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Actual Crime Control

21 Nov 2007 09:50 am

Speaking of the crime issue, I should say that while I think the United States has gotten unduly complacent about crime since the big "crime drop" of the 1990s. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to get the murder rate back down to 1950s levels if we try, and I think there's pretty good reason to believe that sustained further reductions in crime levels can help create a situation where our ludicrously high prison population can start coming down. What's more, I think we actually learned a lot during the 1980s and 1990s about effective crime control strategies. McMegan waxes vague:

On the other hand, "culture matters" doesn't get you very far as a poverty eradication program; no matter how much money you give welfare mothers, they'll still be on welfare. And "they're poor" has proven to offer little in the way of crime-reduction strategies; we've been much more successful with things like more police on the beat.

And, indeed, there is good evidence that more police officers helps reduce crime. What's more, though I really, really, really don't think Rudy Giuliani should be elected president, the Compstat system he and William Bratton implemented appears to be a helpful way of deploying the cops you have more effectively. And, indeed, Bratton is currently following up his successful runs in Boston and NYC with successes in Los Angeles and all this presumably has something to do with his methods (i.e., things that can be copied) rather than with his Batman-style crime fighting abilities.

What's more, as I somewhat reluctantly concede in this article, mass incarceration, though cruel and expensive, is somewhat effective as a crime-control strategy. Meanwhile, another big part of the 1990s story is that while welfare handouts may not reduce crime (this is a bit unclear, since welfare goes overwhelmingly to women and crime is committed overwhelmingly by men -- the gender gap also being a good reason to doubt that objective material need is the key variable here) wages for unskilled workers are an important determinant of crime rates in a way that's pretty intuitive -- if there's more money to be made working, you're ceteris paribus more likely to spend time working, and when you're behind the desk at CVS you're by definition not robbing anyone.

Relatedly, while I don't really believe that improved educational attainment is the key factor in curbing inequality, better performance at the bottom end -- fewer high-school drop-outs in particular -- could do a lot to reduce crime. Similarly, high-intensity early childhood interventions seem to work.

Last, while we spend a fortune on locking people up in prison, we also have all these parolees who are being supervised in a very bare-bones and largely useless manner. Something more expensive than traditional parole -- something like "Coerced Abstinence" -- would be way cheaper than full-time incarceration but way more effective than what we're doing now.

Photo by Flickr user Hisgett used under a Creative Commons license

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Comments (35)

"when you're behind the desk at CVS you're by definition not robbing anyone."

Have you seen the prices at CVS lately?

Thank you. Thank you. Remember to tip your waitress.

when you're behind the desk at CVS you're by definition not robbing anyone.

proof that Matt has never worked retail.

You probably aren't robbing the customers (unless you "accidentally" wind up with their credit card), but robbing your employer is quite common.


I appreciate the randomness of the pictures with which you illustrate your posts, Matt. This pic, of Kilmainham Gaol in Dublin, is one of your better choices. ; )

How you can write a post on crime without mentioning the insanity of the drug war is beyond me.

What Kurt M. said.

"There's no reason we shouldn't be able to get the murder rate back down to 1950s levels if we try, and I think there's pretty good reason to believe that sustained further reductions in crime levels can help create a situation where our ludicrously high prison population can start coming down."

We could restart executing murderers at the rate we were doing in the 50s and earlier instead of having them taking up space by staying in prison for 25+ years.

Uh, yeah, what Curt M. said.

We only have mass incarceration because we imprison so many people for possessing marijuana and because of the crack/cocaine disparity. One way to fix the crime problem would be to decriminalize marijuana and make it the lowest priority for cops, lower than saving a cat from a tree. This is what they did in Seattle and the law was heavily backed by the police chief and the department. When 80% of all drug arrests, and most arrests are drug arrests, are for marijuana possession you are wasting the PDs time.

Also states need to create reintroduction programs and actually fund them so that released prisoners can be brought back to their communities with a support network to keep them from falling back through the cracks. If we want to reduce crime on a permanent basis and improve communities we have to redefine incarceration as something other than the warehousing of individuals that society can't deal with.

What Armando and Curt said. The current high incarceration rate is, I believe, largely a result of ridiculous Federally-instituted mandatory sentences for drug offenders.

Interestingly enough, last year the serious crime rate in Los Angeles fell to its lowest level in FIFTY years, matching the rate last seen in 1956...

In 1956, Los Angeles was almost 90% white-European, being (probably) the least non-white-European major city in America. Today, Los Angeles is (probably) almost 90% NON-white-European, being the LEAST white-European major city in America. Yet the crime rates are now identical.

All the numerous anti-immigrationists who hang out on this web site really should start examining a little empirical reality before they grow too absolutely committed to their world-view.

"and when you're behind the desk at CVS you're by definition not robbing anyone"

...unless you're selling them perscription drugs. ZING!

"and when you're behind the desk at CVS you're by definition not robbing anyone"

...unless you're selling them perscription drugs. ZING!

"What's more, though I really, really, really don't think Rudy Giuliani should be elected president, the Compstat system he and William Bratton implemented appears to be a helpful way of deploying the cops you have more effectively."

And here I thought you watched The Wire.

We could restart executing murderers at the rate we were doing in the 50s and earlier instead of having them taking up space by staying in prison for 25+ years.

Death row inmates make up what percentage of our jail population? I'll wait here while you do your research. Here's a hint: it's really quite small.

Oh, and what Curt M said. Really. Man, I miss the days when ending the senseless war on drugs was the most important policy change for which to push.


Oh, and what Curt M said. Really. Man, I miss the days when ending the senseless war on drugs was the most important policy change for which to push.

True. Its amazing that the reason this is no longer the case is that our government just came up with even more terrible policies to oppose.

The genius behind Compstat was a Transit Police Lt. that Bratton promoted to NYPD Deputy Commissioner named Jack Maple. Sadly he died a few years ago of cancer, he was a quite character.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/anniversary/35th/n_8551/

First of all re: the compstat success story, crime dropped precipitously in every major American city over the same period, regardless of whether compstat was being used or not. The end of the crack epidemic is a much better explanation for the drop than policing strategies, although is may be true that compstat played a minor role.

It is also probably true that mass incarceration reduces crime IN THE COMMUNITY, to the extent that those who are incarcerated, coming from impoverished communities to begin with, are much more likely to be arrested and convicted for crimes because of the increased police presence in their neighborhoods, the fewer legit job opportunities available, and the lack of decent legal representation. Whether they are more likely to actually commit crimes is a more open question, but probably they are, owing to the lack of legit jobs.

But if you were to incorporate in crime statistics the rate of assaults and other crimes IN PRISON, I bet you'd find that there is not, in fact, an overall reduction in crime, or at least not one nearly as large as the numbers seem to suggest. Of course, we don't do that, because we don't, as a society, care very much what happens to the people we lock up; we don't really think of them as full people (and, of course, they can't vote most places). (A little digression -- as a former social studies teacher I always had students who argued that Washington and Jefferson shouldn't be condemned for owning slaves, because at the time, no one really thought it was wrong. Aside from the inaccuracy of that statement even wrt white people, I was always struck by the failure to consider what the slaves thought -- it seems obvious that slaves, who, at the time of founding, represented 20% of the non-Native population, thought slavery was wrong. The failure to consider crime in prison in statistics feels similar.)

Lastly, it's pie in the sky, I suppose, but it seems to me if you really want to lower the crime rate, especially in urban centers, you need to create good paying jobs. Van Jones in Oakland talks about a green mission -- start vast urban construction projects to put solar panels and other efficiency equipment on every city office building and home (I think Tom Friedman even wrote about this recently). Others have suggested a reprise of the New Deal projects, to repair and/or replace much of the nation's infrastructure (witness that bridge in Minneapolis).

But of course, as Curt implied, ending the war on drugs would also be a good place to start. It's been a loser since the beginning.

Let's talk about solutions other than better policing or parole, is my point.

When did Fez Whatley become an FSU law prof?

"wages for unskilled workers are an important determinant of crime rates in a way that's pretty intuitive"

So, given that unskilled immigration lowers wages for domestic unskilled workers, does that mean that you will stop demonizing opponents of unskilled immigration by saying they "hate brown people"?

Adam,

You're right about prisons just being a place where criminal can easily brutalize other criminals and that most people don't have a problem with it. One of the few things I commend Bush for is setting up a Prison Rape Elimination Commission to tackle this issue(though they're taking their sweet time coming out with a report). http://www.nprec.us/

Another issue is we imprison the mentally ill instead of treating them. Whether someone is sent to a prison or a mental hospital after they commit a crime is beside the point (though both should be safe, humanely run places). The issue is there are so many undiagnosed or untreated mentally ill walking the streets who don't get any attention from authorities until they harm someone else. What's the great stat Harpers magazine came up with--- both today and 100 years ago, the state had custody of just under 1% of the population (around 7/10th of 1 percent IIRC). The difference was 100 years ago, 75% of those in state custody were in mental hospitals and 25% in prison. Today 95% are in prison and 5% in the hospital.

We should be giving psych evaluations to troubled students and anyone arrested for a minor crime. If we spent more on mental health now-- (whether on therapy or medication, hell even meditation classes would help) and make treatment, if necessary, a condition of probation-- we'd spend much less on the criminal justice system later.

So, given that unskilled immigration lowers wages for domestic unskilled workers, does that mean that you will stop demonizing opponents of unskilled immigration by saying they "hate brown people"?

Hmmm... given that the data do not support this assertion, I'm going to go with no. Actually, given that among the reasons that some businesses like using undocumented workers is that they don't enjoy the same workplace protections as documented workers (guaranteed minimum wage, safe working conditions, and the right to bargain collectively, for instance), I think you're beginning to make a compelling case that granting citizenship to undocumented workers would help reduce crime among the poor.

"mass incarceration, though cruel and expensive, is somewhat effective as a crime-control strategy."

As was slavery, I imagine...

After reading this post, I'm wondering where you get off accusing Megan of vagueness.

"Hmmm... given that the data do not support this assertion..."

Thanks for saving me the trouble of reading the rest of your comment. That first sentence indicates you are immune to facts.

I saw somewhere that it would be cheaper to send a convict to Harvard than it is to pay for his incarceration in prison.

Yet the Republican attitude toward spending money for inner city and rural schools is what??

Thanks for saving me the trouble of reading the rest of your comment. That first sentence indicates you are immune to facts.

No problem, I wouldn't want to tax your intellect.

(Of course, if you'd like to actually produce evidence in favor of your assertion - facts, if you will, I'm all ears.)

PS When I referred to sending a convict to Harvard, I was referring to the yearly cost of a Harvard education vs the cost of keeping a convict in prison for a year.

Good post.

Is that picture from the Italian Job [original]? It looks straight out of the Italian Job.

Let's see now, "welfare goes overwhelmingly to women and crime is committed overwhelmingly by men" but it's a "bit unclear" whether welfare payments reduce crime?

It's a mystery, all right.

In 1956, Los Angeles was almost 90% white-European, being (probably) the least non-white-European major city in America. Today, Los Angeles is (probably) almost 90% NON-white-European, being the LEAST white-European major city in America. Yet the crime rates are now identical.
All the numerous anti-immigrationists who hang out on this web site really should start examining a little empirical reality before they grow too absolutely committed to their world-view.
Posted by RKU

Leave it to a Jew to lie.

LA crime rates identical to 50 years ago? Not by any stats. Better than in black dominated cities like NOLA, Detroit, Flint, Camden and St Louis?

For sure.

Jews have always been at the vanguard of Open Borders movement from Emanual Cellar and his 1965 Immmigration Reform Act to Jews heavy involvement as "immigration lawyers" that seek to maximize 3rd world "family reunification" in their new country of America. Lefty Jews always saw blacks and 3rd worlders as valuable to leverage Jewish political power through groups like the NAACP and unions set up by Jews for such people to be guided by wiser Jews and vote accordingly.
And of course as cheap labor and customers for Jewish businesses and slumlords.
And if a country suffers, no biggie - transnationalists and cosmopolitans simply leave the wreckage of Russia or S Africa behind and move to places of better economic and political power opportunities. If America wanes from 3rd Worldization, there is always China or India on the horizon..

*********************
With crime, there are other factors:

1. The "Roe Effect" where unwanted children from dysfunctional homes are aborted rather than survive to grow up and become violent thugs.

2. Flight from the most dangerous neighborhoods, leaving the barbarians other barbarians as their most convenient, if not renumerative, targets.

3. The welfare effect, which Matt alluded to, also meant that it was harder for thugs to call their own mammies "fools" for working a regular low-wage 9-5 job as they transitioned off parasitism. Making it harder to stomp another thug's or potential thugs mammy for just working to put food on the table and having 50 bucks on her.. And increased law enforcement has finally penetrated dumb ass skulls in teaching them economics - only 700 people make money playing basketball in the whole country, a drug dealer assistant has a high risk of being whacked for a job that averages out - with jailtime - to below min wage except for topdogs.

4. After 40 years, all the various excuses for criminality and low educational attainment in the underclass are pretty well filtered through the "bullshit screen". Del-Ron shot Mustafa Ibrim cause of "lingering hurt about slavery" ? BS. LaShonda stabbed Lakisha because of societal racism instead of Lakisha wearing a 500 buck gold necklace that LaShonda's ex-BF gave her? Even ghetto knuckleheads say BS.

Matt has assembled a bunch of ideas, but really, you might just as well believe something strongly and come out ahead.

For example, would welfare be cheaper than imprisonment to prevent crime? Well, we spend about $18,000 annually to imprison a person, easily twice the average welfare grant.

We spend about $3000 to arrest and book a person, and that pretty much makes them unemployable, thus severely reducing the future income taxes we will collect from them, so reducing arrests is a big item.

We've made it harder for them to get jobs, but we would still save huge amounts by simply pardoning and releasing every marijuana prisoner who was employed when they were arrested. Those people never posed any problem to society in any way and it's a real shortcoming of modern "liberalism" that it can't deal with this situation.

Of course, all of this still leaves the Bush gang in office, so it may be that saving money on our taxes or not getting our car stolen is just a small part of the big picture of our lives.

"What's more, as I somewhat reluctantly concede in this article, mass incarceration, though cruel and expensive, is somewhat effective as a crime-control strategy."

Mass murder works well. Costs less, too.

Why not just execute everyone?

Less chimpanzees for me to deal with.

Seriously, justifying mass incarceration based on the notion that it is "somewhat effective" is simply stupid. You want to reduce the REASONS people do crime, not just the number of people physically able to do crime.

There is one and only one way to lower crime - produce a social system that produces individuals who can function within that social system. Meaning a system that produces individuals who are guaranteed the skills and the opportunities to survive within that social system. This entails modifying how children are raised, how they are educated and trained. In addition, the social system, the economic system and the political system have to be such as to allow people of all types to survive.

None of that is being done as of now. Neither will it ever be done.

So the only differences you're going to see in crime rates going forward are general effects of changes in the economy and changes in laws passed which increase or decrease the number of people labeled criminals and the sentences they are handed.

Nothing whatever is being or will be done about the underlying reasons for crime because the people who run this country want it that way.

Like war, crime is the health of the state.

It is a matter of perspective. People hiding behind "sophisticated" computer models in order to grant AAA bond ratings to paper backed by subprime mortgage junk is the free market in operation, and it is not larceny, apparently.

Everything Matt mentions is just window dressing compared to the benefits that would be gained if drugs were legalized.

Re: There is one and only one way to lower crime - produce a social system that produces individuals who can function within that social system.

Sounds good in theory but in practice I don't think anyone knows how to achieve that goal with anything approaching 100% effectiveness. Like it or not we are going to have sociopaths among us wreaking harm, and we have to figure out what to do with them.


Comments closed December 05, 2007.

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