% of the time they'd be rejected out of hand. But they threw enough of this rap out there that they'd consistantly find the 1% of women freaky enough to fall for it. It's like telemarketing. The one idiot who gives in makes the vast majority who hang up on you worthwhile. They weren't going to find a meaningful relationship with a self-respecting woman this way. But that wasn't what they were looking for.
I'm not defending this behavior. Rudeness is rudeness. I'm merely noting that it does have a rational basis.
Yelling "suck my dick" at women on the street, on the other hand, I've never understood. Do these guys think the woman is going to stop and tell them to whip it out? Has this ever happened anywhere?
I'm not a lawyer at all. I'm not a Caveman either.
But read the Neil thread to get into the particulars of why cops enforcing speech codes or having stern talking to's is a very bad idea and is state suppression of speech.
Scenario: A cop sees/hears a 13-yr-old boy yell something obnoxious at a woman who walks by. The cop takes the kid aside and gives him a deserved stern talking to.
Are you really going to tell me this is (a) a very bad idea and (b) state suppression of speech?
On second thought, after a good shower, scold the little shit as long as your in a safe place (people around, before dark, etc.). I was kinda imagining the worst-case scenario (noone around, after dark, etc.), but just keep in mind the "scolding" is really more for you than the rudies (i.e. no teaching moment likely, just more hilarity for them).
I still think a clever witty retort or put down is the best reaction (or no reaction beyond a smirk or head nod denoting "pathetic"), especially when dealing with garden-variety street harassers.
Don't give power to the rudies on the street, don't ever let them think they're getting to you. It could be argued that's what they want...
Good god, are you back for more, you dickhead?
Scenario: A cop sees/hears a 13-yr-old boy yell something obnoxious at a woman who walks by. The cop takes the kid aside and gives him a deserved stern talking to.
Sounds okay to me...for any citizen to do. The cop obviously can't forcibly take the kid aside or arrest him though, so other than the uniform he would just be one of us. It could be argued this is what Leblanc did, so I'll give her credit for that even though still not thinking it very productive or dignified.
Good god, are you back for more, you dickhead?
I hope this wasn't addressed at me...ironic communication for a thread about dealing with rudeness and respect.
God, you people on this thread are amazing with your faux concern for me. Look, I'm not trying to be the best feminist or the best lawyer or the best person in the world. I got harrassed, and it pissed me off, and I reacted. The fact that this is apparently so problematic and unwise boggles the mind.
still not thinking it very productive or dignified.
It was terribly productive. It made me feel better. And as for dignity, well, I associate dignity with self-respect, and I think that not letting people comment on my body parts rudely in public and get away with it is great for my self-respect.
Help help! D is being mean to me!!! Waaaahhhhh! Won't someone taze D before he takes someone's comments out of context again and blames them for it?
I am so afraid D is going to shorter me, and well, he's soooo dreamy!
m. leblanc, let me ask you a question or two.
How old or big would the kid have had to be before you would NOT have scolded him?
How many kids would have had to have been present before you would NOT have scolded him?
Trying to step very lightly, assuming the kid was African American and you are not, would you still have scolded him?
Were you bravely confronting an asshole? Or were you just playing the power bullying game this guy started? If the latter, does your winning at this round against someone that was not threatening of you deserve public commendation?
It was terribly productive. It made me feel better. And as for dignity, well, I associate dignity with self-respect, and I think that not letting people comment on my body parts rudely in public and get away with it is great for my self-respect.
Fair enough. I actually acknowledged that a few times, that it was good for you more than a teaching moment for the rudies. If it makes you feel better...
But this isn't just a single reaction...you prefaced your whole post by saying you're adopted a policy of confrontation to disrespectful speech.
I'm just saying that approach is likely counter-productive, as it gives them the attention they are seeking, sorta validates they're not just speaking to the ether, and it might even be unsafe if you rub up against the wrong rudies.
So to make yourself feel better...go for it and stay safe. To think you're fixing the problem...not so much. I don't know you and am not showing any "faux" concern, just speaking in general peaceful principles.
Also, you cussed the kid out, so if that's your policy of confrontation against disrespectful speech, not "brilliant".
the thing is, you've now given up all pretence of concern (as predicted) and are now claiming that street harassment is carried out by "a minority of men and women", and raised a suggestion that there is a free speech issue in allowing twelve year olds to say "big titties" to passing women. Added to the fact that your first and last instinct was to whine "I'm being taken out of connnnntext!", (and your attempt at humour doesn't really cover this up; you're whining), I'd say that you've pretty much embarrased yourself so far. The proof of your failure is that it's more or less impossible to work out what the hell point you were trying to make, or what argument you were trying to establish, other than a fairly content-free insult at M. Leblanc based on a slightly stalkerish trawl through her blog which picked up a remark which offended (poor ickle) you about inexpert pickup lines.
If the cavemen were anything like you, dinosaurs would still rule the earth. Give up, go away, and change your pseudonym for your next outing, as some of us have long memories. You don't even troll well, as your resort to whining at 1:52pm shows that you do actually care that you lost the argument.
ps, what's my name, fool?
Exhibit A
Jeffrey ... Your failure to understand this show a very limited life experience on your part.
Exhibit B
Dear, naive Jeffrey. ... Perhaps you are one of these "bots" the young people talk about so much
World enough and time.
Were you bravely confronting an asshole? Or were you just playing the power bullying game this guy started? If the latter, does your winning at this round against someone that was not threatening of you deserve public commendation?
I'll take "Rhetorical questions with obvious answers" for $50, please Jeff.
m. leblanc, let me ask you a question or two.
How old or big would the kid have had to be before you would NOT have scolded him?
How many kids would have had to have been present before you would NOT have scolded him?
Trying to step very lightly, assuming the kid was African American and you are not, would you still have scolded him?
1. It is my current policy to yell at people who make comments about my tits or other body parts.
2. The kid was probably with 5 or 6 other kids as it was (I mentioned a group in my post, although I didn't say how many). So, as far as I can tell, a group is better. More opportunity to embarrass the kid.
3. Yes. In this case, the kid was Hispanic, not that it matters.
What the fuck is your point? Am I supposed to be afraid of children? Whether they're 12, 15, or 50, I'm not afraid to tell someone who feels they have a right to comment on my body to fuck off. All my experience shows that people are mostly a) surprised, and b) embarrassed. Once you've been a woman, been harrassed, tried this tactic and endured violence, come back and talk to me.
Otherwise, you guys can stop worrying about little old me.
M. Leblanc,
Are you aware of the "wilding" trend common among young African American and Latino tweens and teens in places like New York in the last decade? This involved actual grabbing of breasts, asses, and crotches. If all you have to worry about now is comments, perhaps this is a sort of progress.
All my experience shows that people are mostly a) surprised, and b) embarrassed.
Keep playing the odds...it's like Russian Roulette with a hundred or thousand round chamber.
Maybe you "should" sign up for some of those martial arts classes, though it won't do you much good if you get shot or stabbed for disrespecting a hotheaded punk with a criminal mind in front of his homies (not talking about the 12 year-old anymore, since you claim to do this to anyone now).
I accidentally disrespected a gangster once in Venice Beach and not more than a week or two later that dude found out where I live (probably by following me on a later day when I was walking around). I invited him to join me at the picnic table where I was sitting for a few beers, and we worked it out, since it really wasn't an intended insult, and we got to a level of respect eye-to-eye, but there are vindictive people out there and the best way to carry oneself in public is always with respect, both self-respect and other-respect (and especially respect for difference), and to do one's best to stay keen to this and not deviate (and respect should not be considered balance of power either with real bombs or just verbal bombs, and you might think you "mostly" have this balance of power wired until you confront someone who proves you wrong, and this isn't a "points" game).
Ah, thank god someone (Harry) finally pointed out what's really behind this concern over LeBlanc's safety.
LeBlanc, don't you know that those people are dangerous?!?
Dear CL, scolding a child for being rude is not violence. Duh.
Close to two decades ago I was walking down a street in Chicago when a boy, probably about 12 ran up behind me and hit me in the back and then ran back to his friends. It is an irritating feeling, it is not clear whether it is worse to ignore it or to try to do something about it. And being male I don't get this kind of thing very often. (In fact in that form it is the only time I remember. More often I have had people in trucks seeing that I am not paying attention and yell something to startle me).
The dynamic of these things seems to be the same. Someone in a group tries to impress the other members of the group by performing an act of cowardice. And certainly in all of these cases what one sees is bizarrely cowardly. Action taken with the protection of a group in circumstances in which the target can't fight back. Amazingly, I think that the person who does the act of cowardess manages to elevate their status among their peers.
As someone who has such things happen a best once every few years it has never been worth my while to develop a policy. But I can see why someone who was the target of such acts repeatedly would get some relief from venting at the cowards.
That people would be critical of the venting does seem rather bizarre. Such cowardly behavior is not really one that we men have to protect. And in fact girls seem to be capable of the same kinds of pack behaviors as well. The essential features seem to be that someone from a completely safe position makes someone lone individual uncomfortable for the sake of looking adult to his or her friends. I am not sure there is any better reaction than an authentic "wow you are a loser."
It is certainly true that if you get angry, you are doing what they want, which is making themselves feel important by showing they can get a reaction out of you.
Are you aware of the "wilding" trend common among young African American and Latino tweens and teens in places like New York in the last decade? This involved actual grabbing of breasts, asses, and crotches. If all you have to worry about now is comments, perhaps this is a sort of progress.
Just look at what happened to Agent Starling and Sayid when they tried to take a walk in Central Park. If FBI field agents and ex-members of the Iraqi special forces aren't safe, what hope is there for the rest of us?
Seriously, though, if it ever comes to pass that "tweens" can intimidate me I'd rather just mouth off until they're provoked into beating me to death with the business-ends of their brightly-colored tween-centric cell phones, or strangling the life out of me with the earphone cords of their adorable little tween-approved iPods. Better a gruesome (and slightly hilarious) death on a city street than submission to the tyranny of an ill-mannered 12-year-old's idiocy.
There've been a couple statements along the lines that it's somehow wrong to fight back or stick up for yourself when you know you're not in any real danger, if you're not going to go all the way and always throw caution to the wind even when the situation is clearly a threatening one. I'm not sure why--it seems like a good policy to defend your honor/dignity/right to walk down a street when and where you can, and silently retreat to safety only when safety is actually an issue. That general policy serves people well in places that are orders of magnitude more dangerous than gentrifying neighborhoods in big American cities.
The argument that everyone (or at least the delicate/the weak/the elderly/the female among us) should eat shit 100 percent of the time, to guard against that tiny possibility that a group of pre-teens will suddenly attack like a pack of feral dogs, ignores the fact that most folks can judge pretty well for themselves when they're in a dangerous situation.
there are vindictive people out there and the best way to carry oneself in public is always with respect, both self-respect and other-respect
I think the point some of the women have made is that it's actually not possible to carry oneself with self-respect while knuckling under to inappropriate/crude/offensive comments that are apparently not at all uncommon. Swearing at pre-teens may be over-kill, but I think some kind of stern rebuke is necessary. Always living in fear that the worst-case-scenario is about to come down is no way to live--not anywhere, and certainly not in relatively safe American cities. People get by with more dignity in much more treacherous environments.
"LeBlanc, don't you know that those people are dangerous?!?"
Bitch, what's your Ph.D. in, politically correct self-delusion? It's your life; feel free to ignore obvious trends and correlations and risk it.
Idiots though they may be, I think this young, "brilliant" lawyer is making more out of this than there is. A large number of 12-13 year old males are going to behave idiotically and cause havok for undeserving others across all cultures and regions, everywhere.
Is it fair? No.
Does it suck that she has to put up with this while, say, the guys from Gold's Gym won't? Yes.
Unfortunately, there's nothing to be done about it. These kids won't listen to lectures and the only disincentive that would work on them is the credible (or credibly perceived) threat of physical harm or imprisonment.
But do we really want to make it legal to beat up or jail children for doing/saying something disruptive?
My point is that you did this because you could, not because it was the right thing to do.
Just like we went into Iraq and told them to suck on this because we could.
My point is your act was probably not terribly brave. And is not a whole lot different from what the kid was doing. Power and violence begets power and violence.
My point is that as a 25 year old bar certified lawyer, 12 year old kids should not make you go to a place inside yourself where you want to express physical violence.
My point is that if this were a group of 18 year olds or 20 year olds you would have said nothing.
My point is that if you had been attacked everyone would crowd around you and support you and your actions, but if you had been a man, yelling at the kids for their rude behavior, and he had been attacked, most people would have tsk'd tsk'd and said, what was he thinking?
My point is that in today's society, confronting people on their rude behavior is actually something that women can get away with, but men cannot. If so, you wish to ask yourself, do you occasionally blame men for not standing up for themselves or for you? Why is that, and how have you contributed to that? You may be more privileged than you realize, and you are very very privileged.
How many people would it have taken before I said nothing?
Are you kidding me? As a man, I am afraid to say anything to kids that I don't know. Especially if they are girls, who the hell knows what's going to happen, what they will say, what their parents will say.
As a man, I know it is almost certain I will get no support in the community for taking any kids on.
So no, it doesn't take me too much before I say forget it, in this day and age, since I am a man, no good deed will go unpunished.
Or, you can listen to the wisdom of Kwai Chang Caine:
KCC: Master, do we seek victory in contention?
Kahn: Seek rather not to contend.
KCC: Then, will we not then be defeated?
Kahn: We know that where there is no contention, there is neither defeat nor victory. The supple willow does not contend against the storm, yet it survives.
As a man, I am afraid
out of context? that fragment is the context.
Oh my god, he's quoting Kwai Chang Caine! Caveboy, don't you know KCC grew up to be a pimp/killer in a Tarantino movie?
The wisdom of Kwai Chang Caine! Jesus Christ, grasshopper, get a fucking clue!
What's next? Are we going to hear the wisdom of Spiderman?
My point is that if this were a group of 18 year olds or 20 year olds you would have said nothing.
I am telling you, yes I would, and in fact, I have. Confronting someone's rude behavior is not something anyone needs to "get away with," it is, in fact, justified. If you've gotten lambasted for confronting someone who was genuinely rude to you, that really sucks and I'm sorry, but frankly, it's not my problem and not relevant.
And Steve, Unfortunately, there's nothing to be done about it. These kids won't listen to lectures and the only disincentive that would work on them is the credible (or credibly perceived) threat of physical harm or imprisonment.
That's just wrong, and actually kind of insane. Are kids just randomly wandering around in the world, totally oblivious to the things their parents, teachers, and other authority figures say? If so, why isn't each and every person just running around raping and killing people? Lots of people, children, teenagers, and adults, change their behavior for all kinds of reasons apart from threats of physical harm. I'm not saying that what I did will have any effect, but saying "there is nothing anyone can do" is just incorrect.
BC pretty much nailed this @ 2:59.
What a depressing thread. I can't believe some of the guys here are upset that it's more socially acceptable for women to talk trash on the street than men. Out of all the gender disparities in the world to get upset about...
Rape and sexual assault are basically a one-way street. As a result, the rules of social interaction are not going to be enforced equally. This is not the fault of women who don't appreciate witty comments about the size of their breasts. This is the fault of rapist dickheads. Life's unfair sometimes. Learn to deal with it.
It is certainly true that if you get angry, you are doing what they want, which is making themselves feel important by showing they can get a reaction out of you.
Hmm, disagree. What they want is for her to show fear, or simply to take what they were dishing out. Certainly she didn't do that.
Wait, the feral pack of foul-mouthed 12-year-olds also left a bunch of comments on this blog after they catcalled skirts on the streets? I'll be damned.
Do any of you have a sense of irony? I just read a bunch of "Oh yeah, you're the fucktard!" comments by people lamenting the behavior of twelve-year-olds.
"'It is certainly true that if you get angry, you are doing what they want, which is making themselves feel important by showing they can get a reaction out of you.'
Hmm, disagree. What they want is for her to show fear, or simply to take what they were dishing out. Certainly she didn't do that."
I do think that the 12 year olds would have taken her ignoring them as a victory. But it is hard to believe that they feel she put them in their place when they responded by waiting until she was done and doing it all over again. My guess is that they considered being yelled at by an older woman and then getting in the last word as the coolest victory that they have had. That is pretty pathetic, but then trying to impress ones friends by causing a stranger pain is pretty pathetic.
I think she did the right thing if she feels better for her release of anger. But it is silly to think that these kids learned their lesson. It is much more likely they thought the exchange showed how cool they are.
I'm sure that, if they found themselves in a gay-heavy neighborhood on a Saturday night, the many straight advice-giving men in this thread would very demurely accept passing compliments and come-ons from horny gays with no rebuttals.
To the commenters who keep harping on how dangerous 12-13 year olds can be -- it sounds as if you guys think M. should be saying: "Thank God they didn't assault/beat/rape me for talking back to them! What a lucky day for me!" And that is a fucked up mindset.
As someone who works with troubled youth from that age demographic on a day-to-day basis, yeah, some of them can be dangerous. But you are blowing that potential for violence so way out of proportion that it really comes across as a veiled threat at a woman who would dare talk back to a man in the street.
Grow up.
"I do think that the 12 year olds would have taken her ignoring them as a victory. But it is hard to believe that they feel she put them in their place when they responded by waiting until she was done and doing it all over again. My guess is that they considered being yelled at by an older woman and then getting in the last word as the coolest victory that they have had. That is pretty pathetic, but then trying to impress ones friends by causing a stranger pain is pretty pathetic."
There has always been one very direct way they do not feel like they've 'won.' No, not make them very cold and still, but beating the crap out of them (OMG-get the PC police!!!!!). Does one get jollies doing it? No, and it's not a sure-fire step to take in all situations. I've seen really big 13 year old boys (look like they're 18) get slapped spitless by a woman and they cried like babies. Of course, you do have the problem of finding one that doesn't suffer that humiliation lying down.
That's when having a personal enforcer with you, and more importantly, how to use the projectile thrower. Smaller people can even the odds very well with the big burly types. As an early, early commenter said, you just have to have the will to do what you need to do.
This is such crap.
1. It's never acceptable to curse at children.
2. This was not about power and fear to that little shit.
3. Catcalls from men are not a regular hazard for the vast majority of women in America. Women in America are much more likely to be the "victim" of unsolicited comments about their weight from other women.
4. Distinctive physical characteristics (fat, short, big nose, unibrow, big boobs, etc) draw attention to themselves.
5. Nurturing a Napoleon complex is not a healthy way to live.
The comments here have shed a depressing light on the company I'm in when I read this blog. I wonder why it attracts so many misogynists?
Comments closed October 15, 2007.
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Heads in the Sand
"Little dick, junior."
max
['... and you ain't gettin' none.']
Posted by max | October 1, 2007 11:01 PM