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Asimov and Population Density

29 Nov 2007 12:27 pm

200px-The-caves-of-steel-doubleday-cover.jpg

For today's nerd break, let's consider Isaac Asimov's The Caves of Steel, an excellent sci-fi novel sadly undermined by a failure to really grasp population density. The setting for the novel is a future version of earth in which the existence of advanced technology has failed to stem a decline in living standards (on the planet Earth, that is, the Spacers are better off than we are). The trouble is that the proposed population of Earth -- 8 billion -- is way to low to produce the effects Asimov is concerned with. Humanity, in this vision of the future, lives in giant, mostly underground mega-cities the better to leave the surface of the planet available for the exploitation of natural resources. As Wikipedia explains:

The eponymous "caves of steel" are vast city complexes covered by huge metal domes, capable of supporting tens of millions each. The New York City of that era, for example, encompasses present-day New York State, as well as large tracts of New Jersey.

But here's the thing. Present-day New York State encompasses 54,520 square miles and present-day New York City contains 27,000 people per square mile, so you'd be talking about 1.47 billion people in New York alone. And that's ignoring the "large tracts of New Jersey." What's more, that's Asimov's NYC has the same population density as present-day NYC. If instead you assume it contains Manhattan's 66,940 people per square mile, you could fit 3.652 billion people in New York State (again, we're ignoring the New Jersey Sectors). But Asimov suggests that the population density of his NYC should be even higher than that:

To be sure, something had existed in the same geographic area before then that had been called New York City. That primitive gathering of population had existed for three thousand years, not three hundred, but it hadn't been a City.

There were no Cities then. There were just huddles of dwelling places large and small, open to the air. They were something like the Spacers' Domes, only much different, of course. These huddles (the largest barely reached ten million in population and most never reached one million) were scattered all over Earth by the thousands. By modern standard, they had been completely inefficient, economicaly. [...]

For that matter, take the simple folly of endless duplication of kitchens and bathrooms as compared with the thoroughly efficient diners and shower rooms made possible by City culture.

People live in some pretty small apartments in Manhattan, but they haven't adopted collective kitchens. Nevertheless, even sticking with the Manhattan assumption, the single City contains over 1/6th of the world's population and it's not even the biggest City. Under the circumstances, it's very hard to imagine what could have compelled people to adopt the City revolution with hyper-density measures like collective kitchens. If the entire United States had the population density of an inner-ring suburb like Westchester County you could fit almost 8 billion within our borders.

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Comments (90)

Thomas Sowell made a similar point once. If you do the math, you will see that the entire world could occupy Texas at a population density of 32 people per square acre. In other words, each family of four would get a house on 1/8 acre, which is the normal size in a lower middle class American suburb.

> If the entire United States had the population
> density of an inner-ring suburb like Westchester
> County you could fit almost 8 billion within our
> borders.

Asimov grew up as a city kid(*) with virtually no contact with nature or rural areas until he was in his 20s, and he always preferred the dense city environment. That preference leaks into or sometimes just tramples through his writing.

That said, from an engineering perspective dense downtown-Manhattan type developments are efficient and scalable. It is true that when you concentrate large numbers of people in, e.g., highrises the food in/waste out and energy in/waste heat out problems are substantial. But they are solvable and those solutions will scale up to a very large size.

Modern American suburban development patterns, OTOH, are neither efficient nor scalable. As we are probably going to learn to our sorrow over the next 20 years. Both New York and Chicago for example had (and may still have) underground railroads dedicated to bringing fuel and food to buildings and hauling trash away. In the exurbs it is getting to the point already where garbage trucks have to drive so far to dump their loads that they can barely operate - and the fights over trash transfer stations are bitter.

So I would say the higher density is actually more possible than the lower density. Though I doubt you could actually put 1 billion people within a constricted area.

Cranky

{*) He claimed to remember nothing of his first 2 years in small-town Russia.

IIRC, Caves of Steel featured one megacity that ranged from Boston to DC.

Apparently Asimov was not terribly rigorous with his math. Oh well! Book is still worth reading.

Pretty funny. I never even noticed that obvious numbers-density error when reading Asimov, though admittedly I was in Elementary School or whatever at the time.

It's a little strange that a quantitative fellow such as Asimov was so careless. Scaling Earth's population up to something like 100B or something would have certainly helped to fix the problem and wouldn't have hurt the plot in any way.

Manhattan-dwellers may not literally have "collective kitchens" yet, but most of those I know might just as well, for all the cooking they do in their little closest-sized kitchens. They support collective kitchens known as take-out places.

"32 people per square acre"

I've always wanted to live in a hypercube.

"collective kitchens"

In fact, I believe that was common pre-WWII in New York. My prewar apt came with a no-longer-functional dumbwaiter, which was used, we've been told, to receive meals prepared in the kitchen in the basement.

I've been told (Teh Google is letting me down here) that there used to be fire regulations against cooking indoors in Manhattan apartments.

Problem with science fiction in general -- mapping directly from a physical problem to a social/political solution. Greater population --> hive-like megacities! Asimov's classic Night Falls is possibly the silliest example of this (despite being, actually, not a bad story).

On the more general point, Cranky is correct: Rising fuel costs and environmental issues generally are going to make dense cities look a lot better as the 21st century progresses.

I love the cover of that book. Obviously done by an emotionally troubled teenager.

> It's a little strange that a quantitative
> fellow such as Asimov was so careless.

Asimov started out as a chemist and moved into biochemistry and medical education as his academic career wound down (in favor of full-time writing). However I don't think he ever claimed any special talent as an analytical chemist, and I have known many research chemists who are quite good at figuring out chemistry but terrible at math - once they get the basic idea figured out they hand it over to some p-chem and analytical grad students to verify the numbers.

As far as I could tell Asimov was primarily interested in sociotechnical ideas and never did any calculations to back up the details (unlike Heinlein who was famous for solving detailed Newtonian equations to verify that his character really could get from Jupiter to Venus in the time alloted in the story).

Cranky

1980s Bucharest had collective kitchens. Perhaps Ceausescu read Asimov?

At least Asimov was consistent. His future Earth had 8 billion people in several independent megacities. His future Galactic capital, Trantor, had 40 billion people in one huge city that covered the entire land mass of the planet (though, to be fair, he never specifies the surface area of Trantor).

The 8 billion number is a little interesting to me, because that is near the figure some good minds at the oildrum have concluded will be the maximum population ever reached, occurring sometime in the next generation, and then declining to 2 billion by the end of the century.
Whatever.

Perverse Imbalances ...Michael Perelman

A limited and preliminary historical survey of economic analysis of the relationships of resources, politics, urban & rural areas. Clink on red link, doc file, but safe.

cw-

I was just thinking how awesome that cover was! Glad I'm not the only one.

If SF books still had cover art like that I'd likely buy more of them.

Yes, everyone could live in Oklahoma. But trying feeding them, or providing them with enough energy, metals, lumber, etc. Hasn't anyone read Jared Diamond's "Collapse"? It's more than population: it's what that population uses, and the environmental degradation is causes, to support a First World lifestyle. Diamond makes a compelling case that we are already living off "environmental capital," and just bringing the Third World up to First World standards, even if population doesn't increase, will be impossible.

If I remember correctly... wasn't a lot of the Earth's surface radioactive in Caves of Steel? That would change the density calculation somewhat...

Urban dwellers -- and "educated" college graduates -- have NO idea of the infrastructure needed to support them. How farms work, for example. Or transport systems. Or the fuel refineries/electrical grid/pipelines supporting the transport systems and cities. You know -- all that stuff in "fly over" country.

Take a New Yorker without military service ,stick his ass in the middle of wilderness, and see how long he survives.

The new Will Smith movie "I Am Legend" shows a better idea of how New York City should be remodelled.

While I don't think its numbers were ever mentioned, Gibson's BAMA sprawl feels like a more accurate vision of the future of urban life.

Oh, give it a break, Don.

I've worked on a farm. Have you?

Fact is, NYC has the lowest energy use in the country. (5,000 kWh residential electricity per person, compared with 15k or more in places like Texas.) Close to half of all transit commutes in the country take place in the NYC metro area. We generate the bulk of our electricity within the city boundaries, and had the foresight to buy easements for the upstate watershed early in the century. Generate greenhouse gases at about a third the US average rate. Etc.

Yes, of course we depend on the rest of the country -- in fact, the rest of the world -- for food and lots of other stuff. But you know, Iowa ain't self-sufficient either.

Come on, Matt. It's not the science that draws people to Asimov; it's the elegant prose.

Even if Asimov's numbers are a little fuzzy, I think the story needs to be judged on its own merits. I haven't read it since junior high, but I remember enjoying it very much. If we had to judge every sci-fi novel by whether or not it hewed to rigorously plausible science, we wouldn't have much to read.

Not that I don't think about these type of things when I'm reading genre novels. I just try not to let it get in the way of enjoying the book.

@ Don Williams:

Well fuck you too, Mr. He-man. Those un-tanned bearskin underpants chafing you?

Re pitkin's comment "Yes, of course we [New York City] depend on the rest of the country "
----------
Well, that's one way to put it.

My way would be to note that NYC --like Washington DC -- is a bloodsucking leech on the productive sectors of this country. Manhattan largely survives by conning the rest of the country out of it's life savings -- and sharing the loot with Washington DC (Capitol Hill,actually) in order to avoid any legal problems. Kinda like the mob's loan sharks and extortionists buying off the police.

The trouble is that the proposed population of Earth -- 8 billion -- is way to low to produce the effects Asimov is concerned with.

Maybe it's a typo and he really meant 8 trillion.

All right you pissy SOB's, leave Asimov, New York City, and Iowa alone.

Asimov is about the story, Matt, who gives a shit about his calculations.

"The new Will Smith movie "I Am Legend" shows a better idea of how New York City should be remodelled."

What a horrible thing to say.

"But you know, Iowa ain't self-sufficient either."

Quit picking on Ioway or I'll give you such a pinch...

My way would be to note that NYC --like Washington DC -- is a bloodsucking leech on the productive sectors of this country.

Yeah, we have more than our share of pirates, it's true. But there's a lot more to NYC than Wall Street. And more to the point, the fact that the I-bank fuckers (who I despise every bit as much as you do) have set up shop in NYC has exactly nothing to do with the environmental advantages of dense cities.

So you've never actually worked on a farm, right, Don?

Scott de B.: At least Asimov was consistent. His future Earth had 8 billion people in several independent megacities. His future Galactic capital, Trantor, had 40 billion people in one huge city that covered the entire land mass of the planet (though, to be fair, he never specifies the surface area of Trantor).

He does, actually: 75m square miles, yielding an absurdly low population density. In Second Foundation the figure is revised upwards to 400b: still on the low side compared to New Jersey, let alone Hong Kong. The same problems plague the population figures given for the Galactic Empire, the dates given for various events in Galactic history, and the ages of characters. (Arcady is given two different ages at different points.)

Asimov, sad to say, was a pretty sloppy writer, his hordes of teenage admirers notwithstanding.

Of course, Don forgot to mention the ohter part of the bargain. You know, the part where D.C. sends out black helicpoters to spy on God-fearin', heartland sorts like him and NYC sends out "recruiters" to try and turn all of his kids queer.

Sorry, I meant the population figure is revised upwards form 40b to 400b, not the area.

The really weird thing is that New York City had about as many people in it when Asimov grew up there as it does now. So he should have grasped the numbers better. But maybe it was like that old "New Yorker" cover joke: he just didn't think the rest of New York State was much bigger than New York City, if at all.

Of course people have collective kitchens in Manhattan. We call those people "roommates."

As for the debate over whether Manhattan understands Iowa, all I can say is that I've lived in NYC for close to a decade now and I have yet to find someone who's milked a cow. Mind you, I don't go up and ask every person on the subway.

I don't understand Don William's problem with New York City. In some sense all of America is a "bloodsucking leech", as the places with high agricultural production import fuel from other places and other countries. Let's see some country yokel like Don try and refine his own gasoline. I don't think you'll find he can do it. What is the relevance of refining gas? Nothing more than the relevance of farming, really. Can't drive your tractor without fuel, or fertilize your crops, or move crops to market, etc.

Ironically, though, the inverse is true of "blood sucking leeches" since most of the hinterland is on welfare of some sort or another. NYC contributes far more to govt. coffers than it takes out, and those noble farmers have been on welfare since the 30s. Those are the real "leeches".

Mrs. D. milked cows, which is one of the reasons she's a city girl now.

The state's monopoly of violence and system of laws is what keeps things from degenerating out there in the country. These things are adminstered in cities, always have been. (To say nothing of the books and other entertainments that help pass the time out on the open spaces; these also tend to be products of densely-populated areas. Shakespeare was born and died in Stratford but worked in London.)

Lemuel, do you think the things you do like about New York (whatever they are) would be here if it wasn't either the or a (in order to avoid debate about London) capital of global finance?

I don't think the wikipedia article is accurate - my understanding is that the New York City megacity would be roughly comparable in size to the New York metro area - it makes little sense to imagine it extending to Buffalo and Plattsburgh, and I don't recall Asimov suggesting any such thing.

the places with high agricultural production import fuel from other places and other countries

And that's not even mentioning how they get things like, oh, water in a lot of places.

Re freddiemac's comment "I don't understand Don William's problem with New York City."
----------
A few hints:

Hillary Clinton
Rudi Giuliani
Chuck Schumer

A few more hints:

The Great Depression
Hedge Funds
Alexander Hamilton

Fact is, NYC has the lowest energy use in the country. (5,000 kWh residential electricity per person, compared with 15k or more in places like Texas.)

You see the same thing in Sweden, where the majority of citizens live in apartments. It's a lot cheaper to heat one large apartment building with say, 90 units, than it is to heat an equal number of houses.

Given the number of huge McMansions in the South, West and Midwest, it may even be cheaper than in NYC.

BTW, Don, NYC has been a net payer of income tax (i.e. paying more in taxes than receiving in spending) for decades. A leech sucks blood, it doesn't return it.

BTW, Matt. I know you've referred to the other boroughs as the "bridge and tunnel crowd," but NYC has five boroughs, not one.

Given the number of huge McMansions in the South, West and Midwest, it may even be cheaper than in NYC.

Make that "it may be even cheaper in NYC."

And oh yes -- the Yankees.

Mr Don Williams,

Are you trolling this site? What does Hillary Clinton have to do with New York City? She isn't from New York, and represents the entire state, including rural upstate. The Great Depression? Are you seriously blaming the Depression on New York? What's wrong with hedge funds or Alexander Hamilton? Are you some sort of communist?

Re "What does Hillary Clinton have to do with New York City? She isn't from New York, and represents the entire state, including rural upstate. "
------
My relatives (by marriage) in upstate New York just collapsed with laughter.

Yep, it sure nice to know that all those donations and votes from Utica are gonna sweep Hillary into the White House.

Are they worse than Lott, Inhofe, Stevens, Dole, Rockefeller, Tancredo, etc? Get off your bizarre high horse Don.

"My relatives (by marriage) in upstate New York just collapsed with laughter."

Good to hear. You do know she won the upstate vote last election right?

Steve, obviously you are right that you don't know much about Iowa, since you think people there milk cows. For starters, most of the agriculture in Iowa is corn, soybeans, and hogs; some people do raise cattle in western Iowa, but that's relatively speaking a small number. So even people in Iowa who work on farms probably don't milk cows.

But the bigger misconception is that many people in Iowa work on farms at all. As a former resident of the state, I knew that very few people worked directly in agriculture (I didn't know anyone who did, and only a couple who had), but I just looked at the statistics and even I was surprised. According to this link, only 4510 people in Iowa work in "Farming, Fishing, and Forestry" occupations. That's out of total employment of almost 1.5 million and a total population of about 2.9 million. Even if you think farmers somehow don't show up in the statistics, since the total employment given is roughly half the state population, there's really no way farmers could make up even 5% of the people in the state.

"My relatives (by marriage) in upstate New York just collapsed with laughter."

Ah yes, because your relatives obviously represent the entirety of upstate New York.

Nice that you avoid all other points I made, it shows the vapid nature of your arguments. You must be a troll then. Please go annoy the National Review or something.

do you think the things you do like about New York (whatever they are) would be here if it wasn't either the or a (in order to avoid debate about London) capital of global finance?

Absolutely. The economic dominance of finance is a relatively new phase in New York's history. As recently as the 1960s, it was a major manufacturing center. New York is a great city despite Wall Street, not because of it.

The essential features of NYC are (a) density, (b) immigrants, (c) excellent public infrastructure, and (d) a generally liberal, tolerant culture and politics. That's compatible with lots of economic models. Like Don Williams, I hope to see a day when the financial industry is much smaller and less profitable than it is today. Unlike him, I'm confident that NYC will still be the place talented, ambitious people come to from all over the world.

Steve, obviously you are right that you don't know much about Iowa, since you think people there milk cows.

What are you talking about? The point of my comment, and it wasn't meant to be some kind of serious thing, is that I'm from the Midwest and, unlike all my neighbors in NYC, I've milked a cow. These people do not know the difference between Michigan and Minnesota, and I mean that quite literally.

If you want to play some kind of gotcha game with me in regards to Iowa, I guess we could do a round of soybean trivia or something, but it doesn't sound like much fun. Detasseling corn stopped being sexy about the time Cindy Crawford quit doing it as a summer job.

"Quit picking on Ioway or I'll give you such a pinch..."

Don't you see, Rihilism? That's why he picks on Iowa.

I do have to say that I've been in both Iowa and NYC and of those two I was only able to find a chocolate egg cream in NYC. (now, Ri, come give us a pinch).

"The Great Depression
Hedge Funds
Alexander Hamilton"

Well then, the real question is, who does Don think is behind this trio - is it the Jews, or is it the Freemasons?

I think you've just outed yerself as a Paultard, buddy.


" wasn't a lot of the Earth's surface radioactive in Caves of Steel?"
That happened in Robots and Empire the 3rd sequel to Caves of Steel which (unfortunately) merged the robot and Foundation universes.

Y'all really could follow the links at 12:58 to the Perelman paper. Mumford v Jane Jacobs, Carey vs Alfred Marshall on urban industrial centers (Carey disapproved of westward expansion), and a whole lot of Karl Marx.

"Capitalist production collects the population together in great centres, and causes the urban 'population to achieve an ever‑growing preponderance. This has two results. On the one hand it concentrates the historical motive power of society; on the other hand, it disturbs the metabolic interaction between man and the earth, i.e. it prevents the return to the soil of its constituent elements consumed by man in the form of food and clothing; hence it hinders the operation of the eternal natural condition for the lasting fertility of the soil. Thus it destroys at the same time the physical health of the urban worker, and the intellectual life of the rural worker. [Marx 1977, p. 637]"

Try the 1970s book "Stand On Zanzibar" by Bruner for a great dystopian SF novel with a firm grasp on population density. The title comes from the total world population which could stand on the island of Zanzibar (assuming 1 square meter per person). This population is assumed to generate enough environmental damage and resource overuse to ruin quality of life.

I would've preferred a picture of Gladia on the cover, but she doesn't arrive till the sequel.

McManus, I've read far more Perelman and Marx than you ever will and let me tell you: neither of them have one minute's patience for the fantasy of rural self-sufficiency that Don Williams is peddling. (And while there are many things we can still learn from Marx, I'm not sure soil chemistry is one of them.)

Re Shawn's comment "I think you've just outed yerself as a Paultard, buddy."
------------
Or something that probably a strange concept to you -- an educated person.

The greed of New York City's financiers have exerted a malign influence on American politics -- and America -- since the founding.

The Constitutional Convention here in Philadelphia was supposed to be a simple negotiation of interstate trade. Alexander Hamilton turned it into a counterrevolution -- so that the United States could be "run by the people who own it".

After the delegates were sworn to secrecy , Hamilton in fact proposed that the US government be overthrown and replaced with a constitutional monarchy -- saying that the government of King George III (renowned for its corruption ) was the best on earth.

The problem with such "elites" has been amply demonstrated by the Gilded Age of George W. They run any decent state into the ground because they care only for their own short term interest. They build nothing. They preserve nothing.

Even Wall Street's inhouse propagandist -- the hilarious Ron Chernow -- notes that the Great Depression was brought on when the crap game in Manhatten got out of hand --see Chapter Sixteen of "The House of Morgan"

Personly, I think the disaster in "I Am Legend" is more likely to hit the USA not because of a pandemic --but because some hedge fund executive in Manhatten snorts a line of coke once too often -- and bets come on the dice.

"McManus, I've read far more Perelman and Marx than you ever will and let me tell you: neither of them have one minute's patience for the fantasy of rural self-sufficiency that Don Williams is peddling."

Lemmy, cite where I defended Williams or rural self-sufficiency or go get an attitude adjustment.

Re pitkin's comment "neither of them have one minute's patience for the fantasy of rural self-sufficiency that Don Williams is peddling "
------------
And only New Yorkers are so divorced from reality that they join the Sierra Club in droves while advocating a massive increase in US population via importation of 30 million immigrants (plus the illegal ones.)

Only New Yorkers join PETA -- while serving the products of despicable factory farms at their dinner parties.

Only New Yorkers sneer at hunters -- and are ignorant of how hunters are the primary group trying to preserve animal species by buying habitat and Game Commissions to protect them. See the Nov 2007 issue of National Geographic.

You have all the appreciation for the environment of fucking Martians. That's why sporting goods stores can sell you so much overpriced, impractical ridiculous crap for "hiking" in the woods.

The entire land around you for 30 miles resembles a rotten cantaloupe being devoured by mold.

Can you provide any evidence that Hamilton proposed a monarchy? Given that he stopped counter-revolutionary Aaron Burr from trying to secede parts of the US, it seems highly unlikely. Additionally, he was an instrumental author of the US Constitution. So whatever you may allege happened in secret, in print he was a champion of democracy (see the Federalist papers). That allegation alone tells me that you are not the educated individual you claim to be, but highly ignorant.

Secondly, to blame Wall Street financiers for the Great Depression is absurd. One could make far more plausible theories that the French government's ruination of the German economy had more effect on the global downturn.

The New York City paradigm will never spread far in the USA. We reject it for the same reason our bodies reject disease.

> And only New Yorkers are so divorced from
> reality that they join the Sierra Club in
> droves while advocating a massive increase
> in US population via importation of 30 million
> immigrants (plus the illegal ones.)

Don Williams has apparently not even driven through the rural midwest in the last 30, if not 50, years. The Iowa/Illinois Corn Belt reached its maximum _absolute_ population (let's not even mention rural/urban percentages) around 1890 and has been going down steadily ever since. The Great Plains are even more depopulated.

And the idea that the central, agricultural part of North America could have been settled without the machine shops, railroads, and even evil banks of New York City is ludicrously naive.

Cranky

I'm curious Don, where are you from? Just curious where people get such laughable notions that "only New Yorkers join PETA" and "only New Yorkers sneer at hunters".

Heinlein made similar underestimates in the 1950s -- in "Farmer in the Sky," the heroes emigrate to a moon of Jupiter because of the vast over-crowding of Earth with its 5 billion people.

Keep in mind, these guys weren't being paid enough to do calculations on each part of their manuscripts, especially when they only had slide rules and adding machines.

Re freddiemac's question "Can you provide any evidence that Hamilton proposed a monarchy?"

----------------
From James Madison's "Notes on the Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787":

1) Hamilton's proposal on June 18, 1787:

a)
"In his private opinion he [Hamilton] had no scruple in declaring, supported as he was
by the opinions of so many of the wise & good, that the British Govt. was the best in the world: and that he doubted much whether any thing short of it would do in America. " (Just past marker for footnote FN5 )

b)
"As to the Executive, it seemed to be admitted that no good one could be established on Republican principles. Was not this giving up the merits of the question: for can there be a good Govt. without a good Executive. The English model was the only good one on this subject.

The Hereditary interest of the King was so interwoven with that of the Nation, and his personal emoluments so great, that he was placed
above the danger of being corrupted from abroad-and at the same time was both sufficiently independent and sufficiently controuled, to answer the purpose of the institution at home."

c) "Let the Executive also be for life. He[Hamilton] appealed to the feelings of the members present whether a term of seven years, would induce the sacrifices of private affairs
which an acceptance of public trust would require, so so as to ensure the services of
the best Citizens ...

...It will be objected probably, that such an Executive will be an elective Monarch, and will give birth to the tumults which characterize that
form of Govt. He wd. reply that Monarch is an indefinite term. It marks not either the degree or duration of power. If this Executive Magistrate wd. be a monarch for
life-the other propd. by the Report from the Comtte of the whole, wd. be a monarch
for seven years. "

Ref: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/debates/618.htm

2) Farther down, in his enumeration of the powers of his Executive, Hamilton made the same
proposal he had made days earliers -- that the Executive would have an absolute VETO over
all laws passed by the Legislature and over carrying out laws which had been enacted. NOTE
that the VETO would be ABSOLUTE -- not subject to being overturned by vote of the Legislature.

So, you're saying you'd have preferred Jefferson's vision of a more rural, agrarian society to have succeeded, Don? I mean, it kinda sorta did in the South for a while, and then Dixie found itself overwhelmed by a more populous, better equipped North. Grant & Co. were able to win becuase attrition worked in the North's favor. Oh yeah, we used immigrants for that, too. They were called the Irish.

As for blaming Wall Street for the Depression, you forget about Smoot-Hawley and its repurcussions. Free(-er) trade tends to be more conducive to a stable, more peaceful world.

Re freddiemac's comment "So whatever you may allege happened in secret, in print he was a champion of democracy (see the Federalist papers)."
-----------
Hamilton argued AGAINST adoption of the Bill of Rights on the grounds they were unnecessary --because the new government would be constrained to its enumerated powers.

AFTER the Constitution was adopted,George Washington was elected, and Hamilton joined his Cabinet, Hamilton THEN promoted an extremely EXPANSIVE argument of the Executive's powers --
that the President had IMPLICIT power to do whatever he felt was necessary to carry out his
functions.

A very dishonest bait and switch.

This country would be far better off today if Congressman Aedanus Burke had followed his initial
instinct and blown Hamilton's brains out in 1789 --instead of leaving the job for Aaron Burr to do 15 years later.

PS I went to the University founded by Thomas Jefferson -- who a few mild disagreements with Hamilton. Jefferson joined with James Madison in founding the Democratic Party as a result. And it was Jefferson --NOT Hamilton --who brought Aaron Burr's secession plot to heel.

Re Shawn's comment "So, you're saying you'd have preferred Jefferson's vision of a more rural, agrarian society to have succeeded, Don? "
---------
Jefferson's vision was that a REPUBLIC could only succeed in the long run if the citizens were INDEPENDENT businessmen or farmers -- i.e., could earn their living independent of employment by wealthy merchants. Small farmers were only one way of accomplishing that.

Jefferson made the point to James Madison --in letters from France -- that most citizens under Hamilton's economic regime would be little more than serfs. That they could NOT exercise their rights as citizens because they would be subject to ECONOMIC intimidation by those wealthy men on whom they depended for their families livelihood.

Look at the extensive number of economic whores we have in public life and tell me Jefferson was wrong. We are not a Republic --we are a corrupt oligarchy in which most fear to do anything other than adher to the political principle of "He whose bread I eat -- his song I sing".

Re freddiemac's comment "Secondly, to blame Wall Street financiers for the Great Depression is absurd. One could make far more plausible theories that the French government's ruination of the German economy had more effect on the global downturn."
-------------
Oh, come on. Read your history. The US stock bubble in the 1925-1929 period was caused by JP Morgan pressuring Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Strong into driving US interest rates into the floor.

They did that in order to drive up the value of the British pound -- part of a coordinated effort with their London House to convince the BRitish government to base the pound on the gold standard.

JP Morgan's advocacy for the Gold Standard was to preempt government regulation of monetary policy in the manner it's done today. They didn't want the rabble involved in their business.

Plus the Great Depression was amplified by the massive imbalance that had developed in US supply vs demand. Economic predation by Wall Street had resulted in a massive concentration of wealth protected by political corruption. The people who had money didn't need to buy more goods -- they already lived very lavish lifestyles. The people who did want to buy goods did not have the money to do so. See John Kenneth Galbraith on the subject.

In Caves of Steel the Earth's surface (except for the enclosed megacities) was empty. The reasons for this were many (including mankinds fear/hatred of the robots that worked the countryside). But that fact makes his setting a little more plausible.

If you take the top 50 most populated American cities (and the implication is that the number of megacities was much smaller than that), the summed population of those cities is only 46 million (data here: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html). So take all the other American people, and cram them into those 50 cities, and now you've got cities about 7-8 times as big/dense.

This country would be far better off today if Congressman Aedanus Burke had followed his initial instinct and blown Hamilton's brains out in 1789 --instead of leaving the job for Aaron Burr to do 15 years later.

I spend most of my time in a country where this is how a lot of political disputes are settled. It's not pretty and it doesn't make anyone "better off." Certainly it's not a promising way to settle disagreements when you're attempting to found a new country.

Similarly, trafficking in imagery of rottenness, disease, parasitism, etc., and waxing hopeful that the nation's largest city might be depopulated by some future catastrophe, has little to do with constructive discussion. It's the language of totalitarian demagogues. For example:

"...the cleansing of Russia's soil of all harmful insects, of thieving fleas, bedbugs--the rich, and so on."
--Lenin

"...out of these crevices are crawling, like cockroaches, parasites upon society..."
--Trotsky

Sound like anyone in this thread?

If you're truly a Jeffersonian, as opposed to a Leninist-Trotskyist advocate of class-based genocide, consider the possibility that you'd be better off using Jeffersonian rhetoric, rather than fulminating like a half-assed Soviet commissar.

nerd alert!!! nerd alert!!!

"This is the most retarded comnets argument of all time."

-Louis XVIII

I must admit that Lenin, Trotsky, and all their friends really had quite a way with words. They make our current vituperative media pundits seem like the flowery rhetoricians of the Court of the Sun King in comparison.

All those crazy warmongering neocons may *think* that they're Trotsky's modern-day heirs, but I suspect that they would quickly discover the difference if they happened to encounter a *real* Trotsky...

Re JB's comment "If you're truly a Jeffersonian, as opposed to a Leninist-Trotskyist advocate of class-based genocide, consider the possibility that you'd be better off using Jeffersonian rhetoric, rather than fulminating like a half-assed Soviet commissar. "
-------------------

1) You mean Thomas Jefferson quotes like this??

a) ""My own affections have been deeply wounded by some of the martyrs to this cause, but rather than it should have failed I would have seen half the earth desolated; were there but an Adam and an Eve left in every country, and left free, it would be better than as it now is."
--Thomas Jefferson to William Short, 1793. ME 9:10


b) "A first attempt to recover the right of self-government may fail, so may a second, ... To attain all this, however, rivers of blood must yet flow, and years of desolation pass over; yet the object is worth rivers of blood and years of desolation.
For what inheritance so valuable can man leave to his posterity?"
--Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1823. ME 15:465

Ref: http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/

c) And Timothy McVeigh's favorite:

"the tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants"
Ref: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jefffed.html
2) You guys don't get out very much, do you??

Several hours, half-a-dozen posts, dozens of quotes, and hundreds of words - and still no explanation from the Don Williams persona of where his lives, what he does for a living, or what his direct experience with farming or other rural occupation is. Surprised?

Cranky

Heh heh heh. Here's a bone for Cranky to chew on.

In the trailer for Will Smith's "I Am Legend" it shows Will harvesting corn. If it is hybrid corn -- which is what is almost 100 percent grown today by both commercial farms and home gardeners, then Will is fucked.

Because hybrid corn does not reproduce itself well -- i.e., its seeds do not breed true from generation to generation. Not a problem so long as Burpees and other seed companies can ship a new supply of seeds to you from across the USA each spring. But a big problem in TEOTWAWKI (The End Of The World As We Know It).

Will , of course , could be growing nonhybrid aka heirloom corn -- the kind grown from the colonial times up to World War II. But then Will is probably also fucked. Because the tall , high cornstalks in his garden would have to be a dent corn variety like Bloody Butcher or Reid's Yellow Dent -- varieties mostly grown in the South or Midwest. Dent corn is not particularly well suited for the Northeast's short growing season and wet climate -- although it can work under modern conditions.

Less so under TEOTWAWKI -- because dent corn requires good, well-fertilized soil. Dent also sucks up large amounts of fertilizer from the soil. Not a problem if you have a herd of horses or mules to fertilize the field. But I didn't see such a herd with Will --maybe the lion ate them.

Somehow I doubt Manhattan is overflowing with agricultural supply warehouses with stacks of fertilizer. So I would expect Will's corn to not be so green and healthy looking --I would expect more yellow tinged leaves and drooping stalks.

Probably the best corn for Will is the old flint corn grown by the northeast Indian tribes. But is tends to only be 5 feet high. It can handle
the rot and mold associated with the Northeast humid climate , poor soils and its seeds can be used from generation to generation (i.e. the seeds you harvest from stalks this fall can be planted next spring.) Only thing is , I know of no supply of the rare flint or dent heirloom corn seeds in New York City. Closest supply is probably a source in western Pennsylvania -- although "Indian corn" sold for Thanksgiving displays might work.

In real life, of course, the European corn borer would already have had Will's garden for a snack.

What may be the greatest ecological disaster in US history took place as the result of the planting of wheat in the Great Plains. Buffalo grass had served the Indians well for centuries. Buffalo grazed on the grass, Native Americans hunted buffalo and used them for food, clothing and shelter.

Homesteading white settlers leaving Eastern cities dug up the buffalo grass, planted wheat and when it wasn't profitable, let the land turn to dust during the drought years of the '20's and '30's.

This, by the way, had nothing to do with New York.

When I was a little kid my great-grandma would tell me Arkansas was the only state in the union that didn't need anyone else. They were self-sufficient. They had oil and diamonds and corn and..I don't remember all of it but Arkansas needed to be it's own country.

The older I got (like twelve), and the more I saw of Arkansas, the more this all seemed a bit far fetched. It also seemed a bit implausible that not only would someone leave this land of milk and honey, but their entire extended family would come with them like refugees to the awful industrial midwest.

Grow up, folks.

In the first Foundation books, Asimov portrayed Trantor as a dense ecumenopolis along the "Coruscant" model, with the whole planet looking like downtown Hong Kong, but in later books, like "Prelude to the Foundation," he revises matters a bit to portray Trantor as being fully inhabited, without any uninhabited wilderness areas, but mostly at a sort of suburban population density, with only a few more concentrated areas.

So Don, I take you you agree with Jefferson's crazier comments? You must if you think the destruction of New York would be good for anyone.I can guarantee you, no matter what stupid, cliche ridden beliefs you have about NY, if it were ever to be destroyed in the manner you've hoped for several times in this thread, you would end up suffering too.

Another instance of sci-fi underestimating the population needed to be taken seriously: in Star Trek: TNG and DS9, the Cardassian occupation of Bajor was supposed to be really horrible, because it killed 10 million Bajorans over 50 years (through forced labor, starvation, etc). If Bajor is presumably an Earth-sized space-age planet with a population in the billions, though (even if we suppose the low billions) that doesn't make Cardassian rule look so bad. They may not have been spectacularly enlightened, but those numbers don't sound as bad proportional to time or population as the British in India or Ireland, let alone the Nazi Germans or Japanese to whom the Cardassians are presumably supposed to allude.

Those Jefferson quotations are "pay any price, bear any burden" odes to the necessity of fighting wars in defense of human liberty. The Leninist-Trotskyist rhetorical tradition you're continuing, on the other hand, uses dehumanizing imagery to justify the murder of specific classes of people.

I've seen the practical results when people take that kind of language seriously. It's sad, horrifying and disgusting. I'm not commenting on the underlying philosophy you seem to be advocating, just on your Bolshevik approach to social and political change and the inexplicably angry and hateful ways you've chosen to express yourself.

It's unfortunate, because agrarianism, anti-Federalism, and suspicion of large corporations are all entirely respectable ideas that can be debated calmly and in good faith. Maybe you see such a hostile world because you choose to engage it in such a hostile way.

A FAR better sci-fi writer than Isaac Asimov -- Poul Anderson -- once noted that human societies are determined by their economic systems. Densely populated, highly complex megacomplexs under constant threat of breakdown inevitably support oppressive , authoritarian governments.

That's why there will not be an American Revolution in CHina -- the human toll would be too great.

As Poul Anderson noted -- free enterprise (and freedom ) -- require elbow room.

By its very nature, New York City has always been a primary exponent of tyranny in American politics. It was a comfortable haven for the British forces during the Revolution and its merchants a primary force behind Lincoln's drive to scrape the Ninth and Tenth Amendments of the Bill of Rights so that they could build national empires heedless of any objections from the US population or the state legislations.

In the present day, Senator Chuck Schumer was the driving force behind efforts to scrape the Second Amendment --so that disarmed Americans would be powerless to resist Dick Cheney's Department of Homeland Security and Attorney General Gonzales' advocacy of torture and imprisonment without trial.

Indeed, New York City's Rudi Giuliani laid out the entire template for the Bush Administration during his term as NYC Mayor. Or ,as they say in NYC when sodomizing Afro-Americans with toilet plungers -- "It's Giuliani Time".

And who can forget NYC's newspaper -- the New York Times -- pushing for Bush's imperialist adventures with all those Judith Miller's articles telling America of the evil Saddam's awful Weapons of Mass Destruction.

George Bush has sold his destruction of the Bill of Rights on the grounds that his acts are needed lest terrorists one day explode a nuclear bomb in New York City.

To which I ask -- why should the rest of the country give a shit?

Of course, one can understand the con the New York Times has been running on the rest of the country -- people get desperate when they feel crosshairs on their forehead.

By the way, did it ever occur to any of you New Yorkers to ask what was in the World Trade Towers? To look at the some of the tenants?

Hell of an immune reaction.

PS
The 911 honeymoon is over.

NYC does have one good export -- the Jerry Seinfeld Show.

I've always wondered what it would be like to play a character on that show in a cameo -- say, as a visiting distant cousin from Virginia.

> A FAR better sci-fi writer than Isaac Asimov --
> Poul Anderson -- once noted that human societies
> are determined by their economic systems. Densely
> populated, highly complex megacomplexs under
> constant threat of breakdown inevitably support
> oppressive , authoritarian governments.

Now we know for a fact Don Williams has never lived in a small town - there is no more authoritarian power on earth than the trio of a small town mayor, chief of police, and county judge backed up by the hundreds of spying eyes of the neighbors and other "helpful" busybodies.

Cranky

The Chinese can't have a revolution because the human cost would be too high? Dude. That's not even bad speculation. That's bad historical observation, considering that China has, over the past two centuries, had several revolutions (failed and successful) that involved enormous human costs. Perhaps you meant China will never be a democratic society? Well, admittedly, the last revolution kicked China's dubious best hope for democracy, the KMT, to Taiwan, but Taiwan seems to have established a democracy with five times the average population density of China. If China's population density prevents democracy there, why doesn't Taiwan's population density prevent a fortiori there?

Oh my! Isaac Asimov focus in population growth, not mathematical perfection. So, the book is amazing and intelligent, despite that detail.

Oh my! Isaac Asimov focus in population growth, not mathematical perfection. So, the book is amazing and intelligent, despite that detail.


Comments closed December 13, 2007.

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