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The Cold War Was Bad

16 Oct 2007 01:11 pm

Married Man Ross Douthat questions the relevance of Jonah Goldberg's view that we should emphasize that the Cold War was bad even though there was no real alternative to containment. Well, I can conceive of one possible use to which to put this insight, though I think not one Jonah would approve of, namely that insofar as possible we ought to try really hard to avoid getting into a New Cold War dynamic with China.

Oftentimes, I see people look at China's poor human rights record and its even worse record of diplomatic support for regimes with appalling human rights records. Then they look at China's veto on the UN Security Council. And then they conclude that it's an imperative -- in humanitarian terms -- not to bind ourselves to follow the UN.

One thing missing from this is how it's going to look from the perspective of Beijing if the US decides that it has the right to invade any country, anywhere, at any time because we've decided we don't approve of its government's internal policies. The answer is: not good. Expanding the ambit of decision-makers to something like a "Global NATO" or a "League of Democracies" -- groups that would exclude China -- doesn't change the basic dynamic. What you'd have is a situation where the United States was proposing a set of rules to govern the international road that the primary rising power couldn't possibly agree to. In short: Sino-American conflict and tensions. Even if that didn't erupt into something disastrous like an actual Sino-American war, it very well could mean a return to Cold War-style proxy wars and constant paralysis of global institutions and people need to understand that that would be an utter humanitarian catastrophe.

As horrible as Rwanda or Bosnia were or Darfur may be, one ought to recognize that on the whole the post-Cold War world has been much more peaceful than were comparable-duration periods of the Cold War (see the Human Security Report for a bunch of data on this) thanks to the existence of fewer proxy conflicts and the tendency for conflicts to be conducted with less money and weapons. Basically, one of the very most important things we can do in humanitarian terms in try to preserve a generally peaceful big-picture international environment, even though this may, indeed, mean exercising restraint vis-à-vis some specific humanitarian emergencies. This becomes even more true when we start to think about issues like climate change where there's obviously no hope of a solution unless the US, India, China, Europe, Russia, Japan, Brazil, and Indonesia can all work together.

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Comments (23)

I don't know: better spy novels, better songs about possible nuclear annihilation, better movies mocking the fellows with their fingers on the button.

Just curious.. What do you think of China's threat to get really, really, I mean it, pissed off if the Dalai lama gets this award?

Rudy wants Japan and India in his global NATO, apparently completely unaware of the domestic alarm bells that would ring in both countries if that idea was being seriously proposed. And of course not a clue about how the Chinese would feel about it.

Why does anyone waste any time on anything Jonah Goldberg says or writes? He's the poster child for how 24 hour news channels and the internet have worked to dumb down public discussion. Anyone who even glances at Goldberg's work will realize he's not very smart, he's not very knowledgable and he's not event that good a writer. If he had sprung from a different woman's loins, he'd be lucky to managing a McDonald's franchise.

The inability to stop treating boobs like Jonah like worthwhile commentators is, perhaps, the greatest weakness of the modern intellectual age.

Mike

Oftentimes, I see people look at China's poor human rights record and its even worse record of diplomatic support for regimes with appalling human rights records.

China is one of the most brutal regimes on the planet, and home to ~1.3 billion people. In essence, it accounts for the brutal repression of around 20% of the world's population.

It is therefore impossible that China's record of diplomatic enabling is worse than its own human rights record.

Matt seems to think we've had fewer proxy wars since the end of the Cold War because we no longer have an opponent.

Seems to me it might just as logically be attributed to the character of the man in the White House. Bush I, invades Iraq. Clinton, doesn't invade anyone. Bush II, invades Iraq.

After 60 years, the one thing we really do well is manufacture a "cause" for war. I find it really hard to believe we actually need a challenger to our hegemony to justify attacking someone. Looks to me more like military-industrial Keynesianism, in which almost everyone cheerfully took part until it became obvious that Bush was steering the gravy train over a cliff.

Lets keep the Cold War/China analogy quiet since Jonah clearly believes the only alternative to cold war is pedal to the metal hot war..

MBunge, my thoughts exo-freakin'-zactly.

Japan in the 30s looked at the British Empire, European meddling in China, America in The Philippines and decided that, hell, it was absolutely kosher to cook up a reason to move into China in a big way.

American Exceptionalism is going to be the death of us. But we've got very good reasons for going down the road that will kill us all.

One's perception of just how "bad" the Cold War was turns on one's judgment of what the actual probability of a nuclear exchange was at all points of the muted conflict, as well as on one's opinion of its legacy (for third-world countries, the international security regime, etc.). I don't believe that we should point too rosy a scenario--after all, although I'm not certain of just how closely we dodged the proverbial bullet, I think just assuming that since nuclear war didn't occur is commiting a sort of post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. All that said, the type of "bad" I describe is wholly different from JG's level of description of the conflict, which, relative to actual 20th century wars, wasn't all that bad.

Why does anyone waste any time on anything Jonah Goldberg says or writes?
Well said Mike.

It's just like keeping your head down and not reading the paris hilton items. It is the right thing to do, and you will feel better about yourself for it.

Why does anyone waste any time on anything Jonah Goldberg says or writes?
Well said Mike.

It's just like keeping your head down and not reading the paris hilton items. It is the right thing to do, and you will feel better about yourself for it.

I vividly recall thinking in 1972 how absurd the new official "understanding" of China and Taiwan sounded -- sort of like two entities in one theoretical body, like a wacky version of Trinitarian theology. But, guess what, Nixon, Kissinger, and Chou turned out to be a lot smarter than 13-year-old Steve Sailer. It's been a huge success, and it's in everyone's interest to keep it going.

Well said Mike.
It's just like keeping your head down and not reading the paris hilton items. It is the right thing to do, and you will feel better about yourself for it.

Well, he was ignored right into a prime spot on the LA Times editorial page so maybe pretending he doesn't exist might not work out the way you think.

I think that one possibility that's absent in most of these discussions about our relationship with China is:

What if China decides to start a Cold War with us?

If China starts spreading anti-Americanism and propping up anti-American countries, and/or pushing around our allies, what are we going to do? Sit there and let it happen in the interest of not starting a new Cold War?

This is another good example of a topic Jonah Goldberg should refrain from forming an opinion on until he does actual research on it.

For example, if you're a paid "journalist" like Jonah and want to comment on the Cold War, it would be helpful to read up a bit on the origins of Containment, like on Wikipedia or something.

If he had, Jonah would have learned that Containment was devised not because we were doubtful of our ability to militarily dominate the Soviet Union over the long run, but because the cost to our liberal, open way of life would be too great. In other words, Kennan and others felt that the irreducable character of this country would be destroyed by the unavoidable domestic militarism that would result from the massive military mobilization necessary to dominate the Soviets.

At the risk of sounding shrill, the whole point of containment was that an open, liberal society was just as important as security - no less. And containment was the only strategy that, theoretically, could balance those two needs.

What's so amazing is that today we see crackpot conservatives like Jonah Goldberg not just willing but eager to discard our liberties and openness in order to deal with a few thousand religious nuts hiding in caves, with not one nuke among them, nevermind thousands.

Jonah Goldberg's spectacular ignorance and his spectacularly poor judgment are, of course, why he holds prominent positions at places like NRO. He is not a journalist, and he does not "think" in any meaningful sense of the word, because he does not research to learn. He researches - if ever he truly does - in order to produce propaganda. He is a GOP utensil, not an intellectual or a journalist. A journalist, I'd imagine, would learn something about Containment before running his mouth about it.

For some reason, reading Jonah Goldberg's thoughts on complicated topics like Containment reminds me of my dog, Stu. When Stu wants out, he barks at the doorknob. He has absolutely no idea how a doorknob works, and he never will, be he has very strong opinions about it sometimes. This is, in many ways, just like Jonah Goldberg and virtually any historical topic at all.

"This is another good example of a topic Jonah Goldberg should refrain from forming an opinion on until he does actual research on it."

Yes, but this ignores why the bitterendnutosphere is all abuzz about how we should have gone after those durn Ruskies after we finished with Hitler. And sure, there's the desire to legitimate War in Ira*, that's a big part of it, but we're still missing the driving force. See, they've been watching the Ken Burns WWII documentary and it's got them all wound up and in need of some . . . release, so they have to go to the other end of the basement, pull out the trusty Risk board or maybe their old middle school history textbook, and settle in for some, er, action.

And frankly, that's the far preferable action, in which the only lives lost are those of some (specialspecialsnowflake) Zygote-Americans - not actual ones.

One positive step in the right direction would be to insure that the Republican party never ever again comes to power in this country.

JC

So? We just invite China to join the League of Democracies, and then the League rules the world!

There's a tendency to assume a new Cold War will emerge with China as the foe, if only because it's the only country with the potential to rival the US in power anytime in the next fifty years. Yet a few things to keep in mind, especially in comparison to the 20th century war against the USSR:

- China isn't expansionist, if one is willing to exclude both Tibet and Taiwan which China (and frankly, the world at large) consider well within Beijing's sphere of influence. China has not attempted to export its particular ideology or style of government to any other country. And how could it? China's ideology these days is strictly nationalist. No one in Beijing is advocating world revolution on China's terms.

- Secondly, China is far weaker than most assume. Most reports I've read estimate China is decades away from matching the US in military strength as well as economic power (on a per capita basis). China is a rising power to be sure, but it will be a long time before it could actually rival the US.

The point of all this is that there's a significant number of people in the US who appear to desire a conflict with China, and Jonah Goldberg, like him or not, speaks for a lot of people within his party and the nation as a whole.

we've been way too easy on china...mostly because u.s. corporations want to make a buck with its cheap labor.

i may be wrong, but i think there are going to be some great shenanigans at the beijing olympics. watch out for team buses getting stuck in "traffic" or lost -- reappearing just as events are over. it's gonna be great.


Comments closed October 30, 2007.

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