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Times Change

07 Oct 2007 08:21 am

"The group of World War II veterans kept a military code and the decorum of their generation, telling virtually no one of their top-secret work interrogating Nazi prisoners of war at Fort Hunt," reports Petula Dvorak for The Washington Post, "When about two dozen veterans got together yesterday for the first time since the 1940s, many of the proud men lamented the chasm between the way they conducted interrogations during the war and the harsh measures used today in questioning terrorism suspects."

Obviously, they just didn't understand the stakes. Or perhaps lacked moral clarity.

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Comments (30)

The Washington Post article on Fort Hunt is a bad case to cite as illuminating the path for interrogating Muslim fanatics.

Complete apples and oranges.

Fort Hunt was set up in late 1944, when the Germans knew the war was lost. Islamoids believe they are winning the current war.
A more appropriate example would be the early interrogations of hardcore SS caught in France, Russia, N Africa 1941-42...the Brits, French, and Soviets found those guys wouldn't talk, wouldn't divulge any info because Nazi Germany was winning - and had to be beaten to a pulp to disclose useful information.

The interrogators mentioned in the Post story were all ethnic Jews, but were German and Austrian natives. Most were left-leaning. There was no huge cultural chasm between captors and interrogators. We have far better luck in interrogating American traitors affiliated with AQ and radical Islam than the ones from the Ummah. The Jordanians, Egyptians, Saudis get far more info out of the Ummah ones.

The people the German-American Jews tended to interview were not the hardcore fanatic Nazis, they were mostly Wehrmacht line officers. Those few that were hardcore, were smart enough to know the war was lost or were interogated at Fort Hunt after the surrender. (Half of the unit's work in interrogations happened after surrender.) In any case, unlike Islamoids, willingly cooperating means to those Muslim extremists they betray tribe, family honor, their religion - With the Germans, it PAID to express regrets and to fully cooperate. Most of the Germans were convinced the faster the war was over at that point, the more German lives saved and the less the Soviet dominance of Europe.

If the same German -American Jews in the WP story had tried playing chess or ping pong with Islamoid fanatics as they did in leisurely Geneva Convention style with the Germans, no guard in the room, no shackles - the Islamoid would jab their eyes out with a chess piece, kill them with a leg of the ping pong table.

I will be very surprised if we hear a peep out of our friends on the right-wingnut side of things on what these vets have said. Sort of puts them in a tough spot.

Scratch that. Looks like the resident wingnut was all too ready to comment.

Bush had his response ready the other day. In the same gush of explanation that we weren't torturing, he injected that the interrogations were getting information. *wink*

We get it, George. *wink*

Some people will just never learn.

I always saw the process of becoming the enemy you fight in order to defeat him as a bug, not a feature. Guess I was wrong.

Islamoids believe they are winning the current war. If the same German-American Jews in the WP story had tried playing chess ...the Islamoid would jab their eyes out with a chess piece, kill them with a leg of the ping pong table.

Any sources for that, Chris?

It's not that they didn't understand the stakes, Matt, it's that the stakes were noticeably lower. The Germans and Japanese were peaceful and democratic at heart, and many of them were even white and Christian. That's why they welcomed us as liberators, which is why we expected it to happen again this time. So it's not that the men and women who fought WWII weren't patriotic, their enemy just wasn't as powerful or evil as whoever it is we're fighting today. They were as great a generation as was called for at the time.

Islamoid?

Islamoids? Is that the new name the wingnuts are trying to push: I guess Islamofascists was too kind sounding so we need to go with something that is more dehumanizing. While the 9/11 masterminds are truly despicable, we'll see how soon this applies to everyone in Guantonomo and entire countries soon enough

"The Germans and Japanese were peaceful and democratic at heart, and many of them were even white and Christian. That's why they welcomed us as liberators, which is why we expected it to happen again this time."

I strongly disagree with this interpretation. Americans were accepted as occupiers and/or welcomed as liberators, because Germany and Japan had been utterly destoryed by the war. Both nations fought brutally to the bitter end until it became clear that resistance was futiile. Their militaries were wrecked, their cities were flattened, their populations were often homeless and on the verge of starvation. Indeed, the most violent and destructive days for Germany and Japan came toward the end of the war.

I admit that there were democratic elements of both societies that facilitated postwar reconstruction. There is no doubt about that. But it's what happened during the final year of the war that allowed those seeds to grow: fascism, militarism, and authoritarianism were thoroughly discredited. The US delivered to these ideologies--and the people who sponsored them--stark, unquestionable defeats. There has been and will be no analog in Iraq.

I can't read the word "Islamoid" without thinking of "Lectroid." There! Evil PURE AND SIMPLE by way of the Eighth Dimension!

Unreal Veal. Don't you think that aleks had tongue firmly in cheek?

UV,
You may have a point there. But I hope we can at least agree that both Japan and Germany produce some startling beautiful women, which must have made the job of occupation considerably more pleasant.

Despite the regretable 'conservatism' of Mr Ford, he makes a good point. When I read the WaPo article I wondered how the interrogation of Japanese officers went. Seems more comparable, more apples and apples. Didn't bother trying to Google it but suspect we didn't learn much from them for the same reason we likely don't learn much from the inner cadre of AQ; they are what we would call fanatics and would prefer death to capture.

Still, as a justification for torture (beating them to a pulp) the fanaticism of a prisoner doesn't count. Torture is what torturers do; they don't need real reasons. Their role as interrogator simply lets the inner sadist show himself.

Chris The Insane Racist Ford:

"The Washington Post article on Fort Hunt is a bad case to cite as illuminating the path for interrogating Muslim fanatics."

The insane racist Chris Ford begins with racist insanity. Vile insane racist, Chris Ford.

Insane racist Chris Ford trying hard to be ever more insanely racist. I think Chris Fraud is the most insane racist ever, but there is competition so try harder.

And about those piles of useful information gained by "robust" interrogation tactics?

Zip. The people who've been caught recently were all trapped by good, careful police work of a very orthodox sort.

On the other hand, if you're the sort of person who gets an erection from listening to screams....

Shorter Chris Ford:

"Can I hurt them? Really, really hurt them? Pretty please?"

When I read the WaPo article I wondered how the interrogation of Japanese officers went. Seems more comparable, more apples and apples. Didn't bother trying to Google it but suspect we didn't learn much from them for the same reason we likely don't learn much from the inner cadre of AQ

John McC asks a conjectural question and conjectures an answer, using another, different, conjecture as "evidence." Dude--if you're trying to make a point, you could at least invent some facts.

Chris Ford:

".....oids"

The ultimate in racism is being insane enough to coin a term of hate.

I'll be willing to grant that the Germans and Japanese were more peaceful when we've had hundreds of thousands of casualties,in this war Remember, Normandy, Anzio, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Rapido River (a battle that poisoned Gen. Mark Clark's reputation among Texans including Sen. Connelly of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. The problem with Iraq has been it has been a proxy battlefield for Syrian and Jordanian
Salafists; like Maqdisi's protege Zarquawi, Saudi
Wahhabists and Iranian proxys like the Sadr brigade.

Mentioning Fort Hunt in this context, leaves out it's role in the formation of the cooperation agreement between Dulles & Co. and Gen, Reinhard Gehlen, Eastern Front military intel chief that led to the Gehlen Org which became the BND; which 'rehabilitated' no end of SS, Abwehr, & Gestapo war criminals (Barbie, Mengele,Brunner, Rademacher, et al)It was the original reason that the SDS's Carl Oglesby, formerly an influence to HRC in her teen years) and Joe Conason, along with Sidney Blumental urged the denazification of American security services

Mr Grey-Actually, I was sorta bothered by my ignorance of the results of interrogating Japanese POWs and so returned to the internet (when I had really meant to be 'productive' today).

What I found was a JAVA file of a reunion of Military Intellegence personnel, most of them Nisei. Many voluteered directly from the relocation camps and quite a few seem to have been quite heroic (on the beach at Okinawa, in Burma with Merrill's Mauraders).

Much that they contributed was document and intercepted phone-line translations, as you would expect.

Their face-to-face interrogations (as far as I could tell in an hour or so of cruising thru) were with enlisted men. Again, as one would expect. From them they did in fact learn a good deal of battlefield intellegence, since the Japanese soldier, once captured, feared being re-captured. (Hadn't thought of that either!!)

Their relationships with prisoners seem to have been benign. Their stories are full of references to the Japanese POWs assisting (with the meaning of Japanese military map symbols, for example) or confiding (that they just HAD to be off the front lines by a particular date--because a counter-attack was planned.)

Wonderful reading.

Oooops. That's MR GARY. No offense.

The Germans and Japanese were peaceful and democratic at heart

You've seen the pictures of the death camps. You've read about the rape of Nanking.

Peaceful and democratic aren't the words that spring to my mind when I think of the death camps or of the cruelties of the Japanese military. (I think the Germans and Japanese have become more peaceful and democratic, but I don't think those two characteristics are ever very deep for any group.)

"Iranian proxys like the Sadr brigade."

Unless that was a typo, do try to get it right. The Iranians trained the Badr Brigade, not al-Sadr's forces.

I've weighed in on the appropriateness of torture before. Torture doesn't work against motivated forces. That's known to anybody who isn't an idiot like Chris Ford.

The threat of immediate death on occasion does work - especially if you have more than one individual to work on; threaten one, when he refuses, you shoot him, then threaten the next one. It will either work or it won't.

Neither approach - in fact, interrogation in general - is particularly effective at obtaining useful intelligence. The only real way to get useful intelligence is to TURN someone - which is not done by torture or threatening death. Other useful ways are by infiltration, effective ELINT or HUMINT, and the like.

Interrogation is WAY down the list of effective ways of gathering intelligence about an enemy.

Folks, in the bad old days, the Greeks, Persians, and the like used to torture people as a matter of course. They had Greek battalions who were full of gay men. Those men resisted all kinds of torture because they were protecting their lovers, as well as their comrades.

Anybody justifying torture is stupid because it is INCOMPETENT to torture.

Every time Bush talks about "harsh interrogation methods", just point out that he's an incompetent idiot to believe it works or is even needed to deal with a terrorist threat.

Not to mention that, by the nature of the way terrorism works, a captured terrorist isn't going to be ABLE to tell you anything useful. Because the minute it's known he's been caught, everybody who has any connection with him gets reassigned elsewhere and nothing he can reveal is there any more.

Terrorists aren't stupid. They don't operate in fixed base camps or other fixed assets that can be located by interrogating a captured combatant like the military does.

This is why whenever we bomb a "terrorist training camp", it invariably turns out to have been empty for weeks or months.

It's just stupid to try to fight terrorism via interrogation.

JohnMcC, glad you did some research. My understanding (incomplete at best) is that the fanaticism in the Japanese army was pretty far up the line. But the thought that there were lots of democratic roots in Japanese society, as has been suggested, is a bit...laughable.

I think the biggest difference between the Germans and today's Islamic terrorists in the mind of Chris Ford, et. al is that the Islamic terrorists are Scary Brown People. As you're well aware, those people are capable of anything.

[T]he Islamoid would jab their eyes out with a chess piece, kill them with a leg of the ping pong table.

What, al-Q is training ninjas...?

""It's not that they didn't understand the stakes, Matt, it's that the stakes were noticeably lower. The Germans and Japanese were peaceful and democratic at heart, and many of them were even white and Christian. That's why they welcomed us as liberators, which is why we expected it to happen again this time. So it's not that the men and women who fought WWII weren't patriotic, their enemy just wasn't as powerful or evil as whoever it is we're fighting today. They were as great a generation as was called for at the time.
Posted by aleks | October 7, 2007 11:25 AM "

You've seen the pictures of the death camps. You've read about the rape of Nanking.

Peaceful and democratic aren't the words that spring to my mind when I think of the death camps or of the cruelties of the Japanese military. (I think the Germans and Japanese have become more peaceful and democratic, but I don't think those two characteristics are ever very deep for any group.)

Posted by Jeffrey Davis"
*****************

If that sarcasm isn't clear enough for a guy named Jeff Davis, I just give up.


Comments closed October 21, 2007.

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