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Vouchers

31 Oct 2007 04:36 pm

For all of the extensive huffing and puffing on the subject of school vouchers over at McMegan's place, I'm still left totally baffled as to what it is she's actually proposing, and doubly baffled by her steadfast refusal to say what she's proposing:

Either you agree that poor kids should be allowed to exit until the system works for them, or they don't. My model of voucher beliefs predicts that people will get angry at me when I challenge their beliefs without changing their minds, and indeed, they are right. And myself, I'm too angry on the subject to do much good. The people saying that they want details before they'll commit: look, obviously design matters. If you concede the right of exit, I'm happy to debate details. But until you do, it's a waste of time.

First off, as Ezra says, the United States already "allows" poor parents to withdraw their children from inner city school systems in much the same way that it allows rich and middle class parents to withdraw their children from inner city school systems. They're "allowed" to send their kids to a private school that's willing to educate them, and they're "allowed" to move elsewhere. Obviously, in practice poor families have less practical capacity to do this. But by the same token, poor families have less practical capacity to live on streets with well-appointed sidewalks, to choose cruelty-free meat, tto get health care, to benefit from competently organized disaster relief, to live in neighborhoods with low murder rates, and all kinds of other things. These are all real problems but since they're problems of practical capacity rather than permission (about the fair value of the right, rather than the existence of the right) institutional design is about all that matters.

One needs to go back to what we know about educating poor children. One thing we know is that it's very difficult. The schools that do a good job of educating poor kids tend to expend more resources than do schools that do a good job of educating middle class kids. We also know that there are many schools that produce good overall results but that nonetheless produce bad results with their poor children. We know that some urban public school systems do better than others. We know that the charter school movement has produced some successful models, but also that market demand can keep a healthy number of non-successful charter schools operating because parents do a less-than-perfect job of making school placement decisions on the basis of evidence about educational outcomes.

If we're concerned not about the "right" of exit (which already exists) but the practical ability to get a better education, then you need policies that increase the supply of schools that do a good job of educating poor children. Just handing a voucher to every family in DC that can manage to place a kid in a private school would be a nice subsidy to the parents at Sidwell and St. Albans and would presumably get some poor kids into better situations, but would still, in practice, leave most DC families right where they are today — with the "right" to send their kids elsewhere, but no practical ability to do so.

Maybe that'd be a change for the better. In DC, which is about the worst-case scenario for an urban school system, I'd find that claim plausible. Elsewhere, it might do more harm than good. But in neither case would it address the issue in a comprehensive way. Which, I think, is one of the main attractions of the voucher concept — it lets people get indignant about the sorry state of public education by basically assuming the problem away, thus avoiding the need to deal with the real issues.

Photo by Flickr user Sfllaw used under a Creative Commons license

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Comments (81)

You better stop saying smart (and obvious) things or Megan's gonna get mad at you, you fascist.

I paid no attention when Meghan said it, but the whole "poor kids have the same right to withdraw from school as rich kids" is the least freaking liberal thing I have ever heard from a progressive. I guess they have the same "right" to healthcare too--I mean, nobody's making it illegal for poor people to buy expensive insurance or take a high paying job! Way to piss on what you supposedly belive to pull off a libertarian end-around snark

The one argument I keep hearing over and over from voucher opponents is that "it won't fix the system." No one change will "fix the system," and that fact is not a sensible argument against any program.

"Which, I think, is one of the main attractions of the voucher concept — it lets people get indignant"

and don't forget:

it let's people scream 'hypocrisy'!

And what's particularly weird about MegArdle's stance on all this (aside from her refusal to not make every post at least partially an ad hominem about the hypocrisy of voucher opponents) is that she insists that this is an egalitarian position. But of course, there isn't anything like a movement to utterly eliminate public schools in favor of providing vouchers for every kid in the land. It isn't even on the radar screen. So she in effect argues for a solution that leaves many kids behind, but insists that she is doing the opposite.

Even if the idea of a totally privately run, publicly funded school system had short-term plausibility-- and support among the actual pro-voucher activists- the ide a has numerous flaws, the most paramount of which is the fact that you would be basing enormous change to the system on unsupportable assumptions and weak data. Voucher proponents assume that because private school students test higher and graduate at a higher rate then public school students, they do a better job of educating. But this rests on the assumption that the populations being educated are equal. And we know that isn't close to true. Everyone who is routinely denied access to private schools, through economics or policy, are precisely the students who test worst: special ed kids, kids with emotional disturbance, kids with criminal backgrounds, and (most importantly) poor kids. These are precisely the populations that have the hardest time with academic achievement. Voucher proponents confuse cause with effect.

This is particularly galling because voucher advocates are notoriously vague on what mechanism they think creates the supposed educational superiority of private schools. As I've said here before, their is almost no difference in pedagogical technique between the average public and private school. The curricula taught are close to identical, and so are the methods. Voucher proponents like to chalk it up to vague notions of bureaucracy and accountability. But I would suggest that it's simple-- public schools teach kids who are predisposed to academic failure. As Matt has suggested, removing underachieving students and placing them in private schools has at best an uneven track record for success. Vouchers are a dodge, a way of proposing a simple solution to problems that are endemic in our social and economic makeup.

Matt, the "right of exit" also, probably, refers to your right to stop paying taxes which fund the educational choice you abandon.

why not give vouchers a try. there's nothing really to lose (accept for public school teachers and administrators).

we need to shakeup the system and hope for the best (and I can't imagine the worst case voucher scenario being much worse than the status quo.

thehova writes:

I can't imagine the worst case voucher scenario being much worse than the status quo.

thehova presumably went to one of these underperforming schools.

"But until you do, it's a waste of time"

I understand these blog to blog conversations can be about criticizing other people's thoughts and not necessarily proposing solutions to policy issues, but I think McArdle takes this way too far. Every post is about how people aren’t thinking about the issue in the right way. Who ever it is she imagines she’s arguing with must accept the debate on her convoluted terms of debate.

If you can agree with what I said above then I can respond to further comments. Otherwise I won't talk about it because you're just wasting my time.

MY is on fire today!

Whatever you're drinking, dude, you should put in a case of it.

we need to shakeup the system and hope for the best (and I can't imagine the worst case voucher scenario being much worse than the status quo.

Please provide the evidence you have that shows that things couldn't get worse.

One of the massive problems with this debate is the tendency of some to say "Things couldn't possibly get any worse!" without providing any evidence that that is the case. Even if we concede that things are very bad in some districts, that is a far cry from saying "things couldn't get worse", which leads people towards the nuclear option.

It's telling to me that, in general, the people who actually know something about educating children are opposed to voucher plans, and that the majority of voucher supporters are people who've never set foot in a classroom except as a student.

Voucher plans generally assume that what may work in a limited set of circumstances can easily be scaled up to a larger overall system. But there's plenty of circumstances where that's not true. This is, in fact, analogous to the difference between microeconomics and macroeconomics. Assumptions that hold true (or that are good approximations) when considering the behavior of a single firm in a large market do not hold true when considering the behavior of the economy as a whole.

Just handing a voucher to every family in DC that can manage to place a kid in a private school would be a nice subsidy to the parents at Sidwell and St. Albans and would presumably get some poor kids into better situations, but would still, in practice, leave most DC families right where they are today — with the "right" to send their kids elsewhere, but no practical ability to do so.

That's the core point Megan keeps ignoring. Vouchers don't give poor students the right to exit the system because they don't actually provide a place for them to go. There simply aren't enough private schools to accept more than a tiny fraction of these students and those schools are already mostly full.

The only way to ensure that every student has the right to a good education is to first ensure that every student has a seat in a classroom at a school that's obligated to accept him and can't dismiss him without cause.

Private schools don't fit that description. Public schools do. If you want to fix education in the inner city you have to do it within the public system.

School choice is probably a good idea but it isn't a magic bullet. Freddie is right that school quality is mainly a function of student abilities.

Private schools strongly filter for student ability. Vouchers are not going to stop this. Vouchers will likely accelerate this filtering as demand for private schools go up.

Great post, Matt.

I think that after years of blather about competition, immersion, phonics, etc, we are finally starting to talk about what the real problem with our schools are: we don't educate poor kids well. If we just focus on that issue, we might be able to achieve some clarity and actually come up with ideas that will help. Like Matt said, vouchers could help a few poor kids with savvy, active parents, but unless they were tied to low incomes, would help mostly middle class parents with kids in private schools. And like Matt said, even if there were enough private schools to take all the poor kids, it wouldn't help. The poor kids take their needs with them. Just going to a private school isn't instantly going to change your home life, your nutrition, your neighborhood, your reading level, your atttitude.

Similarly, just telling urban public school districts to work harder (hold them accountable) isn't going to solve the issues of educating the poor either. If we really care about this we need big structural changes and a bunch more resources aimed only at poor kids. I don't actually think this will ever happen when the public understands what it would require, but it's good that we are a least starting to talk about the real problem.

I'm still left totally baffled as to what it is she's actually proposing, and doubly baffled by her steadfast refusal to say what she's proposing:

That's because you aren't reading her literally. Looking back at Megan's site, it's obvious she's not arguing that every student has the right to an education. She's literally arguing that they have the right to "exit the system" - to drop out before age 16.

We force kids to go to school. We are literally keeping them from exiting the system: between the ages of six and 16, they have to be there eight hours a day. Affluent parents get to choose which system they participate in; poor parents don't. I think poor kids also have a right to exit the schools if they aren't--as they are not--getting a decent education.

"These are precisely the populations that have the hardest time with academic achievement. Voucher proponents confuse cause with effect."

It's just like a public project to put books into every house because children that have books in the house have higher test scores. However, having books in the house is a sign of educated parents, who are more likely to have kids with higher test scores. The books aren't the cause of higher test scores, just a symptom of the type of parents that have those types of kids.


I'm a public-school product who taught at a public high school before moving to my current job teaching at an independent school. The schools I attended were in a college town, so they were well-funded, with parents who were well-educated and interested in their kids' education. The school where I first taught was a huge school in a big district with a lot less money, less parental involvement, and a biiiiiiig gap between the richest kids and the poorest kids--and it didn't work very well, except for a relatively small group of students and parents who'd probably have done well anywhere. The job itself was frustrating enough that I gave up my tenure and my retirement account in order to take a one-year contract at a private school.

In short, I've seen the good and the bad of public education.

I'm now teaching at a very good independent school, and you might expect me to favor vouchers. As an abstraction, sure, I'd be fine with them. But since I've never yet seen a voucher plan that would put a significant dent in my current school's $40,000 annual tuition, there's no way any but the very wealthiest parents could pull their kids out of the public schools and enroll them here.

Oh, and my own kids attend the local public high school. Even if they'd wanted to come here, we couldn't have afforded this place, either.

Megan also doesn't know that, you know, kids can be home schooled, so they aren't really kept there "there eight hours a day".

why not give vouchers a try. there's nothing really to lose (accept for public school teachers and administrators).

we need to shakeup the system and hope for the best (and I can't imagine the worst case voucher scenario being much worse than the status quo.

Is that really the way we want to handle educational policy, "hoping for the best"?

And we really are hoping for the best, since most voucher programs seem to lack any oversight, which would require additional federal or possibly state regulations of private schools (McMegan would love that I'm sure).

Because of this lack of oversight, by the time the voucher experiment shows signs of failure (which I admit, it may not, though there is little data to support that vouchers work) it could be too late to turn the boat around.

In addition, vouchers equate to "giving up" on the public school system. At the end of the day, voucher programs take money away from public schools. And I don't see how we can possible fix the public school system (and there are many public schools that are doing just fine that would be effected too) by depriving it of money.

Could we PLEASE stop taking McMegan seriously? Yeesh. There's a mountain of serious research on every question involving vouchers, from every side, and she seems to be unaware of most all of it. As in every issue, she just airs her kneejerk libertarian prejudices, circa 1995 or so.

Nice post...on a partial tangent. I've often wondered what other changes in cities a large-scale voucher system would produce. It seems a large part of where people decide to live is determined by the quality of school districts. If there was a comprehensive voucher system that included middle class people too, it seems that inner city neighborhoods would become more appealing to folks who are living in the 'burbs for their the sake of their kids' education. I realize this would take a pretty comprehensive voucher system to have an effect on urban space. Does anyone have any thoughts?

One the main reasons that private schools seem to perform so much better than public schools is that there are very, very, few poor kids in private schools. I would even argue that if there were significant numbers of poor children in private schools the problems of public schools would be duplicated. This why no one seriously advocates the privatization of schools. The problems poor students have are not caused by teachers or schools and cannot be solved by teachers or schools. So in the end the voucher programs become a kind of educational white flight boondoggle that help the rich and about to be rich while as usual the poor get screwed.

Freddie wields Occam's Razor when he says: "But I would suggest that it's simple-- public schools teach kids who are predisposed to academic failure."

That's the bottom line and Freddie nails it.

If you want to take a straightforward step to relieve some of the stress on the public school system from kids predisposed to academic failure, the most obvious way to do it is through immigration policy. Follow the Canadian / Australian system of letting in smart immigrants and keeping out dumb ones, and you'll find that the next generation of schoolkids is less predisposed to academic failure than it would be under the current system.

Steve Sailer,

What do you suggest doing with kids born here who are "predisposed to academic failure"?

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." -- Anatole France

Given McMegan's 'let them eat cake' attitude, did she do the whole Marie Antoinette thing for Hallowe'en?

If anyone is interested in helping out an actual DC public school student, I volunteer at a program called Community Club and we are looking for more volunteers. Basically, you tutor a kid once a week on Thursday evenings in a very well-organized and positive environment. If anyone is interested and wants more information, you can send me an email at davidjbalan@gmail.com.

http://www.communityclub.org/

Harry asks:

"What do you suggest doing with kids born here who are "predisposed to academic failure"?"

Help them succeed as best they can at something practical rather than academic.

There are lots of potions and notions in education -- vouchers, relentless testing, accountability -- but they're largely for the purpose of kidding people. I've never seen evidence that Americans value the potential experience as much as they love complaining about the actual one.

Here's part of an interview I did with a Milwaukee community organizer named John Gardner:

Q: Is there a "Yale or jail" presumption in the educational establishment?

A: The entire "Educartel" is focused, almost exclusively, on getting students into four-year colleges.

Here are the reasons for this, in priority order:

1. The people who run the Educartel are all, by definition, four-year college grads, and believe that is the path to success and productivity. They are also, increasingly, from families, neighborhoods, and affiliations ever more distanced from working class high-wage productivity, such as construction workers, toolmakers, and line electricians.

2. The only way the Educartel can imagine doing anything else is reverting to old "voc/tech" programs. These are accurately remembered as a dismal failure in their dying decades of the late '70's through '90's, and no one seriously wants to bring them back in that state. They were also very expensive, compared to the capital outlay for classroom chairs, desks, and blackboard. In eras of tightening educational financial margins, often miscalled "cuts" or "decreases," spending comparatively more money per student for vaguely remembered failed programs does not get anyone's support.

3. Powerful skilled labor unions, especially construction and heavy manufacturing, used to support voc/tech programs. They supplied political muscle in a very effective labor-management alliance that crossed general partisan and ideological boundaries. Private-sector labor unions have lost their membership and clout as construction and heavy industry have found ways to reduce labor membership and power. The combination of off-shoring, out-sourcing, mechanizing and cybernizing has also reduced employers' need and support for domestic high skilled labor.

4. Four-year colleges are voracious recruiters, and offer increasingly attractive spaces in both public and private sectors. The oversupply of four-year colleges, even after the late '70's-early '80's shake-out, gives college counselors an easy out for their seniors, including their least academically ambitious or capable seniors: "Go to college."

5. Power brokers and powerful leaders put this dilemma pretty low on their priorities. The kids getting messed over by Educartel failure lack political support. They are minority, poor, and concentrated in low-votership districts.

6. The legislators and civic leaders representing them have bought into the go-to-college mania.

7. No one's really showed a cost-effective alternative.

In addition, the Educartel has done a magnificent job, in collusion with colleges and universities, of selling the notions that four-year college works. No one but the Army even tries competing with that message, and you may notice that much of the military's advertising appeal is improving chances for college.

http://www.isteve.com/2002_QA_John_Gardner.htm

Isn't it just a little ironic that you all are working so hard on new faux-cutesy nicknames for Megan and speculating on her personal life in citation-less commentary while projecting endlessly about *her* ad hominem attacks and lack of citations?

Some days you read blogs and it seems like everyone is accusing each other of being a blogger.

First off, as Ezra says, the United States already "allows" poor parents to withdraw their children from inner city school systems in much the same way that it allows rich and middle class parents to withdraw their children from inner city school systems. They're "allowed" to send their kids to a private school that's willing to educate them, and they're "allowed" to move elsewhere. Obviously, in practice poor families have less practical capacity to do this. But by the same token, poor families have less practical capacity to live on streets with well-appointed sidewalks, to choose cruelty-free meat, tto get health care, to benefit from competently organized disaster relief, to live in neighborhoods with low murder rates, and all kinds of other things. These are all real problems but since they're problems of practical capacity rather than permission (about the fair value of the right, rather than the existence of the right) institutional design is about all that matters.

I agree whole-heartedly. That's the same reason I think it's stupid to argue that poor children "need" health care. Of course they need health care, and no one's stopping their parents from buying it for them. Yeah, the whole "lack of financial resources" thing is a real problem, but it's a problem of practical capacity rather than blah blah blah pseudo-intellectual nonsense and then I stopped reading.

JB,

Way to miss the point, dude. Maybe you should finish reading.

Face it - most voucher supporters are either:

(a)middle-class parents who have strong religious backgrounds and want government to help pay for them to send their kids to the small Baptist school they already pay to send their kids to.

(b) Anti-government types who see no value in publicly supported education;

(c) A few inner-city parents who realize the desperation of their own children's options, but due to the parents' own financial wherewithal cannot provide the options middle-class and upper-class parents can.

The first two use the latter group to support their own selfish motives, while the third does not realize that all vouchers will do is for the most part is increase demand due to the an increase in the number of private education purchasers, thereby moving the demand curve to the right, and at least in the short term, leave everyone right back where they started. The mid-term outcome is that some good, but mostly bad educational institutions will open up seeking profit first, results second, creating the great Wild West in the K-12 education marketplace, which is not what we should do with these kids. But apparantly Megan and others are okay making matter worse, and leaving everyone worse off except the first two groups, who get either financial support for a choice they have already made at the expense of the poor kid Megan claims she is trying to help.

As other posters have mentioned, the problem is not the schools, teachers, administrators or others. It is the fact that the parental/family structure which is what fosters a desire to succeed is broke in these communities. If we accept that fact, then we can start to implement policies which might somewhat take-up the slack from parental neglect. However, this would take politicians with some serious cajones to tell their constituents that they themselves are the reason for the poor educational system. I have never understood why schools do not start to implement longer school days to keep kids off the street. Why not 12 hour days? Seems to me a 9:00 to 9:00 high school schedule makes a lot more sense than a 7:00 – 2:45 school day (which is what we had at my high school 12 years ago).

(A) – You would keep the kids off the street, and allow parents the time to work more odd jobs and be home for their parents before the kids could get into trouble.

(B) You could implement mandatory clubs and other groups which replicate what middle-class and upper-class parents have, such as mandatory book clubs, homework/study hall and hours etc…


(C) Dammit – why do more public schools not require mandatory uniforms. How one dresses oneself and how others around you are dressed I believe has a psychological effect on behavior.
(D) You could target at risk kids with the extra time and work with them on their educational weaknesses/learning disabilities.

Lets not forget also that if Megan's hopes where education is no longer compulsory comes true, you suddenly have opened up the entire argument about public financing of the K-12 education. Once something becomes optional, suddenly, the imperative to fund it through tax dollars goes away, especially given the nefarious effect this will have on drop-out rates for at-risk youth.


Er, yes, I happen to be one of those educators opposed to vouchers as they are presently constituted. I also posted for a short time over on Megan's blog, and tried to post actual numbers on private vs public outcomes (which, as most everyone knows, show no statistical difference. At best. There is some evidence that public schools are better.) But no one there, it seemed, was actually interested in the facts of the matter. But they were very interested in griping, whining, and name-calling.

Fwiw, I would have to say that it's pretty noncontroversial what needs to be done. And it ain't anything to do with the schools themselves. Unfortunately, what needs to be done is difficult, and requires a tremendous amount of resources, both in the dollar sense, and in the human captial sense. So we're reduced to bickering over band-aids.

Honestly,

maybe 10 years ago I would have been more supportive of vouchers. But since 2000, private institutions have not exactly instilled confidence. In fact, Bush's failures as a President have come not from too much government oversight/bureaucracy, but from too much privatization, lack of oversight, and overall willingness to ensure his buddies get paid regardless of performance.

Plus – and this is my biggest issue with funneling public money to private contractors. Once you funnel tax dollars to an industry, that industry has vastly more influence over government policy than institutions which are still directly controlled by the government. Not only are those individuals within that private enterprise able to lobby and contribute individually, but now the very industry/corporations receiving tax dollars can give. And as we have seen, corporate donors always trump the individual donors.

If we start giving out vouchers I fear that you will see what we have with private military contractors – clear evidence of incompetence and even less accountability to make changes to the organization. I already foresee the industry using their clout to suppress poor standardized scores or other evidence of poor performance, with the backing of the very politicians they lobby to do so. And if you think money at the financial level buys influence, wait until you see what lobbying does to a city councilman!

Now – you could argue that the Teacher’s Union has a lot of clout as well. But, my feeling is that superintendents, administrators and others can be fired, dismissed, reprimanded and overall dealt with much more quickly and easily than say, the owner of a group of private schools would be. In addition, the power of the teacher’s union to lobby politicians to suppress reports or other information which would put the public school in a bad light does not happen. This is because the Teacher’s Union is powerful not necessarily for the money they contribute, but due to the sheer size of the union itself, which, at least democratically seems more palatable than the power of a small group whose influence is based on money versus votes.

In the post above I meant to say:

"And if you think money at the [I]financial[I] level buys influence, wait until you see what lobbying does to a city councilman!

In the post above I meant to say:

"And if you think money at the federal level buys influence, wait until you see what lobbying does to a city councilman!

Brad writes:

If we start giving out vouchers I fear that you will see what we have with private military contractors – clear evidence of incompetence and even less accountability to make changes to the organization.

The 2000 California Proposition 38 mandated that a 75% super-majority was required for any future state changes to laws and regulations covering private schools. Regardless of how badly things turned out it would have been almost impossible to change anything without another proposition.

Matt: "Which, I think, is one of the main attractions of the voucher concept — it lets people get indignant about the sorry state of public education by basically assuming the problem away, thus avoiding the need to deal with the real issues."

Freddie: "Vouchers are a dodge, a way of proposing a simple solution to problems that are endemic in our social and economic makeup."

Yes! Yes yes yes yes. Oh, I am so happy to see this pointed out. (And I'm not saying it's always intentional (although in some cases it surely is) - it's part of how ideology makes the world smooth and slippery and oh-so-pliable, in place of the rough and ragged-edged reality. To rephrase a comment I've been leaving in different versions (and places) for the last few years, a lot of talk about education is largely part of a complex mythology that serves to gloss over the chasm between who and what we like to think we are - generous, fair, open-hearted, citizens of a rags-to-riches dream that offers equality of opportunity to all - and the rather ugly and savagely unequal reality.

"Fwiw, I would have to say that it's pretty noncontroversial what needs to be done. And it ain't anything to do with the schools themselves.
ScentOfViolets - back when I was teaching, for a little bit the professional development sessions included the (likely scripted downtown) rebuke-reminder that we weren't to complain about things we didn't actually control - only what we could do as teachers. Which was entirely practical and proper, of course, but - yeah.

ScentOfViolets:

I was interested in what you were saying at McMegan's blog. And in many ways I think it's more important to post over there, in the trenches on the Eastern Front, than here.

I'd encourage you to storm that emplacement one more time.

" And it ain't anything to do with the schools themselves.

To be fair, short of wide-reaching social change, there is a decent bit that can be done with the (inner city public) schools themselves, but most of it requires actually adequate funding as a necessary (but yes, not inherently sufficient, blahblah blah) condition. And that, of course, is where we get the great big screeching brakes/needle scratch noise.

The Conversation:

-'Look, we can't fix society, but we can at least do a lot more for the kids. Give us enough money to cut class size, attract and retain lots of high-quality talent, an d provide a wide array of support staff and innovation . . .'

-'[sticks fingers in ears] Ahhhrgarglebarglebah! I caaaan't hear you! Vouchers! Vouchers! Magical free-market fairy dust! Jabbetyblab! Just throwing money at the problem! Huzzlebpbt! Vouchers! Choice! Quizzlewit!"

If vouchers were offered to parents equal to, say, 80% of the per-pupil costs at their local school, how could public school zealots complain about that? For every student they lost to private schools, they amount of money they'd be left with per student would go up. They'd also be left with smaller class sizes, which the teachers unions are always clamoring for. It sounds like a win-win to me.

As far as opposition from middle class parents (on both ends of the political spectrum), they wouldn't have much to fear either: as long as their schools cost more per student than the vouchers, most poor black kids wouldn't be able to go there. Which is just as well for the poor black kids, since most of them have different educational needs -- another win-win.

When every parent in a school district has ~8k+ to spend on alternative schools, educational entrepreneurs would start a slew of such schools to compete for that money. One could offer longer school days, uniforms, same sex classes, and military discipline; another school could be set up for the Urkels, etc. KIPP schools could proliferate.

How could it be worse than our current system?

Way to miss the point, dude. Maybe you should finish reading.

No, I get the point. It's not a hard point to get, and it's one I agree with. I wasn't posting in favor of vouchers, just in opposition to verbiage.

If vouchers were offered to parents equal to, say, 80% of the per-pupil costs at their local school, how could public school zealots complain about that?

Fred, are you nuts? At 80% of the costs of a public school student, you'd have nowhere near enough to pay decent private school tuition. So the parents rich enough to kick in the extra money would take their kids out of the public schools, leaving the remaining students even poorer (and more likely to be children of parents who care less about education). This is a clear case of a strategy deliberately designed to impoverish working-class families even further and destroy even those public schools that do work.

Vouchers might be contemplated if you awarded at least 125% of the cost of a public school tuition, while taking away at most 50% of the cost of the pupil who leaves, and kicking in the 75% difference from general taxes.

"As far as opposition from middle class parents . . . they wouldn't have much to fear either: as long as their schools cost more per student than the vouchers, most poor black kids wouldn't be able to go there."

Thank you for your honesty, Fred. And indeed, when I've talked to affluent and privileged voucher supporters - the ones best able to set the agenda - something like this sentiment almost always comes up, if sometimes more aptly coded.
(Now do folks see why we don't embrace the idea with open arms?)

Of course, since one of the main social benefits of vouchers in theory is the reduction of racial/economic segregation - yeah.

And again, we're also getting to see a bit of the ol' Education Myth: poor urban public schools are in trouble because they're public (because teachers unions, lazybad teachers, or government schools, or whatever one latches onto); just bring in the market, and it will all be happywonderful, heck, the poor brown kids will probably be throwing flowers. The crazy idea that massive socioeconomic inequality, segregation and racism which keeps poor, often brown families penned in violent, decaying, and dysfunctional neighborhoods and systematically underfunds their kids' education has something to do with - what? huh? All we have to do is give them a voucher and everything will be all right (or at least, you've done something meaningful) . . . .

Now, a reform program that acknowledged this reality, and perhaps included a voucher component (public or public&private) that dealt with the actual world - well, that's something. Meanwhile, I'd happily get behind an expanded and well-funded housing voucher program - what do you say, voucherfriends?

"Educartel"

Please, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, someone please make him STOP! Won't someone think of the children!

Nobody wants to hear your latest "catchphrase" or your "interview" with a "community organizer" (read, "local wingnut"), Steve, and I doubt that anyone cares to pay you any consulting fees. Peddle your garbage at your own website, NR, and American Conservative, and

`Get thee back into the tempest and the Night's Plutonian shore! Leave no black plume as a token of that lie thy soul hath spoken!
Leave my loneliness unbroken! - quit the bust above my door! Take thy beak from out my heart, and take thy form from off my door!'

The American elementary and secondary school system consistently ranks among the bottom half of industrialized nations, with countries like Thailand and Greece. The American college system is the envy of the world.

American students don't magically change between high school and college -- their education system does. They move from a localized near-monopoly to a system where government fosters competition by providing financial assistance to students attending non-government schools.

If vouchers were offered to parents equal to, say, 80% of the per-pupil costs at their local school, how could public school zealots complain about that? For every student they lost to private schools, they amount of money they'd be left with per student would go up.

And this is just the dishonesty I have commented on elsewhere: What is spent per student is nothing like the the cost of educating the average student. In fact, based on my own experience, the marginal cost of educating one student is probably around $1,000/yr. If anyone objects, I'll post my figures. So anything over this amount is just a money grab by the voucher advocates. And they cannot claim ignorance of this fact.

Further, for many people, the cost of public education is . . . free. Giving them that $5,000 dollar voucher is precisely the same as giving them $5,000 over and above what they already make.

Now, if the people who want to implement vouchers were to get this money out of some general fund that did not touch the funding for public schools, I'd have no particular objection. Strangely enough - strangely in light of their claims they are not trying to do for public education - these people are always going after the pot of money already allocated to public schools. They don't ever seem to propose an initiative that doesn't do this, rather than try to come up with new funding on their own.

The American elementary and secondary school system consistently ranks among the bottom half of industrialized nations, with countries like Thailand and Greece.

The large majority of industrialized nations send special education students to separate schools. The academic data for these students is not pooled with that of their regular ed students, unlike in the United States. Contrary to popular opinion, the large majority of special ed students here in America take the same standardized testing as their regular ed peers. If you correct for that discrepancy, the United States ranks much higher international, significantly ahead of countries like Thailand and Greece.

Do you have any other arguments for me to shred?

"Which, I think, is one of the main attractions of the voucher concept — it lets people get indignant about the sorry state of public education by basically assuming the problem away, thus avoiding the need to deal with the real issues."

Change a few words and I think this describes the driving force in most libertarian ideas.

American students don't magically change between high school and college -- their education system does. They move from a localized near-monopoly to a system where government fosters competition by providing financial assistance to students attending non-government schools.

Look at the stats: Our higher education institutions actually have HIGHER drop-out rates, and lower rates of students who start earning degrees than our public education system does. And that's working with a population of students that is self-selected, has already weeded out the 1/4+ of kids who drop out of high school and the ~1/3 of high school students who don't go on to higher ed (these tend to be the poorest, hardest to educate and least bright students), and where the students are more committed because they're paying for it themselves. Our higher education system does many things well, and some institutions do a good job of educating undergraduate students from disadvantaged backgrounds. But the vast majority of available evidence suggests that our higher education system as a whole does not actually do a very good job of teaching students, particularly those from low-income and minority backgrounds.

Thanks, Freddie. Another factoid that most people who study the issue know, but somehow, seems to elude the voucher advocates. Ever notice how every bogus fact they know just 'happens' to support their position?

For myself, I am wondering if these good people could explain, precisely, what these other schools do that American public schools fail to replicate. And why, even after knowing what this mysterious X factor is, American public schools would be unable to replicate it.

There's no big mystery to teaching after all. You have a subject you wish the kids to learn, you choose your books, overhead transparencies, educational films, etc. You get up in front of the white (or black) board for an hour. You assign homework on a weekly basis, perhaps some other longer term projects, give tests and quizzes, meet with students on a one to one basis to help them out, and at the end of a semester, assign a grade.

Good teaching (imho) lies not in presenting the material to the kids, but in being observant enough and quick enough to catch the errors in their thinking processes, to be able to diagnose what has been mis-learned from a pattern of wrong answers.

If anyone else - especially the pro-voucher people - have a better idea or plan, I'd certainly like to know. But specifically. No vague handwavy prescriptions.

For myself, I am wondering if these good people could explain, precisely, what these other schools do that American public schools fail to replicate. And why, even after knowing what this mysterious X factor is, American public schools would be unable to replicate it.

Right. They are incredibly vague on what mechanism they think it is that private schools employ to provide this supposedly superior education. If you're a parent and you just want to say "well I trust them, they're getting my money," that's fine with me-- 'cause it's your money. But when we're talking about public funds and public policy, I'm afraid that's insufficient.

"Get thee back into the tempest and the Night's Plutonian shore! Leave no black plume as a token of that lie thy soul hath spoken!"

For obvious reasons, the idea of Steve as - of all birds - a raven made me start giggling uncontrollably.
heeheehee.

I think anyone who wants to make anything more like the system of higher education funding in the US is a masochist.

If everyone got Xk to put towards private schools private school tuition at good schools would increase by ~ Xk+(Private school Inflation rate before vouchers). New crappy schools would crop up to accept those who couldn't afford the now too expensive good private schools.

that's some good crack. - exactly. Unfortunately, it's like credential inflation.

Freddie, the scattered presence of special ed students among the US testing pool does not account for the differences. It's a feel-good apologetic that comforts Americans nervous about our global competitiveness, but even when controlling for baseline student achievement (i.e., disparate testing cohorts), US schools dramatically underperform internationally, and rank dead last when measured per-dollar-spent.

Sara, American college dropout rates are high because the enrollment rates are high. Part of that is because we have so much supply -- there are so many seats available -- precisely because the federal government provides financial assistance to students attending private schools, allowing those schools to create more space. Voucher proponents want to use the same mechanism to increase the supply of elementary and secondary school seats, allowing parents to find programs better suited to their children's needs.

I am wondering if these good people could explain, precisely, what these other schools do that American public schools fail to replicate. And why, even after knowing what this mysterious X factor is, American public schools would be unable to replicate it.

This is really asking why near-monopolies are inefficient. Why couldn't Soviet government-run grocers adopt the best practices from the European grocers competing in the free market? There are many factors, including political control, misaligned incentives, the bureaucratic reward structure, etc.

Encouraging competition is a staple of US policy, and is the primary factor the FTC and FCC consider when analyzing mergers and industry health. Both the FTC and FCC use the HHI to measure industry competitiveness. When applied to elementary and secondary schooling, the localized HHI values are in the anti-trust range. Monopolies and near-monopolies are always inefficient, even when their operators are good people trying to do good work. Government does best supplying commodities, and education is not a commodity. Variation is essential.

Sigh. Matt, I asked for specific differences. Stop weaseling. Tell us, in your considered opinion, just what the non-public schools do differently.

I'm curious, btw, as to your credentials for making these sorts of assertions with no backing cites. I've taught in both the public and private systems, and I have yet to see a difference in teaching styles, etc. The only differences that I do see seem to arise from cherry-picking and parental involvement. If you want more specifics, I'll be happy to supply them.

Beyond disputing your data, here's my question: if it's the monopoly that causes academic failure in American schools, why wouldn't that be the case in other nation's public education systems? What you are saying would make sense if other countries used voucher systems like what you are endorsing. You've fallen into the trap of comparing the US to international schools as a way of leveraging vouchers: you want to use America's supposed failure in comparison to schools in other countries, but you also want to suggest that failure is the product of public education's monopoly. But many of the nations who outperform the US have precisely the same monopolies!

Some specific advantages most private schools have over government schools is: less red tape for innovation, ease of firing underperforming teachers, ease of expelling abusive students, student and parent mentality that attendance is a privilege, not an entitlement. The SCOTUS has reasoned that because government schools are government entitites, they have to submit to various provision of the Constitution that compromise the government schools' educational objectives for other public policy goals. Forced bussing to overcome neighborhood segregation is the best bad example, but the court has injected itself into the classroom in many other ways, too, like due process, first amendment and school disciplinary procedures. Those are all valid issues, but those objectives frequently do compromise schools' ostensibly primary objective. The court requires government schools to tolerate all kinds of student and teacher behavior that harms the learning environment. That is private school's biggest advantage -- they have a trump card over the kids' behavior. If schools were able to suspend and expel students easily, students would behave better. Those who were expelled would have to go to stricter schools until they shape up. This paradigm already exists in the government schools (expelled kids go to special programs) but the bar for expulsion is currently set too low, mostly because it's so hard to expel students from government schools.

Some specific advantages most private schools have over government schools is:

Note: my failure to align my subject and verb should not be blamed on my government-school teachers!

"Fred, are you nuts? At 80% of the costs of a public school student, you'd have nowhere near enough to pay decent private school tuition."

Brooksfoe,

Did you read the rest of my comment? At 80% of the costs of public school, educational entrepreneurs will start schools to serve those students. Heck, I'd probably start one. You could easily run a small school at 80% of the costs of the school district: have the teacher/owners clean the school themselves instead of hiring custodians with defined benefit pension plans; have the head teacher double as the principal and have one admin assistant with a computer instead of the usual administrative apparatus; etc. With the money you'd save from all that you could pay teachers more than they'd get in public schools, and with less regulations you could hire teachers who actually know math and science.

"Thank you for your honesty, Fred. And indeed, when I've talked to affluent and privileged voucher supporters - the ones best able to set the agenda - something like this sentiment almost always comes up, if sometimes more aptly coded."

I don't think those affluent suburban parents are entirely off-base. I went to two high schools -- a nearly all-black one, and a predominantly white and Asian one, and I can tell you this: my presence in the black school didn't help any black kids learn trigonometry. And I doubt any of them would have been better off at the white/Asian school. There's nothing magical about sitting next to a smart white or Asian kid that gives you their academic abilities by osmosis. On the other hand, if the white or Asian kid has to bring a mouthpiece to school in the event a black kid starts a fight with him over some trivial pretext, that might detract from his educational environment. Programs that have been proven to help poor black kids are highly-structured ones like KIPP.

All right Charlie Brown, I'm sure you'll kick the football this time.

Freddie, I think school choice would improve international schools, too. Competition improves all markets, especially those requiring variation. My guess would be that, as with other industries, centrally-administered school systems do best with student homogeneity. The more hetergenous the consumers, the harder it is for centrally administered systems to meet their needs.

On the other hand, if the white or Asian kid has to bring a mouthpiece to school in the event a black kid starts a fight with him over some trivial pretext, that might detract from his educational environment.

Fred, forgetting the offense of the idea that any white student in a predominantly black school will inevitably get beat up is the simple fact of its inaccuracy. I mean look I don't have data, but then, neither do you. So in counterpoint to your anecdotal evidence, I went to a predominantly minority school system in a designated urban district, and the only fight I ever got in was with another white kid. People can and do actually coexist with members of other races.

I'm sure you think that you're racist douchebaggery is the product of being beaten up by black kids as a child. I'd suggest it's the opposite. You got beaten up because you are a racist douchebag.

Our schools do an ok job of educating white and asian middle class students. The comparisons with foreign systems are not applicable because the best have tracked high schools: students take a test to get in. So we compare all our high schools students to their 20% or whatever it is and look bad. But our top 20% will be comparable to their top 20%.

And here is where Steve Sailor is right. We pretend that everyone should go to college and get some kind of white collar job. If we tracked our high school students with academic and technical vocational options we would be much better off. THink about it. You're 14 years old, you know you don't really like academics, but there is a auto mechanics or an IT or a furniture making program that you can get into if you pass certain basic classes. That is motivation and job training. Now the option is to somehow pursue academic courses that you have no interest in or drop out.

Fred's Negro Problem - and Ours . . .
(h/t to Norm Podhoretz . . .)

"You could easily run a small school at 80% of the costs of the school district: have the teacher/owners clean the school themselves instead of hiring custodians with defined benefit pension plans; have the head teacher double as the principal"

Help Wanted: Fred's Small 80% School is now hiring:

Teacher-Janitors. After teaching classes, supervising extracurriculars, grading and lesson planning, you get to pitch in and clean! Hours are 7 to 9.

Head Teacher/Principal. Along with all the above duties, you also have the administrative responsibilities of a Principal.

"Programs that have been proven to help poor black kids are highly-structured ones like KIPP."


Big quote walking:

" . . . Even if schools like KIPP are allowed to expand to meet the demand in the educational marketplace — all of them have long waiting lists — it is hard to imagine that, alone, they will be able to make much of a dent in the problem of the achievement gap; there are, after all, millions of poor and minority public-school students who aren’t getting the education they need either at home or in the classroom. What these charter schools demonstrate, though, is the effort that would be required to provide those students with that education.

Toll put it this way: “We want to change the conversation from ‘You can’t educate these kids’ to ‘You can only educate these kids if. ...’ ” And to a great extent, she and the other principals have done so. The message inherent in the success of their schools is that if poor students are going to catch up, they will require not the same education that middle-class children receive but one that is considerably better; they need more time in class than middle-class students, better-trained teachers and a curriculum that prepares them psychologically and emotionally, as well as intellectually, for the challenges ahead of them.

Right now, of course, they are not getting more than middle-class students; they are getting less. . . .

. . . The absence of any robust federal effort to improve high-poverty schools undercuts and distorts the debate over the responsibility for their problems. It is true, as the Thernstroms write in their book, that “dysfunctional families and poverty are no excuse for widespread, chronic educational failure.” But while those factors are not an excuse, they’re certainly an explanation; as researchers like Lareau and Brooks-Gunn have made clear, poverty and dysfunction are enormous disadvantages for any child to overcome. When Levin and Feinberg began using the slogan “No Excuses” in the mid-1990s, they intended it to motivate their students and teachers, to remind them that within the context of a KIPP school, there would always be a way to achieve success. But when the conservative education movement adopted “No Excuses” as a slogan, the phrase was used much more broadly: if that rural Arkansas public school isn’t achieving the success of a KIPP school, those responsible for its underachievement must simply be making excuses. The slogan came to suggest that what is going wrong in the schools is simply some sort of failure of will — that teachers don’t want to work hard, or don’t believe in their students, or are succumbing to what the president calls “the soft bigotry of low expectations” — while the reality is that even the best, most motivated educator, given just six hours a day and 10 months a year and nothing more than the typical resources provided to a public-school teacher, would find it near impossible to educate an average classroom of poor minority students up to the level of their middle-class peers . . ."

("What It Takes to Make a Student")

fred wrote:

"At 80% of the costs of public school, educational entrepreneurs will start schools to serve those students. Heck, I'd probably start one."

i posted this comment over at 11d and am going to bring it over here. what seems to be ignored in this is that, as far as private schools go, the tuition that is paid per student is normally only a portion of the total operating cost of the school. private schools rely heavily on fundraising, donations, and endowments.

and we're not talking about the door-to-door selling of candy bars and magazine subscriptions that public schools engage in. but rather: fundraising dinners that cost hundreds of dollars per plate, accompanied by silent auctions where donors will drop sometimes tens of thousands of dollars. and in the case of the catholic schools, the diocese provides additional financial support.

the private schools that perform well - and they need to in order to stay in business - do have big operating budgets. if they could operate on 80% of the public school cost, charge the tuition they charge, and get the same results, why don't they?

I think average spending per student are ca. 10k per year. The problems with this are

a. a school district does not save that much when a kid goes outside system, at best half (??)

b. so more than 5k in vouchers will not be politically viable, not in a mass program

c. some consumer make poor choices about their nutrition and pay too much for low quality food in fast food restaurant. Mind you, average low income consumer is much more capable of telling bad nutrition from good than tellig bad school from good.

It is more expensive to educate well children from disadvantaged families because a large part of good/bad school performance is the performance of parents, and vouchers of course will not change that. More precisely, there would be a segragation into parents who want well and are capable, and who will select sensible schools, parents who want well and who are not capable and who will select crappy schools, and parents who do not care and will leave the kids in the system (assuming that it is a very bad system), and the parents who mean well and are capable and whose children are in good programs of the bad system.

The good thing is that the segregation will be achieved by market forces rather than by governments, so it will be a good thing rather than bad.

"Forced bussing to overcome neighborhood segregation is the best bad example, but the court has injected itself into the classroom in many other ways, too, like due process, first amendment and school disciplinary procedures. Those are all valid issues, but those objectives frequently do compromise schools' ostensibly primary objective."

DAMN THAT SCOTUS! How dare they introduce constitutional issues into our public schools! If I wanted my children to learn about the constitution, I teach them at home or in church so they'll learn that most of the founders were ministers.

"The court requires government schools to tolerate all kinds of student and teacher behavior that harms the learning environment."

Here, here! There's nothing more damaging to young minds than learning tolerance of others' behavior (except maybe learning that "others" exist). We need to institute waterboarding in our public schools to deal with the unruly and the "different". And everyone knows that children learn best when they are severely beaten and living in fear for their lives!

"my presence in the black school didn't help any black kids learn trigonometry..."

I doubt anyone learns much of anything in your presence.

If schools were able to suspend and expel students easily, students would behave better. Those who were expelled would have to go to stricter schools until they shape up.

Or fall through the cracks altogether...perhaps those higher testing scores seen in other countries have something to do with a more laissez-faire attitude towards letting students 'exit the system' early? Somehow I doubt those countries that have managed to leapfrog us in terms of e(du)-peen are dutifully keeping track of early dropouts, and in some circumstances may encourage such behavior for troubled youths - especially in those nations with a greater collectivist mentality than here.*

* - This may or may not be bullshit.

Having kids drop out of the system who cause problems in the system is a tradeoff, one that we have for the most part denied in recent times to our own detriment. While as a policy preference I would prefer to just let them leave the system by themselves or at the end of a boot, we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking we've acted without cost by compelling their attendence.

Some specific advantages most private schools have over government schools is: less red tape for innovation, ease of firing underperforming teachers, ease of expelling abusive students, student and parent mentality that attendance is a privilege, not an entitlement.

This is just bizarre. No evidence in hand for the first two claims, and no evidence or even specific description for what those 'innovations' are. Iow, just more avoidance of speficis.

But what takes the cake are the last two claims: after being told that it appears that the only advantages private schools appear to be due to cherry-picking and more involved parents (iow, factors over which the schools have little, if any ability to influence), these are what as touted as 'advantages' of private schools.

Intellectual bankruptcy.

ScentOfViolets:

I completely agree with you about the points Matt made about private schools.

Kicking out abusive students gives away Matt's hand: the entire idea of vouchers is to essentially segregate the very worst, bottom of the barrel students into the public education system, and essentially give up on them from the get go.

It is kind of like claiming the fix to health-care is to just let the market take care of everything, ignoring the fact of course that this does nothing to help the uninsured.

Matt: all you are doing is essentially created an educational caste system using vouchers, which does nothing but create an even worse situation, and likely innocent kids will get hurt even more than they are today. You are not fixing the problem, but rather, like an insurance company, using vouchers to eliminate risky students from the other student populations. Provide with your solution for the at-risk students, and maybe I will start to listen.

The SCOTUS has reasoned that because government schools are government entitites, they have to submit to various provision of the Constitution that compromise the government schools' educational objectives for other public policy goals.

Like accepting all the students in the community. This is really the crux of the debate. If you let me accept or expel students at my own discretion, I guarantee you I can raise the test scores of any school in the country, regardless of whether it's a failing school or an excellent one.

All I need to do is toss out the poorest performers and my job is done.

That doesn't solve the problem of guaranteeing an education to all of America's children, though.

"I'm sure you think that you're racist douchebaggery is the product of being beaten up by black kids as a child."

Yeah, that was me, Freddie, getting beaten up in between football practice and karate class before I joined the Army Reserve at 17 and went to basic training between my junior and senior years of high school. I was a real wimp, as you can imagine.

In reality, I held my own or better in the few fights I had in the black high school, but having to walk around the school at Def Con 4 all the time was a distraction from academics. And, unfortunately, some of the anti-academic culture that predominated in the school rubbed off on me, since most of my friends were black (not that all black kids in the school were slackers -- there was a single black kid in my class who was a nerd and went to a top college).

And for the hundredth time, acknowledging the reality that there are differences in capabilities, on average, between different races does not make someone a racist; continuing to insist that it does makes you sound like a douchebag. Didn't you get schooled enough on this topic in the IQ and race threads on Megan's blog? Give it up already, it's lame.

"Teacher-Janitors. After teaching classes, supervising extracurriculars, grading and lesson planning, you get to pitch in and clean! Hours are 7 to 9."

Or you could have the kids do it and supervise them. Or do you think wielding a push broom is beyond the capabilities of the average high school student? I handled brooms, mops, and buffers just fine when I was cleaning Army barracks at 17.

"Head Teacher/Principal. Along with all the above duties, you also have the administrative responsibilities of a Principal."

You wouldn't need a bureaucracy to administer a school with, say, 80 students total. You could run a school that size with 4 teachers. At $8k per student, you could rent out office/class room space somewhere and put the money into recruiting and paying great teachers instead of infrastructure.

SOV and Brad, I'm not sure if you're serious or being funny. You doubt that government school districts have more red tape that inhibits innovation?? Imagine a teacher proposes holding classes six days a week. At most private schools it would require only the approval of the principal -- at public schools the whole district bureaucracy would be involved.

Most private schools have at-will contracts with their teachers. They can fire them for any reason. Teachers at government schools have collective bargaining agreements that require administrators to meet all kinds of evidentiary burdens before they can terminate an underperformer.

Brad, even government schools will eventually suspend and expel bad students. The only issue is how bad the behavior has to get before they get the boot. The burdens courts impose on schools before they can expel a student lead schools to tolerate fighting, spitting on other students, racial slurs, f-bombing the teacher, etc. Having worked in government schools, I've seen how disruptive (and sadly, common) that kind of behavior is. If government schools were allowed to have zero-tolerance or two-strike policies for things like spitting or racial slurs, I think they'd have less spitting and racial slurs.

As to your final question, if I were to design the voucher program I'd vary voucher amounts by household income and student profile. Students with special needs or behavior problems would get bigger vouchers because they require more resources, and to spur schools to accept hard students.

George Will has an interesting column about the upcoming Utah referendum on vouchers ("Liberal or Progressive, Same Old Nonsense"):

"In today's political taxonomy, "progressives" are rebranded liberals dodging the damage they did to their old label. Perhaps their most injurious idea -- injurious to themselves and public schools -- was the forced busing of (mostly other peoples') children to engineer "racial balance" in public schools. Soon, liberals will need a third label if people notice what "progressives" are up to in Utah."

Read the rest and we can discuss.


Comments closed November 14, 2007.

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