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When is Patriotism a Virtue

04 Oct 2007 08:09 am

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As promises yesterday, a post on patriotism, nationalism, left and right. Now it's true that you have some people on the left -- and some people on the libertarian right -- who adhere to genuinely post-national cosmpolitan views, but I think that's pretty rare. I was going to go through a whole elaborate introduction of new conceptual distinctions to say what I think separates mainstream liberals from mainstream conservatives, but I actually think you can break it down with a pretty simple analogy.

There were two kinds of Knicks fans in New York when I was a kid. On the one hand, you had people who wanted the Knicks to win, who therefore found Michael Jordan's global fame somewhat annoying, who and who learned, watching Knicks game after Knicks game, to appreciate what there is to appreciate about grind-it-out defense-oriented physical basketball. On the other hand you had crazy people who would insist that Patrick Ewing was the best center in the game, that Michael Jordan only seemed good because he got superstar calls, and were, generally speaking, completely out of touch with reality. The attitude toward America that conservatives like to champion is like this latter batch of Knicks fans -- not people animated by a special concern for our fellow-citizens and a special appreciation for our country's virtues, but by a deep emotional investment in a certain kind of national hagiography and myth-making.

The sort of investment in national mythos oftentimes has little-to-no relationship to actual concern for the nation's citizens. Normally, a country's best interests are served by facing up to basic realities that nationalists mythic narratives -- the Turkish nationalist idea that there was no Armenian genocide, the Israeli nationalist myth that there's no such thing as a Palestinian, etc. -- are committed to denying. Patriotism, by contrast, is about trying to genuinely look out for the best interests of one's country. The "dissent is patriotic" business often plays as a dodge, sometimes because it is, but the basic point is that if you care about your country, you'll want your country to avoid making mistakes, not step blindly behind whatever happens to be going on. Most of all, it means you need to see the world as it is. The Wizards defense is bad. No actual Arabs believe that American efforts at military domination of the Persian Gulf region are driven by a desire to spread the blessings of liberal democracy.

At any rate, Anatol Lieven's not an American at all, so he's neither an American patriot nor an American nationalist of any sort, but his book America Right or Wrong: An Anatomy of American Nationalism is very interesting on the subject.

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Comments (75)

I always liked the "grown up marriage" versus the "little kid and his mommy" analogy. The more liberal view is in a healthy, normal marriage with their country. They tell it when things are annoying, such as when America snores and picks its nose. They have an open dialogue about each other's faults and look for solutions, knowing that deep down, they love each other very much. Conservatives have more of a "mommy can do no wrong" attitude wherein if someone is criticizing mommy, they are bad and evil, because mommy is always right. Mommy is perfect, and if anyone suggests that mommy has cottage cheese thighs, there will be much stomping and crying and filibustering.

Surely Patrick Ewing was the best center in the game at some point.

Once again, careful analysis proves that liberals are rational, moral and good, conservatives are irrational, immoral and bad. Do liberals ever get bored with this game?

This glides over the question of authoritarianism-- the position that criticism of the government is, by definition, unpatriotic. This seems to be mainly a conservative trope-- particularly when linked to the position that any non-conservative government is, by definition, illegitimate.

Good post. I am glad you mentioned the Lieven book. His discussion of American Nationalism is excellent and worth considering.

Also, I like your Knicks distinction. The thing that I think everyone needs to realize regarding patriotism (love of country) is that how it manifests itself will also be somewhat dependent on worldviews. So if you are a conservative you will try to change your country in either a more free-market or “moral” direction (or preserve those elements), because you love your country and you believe those positions are best for your country. It is the same for liberals or social democratic types, you will try to expand healthcare or ameliorate rising inequality (or protect social security) precisely because you love your country. This is why the “love it or leave it” slogan is so offensive. Because wanting to improve your country is rooted in love for it.

but by a deep emotional investment in a certain kind of national hagiography and myth-making.

"Narcissistic nationalism".

max
['Close, but not quite right yet.']

Once again, careful analysis proves that liberals are rational, moral and good, conservatives are irrational, immoral and bad. Do liberals ever get bored with this game?

I'm sure you spend equal amounts of time calling out conservatives for playing the exact same game, right?

Because of course, when two groups believe exact opposite things, they obviously must be equally rational. And how foolish to believe that one's positions are more moral than the diametrically opposed position. Surely only a liberal would do that.

In reality, if anyone believes that conservatives' brand of flag-waving jingoism is actually healthy for the Republic, God help them.

The basketball analogy is interesting. If you are at a game, you will see fans that will support the home team no matter what. Every point for the other team is an explainable excuse. But you will also have annoying people wearing the opposing teams jersey and cheering on "their" team seemingly just to spite you. And then their are those of us who are there hoping to see a good game. Sure, we root for the home team, but just as easily appreciate a sweet play from either side. That, to me, is how politics should work. But I would never suggest that everybody should run to the middle. It wouldn't be much fun in the stands without the lunatics with bodies painted in celebration of the home team or the crackpots looking to get their a## for cheering for the other side. 9/11 got everybody behind the hometeam in the political stadium, and look what it got us. I wouldn't pay money to see that game again.

Your Knicks analogy brought back many (mostly painful) memories of my Knick fandom... I was certainly in the "out of touch" with reality crowd.

Re y81's comment "Once again, careful analysis proves that liberals are rational, moral and good, conservatives are irrational, immoral and bad "
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1)The terms "liberal" and "conservative" are themselves bullshit. There are some so-called liberals that whore to the superrich just as strongly as does Bush/Cheney.

"Liberals" who sell out the Democratic Party's constituents at every opportunity. Why else do you think the current Republican minority in the Senate can continue funding the Iraq War -- whereas the Democratic majority in the Senate was "unable" to block Bush's $2 Trillion tax-cut giveaway to the rich in 2001.

2) By contrast, there are some conservatives --like Pat Buchanan -- who have paid a personal price because they have strongly denounced Bush's disasterous imperialism.

Because a REAL patriot doesn't want to see his countrymen die in an unnecessary war in Iraq for the benefit of special interests. At the same time, "Liberals" Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, and John Kerry were voting to approve that war.

3) But the last thing the rulers of this country want -- and that their ass-kissing sycophants in the mass media will allow -- is an honest discussion of what's in the national interest. And who is betraying that interest for personal gain.

Would the left approach on nationalism then be to see America's role in the world as largely a bad thing? People who have concern for fellow citizens, but no belief that our nation exhibits any special virtues?

A comforting as this argument is, and as much as I do think that it contains a fair amount of the truth, I think you're missing a bigger difference, and ignoring an important similarity.

The biggest difference is that some people - and it doesn't break down cleanly on a left right basis - is that for some people concern for their country trumps every other moral concern, and for some people it doesn't. To use your analogy, the Knicks fans who would happily bomb the Bulls team plane, versus the normal Knick fans. Of course in the real world, there aren't many of the former type of fans, but there are plenty of that type when it comes to foreign policy. More on the right than the left, but to my disgust plenty of the them on the left as well, including your commenters who would be happy to bomb Iran, except for prudential reasons.

Another way that you could put it is that a lot of people temper their very real patriotism with at least a small dose of "genuinely post-national cosmopolitan views." That's a GOOD thing. At the risk of Godwinning myself, many of the German opponents of the Nazi's were quite patriotic, even strongly nationalistic, but there came a time for many of them just said enough! That love of Germany wasn't enough to justify the horrors that were being perpetrated.

The similarity is this - and really, here is where you aren't being charitable enough - there are real good faith disagreements about what is best for the nation. In a sense you are engaging in a (much less harmful) version of what the right is doing - they question the patriotism of people who disagree with them, you question their sanity. Now I happen to agree with you that some of the warmongers are crazy, but many of them are chillingly sane with horrendous goals.

Yeah, a little bit of humility wouldn't hurt. As they say: blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.

"Would the left approach on nationalism then be to see America's role in the world as largely a bad thing? People who have concern for fellow citizens, but no belief that our nation exhibits any special virtues?"

Not to speak for the "left", but my tendency is not to bother with false choices.

"What would Jimmy Stewart do?"

Would the left approach on nationalism then be to see America's role in the world as largely a bad thing?

I think the left approach is to say that our role in the world is not automatically good just because we're the ones doing it.

What I wonder, though, is how many people actually fit the description of blind patriotism which Matt articulates. Of the people who blindly support all of Bush's foreign policy decisions, how many of them blindly supported all of Clinton's foreign policy decisions as well? What some call "patriotism" ends up looking a lot like right-wing ideology wrapped in a flag.

Re LarryM's comment "The biggest difference is that some people - and it doesn't break down cleanly on a left right basis - is that for some people concern for their country trumps every other moral concern, and for some people it doesn't. "
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The fact is, there is NO conflict between common decency and love of country. That fact that liberal leaders have allowed Republican whores to suggest there is shows how those leaders betray us.

This "country" consist of the common citizens of this country. THEY don't beat the drums for unnecessary wars -- it is whores for special interests who do.

The common citizens of this country weren't the ones setting up dictators in the Middle East so that they could steal the oil -- it was whores for special interests.

Even Bin Laden acknowledged this -- but he said that Americans are responsible for the actions of our government because we elect that government. What Bin Laden didn't realize is that there's a massive propaganda apparatus --aka ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, CNN -- devoted to deceiving American voters about what our whores for special interests do.

War-mongering and vicious aggression is the same as terrorism. It kills hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, including women and children. It kills citizens of the country which wages it as well as citizens of the country against whom it is directed.

If you treat other nations with decency, their citizens don't cross an ocean and give up their lives just to strike at you. And you don't suffer 3000 dead, $2 Trillion in damages/military operations, and the loss of the Bill of Rights.

Al Qaeda is now our enemy. But we have far greater enemies among our own people. Some of those traitors were the ones whose acts created Al Qaeda. That's why our mass media -- and the 911 Commission --have refused to tell Americans WHY Sept 11 occurred.

Identification with a sports team, just like identification with a country, is based on a tribal instinct of needing to belong to something bigger than oneself. Maybe one of the differences between conservatives and liberals is that, on average, this tribal instinct is stronger in conservatives.

Therefore, in some sense it is probably true that conservatives are more nationalistic and patriotic than liberals, just as its true that they are less rational than liberals. Whether you view this as a good or a bad thing depends on what your values are.

Hearing a liberal insist that liberals are just as patriotic as conservatives is about as convincing to me as hearing a conservative insist that conservatives are just as rational as liberals.

Ineresting post, Matt. The basketball analogy is a good one but I think it's incomplete because when the team is doing poorly, both the "reality-based" fans and what we might call the emotionally attached fans are wont to admit that, well, they stink. It's not just the calls or this or that, they're legitimately bad.

You don't see a similar thing vis a vis our little adventure in Iraq, for instance.

Beyond that, though, I think that while both liberals and conservatives love the idealism of America, liberals love their country for what it aspires to be and at times has been. Whereas for conservatives, having and professing the ideals are enough; even if we can't reach them (and we never fully can), we are still better relative to others; still freer. Which may be true, though it doesn't make me feel any better about NSA snooping.

Justin: "Would the left approach on nationalism then be to see America's role in the world as largely a bad thing? People who have concern for fellow citizens, but no belief that our nation exhibits any special virtues?"

Why are these two connected? Must my views on the Constitution and the American legal system be linked to my views on American foreign policy?

Just because America does something does not make it inherently good. Nor does it make it inherently bad.

The right's attitude however has often been 'my country right or wrong', with the implication that 'my country' cannot be 'wrong.' They thus attribute to their opponents the exact opposite mindset as they hold themselves: America must always be wrong (as opposed to always right).

(As an aside, I always liked GK Chesterton's view on this: "'My country, right or wrong,' is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, 'My mother, drunk or sober.'")

Once again, careful analysis proves that the earth rotates around the sun. Do astrophysicists ever get bored with this game?

Does that make Don Rumsfeld America's Charles Smith?

Jordan was a guard, not a center. Go Bulls!

I think the opposing pole that you're looking for is "My country, right or wrong," in the way that you'd be for your family, right or wrong. My father--in the Navy and then college during Vietnam, opposed to the war but not marching--says that's the slogan of the anti-hippie faction that most struck him. I think it's a surprisingly powerful sentiment, understood sympathetically, even though it's one I don't share. I think--I imagine, I guess--that it's one that many (social, rather than economic) conservatives could get behind, because it fixes people more within their communities (largely held together by religion), the way people should be fixed within their families.

Whoops, faux facsimile beat to it, sort of.

(As an aside, I always liked GK Chesterton's view on this: "'My country, right or wrong,' is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, 'My mother, drunk or sober.'")

Obviously, I disagree with the take away from that, though I think that's not a bad of thinking about it. I think there are people who would walk away from an alcoholic (extrapolating here) parent, who was abusive, whereas others would feel it necessary to stay, and help them limp along. Putting it like that is supposed to make it seem obvious that one should help one's mother--but what if you can't? Does she cease being your mother? Do you abandon her? The "right or wrong" frame is supposed to make it seem like the choice is accepting or abandoning, and I reject that choice, but I think the heavy emphasis on accepting isn't completely bad.

If that makes any sense.

Hearing a liberal insist that liberals are just as patriotic as conservatives is about as convincing to me as hearing a conservative insist that conservatives are just as rational as liberals.

Tribal instinct isn't patriotism, though - its that proto-patriotism known as nationalism. If you were to say that the argument 'liberals are as nationalistic as conservatives' is unconvincing, you would have a point.

There were two kinds of Knicks fans in New York when I was a kid. On the one hand, you had people who wanted the Knicks to win, who therefore found Michael Jordan's global fame somewhat annoying, who and who learned, watching Knicks game after Knicks game, to appreciate what there is to appreciate about grind-it-out defense-oriented physical basketball.

Really? Honestly, these people sound just as crazy as the latter group.

No offense.

Well, here are the dictionary definitions.

Patriotism: Love for or devotion to one's country.

Nationalism: Loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.

Therefore, the primary distinction between the two is that patriotism is about the country whereas nationalism is about a "nation", that is, a culturally or ethnically defined group of people, which is often not exactly the same as a country.

I believe that the same emotional drives is behind both phenomena. Whatever it is that makes us get misty eyed when we hear the star spangled banner or see a Ken Burns documentary is the same tendency that I'm sure stirred the German masses when they saw Triumph of the Will.

I'm not saying its good or bad. I'm just saying that its primarily an emotional rather than a rational phenomenon.

It seems to me patriotism is something that is only truly expressed in moments of existential crisis. It all too easy to cast aspersion on one another's patriotism when the freedom of the majority is not abrogated in any true sense.

I think that sort of patriotism was on display for a short period following 9/11 and then was spent when almost half the country realized that the threat wasn't on an existential level that requires lockstep action to defend the country.

Should Bush decide to not relinquish power in January 2009, the supposed patriotism of those who have been his greatest supporters would be put to the true test. I have a sinking feeling that a good portion of those 35%ers would show their patriotism to be mere partisanship and would gleefully welcome the new order.

One more thing. I think the reason a lot of liberals are pushing back on the patriotism issue is that they see patiotism as an unalloyed good. Therefore, they need to argue that they are just as patriotic as conservatives. Well, I'm one liberal who I can guarantee you is much less patriotic than the average American. I don't know whether this is true of liberals on the whole, but I suspect it is. I think this is a good thing. It suggests that they are more rational and highly developed.

"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

-- Carl Schurz

What some call "patriotism" ends up looking a lot like right-wing ideology wrapped in a flag.

What Steve said.

I think Liberals make a huge mistake in even accepting the terms of this debate. Liberals are not more critical of the United States. We are critical of things we don't like, just as conservatives are. In the wake of 9/11, we should always remember that two great patriotic conservative stalwarts, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson said in no uncertain terms that America had the attack coming because of our tolerance of gays.

Would it be wrong to ask why these two men hate (well, hated because the "reverend" Jerry Falwell is currently roasting in Hell) America?

The only difference between the right and the left when it comes to patriotism is that the right is quick to accuse the other side of not having any and the left must bumble and stumble and say, hey, I love my country too, dissent is patriotic, support the troops by bringing them home, and all that crap.

Conservatives clearly don't love America right or wrong. They just love wars started by conservative presidents.

"Well, I'm one liberal who I can guarantee you is much less patriotic than the average American. I don't know whether this is true of liberals on the whole, but I suspect it is. I think this is a good thing. It suggests that they are more rational and highly developed."

Well, at least we have some honesty here. JimW is a true American liberal: confident in his intellectual and moral superiority, post-national in identity, etc. It's fascinating to see the Democratic Party meld together post-national, 'highly-evolved' liberals like JimW with Mexican-flag waving Chicanos and other Dem constituencies driven by group identities and grievances.

Don Williams,

Well ... I certainly agree that, in regard to the current unpleasantness, and if our policy makers over the past 40 years could see what consequences our policies have wrought, a different course would have advanced both "common decency and love of country." And I even agree that that is probably the case going forward as well.

But. Two points. There are times when that certainly ISN'T true. I mean, I can point historically to many, many occasions in history when nations did horrible things, and they benefited, on balanced, from those acts. Which leads to the second point - you are not going to win political arguments by merely taking the position that "common decency always leads tot he best results for the nation." Because people know that that is (sometimes) bullshit. If you concede that the prime concern s always "what's best for my country," then your country WILL do horrible things.

Now obviously making explicitly moral appeals, and arguing that those claims trump our national interest, is also a tough sell. But at least when making such arguments, one can sleep at night. And in the long run, if we are going to avoid some pretty horrific consequences, we are going to have to convince a majority of our fellow citezens that there are things that civilized nations just don't do, irrespective of the consequences.

One reason why I often make some pretty extreme statements about the horrifying place where we are heading is that I don't have as much faith as you do in the typical American citizen. I think they are complicit in the horrors that our nation has perpetrated. But really I think that touching on some dormant core decency in the American people is our only hope.

Fred,

Aren't you dead yet, you fucking baby killing monster?

Oh, and a reminder to the few people here who may not realize that Fred is an evil piece of shit. When I pointed out that the INEVITABLE result of his position was nuclear war in the middle east, he didn't deny it. That's what that freaking monster wants.

"I think the opposing pole that you're looking for is "My country, right or wrong," in the way that you'd be for your family, right or wrong."

The family analogy is an interesting one, and certainly a better one than the basketball analogy. I'd say the average conservative is like an adult child in his thirties or forties who realizes that while his parents haven't always been right about everything, they are decent people and they have tried to do what's best for their children. They also seem a lot smarter now than they did when he was young. The average liberal is like the adolescent child who knows he's smarter than his doltish, provincial parents and is embarrassed when they walk to close to him in public.

LarryM,

I have no idea what you are talking about. "Killing babies"? Were you watching the Sarah Silverman show last night? Perhaps you were corresponding with another "Fred"?

Re: "Well, at least we have some honesty here. JimW is a true American liberal: confident in his intellectual and moral superiority, post-national in identity, etc."

Why in the world wouldn't I be honest? I'm posting anonymously. I don't think I'm a true American liberal. I'm closer than the typical liberal to the "post national cosmopolitan" that Matt invokes. My point is just that, being more rational, liberals tend to hold views that are closer to this extreme than conservatives do.

That is, they don't think that just because they happen to be born in a particular country, that makes the country special in some way. Conservative Americans who are vehement nationalists are the same personality type as were vehemently nationalist Soviets or currently vehemently nationalist Iranians.

Fred,

You have, in the past, argued that we should take a far more brutal course in the middle east - basically endorsing a level of brutality that will convince our adversaries in the middle east to stop opposing our policies.

Historically, the level of brutality needed to achieve this goal is horrifically high. It involves the wholesale killing of civilians, including, yes, babies. (Parenthetically, even wholesale slaughter doesn't ALWAYS work - thus raising the specter of losing one's soul for nothing).

Moreover, given the sheer scale of the problem with the middle east (potentially, as our actions turn friends and neutrals into enemies), combined with the small size of our ground forces (in numbers, in historical terms, and for the counterinsurgency and occupation of a foreign country numbers, not firepower, is the main issue), the only option for the level of force that you and other war criminals favor is air power, a blunt instrument which historically has seldom if ever achieved the kind of goals that you advocate.

Which leads to nuclear weapons, and is why the policies that people like you advocate will lead almost inevitably there. Let's say that we let the bombs start flying on Iran, as you have advocated. Now, I realize that you profess to believe that Iran will just meekly surrender if we do that. I have a hard itme believing that you are actually that naive, but even if you are, obviously war is unpredictable; what if Iran does respond by escalating the war, by sinking our ships, or trying to, or ramping up the war in Iraq, or striking back in the United States? What then? We all agree that we don't have the troops to invade Iran; so what if air strikes don't work? What's the next step?

Now if you recoil from that next step, as you should, good for you. I might add that such fact should make you, perhaps, reconsider your bellicosity, but, more to the point, I'm pretty darn sure that the current administration, and at least one of the current presidential candidates, would not hesitate to escalate to the first use of nuclear weapons if the scenario that I outlines came to pass.

I think the opposing pole that you're looking for is "My country, right or wrong," in the way that you'd be for your family, right or wrong. My father--in the Navy and then college during Vietnam, opposed to the war but not marching--says that's the slogan of the anti-hippie faction that most struck him.

Equating the family and the nation is absolutely false and shows considerable perversity and confusion. You're stuck with your family in a way that you are not stuck with your nation, since the connection is in every sense organic. Nations can be changed like old shoes -- nearly everyone in the United States has at least one episode of that as part of their family history, except for the Native Americans (and you might say of them too that their "nations" were changed by force without their consent). People can go easily from country to country to country -- the mindless yap of "patriotism" is not that difficult to learn and mimic; any parrot can do it. Your family is not so easy to leave behind, though Americans are characterized by a mythology that it is.

I didn't actually mean my post to be a cariacature of the left, though I guess if you don't know I'm not a conservative, it would be easy to misread it. America's role in the world has rarely been better than "lesser of two evils" which is how I read the history of the cold war, and any current tension we have with China.

A while back, Andrew Sullivan posted that by torturing people in Iraq, America had squandered its good reputation in the world, the fact that we were known to be civilized and interested in freedom. My reaction was to doubt that we'd ever had the reputation of being the good guys (at least not since Vietnam). I took Sullivan to be making a characteristicly liberal point then. He was thinking we've historically been the sort of good nation that doesn't do this sort of thing. My reaction was that we did historically tend to do awful things, but it would be good if we stopped.

LarryM,

If you want me to engage in any sort of debate with you, respond to things I have written, rather than your own hysterical straw man mash-up of your perceptions. Otherwise, feel free to argue with your self.

Fred,

I have no desire to engage in a debate with you. I mean, should we debate with Bin Laden? I don't think we should, I'm sure you don't either. As far as I am concerned, you, and Cheney, and Bush, are in that exact category. Why would I want to debate with you?

But, just for shits and giggles, and for the benefit of the other people reading this, let me ask you this basic question. Do you deny advocating, with regard to both Iran and Iraq, and I don't recall your exact words, but let's not waste time on semantics, a policy of using far more force than we are using now, to convince our "enemies" to stop opposing our policies? And, if so, what do you MEAN by that? And how, exactly, is my characterization of your position unfair?

And as to why I engage you at all if I don't want to debate you, it's that I hope to cause you as much emotional pain as possible. That's a positive good in and of itself; but if it leads to you no longer sullying these threads with your presence, or, even better, if it leads to a major coronary, then I certainly wouldn't complain.

Equating the family and the nation is absolutely false and shows considerable perversity and confusion

Well, I think you're taking it stronger than I meant it. But I think your reaction is probably why it's a good way to put it. Conservatives--again, trying to speculate sympathetically here--see the community--the nation, most broadly, but also state, town/city, church, neighborhood--as having strong claims on what individuals do, and individuals in turn as owing much to those communities. At least, that's how I'd put a deference to tradition into this discussion.

I'd also say, in defense of liberals like myself, that we see a different set of claims owed to communities, a different kind of deference.

"Do you deny advocating, with regard to both Iran and Iraq, and I don't recall your exact words, but let's not waste time on semantics, a policy of using far more force than we are using now, to convince our "enemies" to stop opposing our policies?"

Well, let's see: On Iran, we don't seem to be using any force right now. I have said that, if diplomacy and non-military measures continue to fail to deter Iran's nuclear ambitions, that bombing their nuke sites at some point may be necessary. I still think that. On Iraq, I'm not sure at all what you are referring to. I think Petraeus's current approach of using force judiciously and increasing the use of "non-kinetic" sorts of operations (provincial reconstruction teams, etc.) makes a lot of sense and seems to be achieving some results. I wouldn't advocate using more force for the sake of using more force. Again, you may be confusing me with someone else -- or filtering things through your fevered imagination.

"And as to why I engage you at all if I don't want to debate you, it's that I hope to cause you as much emotional pain as possible."

Thanks for the laugh. This past Saturday I went to see a 25th anniversary screening of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Reading this line by you, I couldn't help picture Khan on the bridge of the Reliant when he tells Kirk (who's in the Genesis cave) about how he has "...done far worse than kill you. I have hurt you. And I intend to keep on hurting you..."

...not people animated by a special concern for our fellow-citizens and a special appreciation for our country's virtues, but by a deep emotional investment in a certain kind of national hagiography and myth-making...

I think this is the crux of the matter, and it ties in well with the attempts to make a distinction between patriotism and nationalism.

The Nationalist movements of the Nineteenth and early Twentieth Centuries were tied up in self-conscious efforts to preserve or resurrect national symbols, language, music, folk traditions, oral history and founding myths, etc. And to promote this identity among the working classes as a countermeasure against foreign influences and radical movements. Nationalism is the original identity politics.

Patriotism grows naturally out of a love and appreciation for your own country and its virtues. It's an honest sentiment that ties into our desire to belong to a larger community. It's a "grassroots" phenomenon.

Nationalism is inherently artificial. It's astroturfed patriotism. It's a deliberate attempt to construct a national identity and sell it to the masses. It's intended to market a brand and build brand loyalty. Patriotism tells you that America is a good place to live, and you should strive to keep it that way. Nationalism tells you that an American is a good thing to be, and anyone who says otherwise is disloyal.

I am a patriotic American. But I have no use whatsoever for nationalism. It serves a valid purpose for stateless ethnic groups scattered among foreign empires. Within a multi-ethnic democracy, it is a cancerous ideology that needs to be strongly opposed in the political arena.

Well Fred, it's just barely possible, I guess, that there is another right wing Fred who comments here - because I am quite sure that "Fred" advocated far more extreme measures than you did. If there is another Fred, my apologies. If you are the same thread, well then perhaps your own memory of some of your prior posts leaves a lot to be desired; I don't have time to search through Matthew's archives to solve the riddle.

Though I still think you you are misguided, to say the least. But I'm not too sure that further debate on that point would be productive, for reasons other than those set forth above.

thread = Fred

Can we all agree that Mark Daily was a patriot?

Once again, careful analysis proves that liberals are rational, moral and good, conservatives are irrational, immoral and bad. Do liberals ever get bored with this game?
Posted by y81 | October 4, 2007 8:36 AM

It would be boring, if the many lives conservative ideas have destroyed didn't keep getting in the way. But keep telling yourself it's just a game if it helps you sleep at night.

Can we all agree that Mark Daily was a patriot?

Well yes we can ... but that also indicates to some extent why some of us are leery of the term.

This is going to be a bit hard to articulate. People who favor war as a solution to problems* do so for a multitude of reasons. Some people really do so from motives which are "good," in the sense that they really do believe the ravings of people like Hitchens about the so called moral justifications for war.

But the fact is, the "moral" case for war is almost always bullshit, and often an obscenity (as it is currently IMO). It saddens me that someone with apparently very high ideals goes off to war and dies because he believes in the vile crap put out by a creature like Hitchens (much of which Hitchens probably doesn't even believe).

It saddens me, but I really don't think that much purpose is made by making a hero out of people like that. That's one of the reasons why we are in this mess in the first place.

The other thing that you have to keep in mind is this: by the same standards that you use to (correctly) call Mark Daily a patriot, many (not all) of the people fighting us in Iraq also deserve that label.


*I'm not saying war is NEVER a solution, I'm not a pacifist, I just happen to think that wars should be limited to strictly defensive situations; I'm not going to spend a lot of time defining "strictly defensive," except to say that it DOES NOT include defense of our "interests" in other parts of the globe, whether broadly or narrowly drawn).

How do yo love your country? I just don't get it. I think my country is pretty good in lots of ways and I would defend it if attacked, but how do you get choked up by old glory? It's like "true patriots" love some abstract ideal that is represented by the flag or the sight of our soldiers marching into battle. I can't get my mind around any kind of big enough abstract that would contain all our our country and it's history. How do you distill all that down into one abstract idea that you can then love?

There was also a comment about athoritarianism. There is a strong attraction to authority in the conservative personality. If fact, I think that is one of the main characteristic, if not THE main characteristic. I think that is why they tend to get choked up by military stuff--planes flying overhead, old glory, etc.. instead of other americana like riverboats or rock and roll or Moby Dick. THey are not patriotic like Walt Whitman was patriotic (although Larry Craig may be patritotic in a similar sense.)

And parenthetically, let me make explicit what was implied above. Many - most - people who favor war with Iraq and/or Iran, basically the whole sordid venture there, if you really examine their reasons in depth - and I'm talking about their DECLARED reasons - don't really do so for reasons which I, or any decent person, would consider "good." Oh, they may profess believe, or even really believe, that our presence in the middle east is a "good" thing for the people there, that we are bringing democracy and all that crap. I mean, it's hard to believe that an adult can really swallow that swill, but apparently many do. But even those people, when you get right down to it, concede that's not why they support the war - it's a side benefit (from their perspective). Most people, when you get right down to it, support the war because our "interests," broadly defined, in the middle east are threatened.

And what might those interests be? Hmm.

Matt's Atlantic colleague Robert Kaplan has an op/ed in today's Wall Street Journal that is relevant to this discussion ("Modern Heroes"). He writes about the preference in our media for victims over heroes, and how this is a result of the decline in American nationalism. A few excerpts:

"The cult of victimhood in American history first flourished in the aftermath of the 1960s youth rebellion, in which, as University of Chicago Prof. Peter Novick writes, women, blacks, Jews, Native Americans and others fortified their identities with public references to past oppressions. The process was tied to Vietnam, a war in which the photographs of civilian victims "displaced traditional images of heroism." It appears that our troops have been made into the latest victims."

[...]

"Feeling comfortable with heroes requires a lack of cynicism toward the cause for which they fight. In the 1990s, when exporting democracy and militarily responding to ethnic and religious carnage were looked up upon, U.S. Army engineering units in Bosnia were lionized merely for laying bridges across rivers. Those soldiers did not need to risk their lives or win medals in order to be glorified by the media. Indeed, the media afforded them more stature than it does today's Medal of Honor winners. When a war becomes unpopular, the troops are in a sense deserted."

[...]

"while the U.S. still has a national military, it no longer has a national media to quite the same extent. The media is increasingly representative of an international society, whose loyalty to a particular territory is more and more diluted. That international society has ideas to defend--ideas of universal justice--but little actual ground. And without ground to defend, it has little need of heroes. Thus, future news cycles will also be dominated by victims.

The media is but one example of the slow crumbling of the nation-state at the upper layers of the social crust--a process that because it is so gradual, is also deniable by those in the midst of it."

The WSJ. Why am I not surprised?

Well Fred, one could argue (I would) that, too the extent that that editorial is true, it's a (VERY) good thing.

Sadly, I see very little evidence that it is true. The press is, by and large, center right when it comes to foreign affairs. Looking from the position of the lunatic right, that may seem insufficiently nationalistic, but right now I'd wager that the median voter is more anti-war than the median reporter. Of course, this fact is masked to some extent by the truth that, on cultural issues, the press really is left of center.

Now the press probably is a little (only a little) less nationalist* than it was in some prior wars, e.g., WWII, but, aside from not being a bad thing IMO, the quoted editorial gets the reasons for that fact at largely wrong. But the article does get one thing right: "Feeling comfortable with heroes requires a lack of cynicism toward the cause for which they fight."

Now I happen to think that, by and large, the press is no more cynical (and perhaps even less so) about the cause than the average American citizen. But where you and I really differ is as to whether that cynicism is justified.

*it's less nationalistic in the sense that it's more likely to do real reporting, and report accurately, as opposed to merely disseminating propaganda, than it was in (some) prior wars. Admit it Fred, that's what this is REALLY about. Smart war supporters don't REALLY think that war reporting is inaccurate; they don't WANT accurate reporting, they want propaganda.

Of course, from my perspective, there is still WAY to much of a tendency to accept government propaganda, even if it has been worse in some prior wars.

"Surely Patrick Ewing was the best center in the game at some point." Posted by Steve

Not really. He was voted first team all NBA one year, but didn't deserve it. He was almost as good as Olajuwon that year - like Karl Malone getting the MVP for being almost as good as Jordan.

Olajuwon was better for most of his career. By the time Olajuwon started fading, Shaq and Robinson were both better than him.

Make no mistake, he was very good. He was just usually second best, sometimes third or fourth.

"Nations can be changed like old shoes -- nearly everyone in the United States has at least one episode of that as part of their family history..."

I doubt many of our ancestors considered their move to America as simple or easy as changing an old shoe -- there was the expense and danger of coming here, the struggle to survive in an era when there was no welfare state or government safety net, the struggle to learn a new language (in most cases), etc.


"People can go easily from country to country to country"

Depends where you live and where you're planning to go. A lot of countries are less welcoming of immigrants than ours is. Some countries don't even let you leave.

It's true though, that where it is possible for folks to easily migrate to greener pastures, this doesn't lead to feelings of increased patriotism or nationalism. Opposite examples abound, for example the separatism and disdain for local mores common among the Muslim immigrant populations in countries like The Netherlands. This is somewhat self-reinforcing though: the relative lack of patriotism/nationalism among the Dutch led to them being more accepting of immigrants who didn't share or respect their values; these immigrants, in turn, aren't particularly supportive of their new country.

A related point that you touch on but don't quite make is that patriotism is more deeply rooted when the nation is more literally an extended family or tribe. America's diversity, no longer homogenized by "melting pot" experiences, weakens feelings of patriotism and nationalism.

Surely Patrick Ewing was the best center in the game at some point.

When Ewing came into the league, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was. When Ewing left, Shaq was.

During the years between Kareem's retirement (1989) and Shaq's arrival (1992), perhaps he was. Though you could certainly make a case for David Robinson as well.

I might add that this would also entirely depend on what you want from a center. If you wanted to win, people like Bill Cartwright and Bill Laimbeer, who did not play the position as it was traditionally conceived, where nonetheless better people to have on your team than Patrick Ewing.

All men are created equal.

That's the quintessential American value underlying our revolution and our Constitution.

That means all men and women, not just American men, not just straight men.

That's the difference between liberals and conservatives.

It's also the difference between Christian Conservatives and liberal Christians (Sermon on the Mount Christians).

Dilian Esper,

What about Hakeem Olajuwan? He was awesome. If my memory is correct, his team beat the Knicks in one of the greatest finals ever.

If speaking specifically of Iraq, does patriotism really matter? I credit all parties with working for what's in the country's best interest. Neocons think we should secure vital (to us) areas of the globe by installing liberal (in the U.K. sense) consensual forms of government that they think tend to be less hostile than totalitarian dictators. Liberals (in the U.S. sense) seem to think our national interest is in using milder methods (like the pre-war sanctions, NY Times advertisements or harsh words at the Oscars) to address totalitarian governments that brutalize their citizens. I can’t see how patriotism matters to how you come down on that.

What does it mean in general to be patriotic? The basketball and marriage analogies are poor and, as usual, lead to an overly conclusive & under-analyzed result.

Why not talk about the thing itself and ask what it means to be patriotic to a leftist and to a conservative. Does a leftist consider patriotism the support of a country that, at its best, protects the poor, the victimized, the needy against the wealthy and powerful. Does a conservative consider patriotism the support of a country that, at its best, protects liberties against majoritarians and statists?

Oops. I see Njorl already mentioned him. Never mind.

So Fred, since you are either a new Fred, or old Fred but taking his meds (i.e., you are wrong but rational today), let me ask you a question:

Just why do you think that the kind of nationalism that you are "defending" is a good thing? I mean, I see a lot of words trying to describe what it is, and how it's been eroded, but not many (any?) words defending it as a good thing.

Mind you, I'm familiar with some of the defenses, but I'm curious what yours is. In my more cynical moments (i.e., all of the time), the only "defense" that I can think of is that your brand of nationalism makes it easier for a nation to prosecute unpopular and unjust wars. But I imagine you have something else in mind.

And please, try to stay away from the false dichotomy of your brand of nationalism vs. no attachment at all to one's country, especially since it's reasonably clear that you well know that there is a continuum.

Beautiful picture of Navy Pier. From the Yearly Kos convention?

Re the WSJ editorial: Heroes aren't always in the military. The United States has had lots of heroes, and not all of them have been soldiers.

Ah yes, heros... Let us sing the old songs celebrating thier brave deeds, the blood they spilt, thier glory shining brightly as the sun reflecting off a polished shield.

Chances are that if you are a Lefty "patriotic dissenter" that calls America "the most evil, racist country on the planet, born in genocide and baby-killing" - you are no patriot.

Chances are that if you "support the troops" - to the extent that you wish to save the poor children in uniform too lazy & stupid to get into college from killing innocent brown babies and send them home safe with their mommies again -
you are no patriot.

Chances are that if you see dead soldiers only as useful tools to spread an anti-war, anti-America message, of coffins and mock cemeteries as photo-opportunity, and victims instead of honorable, brave men -
you are no patriot.

This glides over the question of authoritarianism-- the position that criticism of the government is, by definition, unpatriotic. This seems to be mainly a conservative trope-- particularly when linked to the position that any non-conservative government is, by definition, illegitimate.
Posted by MattF

The only thing wrong with your theory is that it is the Left that wants government authoritarianism - keep the children safe from peanuts and candy and soda with more regulations, force adults to wear helmets or heavily fime them - than conservatives do.
Conservatives distrust government. And no, Bush is no conservative. He is hated by true conservatives, who want less government and less governmental meddling in America's culture and institutions devised by a free people and by democratic consent.
Conservative's patriotism is based on deep regard and respect for present US institutions and culture, whereas Liberal patriotism, such that it is, is based on the belief that America's deeply flawed institutions and culture are fixable by government and by dedicated experts the government can use to guide the masses into a life that is better for them.

****************************

Hey Ford, no mistake about you, you evil piece of shit. Die painfully in a fire please. Soon.

I don't hate America. I just hate fucktard conservatives and rednecks who think they are America. What social conservatives have done in America is to define themselves and their social groupings as the "real America." Theirs is not the America of Ben Franklin, Frederick Douglass, Martin Luther King, Susan B. Anthony, Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan, FDR and so on. It is not the America that John Lennon and Albert Einstein adopted as their own. Their America, the "Real America," is the America of "Praise God and Pass the Ammunition." It is the America of those who claim a bunch of deists tried to found a Christian nation, that a bunch of Supreme Court decisions (especially Brown v. Board of Education) were horrible, that certain people have to know their place. In their America, a symbol of treason like the Stars and Bars is an American symbol. The coasts who look down on racism, sexism and homophobia are thus not part of that America. Hollywood is un-American, yet they pay to see their films. Intellectuals are un-American even if they've never read a book in years. Muslims are un-American even if they've never met a Muslim in their life. In their America, sometimes they even think Jews have horns. I feel no shame for hating this America. If this makes me a know-it-all adolescent, then fine. Why should I care what a bunch of rednecks think anyway?

People can go easily from country to country to country -- the mindless yap of "patriotism" is not that difficult to learn and mimic; any parrot can do it. Your family is not so easy to leave behind, though Americans are characterized by a mythology that it is.
Posted by sunsin

Spoken like a postmod, transnationalist Jew.
The reality for most people is that they develop roots to family, neighborhood, nation and do not easily migrate unless they have strong economic motives to do so, and are in a position where they CAN do so.
A rootless, nationless people sees nations differently - as constructs of convenience that exist based on "how good a deal they are" for people that think all nations are required to take them in.

America's diversity, no longer homogenized by "melting pot" experiences, weakens feelings of patriotism and nationalism.
Posted by Fred

Absolutely correct.

The more we allow transnationalists, globalists, cosmopolitans to rule us, the less tranquil and cohesive America will be. No roots or loyalty to country was not called the Jewish blessing. It was called the Jewish Curse.

LFP - Nationalism is inherently artificial. It's astroturfed patriotism. It's a deliberate attempt to construct a national identity and sell it to the masses.

No, it is ancient and comes from a unifying ethnicity or a unifying culture bounded by norms and laws agreed to by the masses.

LFP - It's intended to market a brand and build brand loyalty.

Switching loyalty to nations is not like changing soap brands, and I am unaware of an advertising campaign any nation conducts to attract immigrants.

LFP - Patriotism tells you that America is a good place to live, and you should strive to keep it that way.

Well, yes. Because when a nation with high civilization crumbles, the result you get is the Dark Ages, Warlordism,

LFP - Nationalism tells you that an American is a good thing to be, and anyone who says otherwise is disloyal. I am a patriotic American. But I have no use whatsoever for nationalism.

I think what you are saying is not that you are a patriotic American, but a patriotic global citizen with loyalty to no nation.

LFP- It serves a valid purpose for stateless ethnic groups scattered among foreign empires.

No, you confuse "nation" with the tribalism that some stateless or nation-rejecting religious or ethnic groups profess.

LFP Within a multi-ethnic democracy, it(nationalism) is a cancerous ideology that needs to be strongly opposed in the political arena.

That is old thinking that Jews and other transnational progressives preach that once you get rid of nationhood and national norms that you don't have anymore wars because no nations with nationalism are left to fight one another. It ignores that most wars happen within a multiculti context as differing tribes and ethnicities fight to separate. Civil Wars. Almost always bloodier than wars between nations. Once you sever the "glue" that binds multi-ethnics together in a democracy - the "melting pot" of shared norms, values, language, team commitment to nation and it's institutions, you are all but guaranteed to go the way of Yugoslavia unless you decisively defeat your "diverse" opponents and FORCE them to stay in the Union of different peoples.


Posted by LaFollette Progressive


Ow, 'ere we go...(Line from the original "Casino Royale" movie)

As a radical Transhumanist and anarchist, I am SO FAR ABOVE playing the "patriot" game nonsense that it truly isn't funny.

Nobody should "love" a country - ANY country - for ANY reason. You should LIKE a country if by living there you get a modicum of security, economic opportunity, sex, whatever is important to you. You only "love" a country like you "love" ice cream - which means the last thing you will ever contemplate is sacrificing or risking your life for it (absent an immediate threat to you if said country is in fact in danger of being attacked by people who will not like YOU and will treat YOU badly - and even then, if "your" country is actually the one at fault, you should leave or turn "traitor".)

Unfortunately, not being a sports fan (I'm not stupid, you see), Matt's analogy doesn't work for me. The only relevant sports comment I can come up with is an acquaintance's remark once that if we nuked the the local university stadium, most of the morons in town would be eliminated.

Todd's analogy was pretty good. I always liked to listen to the depression that occurs on the morning talk radio shows when the home team lost its shirt the previous day. It's like the jingoists and Iraq - cheering it on before, then dropping in the polls daily as it all went to shit. Then repeating it all over again for the next game, er, war.

"My country, right or wrong, in the way that you'd be for your family, right or wrong."

That of course is the problem. Your country is NOT your family. More importantly, the STATE - not the nebulous abstraction or aggregate collection of other morons referred to as "your country" - is NOT your family. Even the average family gets more arguments from its members than that.

"Your country" does not exist, just as "society" does not exist - in PERSONAL terms. Your "society" and your "country" - in some cases, even "your family" - is that loose group of people who associate with in work, play, whatever - plus the overall economic and political environment your group exists in (which might be within one national boundary, or could these days spread over several national boundaries) Your biological family certainly does exist (assuming any are still alive.) But again, even there, your connections with your family can range from intense, frequent and loyal to none and outright hostility.

Actions are either correct or incorrect in achieving some goal. Having a rational goal and having some knowledge of "the way things work in reality" is the only way to judge whether actions are correct or incorrect. Nothing else is relevant - certainly not emotional attachments to abstract entities which exist primarily and precisely to confuse you as to what is correct or incorrect for the purposes of gaining control over you.

And "country" or "state" or "religion" are the three elements most used to do that. (One could add in "race" or "ethnicity" - why is "black is beautiful" considered rational? Is it "empowering?" Or is it just divisive?)

No sentient entity relies on such abstracts to govern his perception of reality or his actions - which includes his perception of himself and his species.

Bottom line: NO form of "patriotism" is correct - ever.

In the movie, "Red Dawn", Patrick Swayze is questioned by one of his rebel compatriots over the shooting of a captured Russian soldier. He is asked, "What is the difference between them and us?" (if this soldier is executed.) Swayze replies, "Because we live here!"

Not really a good answer. The best answer would have been, "Because they executed US civilians and intend to take away our 'freedom' - such as it is."

In 1967, I enlisted in the US military and was sent to Vietnam. This was seriously stupid on my part. As I said in another thread, I have no objection to popping any identified enemy who is a threat to me. But in this case, I enlisted in a military and was sent to a foreign country to shoot some guy I didn't know and who was not an identified personal threat to me. Fortunately, the necessity to do so did not arise during my tour. Had it arisen, however, I would have killed anyone attempting to kill me - which in fact would have made me a war criminal under my present view.

Now there are situations where I could see going to another country and shooting someone who was not an identified personal threat to me. For example, I could see going to Pakistan and shooting bin Laden - for money if not grins. I could see going to Israel and popping Olmert - for money and grins.

My criteria in such cases is that the target is someone who has killed - or authorized the killing of - people who were not combatants and who were in some reasonable sense "innocent" of the conflicts in which these individuals are major actors. Other criteria involves who I assess was the "initiator" of force in the conflict.

And by the way, although I hold an extreme view of who is "personally responsible" for someone's death - namely, the guy who pulled the trigger - which means I don't exempt US soldiers from being war criminals - I also don't exempt people who "authorized" or "promulgated" or "enticed" someone to be a threat to someone else. An enemy is an enemy at any level. If someone wants me dead or injured, I want them dead or injured. It's that simple. I don't care if he wears a suit or a uniform - or a priest's robes.

You'll notice that this means quite a few people in and out of the US government - and most other governments - fit my criteria of people who ought to have a bullet put in their head. In fact, it includes quite a few people who aren't even in a government or even in a group actually using force somewhere.

Now beyond that "necessary but not sufficient" criteria, there is also the criteria of "which of these people are REALLY a threat to me"? i.e., which of them are actually in a position to do me any harm such that I NEED to react to them?

That cuts the list way down, practically speaking - unless, of course, I'm offered money to take them out.

bin Laden is little threat to me given the odds that one of his attacks is likely to hit me. The same is true of Iran and pretty much all other foreign countries, except Russia and China who have nuclear weapons and delivery systems able to deliver them to the US West Coast (and possibly North Korea with its subs.) The notion that most of the countries with whom we are presently at or contemplating war with are actual "threats" to the US is laughable. None of them are.

9/11 was probably the most effective terrorist act ever committed. It was also irrelevant to the circumstances of the United States. Other than the loss of revenue and impact on the economy caused by grounding the US air fleet for days, and of course the cost of the New York cleanup, etc., basically it was a one-day - or maybe one-week or one-month - wonder. Six years later, and it's utterly irrelevant in economic or military terms.

Except that some "patriotic" assholes decided to use it to commit the country to war in not one, but two, and now upcoming THREE and possibly FOUR (if the US gets involved in Syria), countries at once. To the tune of several trillion dollars, thousands of dead US soldiers, and hundreds of thousands of dead civilians in those countries under attack.

This is crime on a mass scale. This deserves not jail time, but execution. This is not "patriotism". This is mass murder. People who organized, controlled and advocated for these actions are mass murderers - and they are a direct threat to many people in the world, if not directly me - yet.

Which means they need to be taken out by any means necessary. Naturally, it would be better if they could be taken out by political means. It would be cheaper in money and lives.

Doesn't look like it's going to happen.

Of course, the alternative doesn't look like it's going to happen either.

So I guess we're just going to get more of the same.

Big surprise. You're humans.

Re: The common citizens of this country weren't the ones setting up dictators in the Middle East so that they could steal the oil -- it was whores for special interests.

This type of rhetoric is depressing and turns me off from the Left (despite holding generally progressives ideas and loathing today's GOP). We did not "steal" any oil. Every last drop was bought and paid for at market rates-- or above market rates, actually, during the period when OPEC managed to make its cartel power work. Secondly, I am not aware of any dictators we have set up, unless you consider the rather ineffectual government of today's Iraq. We have, it is indeed true, supported some dictators (like Mubarrak), but they have set themselves up in power first. We aren't omnipotent; the Left seems to buy into that myth as much as the Right, except the Left sees our power as malign. But in reality most stuff that happens in the world happens without our say-so and we are just reacting to it, not controlling events. Ok, did someone say the Shah of Iran? Um, he was a monarch, not a dictator, and was the legitimate (if decidedly megalomaniacal and illiberal) ruler of the country before the equally megalomanical Mossadegh* came along. Now, I'm willing to frown a bit about the US (given our own origins) propping up monarchs in despite of popular will, but in the larger scale of things it's hardly that major of a deal, and it also happened before most people today, in Iran or the US, were even born. So can we tone down the rhetoric and stick to reality, where there's plenty enough to criticize without grossly exaggerating things long dead and over?


* The Iranians, since the days of Darios and Xerxes in fact, seem have a thing for grandiose egomaniacs as rulers.

Jim W.:

Excellent point. Hakeem also swept Shaq the next year.

Patriotism? Get serious. Think:

The Flushing Remonstrance

"America is the only country ever founded on a creed." -- G.K. Chesterton

The Knox Trail

"We hold these truths to be self-evident... "

Valley Forge

"What hath God wrought?" -- Samuel F.B. Morse

Col. Chamberlain & the 20th Maine

"It is for us, the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced." -- Lincoln

"Mary had a little lamb... " -- Thomas Edison

Belleau Wood, Bataan, Omaha Beach, Guadalcanal, Bastogne ("Nuts" -- Gen. McAuliffe)

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." -- Winston Churchill

Free Europe, The Marshall Plan, Japanese Reconstruction

Chosin Reservoir

"... to assure the survival and success of liberty." -- John F. Kennedy

Khe Sanh

"Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed." -- Neil Armstrong

Fall of the Soviet Union, Free Europe II

"We win, they lose." -- Ronald Reagan*

* and NO, he wasn't talking about the Knicks.

-30-


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