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The Ghost of Grover Cleveland

19 Oct 2007 01:06 pm

groverclevland.jpg

Paul Krugman makes analogies:

Here’s an example of the sort of thing that makes you wonder: yesterday ABC News reported on its Web site that the Clinton campaign is holding a “Rural Americans for Hillary” lunch and campaign briefing — at the offices of the Troutman Sanders Public Affairs Group, which lobbies for the agribusiness and biotech giant Monsanto. You don’t have to be a Naderite to feel uncomfortable about the implied closeness.

I’d put it this way: many progressives, myself included, hope that the next president will be another F.D.R. But we worry that he or she will turn out to be another Grover Cleveland instead — better-intentioned and much more competent than the current occupant of the White House, but too dependent on lobbyists’ money to seriously confront the excesses of our new Gilded Age.

Of course instead of "Grover Cleveland" for these purposes you could have used "Bill Clinton," likewise a much better-intentioned and wildly more competent leader than George W. Bush but who nevertheless wasn't revolutionizing the American political or economic landscape. On the other hand, if the health care reform plan Clinton proposed at the beginning of his administration had passed, Clinton would be considered -- along with Franklin Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson -- one of the three main architects of the American welfare state instead of as a moderate technocrat with much to be proud of but little in the way of big picture programmatic achievements.

Krugman himself argues in his book that given the absence of a Great Depression and a comparable crisis to World War II it's not at all realistic to expect an actual recurrence of something like the extremely dramatic changes of the FDR years. But a health care reform plan along the lines of what Clinton or Edwards or Obama has achieved would be a very big deal and if it worked well would build public confidence in the ability of the public sector to take on big problems and could lay the groundwork for further things to come down the road.

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But a health care reform plan along the lines of what Clinton or Edwards or Obama has achieved would be a very big deal and if it worked well would build public confidence in the ability of the public sector to take on big problems and could lay the groundwork for further things to come down the road.

...and won't happen absent a crisis.

I hope whatever plan is proposed will do something to encourage people not to get as fat as Grover.

Yeah, if only central bankers and legislators could engineer another Great Depression out of a recession, then we could have our lives more controlled by central planners. Here's hoping!

I've always thought Clinton was Cleveland a hundred years later. In more ways than one. "Ma, Ma, where's my Pa?" and all that.

Matthew writes this as though being one of the chief architects of the welfare state were a good thing.

Preposterous! Hillary Clinton can't be Grover Cleveland! Grover Cleveland has a mustache. See? Look closely at the picture, you fools! Hillary Clinton doesn't have a mustache...yay Hillary wooooo!

Yeah- I think we'll get some form of health care, and we'll have to make deals with Republicans. Fine by me. Obama won't have nearly the Democrat/Progressive Republican (they once existed!) majority that FDR or LBJ had.

In more ways than one. "Ma, Ma, where's my Pa?" and all that.

...and, as I'm sure all readers of this blog know, Cleveland's supporters chanted back "Gone to the White House, ha ha ha." This was what passed for partisan bickering in those halcyon days before talk radio.

In the meantime, I just want to say that I will definitely vote for any candidate who grows a Cleveland-style soup-strainer mustache. Including Hilary Clinton.

The health care plans proposed by the Democrats won't pass, because they are afraid of proposing the correct plan (single payer) and then bargaining down to some sort of universal private insurance. Instead, they are simply trying to force Americans to pay for their own health insurance, with no effective cost-cutting, insufficient subsidies for poor and middle-class Americans, etc. They will end up bargaining away the universal elements of the package to get something passed.

And even if they pass these plans as is, they won't work, because they are huge funnels of taxpayer money to middlemen rather than attempts to ensure that taxpayers get care.

It would be like if FDR, instead of proposing Social Security, proposed to deposit a sum of money for every citizen in the highest load, lowest performing mutual fund. If he had done that, we would still have tens of millions of elderly people living in poverty. And FDR wouldn't have had his glowing reputation.

James Gary, there has been very serious partisan bickering that David Broder would not approve of throughout American histroy.

Tim, if we get a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate and win the presidency, universal healthcare will happen. Maine and New Hampshire look great, Oregon not bad, KY surprisingly good, wish we had someone in NC to take on Liddy Dole.

James Gary, there has been very serious partisan bickering that David Broder would not approve of throughout American history.


Fuck David Broder, and the horse he rode in on. He's a cancer on this country.

The first Clinton presidency would look a lot better if the Bushies hadn't been so busy the last 7 years dismantling everything he accomplished. Getting taxes and reveunes in balance was a huge achievement, which the next president (Clinton II?) will have to recapitulate . . ..

"On the other hand, if the health care reform plan Clinton proposed at the beginning of his administration had passed, Clinton would be considered -- along with Franklin Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson -- one of the three main architects of the American welfare state..."

So I guess the third main architect of the American welfare state now would have to be George W. Bush, by virtue of his creation of Medicare Part D.

"James Gary, there has been very serious partisan bickering that David Broder would not approve of throughout American histroy."

Bob: Seriously, that is so not true. Bickering has only occurred very recently! In the old days, there were nice smoke-filled rooms where moderate democrats and moderate republicans got together and had scotch and figured things out. Each taking the best from the other side's ideas and giving up in return the worst from their own ideas. Then those conservative and liberal activists (a pox on both their houses!) started making trouble. Well, David Broder is not gonna let us forget how things used to be, or how noisy and distracting all of this partisan bickering is. Why can't they get together and solve global warming?! Why can't they fix healthcare!? It must be because both sides prefer to bicker. That must be it.

David Broder is the Grandpa Simpson of the Washington Press corps. Funny how the Washington press corps elected Gradpa Simpson to be their dean.

bob, I think you overlook the largest political impediment to what you desire, which is that the least exposed electorally important group, in terms of health care rationing, is non-poor retirees, and under a universal health care system, like those in other countries which are held up as models, they will face more rationing. There is no better country on earth in which it is better to be a non-poor 73 year old fat diabetic with a bad hip and a heart condition than the U.S., and such people have been trained for forty years to think that health care rationing is for other people. This will be a difficult interest group for Democrats to ignore.

I don't think either of them are good examples. Cleveland wasn't a good soul but restricted and hands tied by special interests. He was a Bourbon Democrat and committed classical liberal committed to the idea that the only purpose of government was to balance the budget. Clinton is actually more left leaning than a lot of his (Democratic) detractors let on and left to his own devices would have orchestrated a lot more progressive legislation but as he was forced to spend most of his time in office playing defense against the GOP, his record in office was little more than rearguard action against Reaganism.

I think you overlook the largest political impediment to what you desire, which is that the least exposed electorally important group, in terms of health care rationing, is non-poor retirees, and under a universal health care system, like those in other countries which are held up as models, they will face more rationing.

That non-poor person can purchase private care, like in other countries which are held up as models.

Why on earth would they want to pay the private market price for something that they are currently getting at a price which reflects massive subsidies from the wages of much younger people?

Of course you're an idiot or an asshole and probably both if you don't understand by now that Bush sucks and that Democrats suck but slightly less.

Still: you wonder how much cash this Krugman fellow himself made in the long boom (and how much of it will be shielded from his desired hike in income taxes).

You also wonder if the satanic lobbyists to whom he refers include the lawyers who give millions to the DNC and rake in hundreds of thousands a year now from mid-size companies for Sarbanes-Oxley compliance.

Well, as much as it usually is foolish to ascribe idiocy or worse to people for the offense of have differing political views, it is notable that a guy like Krugman can rail against the worst excesses of crony capitalists for years without mentioning that he receives large paychecks from a private enterprise which are subsidized by the taxpayers of New York, subsidies designed to aid the poor, downtrodden, Sulzberger family and their employeees.

Those who cannot refute Krugman go all ad hominem, I guess.

James Gary:

"In the meantime, I just want to say that I will definitely vote for any candidate who grows a Cleveland-style soup-strainer mustache. Including Hilary Clinton."

I second that.

Maybe I'm being pollyannaish, but the Internets just might inform people better than before and allow people to organize better so positive change is possible sans another Great Depression.

Don't see another way anytime soon. Iran? No way. China? Our economies are too intertwined.

James Gary:

"In the meantime, I just want to say that I will definitely vote for any candidate who grows a Cleveland-style soup-strainer mustache. Including Hilary Clinton."

I second that.

Maybe I'm being pollyannaish, but the Internets just might inform people better than before and allow people to organize better so positive change is possible sans another Great Depression.

Don't see another war anytime soon. Iran? No way. China? Our economies are too intertwined.

There is nothing ad hominem in noting that someone has allies within his faction who engage in the same behavior that the denouncer decries in the faction he opposes. Nor is it ad hominen to note that such a denouncer is benefitting from behavior which is decried when practiced by an opposing faction.

There is nothing ad hominem in noting that someone has allies within his faction who engage in the same behavior that the denouncer decries in the faction he opposes. Nor is it ad hominen to note that such a denouncer is benefitting from behavior which is decried when practiced by an opposing faction.

Translation: "I know you are, but what am I?"

No, the translation would be, "This person really doesn't mean what they say, because if they did, their criticism would not be so selectivey targeted, thus it is perfectly reasonable to ignore him."

Listening to Krugman lecture on the evils of crony capitalism is akin to listening to Ann Coulter lecture on the evils of over the top and intemperate hostile rhetoric.

Will Allen, Krugman probably isn't exactly getting rich from his NY Times OP Ed column, which after all isn't even his daytime job. Apparently the medium destroys the message for you--anyone who publishes in the Times, and probably by logical extension in any other major venue, by your reasoning loses the right to be heard on economic topics.

No, rea, people who are paid well (rich is in the eye of the beholder) to opine by the Sulzberger family, and who use that platform to denounce the crony capitalism practiced by the faction they oppose, without denouncing with equal vehemence the crony capitalism enjoyed by the Sulzberger family, are not people who are worth paying attention to, for the same reason I would not listen to O.J. Simpson's publicist denounce spousal abuse.

On FDR: Reading old books by Alan Drury I got a chilling vision of FDR as a charming, seductive, dangerous imperialist and proto-dictator.

Look:
http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/MUHLBERGER/2007/06/allen-drury-senate-journal-1943-1945.htm

There is no better country on earth in which it is better to be a non-poor 73 year old fat diabetic with a bad hip and a heart condition than the U.S.


You're absolutely right and that's thanks to Medicare--- single payer government health coverage that every American qualifies for on their 65th birthday.

Yes, beowulf, and non-poor people near or above the age of 65 are the most powerful electoral group in this country, and they aren't going to be interested very much, when push comes to shove, in subjecting themselves to greater rationing. Therefore, they will act as a substantial impediment to reform.

I don't understand the Cleveland analogy. Does Krugman even know anything about the man or his terms in office? Doubtful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Cleveland

Re: Therefore, they will act as a substantial impediment to reform.

Nothing being discussed in healthcare right now involves Medicare, so why would retiees care one way or the other, even assuming they are totally selish and don' give a hoot at all about their own kids and grandkids?

Because, Jonf, the people who advocate true universal health care quite frequently invoke other nations' models as to what should be emulated in the U.S.. Those models entail more rationing for non-poor retirees.

I'm pretty certain that Medicare For All is designed to emulate... Medicare, which does not ration. So why worry about rationing in a theoretical foreign-model system when in the actual US-model system, there is no rationing?

Oh yeah, because conservatives hate Medicare but can't oppose it politically without being slaughtered in the polls (geezers do love to vote). That's how they end up arguing that we must keep the government out of Medicare.

beowulf, please stop fantasizing. There is no sucyh thing as health care without rationing, anywhere on the planet. It is merely a matter of how the rationing is done. In the United States, we ration mostly with poor people, somewhat more with middle class people, and hardly at all with rich people and non-poor retired people. There will not be Medicare for all, at least at Medicare's current level of rationing, which is why the most electorally important part of the population, non-poor retired people, will be an impediment to that sort of reform.

Will Allen, lying like a rug and vicious as can be as usual.

"There is no better country on earth in which it is better to be a non-poor 73 year old fat diabetic with a bad hip and a heart condition than the U.S., and such people have been trained for forty years to think that health care rationing is for other people."

Hey, lying, vicious Will Swill.

Taking rotten lessons, Will Swill?

Jennifer, do you ever do anything other than vomit in public?

Re: There will not be Medicare for all, at least at Medicare's current level of rationing, which is why the most electorally important part of the population, non-poor retired people, will be an impediment to that sort of reform.

Once again, there are no serious proposals out there to get rid of, or change, Medicare at all. I'm talking about programs being proposed by candidates with some reasonable possibility of being elected. Neither Sen. Clinton nor Sen. Obama, nor ex-Sen Edwards are proposing "Medicare for All". So can we please toss the red herrings in the dumpster? They are starting to stink.


Comments closed November 02, 2007.

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