The Blog of Knowledge

Daniel Gross makes the case against DIYorchards. Ezra Klein agrees. Kay Steiger, who went on the apple-picking trip Sara (pictured above, at the orchard) organized last weekend and that I attended under the time-honored principle "go apple-picking when your girlfriend tells you to," retorts that apple picking's not inefficient, it's "a form of entertainment." This would be a lot more convincing were agricultural labor entertaining. In reality, these are the jobs Americans won't do.

At any rate, it seems to me that there's a clear gender divide on this issue. Basically, ever since the era of Adam and Eve woman has sought to ensnare man in her apple-related ventures, while man has endeavored to uphold the division of labor and buy his apples at the store. And this, ultimately, is what Gross leaves out of the picture: apple-picking isn't just inefficient, it's actually evil.

Photo by Kate Steadman

Comments

fresh apples are superior. spending an afternoon outside, climbing around in short trees is the cost, is not too much of a price to pay.

Posted by cleek | October 10, 2007 9:32 AM

i hate that i don't use preview

Posted by cleek | October 10, 2007 9:33 AM

It's gotta be worse for the environment, to have all those people taking the 2 hour drive out their in their cars, to bring back... about 10 or 20 pounds of apples per car.

I think it's fun if it's a nice day. But it's a fairly wasteful activity, really.

Posted by mk | October 10, 2007 9:35 AM

If you go in the morning when the cider donuts are still warm, and you're back in time for the football game, then it's not bad. But I'm not picking anything at the migrant worker fantasy camp.

Posted by SK | October 10, 2007 9:41 AM

Of course agricultural labor is entertaining. Ever heard of "gardening"?

But then, it's like waterboarding. Doing it voluntarily, for a little bit, is very different from having to do it all day.

Posted by Anderson | October 10, 2007 9:42 AM

If you want the real experience, you'll drive to Fruita, in Capitol Reef National Park, and pick the fruit (cherries when I was there) from the abandoned ca. 1900 Mormon middle-of-nowhere orchards. Remarkable thrill being up on the ladder, scared the kid to death, and tasted better than the average cherry.

Two points -- the non-standard varieties, particularly of apples, are worth the experience, and, does Harvard or neo-liberal economics really disable one from telling that fruit of the tree tastes better than the stuff in the stores? Or is the East Coast fruit just not up to the levels of Oregon or California?

Posted by Gene O'Grady | October 10, 2007 9:43 AM

apple picking's not inefficient, it's "a form of entertainment."

I mean, clearly.

It's not like there are organized "pay for the privilege to spend the day working for Kathie Lee in a Mexican sweatshop and keep your clothes that you could buy at Target for less than the cost of this wonderful 'experience'" tours.

Yet.

Posted by SoCalJustice | October 10, 2007 9:53 AM

Are you kidding? As a gardening enthusiast, it's often a daydream of mine to "work the fields" for a living. Tough, backbreaking work, no doubt, and quite different from digging in the back yard, but still...you're outside, getting your hands dirty, communing with nature, etc.

If I could do that and make as much as I can sitting in the office staring at this screen, I would.

Unfortunately, I can't afford the pay cut. Maybe some day my employer will realize they are paying me way too much to surf the internet...

That'll happen before agricultural institutions ever realize they're paying their pickers way too little.

Posted by James | October 10, 2007 9:56 AM

Despite what Western art has depicted, it is unlikely that the Bible refers to an apple in Genesis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Knowledge_of_Good_and_Evil#Fruit_of_the_tree

Posted by Sam | October 10, 2007 10:03 AM

under the time-honored principle "go apple-picking when your girlfriend tells you to"

Yup... been there, done that.

Posted by right | October 10, 2007 10:07 AM

Timely post, Matt.

I too will follow that time-honored principle this weekend - Sunday, perhaps, as my beloved (and thoroughly cursed) Buffalo Bills have a bye. Licking wounds is sweeter when one has plenty of cider on hand and a girlfriend who knows how to make apple pie.

Posted by Will | October 10, 2007 10:09 AM

Actually I am an American and I have picked apples professionally before so it isn't necessarily a job that Americans won't do. I made 6.50 an hour(ca 1999-2000) and sometimes more if I picked enough bushels. I also worked for an orchard that sold its apples mostly through farmers markets and was a small operation, about 4 part time employees plus the owners. I imagine that in a large operation that sold to large scale apple distributors that economics might be a bit different. The work wasn't all that bad, I found it rather calming.

Posted by Jeff | October 10, 2007 10:13 AM

I don't think a whole industry could have been built around agritourism if it were just women who were interested in participating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agritourism

Posted by mr | October 10, 2007 10:13 AM

Of course agricultural labor is entertaining. Ever heard of "gardening"?

Yup. Grew my own heirloom tomatoes this year for the first time. Surprisingly fun.

Have been able to avoid the apple-picking adventures so far (despite the wife's requests), but I am doubtful that I will be able to hold out for long once the child is old enough to do it...

Posted by Al | October 10, 2007 10:16 AM

Is that education policy expert Sara Mead, whom I've heard so much about? She's pretty cute. However, she seems to be wearing the same shirt that my 1-year old daughter owns.

Posted by Steve | October 10, 2007 10:21 AM

Why would apples you pick yourself taste different than apples you get at a store? They are not packing pressed apple bits into red plastic skins in factories and calling them apples. They pick them from the same local orchards and put them in bins in the supermarket the next day or two.

Having grown up with a very productive apple tree in my back yard, I can assure you, apples do not taste as good when you pick them. They taste much better in the next few days.

I think the real phenomenon is that apples taste very good when you have been out in the hot sun engaging in physical labor.

Posted by Njorl | October 10, 2007 10:34 AM

it's not evil, but you do have to find a boatload of people on which to unload all those bags of apples which you pick in seemingly no time at all.

Posted by paperpusher | October 10, 2007 10:35 AM

Despite what Western art has depicted, it is unlikely that the Bible refers to an apple in Genesis

Yes, but since Matthew didn't get dragged out for fig-picking at a fig orchard, the joke doesn't work if you try to use figs.

Also, the apple in the Garden of Eden is now a pop culture icon, so it doesn't matter if it was what the author intended the fruit to be or not - everyone in the US gets the reference and most people would just be confused if you tried to make the joke with a fig or a pomegranate as the punchline.

Posted by NonyNony | October 10, 2007 10:39 AM

Um, this is a stretch.

APS

Posted by Ape Man | October 10, 2007 10:41 AM

The best fruit falls on your head while you are strolling through bucolic country lanes. This is easier to find in Europe where they have an actual countryside.

Posted by mq | October 10, 2007 10:50 AM

Gross:

[the European concept of terroir—the best stuff to consume is the stuff grown in closest proximity]

if that's what he thinks "terroir" means he's an idiot. I suppose we're lucky that he didn't notice the "War on Terroir" pun.

[Why would apples you pick yourself taste different than apples you get at a store?]

because you would presumably choose to pick the ripe ones, rather than picking slightly unripe apples for transport and shelf life.

Posted by dsquared | October 10, 2007 11:03 AM

DIY orchards are an enjoyable way to kill a few hours on a crisp autumn afternoon. The problem is that it's still eleventy-hundred degrees outside, so picking apples is no fun at all. It would be like corn detasseling, but without even the sweatshop wages or the hasty, awkward sexual hookups.

Migrant worker fantasy camp, indeed.

Posted by LaFollette Progressive | October 10, 2007 11:06 AM

How does this analysis extend to fishing? Fishing is another ostensibly unpleasant, low-paying job that is for some reason viewed as an awesome way to kill a weekend.

Personally, I prefer the fish counter at my local Whole Foods. Not only has the fish been conveniently outwitted and cleaned by professionals, but the selection far surpasses anything I'm likely to find in a local stream.

Comparatively, apple-picking seems great. The quarry is far stupider than fish, which means I can generally wrap the endeavor up within half an hour, then go home and eat pie.

Posted by Adam | October 10, 2007 11:12 AM

Just a related hint: don't let anybody tell you that taking part in the grape harvest is a joyful and romantic affair - once the grape juice runs into the cuts of your freezing hand you'll know you've been had.

Posted by novakant | October 10, 2007 11:23 AM

It would be like corn detasseling, but without even the sweatshop wages or the hasty, awkward sexual hookups.

It's worth noting that Cindy Crawford used to detassel corn as a summer job. You may have trouble finding that at your local apple orchard.

Posted by Steve | October 10, 2007 11:32 AM

just get it through your heads that it's not about the apples. It's something people do for fun--like hiking or going to concerts. That you happen to end up with something tasty at the end of the day is a bonus. And yes, you see lots of kids there for a reason--it's actually a cheap date when compared with the other activities (zoos, botanical gardens, aquariums, ice shows) that one is forced to take one's offspring to.

As for the quality of the apples--I've found that strawberries (which we also pick) tend to be somewhat disappointing, but the apples are almost always better right off the tree than in the store. I won't buy red delicious apples at a store, for example, but they are actually quite good from the tree.

Posted by JMS | October 10, 2007 11:36 AM

I still don't quite get what's wrong with paying an extra price to hang out in the sun and support what is, in my area at least, one of the few remaining local family farms in the country. Isn't that what we've all been told to do as good liberals?

Posted by Persia | October 10, 2007 11:38 AM

The comparison to hiking is a good one. It's a way for people to feel more connected to nature, their rural roots, support local farmers, etc.

I tend to think u-pick farms' main purpose is educational. It provides an engaging, hands-on field trip which can be tied in to history, agriculture/agriculture, nature etc. I know my Mom goes every year with her students.

The key is my Mom's students are 5 years old, not 25.

Posted by bjh | October 10, 2007 11:59 AM

We have an apple tree in our backyard; I didn't plant it, it was just there. My dogs adore it, they are like junkies under the tree eating apples that have fallen to the ground and even picking the ones they can reach. They'll eat 10 or 11 at a time if they can, and now all they want to do when they're in the yard is root around under the tree, no chasing the ball or anything. The big problem is that the apples make them crap about 10 times a day, so, finally being fed up with all the poop and with snow rapidly approaching in Western CO, I went out and cleaned out the tree this weekend. And you know what: Without the trip/novelty element, picking apples sucks after about 10 minutes. I may cut the tree down next summer.

Posted by Doug-E-fresh | October 10, 2007 12:00 PM

On fruit picking as a job Americans won't do...

I think it is a tragedy that Americans, before the wise corporatists and multiculti craving crowd gave us Open Borders, never knew what fruit tasted like.

Or were forced to live with no roofs over their heads before Mexican roofers arrived. Which allowed the water not to ruin the sheetrock, which Mexican sheetrockers could then hang...bettering Americans eating the wonderous new taste treat of apples as their Mexican housekeeper, doing the cleaning tasks no American housewife would do - helped Americans realize how great clean homes are...

Posted by Chris Ford | October 10, 2007 12:16 PM

I've never gone to a U Pick 'Em site that didn't have bags of fresh produce ready for the lazy. At a slightly higher price, of course. Apples and melons don't lose much in the translation from farm to retail grocery, so they're an odd choice for a trip to the U Pick 'Em site. Unless you're after a particular kind of apple. Peaches and strawberries, though, get beaten up in transport. And strawberries are best eaten as soon after picking as you can manage. You don't like peaches and strawberries? There's not much reason to visit the farm.

You seem to worry a lot about the economics of frivolous actions. Lighten up, Francis.

Posted by Jeffrey Davis | October 10, 2007 12:22 PM

I use to work at a pick your own orchard, the largest farm in Connecticut (1100 acres or so.) Anyway I think picking apples is fun, and it can get you laid.

Posted by Freddie | October 10, 2007 12:24 PM

She's cute Matt. What in the world is she doing with you :)

Posted by Flibbidy | October 10, 2007 12:25 PM

In general, activities involving the company of cute babes are superior to those that don't.

There are exceptions - some activities enjoyed by a lot of women, such as scrapbooking, will be too boring to the average guy for female company to redeem it.

I don't see apple-picking being one of those exceptions, though.

Posted by low-tech cyclist | October 10, 2007 12:28 PM

I have a dozen peach trees in my yard and actually enjoy picking them. I'll be adding some apple and pear trees next year

Posted by Campesino | October 10, 2007 12:34 PM

"This is easier to find in Europe where they have an actual countryside."

Yes I need to get to Europe one of these days to escape the vast concrete jungle of rural Iowa.

"Apples and melons don't lose much in the translation from farm to retail grocery, so they're an odd choice for a trip to the U Pick 'Em site."

Wow, this is news to me. I can get the the best apples I've EVER tasted going to an orchid, whereas the stuff at the store (while sometimes delicious) is usually crap. Same for melons, sweetcorn, etc.. I've always gotten better produce from a Farmer's market than at the store. Maybe it's just the varieties they sell here or maybe they only ship the good stuff to you guys.

"I may cut the tree down next summer."

And there's nothing quite like the feel and smell of "fresh" apples rotting under foot...

Posted by Rihilism | October 10, 2007 12:42 PM

Wow, this is news to me. I can get the the best apples I've EVER tasted going to an orchid

I never thought to go there.

Posted by Jeffrey Davis | October 10, 2007 12:55 PM

In general, activities involving the company of cute babes are superior to those that don't.

The cute rugby babe that I ate dinner next to, at the bar of my watering hole, mentioned that her teammates often get together on Wednesday nights and just hit the local restaurants. She told me I'd be welcome to tag along.

What was that about apples again?

Posted by Captain Goto | October 10, 2007 12:58 PM

I can get the the best apples I've EVER tasted going to an orchid

Yeah. I mean, it depends on the variety of apple-- some remain crisp longer than others. But some apples just need to be tasted fresh off the tree. I never used to like golden delicious until I worked in the orchard, because they were always so soft and mealy when you got them from the store. But fresh off the tree...man.

Posted by Freddie | October 10, 2007 1:02 PM

"They pick them from the same local orchards and put them in bins in the supermarket"

hahahahaha!

Posted by Dam S. | October 10, 2007 1:03 PM

By the way, this phenomenon does run in reverse. In India, people are willing to pay good money for a simulated plane flight. They sit in uncomfortable seats, listen to announcements, eat unpleasant meals, etc. You say: horrible ordeal. They say: novel!

Posted by Adam | October 10, 2007 1:11 PM

BTW, Sara looks hot!
************************

Now, aside from how well I know that some physical work "rusticating" with a women triggers their libido...We live near a large truck farm that grows everything and I can make an economic case and a "higher quality of life" for strongly supporting their existence near every American.

1. My wife realizes substantial savings from low-cost fruit and veggie bulk items picked. An hour of her time on certain items saves 20 bucks or so off similars from a supermarket. Flowers are also a bargain.

2. The Farm has pickers employed and not only are most fruit and veggie items at their outlet less expensive, their quality is well superior to supermarket fare. Moreover, the Farm has great deals on "seconds" - fruit and Veggies with minor blemishes, but outstanding eating... Sold by the bushel or peck - peaches at 20 cents a pound, a bushel of super, perfectly ripe Roma tomatoes for 6.25.

3. Fresh fruit and produce avoids substitutional costs of the candy, supermarket crap processed stuff our kids would eat more of without the availability of farm produce. Not to mention the dental costs of the junk they'd eat otherwise. My wife, for reasons known only to herself, knows from chatter our kids have less cavities than all the neighbors kids. They bitch about getting sick of peaches, next week they get plums or fresh-pulled carrots of 6 varieties.

4. Greater variety in local crops than in supermarkets. The supermarket in late August has 7 types of tomatoes offered. The local farm offers 23 varieties, including a line of 10 heirloom tomatoes.

5. In MBA classes, I read a piece on the costs of leisure activities seeking "rewards" vs. any "gain" from them. Things like hunting, fishing, rockhounding for gems, panning for gold. Most showed a negative return, even excluding labor costs. Two that did, excluding labor, were shellfishing (for clams, oysters, mussels) and gardening.
The next year, I tabulated all the costs for our annual garden, outside flowers, had my "game" wife happily participate in logging her labor hours, estimated "gain" of fruit and produce.
The home garden was a money-loser compared to the supermarket...so obviously it was better to convince her to abandon most fruits and veggies for the as good local farm stuff. Now she gardens just flowers, spring greens, green beans, cukes, zucchini...

6. Quality of life arguments include: Better nutrition for us and kids. Exercise when picking stuff. Very refreshing way to spend a day. Great conversations with the kids when you can talk hours with them about friends and school and life and your "philosophies" with no distraction from TV, games, or cell phones (they have to go on voicemail unless a "super, super important call is pending..) Superior food, more variety, at better price. Meeting interesting people, including the Jamaican and American pickers. Learning quite a bit about not only plant varieties, but how farming works, how the high tech farm stuff (or what was high tech 19th, 18th century stuff that still is remarkable innovation..my boy is fascinated by it) works..

Posted by Chris Ford | October 10, 2007 1:29 PM

For those interested in non-recreational apple picking (and storage, and shipping, and why the comment Dam S. derides above is just wrong unless Njorl goes to farmers markets or fancy shops), there was a good long form article several years ago, in Harpers:

The kingdom of apples:
Picking the fruit of immortality in Washington's laden orchards
by David Guterson

May well be subscriber-only, I dunno.

Posted by Warren Terra | October 10, 2007 1:31 PM

I never used to like golden delicious until I worked in the orchard, because they were always so soft and mealy when you got them from the store. But fresh off the tree...man.
Posted by Freddie

Amen. I hated them. Till I had one off a tree for the 1st time. Same with Braeburns and Mutzus.

Discovering the difference in golden delicious apples between picked and supermarket was amazing. Comparable to the fresh white flesh peaches that smell like you just stuck your face into a bouquet of red roses.
Add many more items - because the difference between farm and supermarket fare is like you are eating different things.

Posted by Chris Ford | October 10, 2007 2:00 PM

"I never thought to go there."

where have all the flowers gone, long time passing...

What can I say, I've got some dwarf irises I need to get into the ground tout de suite (or toot sweet, like we like to say in Ioway) so I got flowers on my mind.

All right, smarty-pants, next time you make a typo, I'm gonna let loose a vicious tirade...

Posted by Rihilism | October 10, 2007 3:05 PM

the difference between farm and supermarket fare is like you are eating different things

Along the same lines, I once had a tuna salad sandwich made from fresh tuna - I guess the restaurant had bits and pieces left over, that day, that they couldn't use for tuna steaks.

It was a revelation. It might as well have come from a different planet than Starkist gets their tuna from.

Posted by low-tech cyclist | October 10, 2007 3:18 PM

All right, smarty-pants, next time you make a typo, I'm gonna let loose a vicious tirade...

Fortunately, I'm married to a type O belladonor.

Posted by Jeffrey Davis | October 10, 2007 3:49 PM

just get it through your heads that it's not about the apples. It's something people do for fun--like hiking or going to concerts. That you happen to end up with something tasty at the end of the day is a bonus. And yes, you see lots of kids there for a reason--it's actually a cheap date when compared with the other activities (zoos, botanical gardens, aquariums, ice shows) that one is forced to take one's offspring to.

I was wondering when someone would bring this up... doesn't anyone here have kids? All the U-Pick orchards on the outskirts of the Twin Cities also have petting zoos, hayrides, etc. which makes the demographic they're shooting for pretty clear.

Posted by Chilly | October 10, 2007 3:50 PM

Rihilism, here's your straight line. I mis-spelled my own name in the Huckabee thread up above.

Posted by Jeffrey Davis | October 10, 2007 4:24 PM

"For those interested in non-recreational apple picking (and storage, and shipping, and why the comment Dam S. derides above is just wrong unless Njorl goes to farmers markets or fancy shops), there was a good long form article several years ago, in Harpers:"

That article is from 2000. Since 2003, Giant and Safeway (in the DC area, anyway) have been buying and selling (Giant does it centrally, I think Safeway does it by store) huge quantities of locally grown produce (like apples), when it is in season. Out of season, you're not picking it yourself, either. They save money because they pay no shipping costs. They make money because the produce is good. If you'd prefer deluding yourself, feel free. Self delusion is a favorite activity of most people, and it's generally harmless.

Tomatoes seem to be an exception. There are nice tomatoes grown locally, but not in the supermarket. Those I buy from a guy in a truck.

Posted by Njorl | October 10, 2007 4:49 PM

I apologize for doubting Njorl, and I salute his local supermarkets. Those here around Boston are, so far as I know, much less enlightened.

Posted by Warren Terra | October 10, 2007 5:44 PM

This thread demonstrates that apple-picking is a job that many Americans would take, if they could pick the apples with Sara.

Posted by Anderson | October 10, 2007 6:08 PM

"Rihilism, here's your straight line. I mis-spelled my own name in the Huckabee thread up above."

Get thee to a nunnery

Posted by Rihilism | October 10, 2007 9:29 PM

Well, when you wake up one morning with your bed sticky with applejuice, and the core of your favourite apple beside you, don't say you weren't warned.

Posted by firefalluk | October 11, 2007 2:16 AM

It's both about the apples and not about the apples:

1. The apples - the apples you get at the store are mostly pretty blah. And red delicious? Utter crap. But last year I went apple picking in Oak Glen, California, and even the red deliciouses were, amazingly enough, actually delicious. And not just that day, but for several days after. Not mealy at all.

2. Not the apples - agritainment is real. Driving out to the countryside (which, yes, even exists in Southern California - I have no idea what America mq lives in or has visited) is a pleasant respite from the rat race. I'm sure if I actually made my living picking apples I'd feel different, but when you're a little kid, visiting an office can be entertaining. It's a break from the regular routine. It's fresh air. It's mountain scenery and green hillsides.

Posted by Adam Villani | October 11, 2007 2:28 AM